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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/26 17:21:20
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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I guess I am American now
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/26 17:28:45
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Glorious Lord of Chaos
The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer
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The Space Marines win through the power of FRIENDSHIP.
Or rather, brotherhood. It is a very special kind of friendship.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/26 17:56:31
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Heroic Senior Officer
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But haven't you heard
Friendship is magic and magic is heresy.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/26 18:09:11
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Ashiraya wrote:The Space Marines win through the power of FRIENDSHIP.
Or rather, brotherhood. It is a very special kind of friendship.
Burn the Heretic.
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Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/26 18:51:55
Subject: Re:Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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TheCustomLime wrote:endlesswaltz123 wrote:All your patriotic (idiotic) MERICA folk need to chill out, if you were that great a force you wouldn't have ballsed up Nam, Irag both times, Afghan and you are now making a pigs ear of Syria....
Just cleaning up the mess you Europeans made of the Middle East.
Indeed, given that the vastly overwhelming majority of Middle Eastern conflict traces directly and completely to Great Britain.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/26 19:39:40
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Asterios wrote:godking wrote: Lord Tarkin wrote:Without any help whatsoever, absolutely not. A typical codex chapter is 1,000 battle brothers. The only thing they'd conquer alone are moons and space stations. But if it's a world, then they'd definitely need local PDF or IG to help flex their muscles. Otherwise, they're losing the numbers game really bad, and even as superhuman as they are, it wouldn't be hard for a capable rebel commander to eliminate them.
Exactly !
I don't think people actually understand how small a number a 1000 men is to hold an ENTIRE planet.
Losing 10 battle brothers in a battle could already be a crippling loss for a force numbering a mere 1000 men no matter how superhuman they are.
that is my point too, man to SM the SM will always win out 1,000 men to a space marine and the space marine will lose out, or even 100 men to 1 space marine, each space marine I would put equivalent to 10 men.
Thats assuming that they will fight the marines man to man in open combat.
If out of a population of lets say 1 billion even 1 % decides to fight a guerrila war avoiding direct combat and using snipers and IEDs to take out space marines holding the planet already becomes untenable.
And yes space marines are vunerable to ieds and snipers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/26 20:36:53
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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IEDs (S8 AP3 Ordnance) auto-wins against SMs *and* their flat-bottomed vehicles.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/26 20:56:42
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Ancient Venerable Dreadnought
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It's important to always remember that the Space Marines are as competent as the narrative requires them to be, lol.
In practice, though? No. Ammunition consumption alone will be a major factor, since bolters have a limited ammunition supply. Without frequent and constant resupply, the amount of firepower a Space Marine has is actually fairly limited. That's why Space Marines are best for quick, decisive actions, rather than long, drawn out ones. Space Marines themselves are plenty tough. But then their supply lines have to be equally durable to survive resupplying them in a high-threat environment.
After ammunition concerns, you have simple power-projection issues. Space Marines come in small groups of 100-1000 or so. Their battlespace footprint is very small. Again why you hit specific targets with Space Marines, and fight campaigns with the IGuard. A squad of Space Marines can apply a lot of firepower and to a small area, and withstand a fair amount of punishment, but in the end, it's just 10 guys fighting, and are limited to the amount of area 10 guys can cover, meaning Space Marines can be easily flanked or maneuvered around if needed.
Space Marines, aren't the hammer, or the anvil. They're basically a big, hefty nail. You drive it into whatever you need it for, but don't expect it to do the whole job by itself.
You know, unless the fluff needs them to conquer the whole planet. Then it should work out fine.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/26 22:32:35
Subject: Re:Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Yeah, I mean, I thought the role of Astartes being tools of conquest had ended when Guilliman broke up the Legions. There's a reason that Space Marines don't use as much heavy equipment as their predecessors did. Ex. The rarity of the Typhon Siege Tank. They can still make new Typhons but there isn't much of a demand for them except for very specific circumstances.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/26 23:09:22
Subject: Re:Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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TheCustomLime wrote:I thought the role of Astartes being tools of conquest had ended when Guilliman broke up the Legions.
There's a reason that Space Marines don't use as much heavy equipment as their predecessors did. Ex. The rarity of the Typhon Siege Tank. They can still make new Typhons but there isn't much of a demand for them except for very specific circumstances.
Pretty much. Post-Heresy, the Imperium doesn't want any individual Chapter to be able to easily conquer an entire planet on its own. SMs are now more heavily reliant on Imperial Navy and Imperial Guard to provide support and numbers compared to the pre-Heresy Legions.
Of all the current Chapters, I think only the Black Templars would still have a shot at conquering an entire planet, and that's only because they told Robbie to go feth himself with his Codex Astartes rules. Taped to a brick. Sideways. Even then, they're not even half of a pre-Heresy Legion in fighting strength...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/26 23:24:34
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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It's not clear that a legion could really do it, either. Using logic outside of the fluff, I mean.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/26 23:33:28
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Martel732 wrote:It's not clear that a legion could really do it, either. Using logic outside of the fluff, I mean.
The OLD Ultramarine Legion could. But they were HUGE, the largest Legion of them all.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/27 07:37:03
Subject: Re:Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Confessor Of Sins
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endlesswaltz123 wrote:All those anti air sites that are around to take out the drop pods, yep, you just launch empty drop pods (legit tactic used) and again, you just bombard those sites. That artillery that will take out the marines on the ground and fire at the pods that make it, yep, you've just revealed your position, bye bye.
Quite a lot of modern AA and artillery is mounted on vehicles that can shoot-and-scoot. Using different elevation on the arty you can shoot several shots at different angles so they all land about simultaneously. Put out a barrage and the whole platoon is elsewhere before the munitions even hit their target. That's become necessary because our modern armies are quite upset at getting shelled and have developed counters to let them locate and fire back on far-away attackers.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/27 13:27:55
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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JohnHwangDD wrote: Formosa wrote:As a side note, people need to stop using the TT rules for ranges and how accurate and army is in the fluff, the fluff influences the rules, but the rules are not representative of the actual fluff, we know marines could take this planet out easily because... guess what, they do, against tech levels both greater and lesser than ours.
1:You're arguing when the fluff says the SMs win, they win; but if the fluff says they die, they don't?
2: Nope. All of the fluff is valid, and so are the rules.
3: SMs are clearly vulnerable to the basic artillery, machine guns, shotguns and (sniper) rifles as of100+ years ago in WW1
4:and they would die that much faster to today's weapons. Especially as our weapons are far more accurate, at far longer ranges.
5: And that's the difference between Imperial dogma vs modern practice.
6: The SMs don't actually use any of the embedded technology in their suits or weapons
7:They shoot from the hip, not even using the iron sights, much less the autorangefinder tools
8: Our guys use the laser sights and computer fire control on our vehicles. They use the manual override and hand crank the elevation and traverse.
9: That's why they miss 1/3 of the time, no matter what the gun or the tech.
10: Plus, they're all meathead morons.
"No, you look at the whole and not little snipets of the fluff"
Because you clearly didn't read the entire thing, literally the first thing I said, but hey, take one line out of context and quote it, I don't mind lol.
I will address all of your points though, as that's how it should be done.
1: no, I'm not arguing that, I'm saying that marines beat higher tech levels than ours all the time, so they can and would beat ours.
2: no, the rules are not valid in a fluff discussion because they have little to no bearing on the fluff, the fluff influences the rules on a small scale, but that's it, otherwise we would have marine armies of 30 movie marines, a single terminator squad would wipe whole nid armies etc. add to that the the rules don't represent a whole swath of things in the fluff.
3: yes marines are vunerable to artillery, that's true, small arms weapons such as those you have mentioned are all but useless against marines, as shown in the fluff multiple times, no, the weapons used take the asthetic of WW1, but are not WW1 weapons, they are 41st M weapons, you know this, I can only assume that you are being wilfully ignorant or trolling with that statement.
4: no they wouldn't as shown in multiple instances of fluff, marines being hit by missiles and living, laser rounds and ballistic rounds bouncing off them "like rain" and doing next to nothing, again shown in multiple instances of fluff, you assumption that we have more accurate weapons is also wrong, I know of no human at a run that can fire a round through an eye lense of an enemy at even 100 metres, let alone longer ranges, we are told that marines are incredible shots.
5: the game is written by people with no military experience, so don't expect them to know what target indication, fire and manoeuvre, vehicle drills etc. are, we can only assume that all forces in 40k use appropriate training, in spite of the writers not knowing how to write it in.
6: Do you even read the fluff at all??? yes they do, a few examples, multi spectrum sensor suite embedded in the marines helm, enhanced audio receptors, direct weapon cams, audio dampeners in the main armour (some chapters), ECM suite in the armour (some chapters), embedded fusion reactor in back pack, integrated ammo hoppers in the armour to house various grenades and ammunition, I can go on, but I strongly suggest you actually go and find this info for yourself.
7: No they don't, they sometimes shoot from the hip, and are extremely accurate in doing so, because guess what, they have target range finders, auto tracking software, they can tag enemies for priority shooting etc. again AS SHOWN IN THE FLUFF, that you clearly haven't read or even looked into.
8: they have bodily integrated systems, literal living within the machine using MIU (iron hands) to pilot the vehicles, they also have computer (machine spirit is an advanced AI) control, in addition to servitor controlled weapons, space marines don't use hand cranked systems, they are electric, the challe 2 has a hand crank system in case the electric system goes down, having it, doesn't mean its the only thing it can use.
9: no they don't, they miss as much as they miss in the fluff, rules have no bearing on this discussion.
10: no they are not, they are all very intelligent, have idetic memories, able to adapt and learn at an insane rate compared to us, no marine is a meathead by design.
so in closing, every point you made, is in fact made out of either ignorance of the fluff or a troll, I'm hoping its the ignorance myself.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/27 13:28:39
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/27 13:58:55
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Formosa wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote: Formosa wrote:As a side note, people need to stop using the TT rules for ranges and how accurate and army is in the fluff, the fluff influences the rules, but the rules are not representative of the actual fluff, we know marines could take this planet out easily because... guess what, they do, against tech levels both greater and lesser than ours.
1:You're arguing when the fluff says the SMs win, they win; but if the fluff says they die, they don't?
2: Nope. All of the fluff is valid, and so are the rules.
3: SMs are clearly vulnerable to the basic artillery, machine guns, shotguns and (sniper) rifles as of100+ years ago in WW1
4:and they would die that much faster to today's weapons. Especially as our weapons are far more accurate, at far longer ranges.
5: And that's the difference between Imperial dogma vs modern practice.
6: The SMs don't actually use any of the embedded technology in their suits or weapons
7:They shoot from the hip, not even using the iron sights, much less the autorangefinder tools
8: Our guys use the laser sights and computer fire control on our vehicles. They use the manual override and hand crank the elevation and traverse.
9: That's why they miss 1/3 of the time, no matter what the gun or the tech.
10: Plus, they're all meathead morons.
"No, you look at the whole and not little snipets of the fluff"
Because you clearly didn't read the entire thing, literally the first thing I said, but hey, take one line out of context and quote it, I don't mind lol.
I will address all of your points though, as that's how it should be done.
1: no, I'm not arguing that, I'm saying that marines beat higher tech levels than ours all the time, so they can and would beat ours.
2: no, the rules are not valid in a fluff discussion because they have little to no bearing on the fluff, the fluff influences the rules on a small scale, but that's it, otherwise we would have marine armies of 30 movie marines, a single terminator squad would wipe whole nid armies etc. add to that the the rules don't represent a whole swath of things in the fluff.
3: yes marines are vunerable to artillery, that's true, small arms weapons such as those you have mentioned are all but useless against marines, as shown in the fluff multiple times, no, the weapons used take the asthetic of WW1, but are not WW1 weapons, they are 41st M weapons, you know this, I can only assume that you are being wilfully ignorant or trolling with that statement.
4: no they wouldn't as shown in multiple instances of fluff, marines being hit by missiles and living, laser rounds and ballistic rounds bouncing off them "like rain" and doing next to nothing, again shown in multiple instances of fluff, you assumption that we have more accurate weapons is also wrong, I know of no human at a run that can fire a round through an eye lense of an enemy at even 100 metres, let alone longer ranges, we are told that marines are incredible shots.
5: the game is written by people with no military experience, so don't expect them to know what target indication, fire and manoeuvre, vehicle drills etc. are, we can only assume that all forces in 40k use appropriate training, in spite of the writers not knowing how to write it in.
6: Do you even read the fluff at all??? yes they do, a few examples, multi spectrum sensor suite embedded in the marines helm, enhanced audio receptors, direct weapon cams, audio dampeners in the main armour (some chapters), ECM suite in the armour (some chapters), embedded fusion reactor in back pack, integrated ammo hoppers in the armour to house various grenades and ammunition, I can go on, but I strongly suggest you actually go and find this info for yourself.
7: No they don't, they sometimes shoot from the hip, and are extremely accurate in doing so, because guess what, they have target range finders, auto tracking software, they can tag enemies for priority shooting etc. again AS SHOWN IN THE FLUFF, that you clearly haven't read or even looked into.
8: they have bodily integrated systems, literal living within the machine using MIU (iron hands) to pilot the vehicles, they also have computer (machine spirit is an advanced AI) control, in addition to servitor controlled weapons, space marines don't use hand cranked systems, they are electric, the challe 2 has a hand crank system in case the electric system goes down, having it, doesn't mean its the only thing it can use.
9: no they don't, they miss as much as they miss in the fluff, rules have no bearing on this discussion.
10: no they are not, they are all very intelligent, have idetic memories, able to adapt and learn at an insane rate compared to us, no marine is a meathead by design.
so in closing, every point you made, is in fact made out of either ignorance of the fluff or a troll, I'm hoping its the ignorance myself.
now let me respond to your points:
1: yes Marines have beaten higher tech then ours, but then again they have fallen to more simpler tech then ours like bone claws and such, have to remember Tyranids for all the excitement are just like us, nothing really fancy just a lot of us.
2: fluff makes SM's powerful, rules make them wimps. (just watched the SM movie again where a squad of UM's took out a whole bunch of Chaos Black Legion Marines, go Smurfs)
3: actually WWI weapons are more powerful then you give them credit for a Gatling Gun which is pre-WWI could make short work of a SM but for some reason you think we only recently gotten out of the old flintlock and musket period, got news for you wake up and realize we have had powerful weapons for awhile.
4: beg to disagree being in a shooting range challenges i've seen some heady shots and while moving, you seriously underestimate normal humans while making SM's the gods they aren't.
5: they don't write them in because they are not cool or fun, look at the movies or TV a lot of that gak that goes on would not even be tolerated or permitted in the real world.
6: I've read the Fluff and read it all and most of what they say a SM has he could not have, because reality would set in on storage and such. and shall we talk about their armor? about as useful as Storm Trooper armor, for all the vaunted talk you give their precious armor, it can still be cut by bone claws of all things., but then you will say it is stronger then our bullets, and I say are you sure? where does it say it is? and i'm not talking some SM made up metal, since who says that is stronger then our steel jacketed bullets? you assume it is but assumption is the mother of screw ups.
7: oooh wait I heard about this magical bullet theory(a space marine killed Kennedy), so now their jet-propelled bullets have guidance missiles in them? you know for a society that has forgotten most of its own technology and can barely make tanks and APV's move you sure give them amazing skills in other things.
8: you do realize the machine spirits are just their backwards way of saying why the auto-pilot works right? they don't have AI's since if they did the Computers would have killed the illiterate lot of them a long time ago.
9: ?
10: yes Intelligent to the point they blindlessly follow a dead body and worship it as a god.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/27 14:00:20
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/27 14:54:35
Subject: Re:Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant
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Claiming Tyrannies are technologically inferior to us
You mean superior, just think about it, they can adapt on planet to threats they encounter in very little time, forming an army of warrior with custom made weaponry if required. The blade and claw maybe humble compared to a cruise missile, but it's the material that blade and claw is made out of, and secondly what it is attached will dictate how advanced the weapon is.
Also, tell me how your missile that shoots a mile away penetrated adamantium, ceramite and thermoplas (thunder hawk armour)???? Do you know the density? Do you know the forces of the atomic bonds that keep it together? No, no you don't, you don't even know if we possess any weapons on this planet that can penetrate that armour, because you don't know what that armour is.
Seriously, the fluff states they beat us, so they beat us.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/27 14:57:05
My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance
My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
Blog |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/27 15:09:05
Subject: Re:Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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endlesswaltz123 wrote:Claiming Tyrannies are technologically inferior to us
You mean superior, just think about it, they can adapt on planet to threats they encounter in very little time, forming an army of warrior with custom made weaponry if required. The blade and claw maybe humble compared to a cruise missile, but it's the material that blade and claw is made out of, and secondly what it is attached will dictate how advanced the weapon is.
Also, tell me how your missile that shoots a mile away penetrated adamantium, ceramite and thermoplas (thunder hawk armour)???? Do you know the density? Do you know the forces of the atomic bonds that keep it together? No, no you don't, you don't even know if we possess any weapons on this planet that can penetrate that armour, because you don't know what that armour is.
Seriously, the fluff states they beat us, so they beat us.
one Tyranid doohickies for whatever are still organic material, plain and simple if organic material can cut thru the armor its not that strong, and you do realize you do not need to penetrate armor to take something down? and let us see, we have Adamantium its not a durable material for armor since its fictional, so has no real world equivalent except for maybe a lighter Titanium, GW probably used it cause of Wolverine, Ceramite not impervious its like 1" is equal to 12" of reinforced steel (you know ship hull stuff) and yet we can blow thru 12" of steel pretty easy, or heck lets burn thru it even., thermoplastic, ooh protection from grease and oils, wow really powerful stuff there. one thing you have to remember is if man can make it, man can destroy it., not too mention say a cruise missile hits a SM or a thunderhawk yeah the armor might mostly be there, but hwat is inside is jelly now. and no the fluff does not say they beat us. and SM armor for being so tough can still be taken down by IG weapons and not talking lasguns either.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/27 15:10:49
Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/27 15:36:12
Subject: Re:Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot
On moon miranda.
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K, you take the most advanced, sharp, and capable sword ever devised, I'll take one of my AK's. Lets see how that works out
Spoiler, they figured out in 1914 that it tends to end very poorly every time for the guy with a sword
And I say that as someone who engages in Longsword and Dussack fencing 3 days a week.
Also, tell me how your missile that shoots a mile away penetrated adamantium, ceramite and thermoplas (thunder hawk armour)???? Do you know the density? Do you know the forces of the atomic bonds that keep it together? No, no you don't, you don't even know if we possess any weapons on this planet that can penetrate that armour, because you don't know what that armour is.
We know weapons that have direct modern day equivalents can and do penetrate and damage these materials, weapons such as Autocannons, Autoguns, Krak Missiles, Battlecannons, etc. These are not sophisticated weapons, they do not utilize advanced materials or scientific principles that are beyond our means. Likewise we know many of the theoretical limits of materials in terms of tensile strengths and melting/sublimation points (physical matter of any type for instance cannot sustain solid form much above 4000*C).
Likewise, as noted above, you dont need to penetrate the armor to destroy what is inside. Hit a WW2 Tiger with an IS2's HE shell and it may not penetrate, but the crew will be dead or badly injured and half the mechanical devices (like the turret ring) will be broken. Shoot someone in a bulletproof vest and you can still break ribs or stop a heart, and a nearby explosion will turn their insides to goo. Maces operated on this principle, fighting an armored opponent with a sword sucks, a mace will transfer energy through armor very well without needing to penetrate.
Seriously, the fluff states they beat us, so they beat us.
The fluff says no such thing directly. The fluff also pays no attention to the major background operations of war that determine victory in 98% of cases. It's also wildly inconsistent with itself.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/09/27 15:44:54
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/27 17:10:55
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Formosa wrote:so in closing, every point is in fact made out of either ignorance of the fluff or a troll
Actually, that is good summary of all of your posts so far...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/27 19:02:55
Subject: Re:Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
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Fluffwise, 10 space marines could conquer a planet
Gamewise 1,000,000 would have trouble.
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Dark Mechanicus and Renegade Iron Hand Dakka Blog
My Dark Mechanicus P&M Blog. Mostly Modeling as I paint very slowly. Lots of kitbashed conversions of marines and a few guard to make up a renegade Iron Hand chapter and Dark Mechanicus Allies. Bionics++ |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/27 19:42:20
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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Asterios wrote: 1hadhq wrote:The common duty of agri worlds is to make more than they consume to feed the worlds who cannot.
Like Agri worlds running mostly on farming and feeding hive worlds.
Again , old fluff, basically the rather barbaric worlds with low tech and small pop's and the civilized ones won't need the agri worlds products, but the over industrialized and overpopulated hives do, so this setup seems to make sense.
Beeing an agri world because it grows "drugs", or better said it does have a product which is collected and beeing fought over, can't help but this sounds a bit weird..to me.
Farmers and/or ranchers who export food, sure agri world I'd say. But your example seem to be unable to control the "farming", to have to search for and to "collect". Isn't that a hunter/collector culture and not settled agricultural?
you have pretty much a limited view of agri-worlds, agri-worlds consist of any type of food and natural drug collection which includes fishing, hunting, psychadelic drugs, and plant based and tree based foods. all things required to make the Imperium keep on moving.
My view isn't limited , i just didn't post every product any Imperial world may export.
OtOH, you are stuck with an outlier, something that isn't "standard sized" and the data you wanted to point to is incomplete.
IMO, I am better off with a set of compatible numbers, because I don't have to include the influence of marketing and GW's allegry to scale as much as you have to.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's important to always remember that the Space Marines are as competent as the narrative requires them to be, lol.
Space Marines belong into 40k, a fictional place. Real life has limits, it has to follow "rules", we could apply logic to a subject. Again, SM aren't part of real life. So real life forces are still bound by anything they cannot overcome in reality, where fictional forces just need someone to dream up a "solution".
Anyone posted about the possibiltiy of an Invader offering power to a faction on Earth yet? If not, I'd like to add this point here.
The advantage of a force in Orbit is :
- obviously they are where we have a hard time to do anything about them.
- obviously they know how to get there and may have the tools to use their position too
- it is safe to assume that anyone travelling far may be able to gather data about the worlds they encounter.
- they either travel very fast or can handle great time spans.
A force in Orbit could make an offer to a major faction on earth, for example "to rule in the Emperors name" , maybe even trade something for it. Are you sure no one is going to join "the other side" in a conflict of "earth vs conquerorX" ?
Or have their Librarius create a conflict, make the nuke owners believe their counterpart has already his finger at the fire-button... one false step and there is no return.
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Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/27 19:50:10
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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1hadhq wrote:Asterios wrote: 1hadhq wrote:The common duty of agri worlds is to make more than they consume to feed the worlds who cannot.
Like Agri worlds running mostly on farming and feeding hive worlds.
Again , old fluff, basically the rather barbaric worlds with low tech and small pop's and the civilized ones won't need the agri worlds products, but the over industrialized and overpopulated hives do, so this setup seems to make sense.
Beeing an agri world because it grows "drugs", or better said it does have a product which is collected and beeing fought over, can't help but this sounds a bit weird..to me.
Farmers and/or ranchers who export food, sure agri world I'd say. But your example seem to be unable to control the "farming", to have to search for and to "collect". Isn't that a hunter/collector culture and not settled agricultural?
you have pretty much a limited view of agri-worlds, agri-worlds consist of any type of food and natural drug collection which includes fishing, hunting, psychadelic drugs, and plant based and tree based foods. all things required to make the Imperium keep on moving.
My view isn't limited , i just didn't post every product any Imperial world may export.
OtOH, you are stuck with an outlier, something that isn't "standard sized" and the data you wanted to point to is incomplete.
IMO, I am better off with a set of compatible numbers, because I don't have to include the influence of marketing and GW's allegry to scale as much as you have to.
Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's important to always remember that the Space Marines are as competent as the narrative requires them to be, lol.
Space Marines belong into 40k, a fictional place. Real life has limits, it has to follow "rules", we could apply logic to a subject. Again, SM aren't part of real life. So real life forces are still bound by anything they cannot overcome in reality, where fictional forces just need someone to dream up a "solution".
Anyone posted about the possibiltiy of an Invader offering power to a faction on Earth yet? If not, I'd like to add this point here.
The advantage of a force in Orbit is :
- obviously they are where we have a hard time to do anything about them.
- obviously they know how to get there and may have the tools to use their position too
- it is safe to assume that anyone travelling far may be able to gather data about the worlds they encounter.
- they either travel very fast or can handle great time spans.
A force in Orbit could make an offer to a major faction on earth, for example "to rule in the Emperors name" , maybe even trade something for it. Are you sure no one is going to join "the other side" in a conflict of "earth vs conquerorX" ?
Or have their Librarius create a conflict, make the nuke owners believe their counterpart has already his finger at the fire-button... one false step and there is no return.
but if you are going by GW fluff, then that is not an option if they do not worship the God Emperor then they are heretics, and sorry to say not many if any on this little blue ball will worship him.
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Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/27 20:12:25
Subject: Re:Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Vaktathi wrote:The fluff also pays no attention to the major background operations of war that determine victory in 98% of cases. It's also wildly inconsistent with itself.
The 2% where it does is pretty instructive. I like the story of the Iron Cage, because it rather neatly encapsulates everything iconic about Space Marines, exemplified by idiot Dorn and the rest of his idiot Loyalists... Perturabo got the SMs to drop into a killzone less than 3 miles in total diameter; destroyed their Pods & vehicles with artillery; scattered their orbital fleet via Roman naval boardings; and spent 3-4 weeks just killing SMs who were too stupid and to proud to mount an intelligent response. We learn that SMs have maybe a week's worth of ammo, and will stupidly walk into walls and floors of IEDs.
Also, the 20 square miles of the Iron Cage (<5 miles across) is SMALL. Aleppo is almost 4 times larger. Stalingrad stretched 30 miles along the Volga. Afghanistan and Switzerland (and Luxembourg) are all just versions of the Iron Cage, and none of them would fall to a SM Chapter.
Finally, the problem with the Fluff is that of the unreliable narrator. I would posit that the Imperial Fluff is vastly overstated and exaggerated by the Imperial Ministry of Truth for Imperial Propaganda purposes.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/09/27 20:13:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/27 20:30:18
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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JohnHwangDD wrote: Formosa wrote:so in closing, every point is in fact made out of either ignorance of the fluff or a troll
Actually, that is good summary of all of your posts so far...
How dare I use sense and reason, how dare I ask people to respond to all of my points rather than take parts out of context, how dare I back up my statements, and ask others to do so.
Yes, I'm clearly trolling haha
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/27 20:49:20
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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Asterios wrote:
but if you are going by GW fluff, then that is not an option if they do not worship the God Emperor then they are heretics, and sorry to say not many if any on this little blue ball will worship him.
a) sources for your claim that anyone is unjustly accused of beeing a heretic without a chance to be enlightend by the ecclesiarchy ?
b) why would Space Marines insist on worshipping the Big E ? Compliance to the IoM is all they need of you.
c) you surely guarantee that no one is worshipping Big E , right? only a few billions of humans you take responsibility for ....
JohnHwangDD wrote:
Finally, the problem with the Fluff is that of the unreliable narrator. I would posit that the Imperial Fluff is vastly overstated and exaggerated by the Imperial Ministry of Truth for Imperial Propaganda purposes.
Imperial Fluff, quality assured by his Imperial Ministry of Truth, is obviosly at least true.
Where xenos and chaos fluff is just lies.
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Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/27 20:53:34
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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1hadhq wrote:b) why would Space Marines insist on worshipping the Big E ? Compliance to the IoM is all they need of you.
The majority of SM do not recognize the Emprah as a god - this was clearly stated in the GW Fluff several times.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/27 21:04:05
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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1hadhq wrote:Asterios wrote:
but if you are going by GW fluff, then that is not an option if they do not worship the God Emperor then they are heretics, and sorry to say not many if any on this little blue ball will worship him.
a) sources for your claim that anyone is unjustly accused of beeing a heretic without a chance to be enlightend by the ecclesiarchy ?
b) why would Space Marines insist on worshipping the Big E ? Compliance to the IoM is all they need of you.
c) you surely guarantee that no one is worshipping Big E , right? only a few billions of humans you take responsibility for ....
forget where but there is the story of a culture that worshipped and obeyed a computer SM's didn't like it, tried to stop it then wiped them out.
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Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/27 23:43:25
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Asterios wrote: 1hadhq wrote:Asterios wrote:
but if you are going by GW fluff, then that is not an option if they do not worship the God Emperor then they are heretics, and sorry to say not many if any on this little blue ball will worship him.
a) sources for your claim that anyone is unjustly accused of beeing a heretic without a chance to be enlightend by the ecclesiarchy ?
b) why would Space Marines insist on worshipping the Big E ? Compliance to the IoM is all they need of you.
c) you surely guarantee that no one is worshipping Big E , right? only a few billions of humans you take responsibility for ....
forget where but there is the story of a culture that worshipped and obeyed a computer SM's didn't like it, tried to stop it then wiped them out.
Slight genetic deviance, abhuman, consorting with xenos, and more.
The imperium has wiped out whole civilizations for these things, it's pretty standard for them actually.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/28 17:18:16
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Asterios wrote: Formosa wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote: Formosa wrote:As a side note, people need to stop using the TT rules for ranges and how accurate and army is in the fluff, the fluff influences the rules, but the rules are not representative of the actual fluff, we know marines could take this planet out easily because... guess what, they do, against tech levels both greater and lesser than ours.
1:You're arguing when the fluff says the SMs win, they win; but if the fluff says they die, they don't?
2: Nope. All of the fluff is valid, and so are the rules.
3: SMs are clearly vulnerable to the basic artillery, machine guns, shotguns and (sniper) rifles as of100+ years ago in WW1
4:and they would die that much faster to today's weapons. Especially as our weapons are far more accurate, at far longer ranges.
5: And that's the difference between Imperial dogma vs modern practice.
6: The SMs don't actually use any of the embedded technology in their suits or weapons
7:They shoot from the hip, not even using the iron sights, much less the autorangefinder tools
8: Our guys use the laser sights and computer fire control on our vehicles. They use the manual override and hand crank the elevation and traverse.
9: That's why they miss 1/3 of the time, no matter what the gun or the tech.
10: Plus, they're all meathead morons.
"No, you look at the whole and not little snipets of the fluff"
Because you clearly didn't read the entire thing, literally the first thing I said, but hey, take one line out of context and quote it, I don't mind lol.
I will address all of your points though, as that's how it should be done.
1: no, I'm not arguing that, I'm saying that marines beat higher tech levels than ours all the time, so they can and would beat ours.
2: no, the rules are not valid in a fluff discussion because they have little to no bearing on the fluff, the fluff influences the rules on a small scale, but that's it, otherwise we would have marine armies of 30 movie marines, a single terminator squad would wipe whole nid armies etc. add to that the the rules don't represent a whole swath of things in the fluff.
3: yes marines are vunerable to artillery, that's true, small arms weapons such as those you have mentioned are all but useless against marines, as shown in the fluff multiple times, no, the weapons used take the asthetic of WW1, but are not WW1 weapons, they are 41st M weapons, you know this, I can only assume that you are being wilfully ignorant or trolling with that statement.
4: no they wouldn't as shown in multiple instances of fluff, marines being hit by missiles and living, laser rounds and ballistic rounds bouncing off them "like rain" and doing next to nothing, again shown in multiple instances of fluff, you assumption that we have more accurate weapons is also wrong, I know of no human at a run that can fire a round through an eye lense of an enemy at even 100 metres, let alone longer ranges, we are told that marines are incredible shots.
5: the game is written by people with no military experience, so don't expect them to know what target indication, fire and manoeuvre, vehicle drills etc. are, we can only assume that all forces in 40k use appropriate training, in spite of the writers not knowing how to write it in.
6: Do you even read the fluff at all??? yes they do, a few examples, multi spectrum sensor suite embedded in the marines helm, enhanced audio receptors, direct weapon cams, audio dampeners in the main armour (some chapters), ECM suite in the armour (some chapters), embedded fusion reactor in back pack, integrated ammo hoppers in the armour to house various grenades and ammunition, I can go on, but I strongly suggest you actually go and find this info for yourself.
7: No they don't, they sometimes shoot from the hip, and are extremely accurate in doing so, because guess what, they have target range finders, auto tracking software, they can tag enemies for priority shooting etc. again AS SHOWN IN THE FLUFF, that you clearly haven't read or even looked into.
8: they have bodily integrated systems, literal living within the machine using MIU (iron hands) to pilot the vehicles, they also have computer (machine spirit is an advanced AI) control, in addition to servitor controlled weapons, space marines don't use hand cranked systems, they are electric, the challe 2 has a hand crank system in case the electric system goes down, having it, doesn't mean its the only thing it can use.
9: no they don't, they miss as much as they miss in the fluff, rules have no bearing on this discussion.
10: no they are not, they are all very intelligent, have idetic memories, able to adapt and learn at an insane rate compared to us, no marine is a meathead by design.
so in closing, every point you made, is in fact made out of either ignorance of the fluff or a troll, I'm hoping its the ignorance myself.
now let me respond to your points:
1: yes Marines have beaten higher tech then ours, but then again they have fallen to more simpler tech then ours like bone claws and such, have to remember Tyranids for all the excitement are just like us, nothing really fancy just a lot of us.
2: fluff makes SM's powerful, rules make them wimps. (just watched the SM movie again where a squad of UM's took out a whole bunch of Chaos Black Legion Marines, go Smurfs)
3: actually WWI weapons are more powerful then you give them credit for a Gatling Gun which is pre-WWI could make short work of a SM but for some reason you think we only recently gotten out of the old flintlock and musket period, got news for you wake up and realize we have had powerful weapons for awhile.
4: beg to disagree being in a shooting range challenges i've seen some heady shots and while moving, you seriously underestimate normal humans while making SM's the gods they aren't.
5: they don't write them in because they are not cool or fun, look at the movies or TV a lot of that gak that goes on would not even be tolerated or permitted in the real world.
6: I've read the Fluff and read it all and most of what they say a SM has he could not have, because reality would set in on storage and such. and shall we talk about their armor? about as useful as Storm Trooper armor, for all the vaunted talk you give their precious armor, it can still be cut by bone claws of all things., but then you will say it is stronger then our bullets, and I say are you sure? where does it say it is? and i'm not talking some SM made up metal, since who says that is stronger then our steel jacketed bullets? you assume it is but assumption is the mother of screw ups.
7: oooh wait I heard about this magical bullet theory(a space marine killed Kennedy), so now their jet-propelled bullets have guidance missiles in them? you know for a society that has forgotten most of its own technology and can barely make tanks and APV's move you sure give them amazing skills in other things.
8: you do realize the machine spirits are just their backwards way of saying why the auto-pilot works right? they don't have AI's since if they did the Computers would have killed the illiterate lot of them a long time ago.
9: ?
10: yes Intelligent to the point they blindlessly follow a dead body and worship it as a god.
thanks for the reply.
1:i am not disputing that marines have been beaten by lower tech levels than themselves, merely showing that marines have walked through tech levels much higher than our own.
2: Rules have no bearing on this discussion.
3: I have not mentioned power, no penetration, no range etc. when talking about small arms, I stated that the fluff shows small arms to be ineffective vs power armour, nor have I said anything about thinking we have just left the musket era, don't put words in my mouth, I work with weapons every single day, I fully know what we are capable of using, I very much doubt you do however because....
4: this is total nonsense, you have never, ever seen a person at a run, fire an assault rifle over a hundred metres and hit something the size of an eye lense, I fully know the capabilities of a human in stressful situations and what they are capable of, a lucky shot, sure, intentional, no.
5: this one is more subjective, yes some may not find it cool and fun for marines to speak and act like real soldiers in a combat situation, I would like it though, and yes tv and movies have sooooo many issues with how the military is portrayed, but its the same issue that the GW writers have, they just don't know and haven't got the experience.
6: yes marines will have storage issue in terms of ammo etc. but the tech built into the armour and helm, its all there, autosenses etc. as I stated before, as to the comment regarding the "being cut by bone" no, just no, any instance of a gaunt killing a marine, has the marine being massively overwhelmed and the weakpoints in his armour targeted, or the armour taking so much damage it begins to fail, take a few thousand hammers to it and it may start to lose integrity eventually, genestealers don't have bone claws, and the larger tyranid creatures have an immense amount of strength behind them.
Yes I will say it is stronger than our bullets, because that's what the fluff says, we have multiple instances of autogun fire simply doing nothing to a marine, even instances of the round going through an eye piece and not killing the marine, yes ceramite and plasteel is supposed to be stronger than our current metals, its the whole point of the tech, no you don't get to ignore the fluff and move the goalposts, how do you know that PDF troopers don't use steel jackets? do you really think that if a simple round adaption was good enough to render marines power armour useless, word would not have gotten around, we also do have example of such round in the DW RPG books, but rules are not relevant to this discussion, but they exist in the fluff, and guess what, they do sod all.
7: "oooh wait I heard about this magical bullet theory(a space marine killed Kennedy), so now their jet-propelled bullets have guidance missiles in them? you know for a society that has forgotten most of its own technology and can barely make tanks and APV's move you sure give them amazing skills in other things" Yes, some bolt rounds have guidance systems, no they don't have issues making tanks etc. move, marine vehicles work just fine, sure some tech has been lost, but that has nothing to do with what were talking about, marine weapons contain all the tech I have stated, fact.
8:Yes a machine spirit is an AI, several example exist of this being the case, such as a land raider hunting down orks on a planet, in spite of losing its crew, or a chaos land raider having its AI corrupted to chaos and becoming a deamon in its own right, they do have computers, they are called cogitators.
9: Marines miss as much as they miss in the fluff, because the rules have no bearing on this discussion, however it is hard to gauge how accurate that actually is, we know that individual shots are what we would consider extremely good.
10: irrelevant, some follow the emperor as a god, some don't, they are not designed to be stupid, they are designed to excel at everything, they are humans +1, however they are also designed to be loyal to each other and the emperor, this was not perfect so the later generations of marines receive psychoindotrination, to take away personality and implant information such as language etc. but like any human, some marine brains are better at taking on all of this information than others, but as designed, they are not stupid.
yet again I must question if you know much about the background of this game, as a lot of the mistakes you are making are easily sourced for confirmation, I mean, I thought everyone by this point knew about marine autosenses, the cam in a bolt gun etc. please, prior to responding (if you do) do a little research, if I have made a mistake, by all means point it out and cite it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/09/28 18:01:35
Subject: Can one Space Marine chapter conquer an entire planet?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Formosa wrote:Asterios wrote: Formosa wrote: JohnHwangDD wrote: Formosa wrote:As a side note, people need to stop using the TT rules for ranges and how accurate and army is in the fluff, the fluff influences the rules, but the rules are not representative of the actual fluff, we know marines could take this planet out easily because... guess what, they do, against tech levels both greater and lesser than ours.
1:You're arguing when the fluff says the SMs win, they win; but if the fluff says they die, they don't?
2: Nope. All of the fluff is valid, and so are the rules.
3: SMs are clearly vulnerable to the basic artillery, machine guns, shotguns and (sniper) rifles as of100+ years ago in WW1
4:and they would die that much faster to today's weapons. Especially as our weapons are far more accurate, at far longer ranges.
5: And that's the difference between Imperial dogma vs modern practice.
6: The SMs don't actually use any of the embedded technology in their suits or weapons
7:They shoot from the hip, not even using the iron sights, much less the autorangefinder tools
8: Our guys use the laser sights and computer fire control on our vehicles. They use the manual override and hand crank the elevation and traverse.
9: That's why they miss 1/3 of the time, no matter what the gun or the tech.
10: Plus, they're all meathead morons.
"No, you look at the whole and not little snipets of the fluff"
Because you clearly didn't read the entire thing, literally the first thing I said, but hey, take one line out of context and quote it, I don't mind lol.
I will address all of your points though, as that's how it should be done.
1: no, I'm not arguing that, I'm saying that marines beat higher tech levels than ours all the time, so they can and would beat ours.
2: no, the rules are not valid in a fluff discussion because they have little to no bearing on the fluff, the fluff influences the rules on a small scale, but that's it, otherwise we would have marine armies of 30 movie marines, a single terminator squad would wipe whole nid armies etc. add to that the the rules don't represent a whole swath of things in the fluff.
3: yes marines are vunerable to artillery, that's true, small arms weapons such as those you have mentioned are all but useless against marines, as shown in the fluff multiple times, no, the weapons used take the asthetic of WW1, but are not WW1 weapons, they are 41st M weapons, you know this, I can only assume that you are being wilfully ignorant or trolling with that statement.
4: no they wouldn't as shown in multiple instances of fluff, marines being hit by missiles and living, laser rounds and ballistic rounds bouncing off them "like rain" and doing next to nothing, again shown in multiple instances of fluff, you assumption that we have more accurate weapons is also wrong, I know of no human at a run that can fire a round through an eye lense of an enemy at even 100 metres, let alone longer ranges, we are told that marines are incredible shots.
5: the game is written by people with no military experience, so don't expect them to know what target indication, fire and manoeuvre, vehicle drills etc. are, we can only assume that all forces in 40k use appropriate training, in spite of the writers not knowing how to write it in.
6: Do you even read the fluff at all??? yes they do, a few examples, multi spectrum sensor suite embedded in the marines helm, enhanced audio receptors, direct weapon cams, audio dampeners in the main armour (some chapters), ECM suite in the armour (some chapters), embedded fusion reactor in back pack, integrated ammo hoppers in the armour to house various grenades and ammunition, I can go on, but I strongly suggest you actually go and find this info for yourself.
7: No they don't, they sometimes shoot from the hip, and are extremely accurate in doing so, because guess what, they have target range finders, auto tracking software, they can tag enemies for priority shooting etc. again AS SHOWN IN THE FLUFF, that you clearly haven't read or even looked into.
8: they have bodily integrated systems, literal living within the machine using MIU (iron hands) to pilot the vehicles, they also have computer (machine spirit is an advanced AI) control, in addition to servitor controlled weapons, space marines don't use hand cranked systems, they are electric, the challe 2 has a hand crank system in case the electric system goes down, having it, doesn't mean its the only thing it can use.
9: no they don't, they miss as much as they miss in the fluff, rules have no bearing on this discussion.
10: no they are not, they are all very intelligent, have idetic memories, able to adapt and learn at an insane rate compared to us, no marine is a meathead by design.
so in closing, every point you made, is in fact made out of either ignorance of the fluff or a troll, I'm hoping its the ignorance myself.
now let me respond to your points:
1: yes Marines have beaten higher tech then ours, but then again they have fallen to more simpler tech then ours like bone claws and such, have to remember Tyranids for all the excitement are just like us, nothing really fancy just a lot of us.
2: fluff makes SM's powerful, rules make them wimps. (just watched the SM movie again where a squad of UM's took out a whole bunch of Chaos Black Legion Marines, go Smurfs)
3: actually WWI weapons are more powerful then you give them credit for a Gatling Gun which is pre-WWI could make short work of a SM but for some reason you think we only recently gotten out of the old flintlock and musket period, got news for you wake up and realize we have had powerful weapons for awhile.
4: beg to disagree being in a shooting range challenges i've seen some heady shots and while moving, you seriously underestimate normal humans while making SM's the gods they aren't.
5: they don't write them in because they are not cool or fun, look at the movies or TV a lot of that gak that goes on would not even be tolerated or permitted in the real world.
6: I've read the Fluff and read it all and most of what they say a SM has he could not have, because reality would set in on storage and such. and shall we talk about their armor? about as useful as Storm Trooper armor, for all the vaunted talk you give their precious armor, it can still be cut by bone claws of all things., but then you will say it is stronger then our bullets, and I say are you sure? where does it say it is? and i'm not talking some SM made up metal, since who says that is stronger then our steel jacketed bullets? you assume it is but assumption is the mother of screw ups.
7: oooh wait I heard about this magical bullet theory(a space marine killed Kennedy), so now their jet-propelled bullets have guidance missiles in them? you know for a society that has forgotten most of its own technology and can barely make tanks and APV's move you sure give them amazing skills in other things.
8: you do realize the machine spirits are just their backwards way of saying why the auto-pilot works right? they don't have AI's since if they did the Computers would have killed the illiterate lot of them a long time ago.
9: ?
10: yes Intelligent to the point they blindlessly follow a dead body and worship it as a god.
thanks for the reply.
1:i am not disputing that marines have been beaten by lower tech levels than themselves, merely showing that marines have walked through tech levels much higher than our own.
2: Rules have no bearing on this discussion.
3: I have not mentioned power, no penetration, no range etc. when talking about small arms, I stated that the fluff shows small arms to be ineffective vs power armour, nor have I said anything about thinking we have just left the musket era, don't put words in my mouth, I work with weapons every single day, I fully know what we are capable of using, I very much doubt you do however because....
4: this is total nonsense, you have never, ever seen a person at a run, fire an assault rifle over a hundred metres and hit something the size of an eye lense, I fully know the capabilities of a human in stressful situations and what they are capable of, a lucky shot, sure, intentional, no.
5: this one is more subjective, yes some may not find it cool and fun for marines to speak and act like real soldiers in a combat situation, I would like it though, and yes tv and movies have sooooo many issues with how the military is portrayed, but its the same issue that the GW writers have, they just don't know and haven't got the experience.
6: yes marines will have storage issue in terms of ammo etc. but the tech built into the armour and helm, its all there, autosenses etc. as I stated before, as to the comment regarding the "being cut by bone" no, just no, any instance of a gaunt killing a marine, has the marine being massively overwhelmed and the weakpoints in his armour targeted, or the armour taking so much damage it begins to fail, take a few thousand hammers to it and it may start to lose integrity eventually, genestealers don't have bone claws, and the larger tyranid creatures have an immense amount of strength behind them.
Yes I will say it is stronger than our bullets, because that's what the fluff says, we have multiple instances of autogun fire simply doing nothing to a marine, even instances of the round going through an eye piece and not killing the marine, yes ceramite and plasteel is supposed to be stronger than our current metals, its the whole point of the tech, no you don't get to ignore the fluff and move the goalposts, how do you know that PDF troopers don't use steel jackets? do you really think that if a simple round adaption was good enough to render marines power armour useless, word would not have gotten around, we also do have example of such round in the DW RPG books, but rules are not relevant to this discussion, but they exist in the fluff, and guess what, they do sod all.
7: "oooh wait I heard about this magical bullet theory(a space marine killed Kennedy), so now their jet-propelled bullets have guidance missiles in them? you know for a society that has forgotten most of its own technology and can barely make tanks and APV's move you sure give them amazing skills in other things" Yes, some bolt rounds have guidance systems, no they don't have issues making tanks etc. move, marine vehicles work just fine, sure some tech has been lost, but that has nothing to do with what were talking about, marine weapons contain all the tech I have stated, fact.
8:Yes a machine spirit is an AI, several example exist of this being the case, such as a land raider hunting down orks on a planet, in spite of losing its crew, or a chaos land raider having its AI corrupted to chaos and becoming a deamon in its own right, they do have computers, they are called cogitators.
9: Marines miss as much as they miss in the fluff, because the rules have no bearing on this discussion, however it is hard to gauge how accurate that actually is, we know that individual shots are what we would consider extremely good.
10: irrelevant, some follow the emperor as a god, some don't, they are not designed to be stupid, they are designed to excel at everything, they are humans +1, however they are also designed to be loyal to each other and the emperor, this was not perfect so the later generations of marines receive psychoindotrination, to take away personality and implant information such as language etc. but like any human, some marine brains are better at taking on all of this information than others, but as designed, they are not stupid.
yet again I must question if you know much about the background of this game, as a lot of the mistakes you are making are easily sourced for confirmation, I mean, I thought everyone by this point knew about marine autosenses, the cam in a bolt gun etc. please, prior to responding (if you do) do a little research, if I have made a mistake, by all means point it out and cite it.
in repost:
1: yes just like we could take on tech levels higher then our own, that has been shown in our own past.
2: but the rules are constantly in disagreement with the fluff in many things.
3: you would be surprised with what I know and/or deal with.
4: didn't mean a fast run but a sprint or jog, and with some of the new technology coming out running fast and hitting your target is not so far fetched.
5: .....
6: What would you call Gene Stealers rending claws? pretty sure they are made of bone in there and those things will gut a marine likes its nothing. even Terminators, lets face it GeneStealers are a nasty piece of work.
7: a 30K army could take out a 40K army any day of the week.
8: but those are in respect to Land Raiders and sometimes I feel like they did a Dreadnought on Land Raiders.
9: yes
10: they may not believe the Emperor is God but they enforce it. kind of like the Crusades here on earth.
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Thinks Palladium books screwed the pooch on the Robotech project. |
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