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Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I have two points for you, Martel, if you've the time, since you conveniently ignored one of them twice now.

1) Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?

2) So are you worried about the eldar or not? If you're worried about them, and you don't want to field Tacticals and Scouts, then don't - nothing is mandatory. If you aren't worried about them, then you sure do a lot of complaining.

That precious Objective Secured that you refuse to relent (yet only take two 5-man tac squads...) is what's killing you more than Tacs sucking.

Well, the init 5 formation requires troops as well.

"Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?"

I asked you if marines could still make bikers troops. I don't have the new codex, only 6th ed. If so, maybe grav biker troops.

One formation requires troops - you don't even need to have formations; hell, you need not even be battleforged!

And marines can still make bikers troops, but they won't catch the scatbikes - the scatbikes outrange them by literally twice as much, out-turbo-boost them by two feet, and have an assault jump of 2d6". Why would grav bikers be in any better position to handle them than regular bikers, or plasma bikers, or Imperial Guardsmen?

Just brainstorming. In general, there are certainly no troops that match up to scatterbikes. Therefore, I'd prefer to pay as little for my troops as possible since none of them are really up to snuff.

Except they are (!) up to snuff, against everything except Eldar.

Look, what you're doing is comparing your penis length to the height of the Empire State Building and feeling inadequate, when every man around you has sort of accepted that the Empire State Building might be just a bit bigger than everyone's penis!

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Also, marines can't blitz much of anything at 36". And scatterbikes rarely have any reason to get any closer.

"And oddly enough the Tacs where, until the Primarch emerged, the ones I was most scared of."

Not not exactly wowing me with your strategic acumen here. Tacs are a joke. Even for BA. Especially with LotD on the field. They ignore cover and bounce your heavy weapons.

Okay, maybe I tell a lie: The Vindicators where my first big worry. The Tacticals came close after them though, especially after I killed two of the Vindicators with my tanks and my Tank Destroyer.
Anyway, I am not the one whining about how bad an already incredibly good and under priced basic troops choice is.

I just don't understand your logic. Why do you fear them more than two squads of LotD when you have 5+ armor on your dudes? Why do you fear Vindicators? They are generally awful and get aced on their side armor.

Vindicators in a Linebreaker. a 10" pieplate that ignores cover. It cost me a lot of Infantry.

The LotD I didnt know about until they hit but they where only in small 5 man sections and died to amassed fire within a couple of turns. The Tac sections though where mobile. They could and would rape my army if they got close. Sure they dont ignore my Cover save.... But there are more of them and they can bolter to death my Veteran sections within a turn and Krak my tanks into the abyss.

Isn't that the formation where if you take out one Vindicator they can't do the 10" pie plate? So you can't get a shaken once through AV 13?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I have two points for you, Martel, if you've the time, since you conveniently ignored one of them twice now.

1) Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?

2) So are you worried about the eldar or not? If you're worried about them, and you don't want to field Tacticals and Scouts, then don't - nothing is mandatory. If you aren't worried about them, then you sure do a lot of complaining.

That precious Objective Secured that you refuse to relent (yet only take two 5-man tac squads...) is what's killing you more than Tacs sucking.

Well, the init 5 formation requires troops as well.

"Are there any troops in the game that can compete with Scatbikes, even from Forge World or 30k?"

I asked you if marines could still make bikers troops. I don't have the new codex, only 6th ed. If so, maybe grav biker troops.

One formation requires troops - you don't even need to have formations; hell, you need not even be battleforged!

And marines can still make bikers troops, but they won't catch the scatbikes - the scatbikes outrange them by literally twice as much, out-turbo-boost them by two feet, and have an assault jump of 2d6". Why would grav bikers be in any better position to handle them than regular bikers, or plasma bikers, or Imperial Guardsmen?

Just brainstorming. In general, there are certainly no troops that match up to scatterbikes. Therefore, I'd prefer to pay as little for my troops as possible since none of them are really up to snuff.

Except they are (!) up to snuff, against everything except Eldar.

Look, what you're doing is comparing your penis length to the height of the Empire State Building and feeling inadequate, when every man around you has sort of accepted that the Empire State Building might be just a bit bigger than everyone's penis!

Maybe. I haven't seen tacs do much since 4th. I have no problem killing 30, 40 or even 60 tac marines with BA. They can't stop me from getting close Tau/Eldar/IG can and they can't hide from assault. Gladius is a disaster because of free metul bawkses, though.

To the Boltgun, they die twice as fast.
To Gauss they die twice as fast.
To the Lasgun, they die more than twice as fast.
To SD weapons they die just as fast.

Anything S4 AP5-, its twice as fast.
Anything S3 AP4 or worse, its more than twice as fast.
Its less than twice as fast when hit with anti-tank weapons, sure.

"Twice as" wasn't 100% accurate, but is a good summary.

Bharring wrote:
To the Boltgun, they die twice as fast.
To Gauss they die twice as fast.
To the Lasgun, they die more than twice as fast.
To SD weapons they die just as fast.

Anything S4 AP5-, its twice as fast.
Anything S3 AP4 or worse, its more than twice as fast.
Its less than twice as fast when hit with anti-tank weapons, sure.

"Twice as" wasn't 100% accurate, but is a good summary.

If you say so. If tac are SOOO good then, why are marines relying so much on invis cent stars? Also, how about S6 AP6? It's a weapon profile I see so much, after all.

Bharring wrote:
-I wasn't sure if CSM could take 2 at 5 or 10. Its good to know, but they could take a CombiPlas instead. I even went so far to *explicitly state that*.

And then asked if your math was wrong.
If you weren't sure, you could have ran the math for both, you chose not to. You took the option that proved your point and ran with it. You even stated, explicitly, that this made marines better than DAs against termies.
You then later went on to say that CSM equal DA against all targets. They don't.
This is misleading.
I'm not including the Exarch having BS 5 because honestly, I can't recall if he does. It helps my point if he does, so I'm not including it until I'm sure.

Bharring wrote:

-Battle Focusing towards is always an option. But leaves you in assault threat range. As it takes only 3 CSM to make it into CC to beat 10DAs, I'd say that's a scary proposition. Usually they need to BF away.

Again, this is misleading.
While 18 is technically within the 2d6 assault range, its extremely rare that someone will roll that distance (move 6" +2d6 charge).
Most players won't even go for it, and will instead move up and rapid fire. After this, the eldar player just scoots back and shoots over and over until the marine player dies. Which will be roughly 2.4 rounds, earning their points back.
Being able to start combat and stay out of rapid fire range is a huge advantage.

Bharring wrote:

-If I threw in 2 more DAs, I'd have to redo the numbers for the CSM to account for the PGs. Not a huge difference against GEQ, but I was more familiar with the numbers as is.

The problem here is that you randomly add 30 points to the marines without adding to the DA. These thirty points sometimes help and sometimes hurt the marines, and you add them only when it helps you, but you NEVER give an extra 30 points to the DA.
Oh, except that one time when things still worked out in your favor due to special weapon saturation.
Against 3+, 4+, 2+ saves, you add 2 plasma guns.
Against 5+, you don't.
Stick to a build. Don't change it to suite your purposes, it makes it seem like you need to list tailor. If you could list tailor, marines would be way better.

Bharring wrote:

In another thread a while back, I showed that, for equal points of DAs and CSM, assuming 5+ cover, and everything else in CSM favor (stay out of Rapid Fire, no Assault, infinite space, etc), the DAs need 10 turns to push the CSM. If you can't win in 10 turns in a 5-7 turn game, something is wrong.

20 shots, 13.2 wounds, 4.4 wounds/ 2.2 rending, 1.47+ 0.96 ~2.5 kills a turn.
So 4 turns to kill a squad of CSM.
If you meant CC, then your point is useless since marines will never reach CC against eldar, and eldar don't want to charge marines.

Bharring wrote:

DAs do have better firepower in some situations. Having half the defenses for the same points means they should.

So far its looking like nearly every single situation barring one weird one.
They also can get an invul in combat, and their champ is no slouch in a fight with his good invul save. I imagine in rare instances, they are better than marines in CC, though it would take an enemy like termies to make this true.

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
To the Boltgun, they die twice as fast.
To Gauss they die twice as fast.
To the Lasgun, they die more than twice as fast.
To SD weapons they die just as fast.

Anything S4 AP5-, its twice as fast.
Anything S3 AP4 or worse, its more than twice as fast.
Its less than twice as fast when hit with anti-tank weapons, sure.

"Twice as" wasn't 100% accurate, but is a good summary.

If you say so. If tac are SOOO good then, why are marines relying so much on invis cent stars? Also, how about S6 AP6? It's a weapon profile I see so much, after all.

Exactly 0 marine players here in my local meta use invisible cent-stars, out of around 20.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
To the Boltgun, they die twice as fast.
To Gauss they die twice as fast.
To the Lasgun, they die more than twice as fast.
To SD weapons they die just as fast.

Anything S4 AP5-, its twice as fast.
Anything S3 AP4 or worse, its more than twice as fast.
Its less than twice as fast when hit with anti-tank weapons, sure.

"Twice as" wasn't 100% accurate, but is a good summary.

If you say so. If tac are SOOO good then, why are marines relying so much on invis cent stars? Also, how about S6 AP6? It's a weapon profile I see so much, after all.

Exactly 0 marine players here in my local meta use invisible cent-stars, out of around 20.

I haven't played against a vanilla list without one in a long, long time. I hate that bastard who chooses his powers. Except for the Skyhammer lists. And even those still sometimes have one.

Because invis cent stars are broken.

DAs do only die 33% faster than Tac Marines to Scatter Bikers. On the flip side, though, they are even worse at shooting back.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
To the Boltgun, they die twice as fast.
To Gauss they die twice as fast.
To the Lasgun, they die more than twice as fast.
To SD weapons they die just as fast.

Anything S4 AP5-, its twice as fast.
Anything S3 AP4 or worse, its more than twice as fast.
Its less than twice as fast when hit with anti-tank weapons, sure.

"Twice as" wasn't 100% accurate, but is a good summary.

If you say so. If tac are SOOO good then, why are marines relying so much on invis cent stars? Also, how about S6 AP6? It's a weapon profile I see so much, after all.

Exactly 0 marine players here in my local meta use invisible cent-stars, out of around 20.

I haven't played against a vanilla list without one in a long, long time. I hate that bastard who chooses his powers. Except for the Skyhammer lists. And even those still sometimes have one.

Yes, yes, yes. I know your meta is like the Nuclear Reactor of 40k, where you either bring an atomic bomb to the store or you lose.

But try not to ruin it for the rest of us by making everything in the game an atomic bomb so that it is "balanced."

Bharring wrote:
Because invis cent stars are broken.

DAs do only die 33% faster than Tac Marines to Scatter Bikers. On the flip side, though, they are even worse at shooting back.

See a theme here? What we are considering "worth taking" you are considering "broken". It's all just nomenclature games. See? Let's apply this to BA. You would say there is nothing broken in C:BA. We would say there is nothing worth taking in C:BA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
To the Boltgun, they die twice as fast.
To Gauss they die twice as fast.
To the Lasgun, they die more than twice as fast.
To SD weapons they die just as fast.

Anything S4 AP5-, its twice as fast.
Anything S3 AP4 or worse, its more than twice as fast.
Its less than twice as fast when hit with anti-tank weapons, sure.

"Twice as" wasn't 100% accurate, but is a good summary.

If you say so. If tac are SOOO good then, why are marines relying so much on invis cent stars? Also, how about S6 AP6? It's a weapon profile I see so much, after all.

Exactly 0 marine players here in my local meta use invisible cent-stars, out of around 20.

I haven't played against a vanilla list without one in a long, long time. I hate that bastard who chooses his powers. Except for the Skyhammer lists. And even those still sometimes have one.

Yes, yes, yes. I know your meta is like the Nuclear Reactor of 40k, where you either bring an atomic bomb to the store or you lose.

But try not to ruin it for the rest of us by making everything in the game an atomic bomb so that it is "balanced."

If everything is broken, nothing is, right? Making everything an A-bomb would actually be an improvement for balance in 40K.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let's flip this around a bit. One poster did recommend some tactics, but what does the field here DO with tacs against Orks? Pentaflyrant? Scatterbike/WK? TriRiptide? BA? GK? In my experience, the answer is shoot ineffectively and give up lots of points.

Martel732 wrote:
If everything is broken, nothing is, right? Making everything an A-bomb would actually be an improvement for balance in 40K.

Right, but some of us like it the way it is, or would rather keep it the way it was by nerfing the Eldar, rather than buffing everything to levels that transcend sanity.

Like, literally when eldar dropped, everyone was either like "GW is off its meds, this is a typo, or WHAT THE feth HOW DID THIS HAPPEN"

and now you want to make every single unit cause that reaction in people...

it would kill the game overnight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Let's flip this around a bit. One poster did recommend some tactics, but what does the field here DO with tacs against Orks? Pentaflyrant? Scatterbike/WK? TriRiptide? BA? GK? In my experience, the answer is shoot ineffectively and give up lots of points.

Actually, perhaps unsurprisingly, the answer is not play them.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If everything is broken, nothing is, right? Making everything an A-bomb would actually be an improvement for balance in 40K.

Right, but some of us like it the way it is, or would rather keep it the way it was by nerfing the Eldar, rather than buffing everything to levels that transcend sanity.

Like, literally when eldar dropped, everyone was either like "GW is off its meds, this is a typo, or WHAT THE feth HOW DID THIS HAPPEN"

and now you want to make every single unit cause that reaction in people...

it would kill the game overnight.

If Eldar/Skyhammer/Decurion hasn't killed it, making everyone Eldar/Skyhammer/Decurion certainly won't. Know what's killing it? Having 8000+ pts of basically useless BA.

Martel732- Have you ever fielded a xenos army? Honest question because I get the impression you only pilot marines. Also I gotta agree with the above, why even compare windriders to anything else in the game? Its pointless.

On the topic of windriders for just a sec longer, anyone who has had success against them (or uses them) knows that you MUST force jink. Nothing will win a firepower exchange unless they can do that. And preferably with MSU. But to bring that back around, thats why grav bikers are a good counter to windriders. They also lose to assaults but that requires similar speed and again extreme MSU.

Anywa 3+ saves are good whatever its on. People arguing against 3+ must not have played other factions without it much. Or to put it another way its no coincidence that the top tier armies have abundant meq access.

By the same token those that say things like atsknf or krak doesn't matter must not be using these to full potential. Krak is a great tool against armour (better in ages past but still). When facing a mechanized list they become a whole army of S6 bastards. Serously I used to run shrike hammernators plus firebase with the rest being scouts. It was incredibly good once I figured out how to wield them.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If everything is broken, nothing is, right? Making everything an A-bomb would actually be an improvement for balance in 40K.

Right, but some of us like it the way it is, or would rather keep it the way it was by nerfing the Eldar, rather than buffing everything to levels that transcend sanity.

Like, literally when eldar dropped, everyone was either like "GW is off its meds, this is a typo, or WHAT THE feth HOW DID THIS HAPPEN"

and now you want to make every single unit cause that reaction in people...

it would kill the game overnight.

If Eldar/Skyhammer/Decurion hasn't killed it making everyone Eldar/Skyhammer/Decurion certainly won't. Know what's killing it? Having 8000+ pts of basically useless BA.

They're not useless if you find sane opponents. I wish I could invite you here to Harrisburg, PA and show you how we play.

dominuschao wrote:
Martel732- Have you ever fielded a xenos army? Honest question because I get the impression you only pilot marines. Also I gotta agree with the above, why even compare windriders to anything else in the game? Its pointless.

On the topic of windriders for just a sec longer, anyone who has had success against them (or uses them) knows that you MUST force jink. Nothing will win a firepower exchange unless they can do that. And preferably with MSU. But to bring that back around, thats why grav bikers are a good counter to windriders. They also lose to assaults but that requires similar speed and again extreme MSU.

Anywa 3+ saves are good whatever its on. People arguing against 3+ must not have played other factions without it much. Or to put it another way its no coincidence that the top tier armies have abundant meq access.

By the same token those that say things like atsknf or krak doesn't matter must not be using these to full potential. Krak is a great tool against armour (better in ages past but still). When facing a mechanized list they become a whole army of S6 bastards. Serously I used to run shrike hammernators plus firebase with the rest being scouts. It was incredibly good once I figured out how to wield them.

I've list swapped many times. I honestly don't care for the DE at all, but I have a good record vs BA with Xenos. The Tau are extremely formulaic to play with, I might add. Effective, but methodical to the extreme.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
If everything is broken, nothing is, right? Making everything an A-bomb would actually be an improvement for balance in 40K.

Right, but some of us like it the way it is, or would rather keep it the way it was by nerfing the Eldar, rather than buffing everything to levels that transcend sanity.

Like, literally when eldar dropped, everyone was either like "GW is off its meds, this is a typo, or WHAT THE feth HOW DID THIS HAPPEN"

and now you want to make every single unit cause that reaction in people...

it would kill the game overnight.

If Eldar/Skyhammer/Decurion hasn't killed it making everyone Eldar/Skyhammer/Decurion certainly won't. Know what's killing it? Having 8000+ pts of basically useless BA.

They're not useless if you find sane opponents. I wish I could invite you here to Harrisburg, PA and show you how we play.

Seriously dude, most casual lists have a distinct advantage over the giant pile of fail that is BA. I can't even find of a single set up with BA that is truly strong. Trust me, I've tried. And that's shooting for strong, not overpowered. I can spend all my HQ slots giving my guys FNP and am still inferior at soaking damage to say, Necrons. And that means giving up all pskyers, etc. It's just awful. This is basically how I know 3+ or even 3+ FNP doesn't really cut it. You need over components, which BA don't have.

CSM beat DAs if they get into Rapid Fire. By a lot. So while they could risk charging, moving up to rapid fire instead is enough for them to beat DAs.

Stick to a build? So you want a squad of CSM to beat - or at least equal - DAs with the same build when shooting any target? While being massively better in a lot of other areas?

Seriously, I didn't think anyone would be deluded enough to think a PG squad should excel at killing GEQs.

If I had intended to be misleading in the way you presume, logically, wouldn't I have run 2xPlas 1xCombi numbers instead? I split the difference between counting Combi or not and having 2 @ 5.

If DAs shot CSMs unmolested all game, sure, they could wipe them out. More realistically, though, the two sides grind each other down. With a 5+ cover, and never even getting into Rapid Fire range, CSM still kill most of the DAs before the last one is killed on turn 10. That's 10 turns of CSMs going virtually anywhere they want, claiming any objective they want.

The Exarch is a slouch in combat. 2 S3 AP- attacks. How are you afraid of that? About a 10% chance to kill the Sarge? Giving him a CC weapon is both expensive, and cuts his shooting. And then its still base S3.

"That's 10 turns of CSMs going virtually anywhere they want, claiming any objective they want.
"

There are no CSM because the rest of the Eldar army already killed them.

I've list swapped many times. I honestly don't care for the DE at all, but I have a good record vs BA with Xenos. The Tau are extremely formulaic to play with, I might add. Effective, but methodical to the extreme.

Ah gotcha just curious. Sometimes changing factions brings success just to break the mold. Army swap aint quite the same IMO but whatever. That said i see your meta sucks because it pushes out a lot of otherwise viable options. Plus regarding BAs they are literally the worst codex [or on par] in the game right now. Hell I play dark eldar I'm there with you. Explodes will take half a unit reliably and my rides die to bolter fire. But heres the thing, I know I can't beat everyone but I can tool up VERY well to be certain players worst nightmare. When were playing no holds barred (which we don't always, gets old..) then I make sure my targets are bikes and infantry and in return I near auto lose to certain mechanized forces.


On centstar as someone who does run variations of centstars from time to time I can say its very strong but has plenty of bad matches. It ain't what it was 6 months ago for sure. It mostly preys on high value targets which are getting rarer.

"Plus regarding BAs they are literally the worst codex [or on par] in the game right now."

This shouldn't be possible if 3+ is so great. But it is possible. And 3+ is not that great.

There is no possibility that I get another army in this game. I'd buy centurions if BA could get them, but I'm not shelling out for an FOC from another list.

I think the problem is largely marine damage output is so bad. The standard bolter is kind of a joke, and all bolt weapons need a buff of some kind. A special rule of their own similar to gauss and bladestorm. Wounds causing -1 save (including cover and invuln) would do alot.. Or counting the enemy as -1 T even. I mean, they're giant explosive charged ballistic shells, FFS! They should have something unique about them.

Furthermore their access to special weapons and the points they pay for them are prohibitive. Plasma gun should be 8-10 pts. Flamer should be 3-5. Melta gun can stay, though. They need to be able to take 5 per 10, or 3 otherwise. . As it is now, they can't kill anything noteworthy and the return fire that they left on the board will vapourise them.

This is a pretty heated thread. I'd just like to remind everyone that power creep is to blame for the tactical squad being pointless. GW is the real culprit here. And everyone who supports the new hotness all the time, you're voting for gw to continue this with your wallet.

Honestly though... The entire balance of the fething game is bad. Some units just suck and gw doesnt seem too concerned with fixing this mess.

Bharring wrote:
So, the only state in which Tacs are balanced is when they are the most OP option?

That's pretty much what people seem to want.

I think some people are splitting hairs and straw manning when a lot of people are saying the same thing. Your standard foot slogging guy having 3+ armor IS good.
However only bringing the offense to kill 10-20% of an enemy army per turn while they kill 30-40% of yours through superior weapons is where marines find their failing. They can soak up shooting decently well with power armor, yes. They can't soak up enough to matter over 5 turns though.

They also work similarly to av11 vehicles. Crappy when few in number, good when oversaturated. That's part of what makes battleco so good. Everything that would vaporize the men needs to be hitting obsec pods and rhinos/razors, and the rest of the guns can't put down all the power armor guys fast enough.

Outside of battle company, it's just not affordable to hit that same oversaturation point against competitive lists. The boys and their rides just cost too much, mainly due to their "generalist tax" in a game where the more point-efficient specialists rule. So BA for example, are out in the cold right now unless you wanted to rent some pods.

I would recommend that any marine list that isn't battle co be taking scouts for troops. Point discount and deployment tricks are well worth losing that point of armor. Or bikes of course, given that t5 on 3+ With jink option is a very good multiplier to durability, and their offense is much higher with easy access (2 and a combi in 3 man) to specials.

This shouldn't be possible if 3+ is so great. But it is possible. And 3+ is not that great.

There is no possibility that I get another army in this game. I'd buy centurions if BA could get them, but I'm not shelling out for an FOC from another list.

Honestly then your screwed. Its like you play in an ITC event every day but you can't bring the tools.

niv-mizzet- nicely put.

niv-mizzet wrote:
I think some people are splitting hairs and straw manning when a lot of people are saying the same thing. Your standard foot slogging guy having 3+ armor IS good.
However only bringing the offense to kill 10-20% of an enemy army per turn while they kill 30-40% of yours through superior weapons is where marines find their failing. They can soak up shooting decently well with power armor, yes. They can't soak up enough to matter over 5 turns though.

They also work similarly to av11 vehicles. Crappy when few in number, good when oversaturated. That's part of what makes battleco so good. Everything that would vaporize the men needs to be hitting obsec pods and rhinos/razors, and the rest of the guns can't put down all the power armor guys fast enough.

Outside of battle company, it's just not affordable to hit that same oversaturation point against competitive lists. The boys and their rides just cost too much, mainly due to their "generalist tax" in a game where the more point-efficient specialists rule. So BA for example, are out in the cold right now unless you wanted to rent some pods.

I would recommend that any marine list that isn't battle co be taking scouts for troops. Point discount and deployment tricks are well worth losing that point of armor. Or bikes of course, given that t5 on 3+ With jink option is a very good multiplier to durability, and their offense is much higher with easy access (2 and a combi in 3 man) to specials.

Now this is good advice.

Bharring wrote:
CSM beat DAs if they get into Rapid Fire. By a lot. So while they could risk charging, moving up to rapid fire instead is enough for them to beat DAs.

As I discussed earlier, the DAs don't have to let the marines into rapid fire distance.
18" +d6 of battle focus is further then the 12+6 range that marines have. Marines will, at best, get 1 turn of rapid fire if the eldar player uses battle focus to engage first.
More likely, the marines will fire at 24", the eldar move up, fire, battle focus away. The marines can either move back and have this repeat, or move forward and try to catch them.
How are the marines in rapid fire range?

10 Marines firing at DA's, all bolters is
20*2/3*2/3*1/2 or 4.36

10 DA firing at marines is
is 3.7 dead marines. It's about a 3rd higher, or Da's deal about 75% of the same damage. So, while good, not what I would call a lot. That's mainly semantics though.
You are also not taking into account several things, which, since they don't support your point, you seem to want to gloss over.

1) Marines are slow. Marines will not easily reach rapid fire range. Rhinos are easily destroyed and don't contribute to the battle much.
2) Eldar are extremely quick. WS are one of the best transports in the game and still add a lot of firepower to an army.
3) Eldar get battle focus. An eldar army can dance backwards and forwards to help them get to the range they want to. At best, marines will get one turn of rapid fire and then never again.
4) Eldar get 2 shots before marines do, by a huge amount. At least 50% before, not worrying about the transports.

Try discussing these points. It's not that 3+ saves are bad, its that other troops that get taken have better weapons, better special rules, etc.

Bharring wrote:

Stick to a build? So you want a squad of CSM to beat - or at least equal - DAs with the same build when shooting any target? While being massively better in a lot of other areas?

Seriously, I didn't think anyone would be deluded enough to think a PG squad should excel at killing GEQs.

Let's not resort to name calling. It's the first sign of a losing argument after all.
I would like it if CSM beat the DA at half of the traditional targets. Right now, they don't, unless you switch equipment to always have the best guns for the job. Even then they usually tie. As we've proven here.
Either you take all bolters (which nobody does), and tie with them at GEQ levels, while doing worse everywhere else, or take plasma guns, and still do worse but not as bad (for the points. You keep giving the marines about 20% point advantage without giving the DA anything in return.
Aren't marines the generalists? Shouldn't they be decent against most targets infantry want to shoot at, instead of only being good in CC against tanks, which they can't reach due to being so slow? Why are DA beating them against almost every target?

Bharring wrote:

If I had intended to be misleading in the way you presume, logically, wouldn't I have run 2xPlas 1xCombi numbers instead? I split the difference between counting Combi or not and having 2 @ 5.

Do not lie.
That is not what you said before. You thought they could take 2 plasma guns at 5 man (which would make them awesome. Saturating better weapons is why wind riders are amazing after all).
If you want to add a combi go ahead. It helps, though now you're comparing 10 marines w/3 plasma against a 13 man squad of DA. I'm sure against armor 3+ or 2+ (especially) the marines will pull ahead. Especially with rapid firing (though how they achieve this out of pods we have yet to explore).
But that's for one turn. Every turn after that (Let's say, 3 turns of shooting by troops in a traditional game) you fall behind. Behind enough that, over the course of the game, the DA most likely pull ahead.
There is a reason combis are only taken on drop pod squads. They are absurdly expensive for what they can do.

Bharring wrote:

If DAs shot CSMs unmolested all game, sure, they could wipe them out. More realistically, though, the two sides grind each other down. With a 5+ cover, and never even getting into Rapid Fire range, CSM still kill most of the DAs before the last one is killed on turn 10. That's 10 turns of CSMs going virtually anywhere they want, claiming any objective they want.

Here is how it would go

A) Marines shoot at 24" 10 shots, doing ~2.2 kills.
B) Eldar move up, firing 16 shots back. 2.96 kills. Eldar battle focus away like jerks.
C) Marines stand still and fire at 24", doing 7 shots. doing 1.54 kills.
D) Eldar move up, firing 12 shots (assuming 2 died previous round) killing 2.2 marines. Eldar battle focus away like jerks.
E) Marines stand still and fire at 24", doing 5 shots. they now cause 1.1 kills.
F) Eldar move up, firing 10 shots, killing 1.85 marines.
G) Marines now fire 3 shots...you can see where this is going, but I'll continue. Marines get .66 kills.
H) Eldar fire again, 8 shots, 1.48 kills.
I) Marines fire 2 shots, scoring .44 kills.
J) Eldar fire with 8 shots, scoring 1.48 kills, destroying the squad.
5 turns of shooting for eldar to wipe the squad. The DA have 4 members alive, a little less than half the squad. I didn't include the exarch for them however.


Note that, the 2 plasma gun +combi against 13 DA do even worse. That is assuming the exarch doesn't accidentally kill one of the plasma gun guys. So no, you're wrong again.

Bharring wrote:

The Exarch is a slouch in combat. 2 S3 AP- attacks. How are you afraid of that? About a 10% chance to kill the Sarge? Giving him a CC weapon is both expensive, and cuts his shooting. And then its still base S3.

Who even mentioned combat? My only question has been "how do your marines reach CC if the enemy doesn't want them to? Especially against eldar, who have battle focus?"
I mentioned the BS 2 overwatch, which helps with killing marines (though not enough to win combat) and the shimmer shield to help them survive longer and act as a tarpit. Neither are effective options, but they are better than what marines get (combi + cc weapon).


EDIT
I agree with that niv-mizzet is saying. 3+ saves are good, but marines have terrible weapons so the extra toughness granted doesn't make up for it. They lose against most targets in a one on one fight, and don't add a lot to an overall battle if ignored.

"However only bringing the offense to kill 10-20% of an enemy army per turn while they kill 30-40% of yours through superior weapons is where marines find their failing."

This is what I've been saying the whole time.

So it is the weapons on the tacts that are troublesome, not the 3+ save.

So 3+ saves are useful.

/thread

I still think the answer is to change the Armour Save and Armour Piercing systems entirely:
Make it so the Armour Save is a value between 1 and 10, with higher being better like any other Characteristic, and the same for the Armour Piercing value on a Weapon profile. Then create a system where the Armour Piercing value reduces points from the Armour Save value before a check is made. This way the Armour Piercing value on the weapon becomes more then a boolean, no longer is it something we use to determine if an Armour Save is allowed but something that affects the Armour Save in every situation. They could even use this to make certain weapons completely harmless against certain types of Armour, eliminating some of the complaints against 2+ Armour Saves as well.

Marines would get a massive boost under such a system, as their Armour would be better off absorbing this 'debuff' then most infantry while their weapons would put a larger 'debuff' on the enemy then most infantry.

3+ saves are good, but staying power is useless without offensive power to back it up.

Yet the problem is that since Marines are so common and "dying in droves" already if you give them better weapons.... They are going to end up dying even faster then they are now.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So it is the weapons on the tacts that are troublesome, not the 3+ save.

So 3+ saves are useful.

/thread

But geometrically more useful on units that have real firepower.