Forge World News and Rumour Thread : p212 Knight Porphyrion

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**Lockark**

The rule book was what made IA so expensive to buy into.

**shabbadoo**

Any news on the release date of the revamped Tau Barracuda?

**aka_mythos**

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
FW used to sell 2x Warhounds at 6mm scale for £19, is they raise that to say £25 for 8mm scale that wouldn't be too bad.

Its important to consider a number of things. The Titans made in previous editions were not properly scaled; they were scaled to what was convenient to produce. For instance my epic Reaver titan measures ~1-3/4" at 6mm scale it should be ~3" tall and in 8mm it should be ~4" tall. The growth in size is volumetric... so a single 8mm titan has more than double the volume of the epic Titan models.

Given the size of the different titans in 8mm relative to different FW 40k models I'd estimate the prices at £30 for a Warhound, £40 for a Reaver, £120 for a Warlord... and all that is probably without weapons.

**MajorWesJanson**

aka_mythos wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
FW used to sell 2x Warhounds at 6mm scale for £19, is they raise that to say £25 for 8mm scale that wouldn't be too bad.

Its important to consider a number of things. The Titans made in previous editions were not properly scaled; they were scaled to what was convenient to produce. For instance my epic Reaver titan measures ~1-3/4" at 6mm scale it should be ~3" tall and in 8mm it should be ~4" tall. The growth in size is volumetric... so a single 8mm titan has more than double the volume of the epic Titan models.

Given the size of the different titans in 8mm relative to different FW 40k models I'd estimate the prices at £30 for a Warhound, £40 for a Reaver, £120 for a Warlord... and all that is probably without weapons.

Those prices seem rather high, especially without weapons. Especially when you consider how they can simplify the models from the 28mm scale versions- Warhound and reaver will lack interiors, so the central torsos can probably be cast up as a single part.

**aka_mythos**

Given the level of detail they're shooting for I'd guess the warhound's and similarly the reaver's torso are 3 pieces. The warhound is about dreadnought sized and the reaver in between a Contemptor and a Leviathan... those estimates are based on the prices for those models, but generally rounding down. Maybe they'll give us weapons, but their established practices so far say otherwise.

**Vorian**

EDIT: OK, and lets squish that one right away: the main HH line is expensive, yes. It's also entirely compatible with 40K - if you collect Space Marines you don't have to choose between 40K Marines and 30K Marines in any sense other than which aesthetic you prefer, the models are almost completely interchangable. The rules are also a branch of 40K rules and so don't have any effort-barrier. AT will be a new(to most) system with models that can be used for AT, they two are not equivalent from the logical position of someone with a limited hobby budget seeking to maximise value for money.

So, it's expensive yet still popular.

Glad we agree.

AT has things in its favour and things against it. We will see how all those factor together and how successful it is. At the moment we have nothing but vague guesses at pricing and the other factors are unquantifiable.

**zedmeister**

aka_mythos wrote:
Given the size of the different titans in 8mm relative to different FW 40k models I'd estimate the prices at £30 for a Warhound, £40 for a Reaver, £120 for a Warlord... and all that is probably without weapons.

I'd say that was a good estimate. I was chatting with James Hewitt mainly and one of things he did say was that they'd like to sell the Chassis and weapons separately.

Also, here's something I posted on BattleBunnies - an expanded description of my collaring of James Hewitt:

It was James Hewitt I chatted to and he was willing to divulge quite a lot of information and was clearly excited on the topic (as was I!). I'm still recalling things as I managed to collar him for nearly 30 minutes! Allow me to expand a few points. Be advised that he was describing early playtest rules. He's only played it internally with 3 man team. He's currently frantically printing out paper models for an expanded playtest across GW. So bear that in mind:

Like previous Epic versions, it's currently an alternative activation system instead of UGOIGO

The plasma tracker
The plasma tracker was very interesting. Each Titan will have a certain amount of power they generate per turn. They then use the power to move, fire weapons, do damage control and repair voids. There's currently an overload mechanic whereby you can increase the power they generate to do additional actions. However, overtaxing the reactor carries risks, though he didn't expand on the risks.

Titan Datasheets
He described each Titan as having its own unit card with stats (move, turns etc.), plasma power tracker, damage track and weapon hard points. He seemed to be describing a hybrid of 1st Edition (weapon hard points, stats and refits) and 2nd Edition Titan datasheets (hit location and critical damage tables).

An expanded description of his playtest
He described a typical Warlord as having 4 inch movement and a single 90 degree turn. Warhounds having an 8 inch movement and could make two 90 degree turns. In his playtest, he described the final turn with only 1 Warlord facing off against 2 Warhounds, with everything else disabled or destroyed. One Warhound distracted him to the front, and took down the Warlords last remaining Voids. The Warlord then returned fire and blew it away. But, crucially, failed his reactor overload and was not able to take an additional turn to face the other, hidden, Warhound with his thicker frontal armour. This left his rear, and the vulnerable reactor housing, exposed and unshielded. On the Warhound’s turn, it moved out and fired on the rear of an unshielded Warlord and breached its reactor!

Machine Spirit Personalities
This is something that, as he described, was hinted at in the background but something that he'd like to explore within the game. I think ideas are still being developed, but he wanted to give Titan's their own personalities, for example the close-combat equipped Titan turning into a berserker. The idea being that you try to issue the Titan an order but the Machine Spirit, feeling more than a little rage as a result of doing far too much close combat and not having any rest, starts exerting its influencing on the Princeps! He mentioned that during campaigns, you'll want to rest Titans as they become mentally burnt out and start developing undesirable personalities.

Game types
He described the default game as Campaign games and used Necromunda as an example - you have a roster and for a game, you choose entries from your roster. Between games, you can apply for refits and your crews gain experience. Ejecting heads were mooted as an example of the Princeps and Moderatii being able to survive the destruction of their Titan. He described that, similar to Age of Sigmar, they're also planning to have an open play and competitive play option as well for those who just want to plop down some Titans and just have at it.

Background
He really wants to codify Titans. He's currently been scouring archives and has got a lot of material including Jes Goodwin’s ancient sketches.

The future
He got very excited when I mentioned Psi-Titans!
Imperator Titans would only appear if the game proves to be popular.
I asked about Banelord Titans and vehicles. Again, it's all about popularity.
However, he is writing the rules engine so that they are able to add in vehicles or infantry without requiring a whole new set of rules to be written. He described the jarring effect of Titans and Infantry needing two sets of rules in previous games and it's something that he definitely wants to avoid.

**angelofvengeance**

ICYMI:

Nice little video here of some of the stuff from the open day
https://www.facebook.com/ForgeWorldUK/videos/vb.257094630974491/1427400373943905/?type=2&theater

**Iracundus**

Any idea whether they will include things like Eldar Titans (they already make the models) or Ork stuff?

I hope that if they do include infantry and such that they still have a role to play and pose a threat if ignored.

How is the damage tracked? Is it just a hit point like system or is it like the old 2nd edition Epic with hit locations (and possible 1 hit kills if aimed at a weak spot)? A straight hit point system has the weakness of allowing the target to remain completely safe until the last hitpoint is taken off.

I don't agree for example with many of the current Warlord Titan rules. Don't agree with the rules for it being immune to haywire, or being hard to hit for monstrous and gargantuan creatures, particularly gargantuan creatures. The background repeatedly states how for example Tyranids tear apart Titans either through numbers or through their specialized creatures specifically designed for tearing apart vehicles and fortifications. Most haywire weapons would at best be knocking off a mere 1 HP at best, so it would still take numerous hits to accomplish anything, so I don't see vulnerability to haywire being too crippling.

Plus I find the idea of a character doing like Luke Skywalker in the Empire Strikes Back and landing a hit against a preoccupied Warlord appealing. I don't find the height of the Warlord much of a rationale considering we have people with jet packs, or superhuman agility. I could totally see a Solitaire parkouring up the leg of a Warlord to plant a haywire against a vulnerable piece of machinery for example.

The big problem I find is a Warlord (or any other superheavy or Titan) shouldn't be just an immovable and invulnerable block of HP all the way down to the last HP before suddenly blasting apart in a giant fireball. In the old Epic 2nd edition, Warlords were powerful but if someone tried to act like they were invincible and just marched them in front of massed enemy heavy weapons (vehicle and infantry, not just Titan weapons), the massed fire would ablate their shields and destroy them.

**Lord Fishface**

It seems a shame to sound a negative note when Forge World's writers and sculptors are so evidently enthusiastic about nu-Adeptus Titanicus, and when then rules (in concept at least) sound exciting, but on the information available, I don't see myself investing in another very expensive miniature wargame from GW.

The original Adeptus Titanicus/Space Marine games were marvellously cheap, and the simple (by modern standards) miniatures quick and easy to paint to tabletop (base coat, thin wash, light drybrush, add details in boltgun metal) standard. I have very little doubt these were the reasons AT was so popular than 40k in its' day. (Said day being the early years of the 1990s.) While I trust FW will produce an excellent product, I don't see it catching on beyond a small audience of superfans and nostalgic fortysomethings.

**AllSeeingSkink**

aka_mythos wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:
FW used to sell 2x Warhounds at 6mm scale for £19, is they raise that to say £25 for 8mm scale that wouldn't be too bad.

Its important to consider a number of things. The Titans made in previous editions were not properly scaled; they were scaled to what was convenient to produce. For instance my epic Reaver titan measures ~1-3/4" at 6mm scale it should be ~3" tall and in 8mm it should be ~4" tall. The growth in size is volumetric... so a single 8mm titan has more than double the volume of the epic Titan models.

Were they FW Reavers? My FW Warhounds are 1.7" tall which isn't much shorter than it's supposed to be (I think they're supposed to be 14m full size, so 6mm = 1/285 = 1.9").

FW are usually pretty good with their scaling. GW's Epic stuff was pretty random, but the FW Epic stuff was pretty close when you compare it to what's written in the books.

While volume is a cubic relationship with length, I don't think price would increase as a cubic relationship, it's more of a difficulty of manufacture thing. Going from a 1.7" tall model to a 2.3" tall model isn't a big change, the resin pouring tabs are probably going to be the same size, number of components isn't going to change and the difficulty in making them isn't going to change much. As you get larger (like going from 6" model to a 8" model) you're pushing the boundaries of what is easy to manufacture and probably increasing the number of components so price starts going up at a faster rate.

Given the size of the different titans in 8mm relative to different FW 40k models I'd estimate the prices at £30 for a Warhound, £40 for a Reaver, £120 for a Warlord... and all that is probably without weapons.

I wouldn't estimate 30 quid for a Warhound, that'd be over 3 times more than the 6mm models they used to have.

But I wouldn't be surprised either, model prices tend to be erratic and hard to predict.

**reds8n**

https://www.facebook.com/GWWarhammerWorld/videos/1255803617772449/

a -- very -- short vid of the winning titan from the open day.

fair play

**kronk**

The plasma tracker
The plasma tracker was very interesting. Each Titan will have a certain amount of power they generate per turn. They then use the power to move, fire weapons, do damage control and repair voids. There's currently an overload mechanic whereby you can increase the power they generate to do additional actions. However, overtaxing the reactor carries risks, though he didn't expand on the risks.

Titan Datasheets
He described each Titan as having its own unit card with stats (move, turns etc.), plasma power tracker, damage track and weapon hard points. He seemed to be describing a hybrid of 1st Edition (weapon hard points, stats and refits) and 2nd Edition Titan datasheets (hit location and critical damage tables).

Smells like BattleTech/Mechwarrior.

Background
He really wants to codify Titans. He's currently been scouring archives and has got a lot of material including Jes Goodwin’s ancient sketches.

Can't wait!

**ThirstySpaceMan**

Any news on the release of the new super knight? rules for it or price I only have two kidneys, but I must have it. Again any idea of the Acheron knight in mech armor? Is that a upgrade or in house conversion?

**Orock**

When is IA 14 coming? No news?

**Davespil**

Orock wrote:
When is IA 14 coming? No news?

I keep hearing July but that's about it. With July close to being over and no sign of the new book I'm gonna say August at the earliest. That's probably wishful thinking.

**Yodhrin**

Vorian wrote:

EDIT: OK, and lets squish that one right away: the main HH line is expensive, yes. It's also entirely compatible with 40K - if you collect Space Marines you don't have to choose between 40K Marines and 30K Marines in any sense other than which aesthetic you prefer, the models are almost completely interchangable. The rules are also a branch of 40K rules and so don't have any effort-barrier. AT will be a new(to most) system with models that can be used for AT, they two are not equivalent from the logical position of someone with a limited hobby budget seeking to maximise value for money.

So, it's expensive yet still popular.

Glad we agree.

AT has things in its favour and things against it. We will see how all those factor together and how successful it is. At the moment we have nothing but vague guesses at pricing and the other factors are unquantifiable.

So it's expensive and yet popular for particular reasons, which do not apply to AT.

Glad we agree.

And since this is a rumour forum where we discuss rumours evidently speculation is going to be part of any discussion here, but characterising pretty fundamental "it will be a similar size to this thing, so will likely be a similar cost to same thing" logic as "vague guesses" doesn't really work, unless you're willing to sit there with a straight face and argue it's probable that FW would put out a Contemptor-sized model with Contemptor-sized weapons and charge us any significant amount less than a Contemptor to buy it.

Hey, if they do and AT is cheap as chips or even reasonably priced, nobody will be happier than me, but don't pretend either of those outcomes is even fractionally as likely as the speculated figures based on previous product pricing.

**aka_mythos**

It'll of course be nice if it comes out for cheaper, but we have to reason like products will be priced similarly. I think what we'll see are models priced like existing models of the same size and that FW will go out of its way to do introductory bundles. Where those bundles can really soften the blow. Unlike many of the bundles that disappear every couple of months, AT being a relatively new game won't have as large a collection to draw from and mix up to make new bundles so whatever bundles do spring up will likely remain available more indefinitely or until the product line expands enough. With everyone just getting into AT when its released it's viability is more drastically going to depend on those bundles.

**DrRansom**

The introductory bundles could be critical for the game. If you could get two basic warbands (say 50% - 75% of desired points value) + rulebook for under 500 USD, then the game will have a great chance. That could give someone the ability to start two armies, one for himself and one to lend to others to play against.

I do like the promise of more infantry, tanks, aircraft in the future. Forgeworld has gone above and beyond in creating excellent 30k tank designs, but their price makes deploying them in a battle prohibitive. If Forgeworld expands AT, then I can see a mass battle with all the legion light / medium / superheavy tanks alongside mechanichus and titan legions.

**Vorian**

Yodhrin wrote:
Vorian wrote:

EDIT: OK, and lets squish that one right away: the main HH line is expensive, yes. It's also entirely compatible with 40K - if you collect Space Marines you don't have to choose between 40K Marines and 30K Marines in any sense other than which aesthetic you prefer, the models are almost completely interchangable. The rules are also a branch of 40K rules and so don't have any effort-barrier. AT will be a new(to most) system with models that can be used for AT, they two are not equivalent from the logical position of someone with a limited hobby budget seeking to maximise value for money.

So, it's expensive yet still popular.

Glad we agree.

AT has things in its favour and things against it. We will see how all those factor together and how successful it is. At the moment we have nothing but vague guesses at pricing and the other factors are unquantifiable.

So it's expensive and yet popular for particular reasons, which do not apply to AT.

Glad we agree.

And since this is a rumour forum where we discuss rumours evidently speculation is going to be part of any discussion here, but characterising pretty fundamental "it will be a similar size to this thing, so will likely be a similar cost to same thing" logic as "vague guesses" doesn't really work, unless you're willing to sit there with a straight face and argue it's probable that FW would put out a Contemptor-sized model with Contemptor-sized weapons and charge us any significant amount less than a Contemptor to buy it.

Hey, if they do and AT is cheap as chips or even reasonably priced, nobody will be happier than me, but don't pretend either of those outcomes is even fractionally as likely as the speculated figures based on previous product pricing.

I don't expect it to be cheap at all. My point was simply that the pricing alone doesn't mean the game is DoA.

If they sell a quarter the number of Contemptors in Reavers then I think they'll count it as a runaway success.

I'm sure they understand that making it all resin is going to significantly reduce the number of units they'll get out the door.

**aka_mythos**

The fact that they're making the AT models from the digital files for the 40k scale titans... relative to other games and projects there is a lot less effort required and less cost incurred... they won't need to sell nearly as many to be successful for it.

The downside to this approach is that any new Titans or Knight patterns they decide to make for AT will have longer lead times.

**zedmeister**

aka_mythos wrote:
The downside to this approach is that any new Titans or Knight patterns they decide to make for AT will have longer lead times.

Not as bad as it could be, they're using 3D sculpting for Knights, Titans and the rest, so creation of a 28mm Scale Model and then reusing and re-scaling it to 8mm should spread the upfront development costs. Whether they'll pass those, admittedly small, savings on remains to be seen.

**Xanthos**

The Warlord Titan has already been resculpted for 8mm, and printed at that scale. According to Darren, they managed to cut the number of pieces to about 85-90, compared to about 300 for the 28mm Warlord.

Several pieces on the downscaled 28mm Warlord ended up being eggshell thin, but still printed alright, apparently....

Even so, he told me that very hard to tell which one was the 8mm one, and whivh one was the 3D printed downscaled 28mm one, until you picked them up. So apparently the resculpt is very nice...

Along this vein, he also told me, that they ARE using the existing 3D files for knights, tanks and everything, and scaling them down. They already have Knights, Fellblades, Leman Russ, Rhinos, even Marines. And at 8mm size, it is possible to identify the armor mark being worn by the marines.

**zedmeister**

Xanthos wrote:
And at 8mm size, it is possible to identify the armor mark being worn by the marines.

I'd just like to point at that it is possible to have 6mm marines and be able to make them out. The various, ahem, "garage casters" that produce facsimiles of 6mm 30k pieces that you can find through a quick google search show that you can have quite detailed "marines" at 6mm.

The rational for 8mm was to be able to make them out when across the table, approximately 1.6m away (and, I suspect, to scupper the 6mm "garage casters").

**Generalstoner**

As much as GW wants to hammer the recasters, if the game goes to 8mm so will the recasters. It is just a temporary win for them.

**His Master's Voice**

From their perspective, it's probably good enough. They're setting up a new market, instead of re-entering one full of their own discontinued product, alternate manufacturers and re-casters.

**zedmeister**

Generalstoner wrote:
As much as GW wants to hammer the recasters, if the game goes to 8mm so will the recasters. It is just a temporary win for them.

Not sure about that. At the moment, the "garage casters" (can't really call them recasters as they're not recasting anything) are supplying 6mm scale models of modern sculpts - and a quick google of "Epic Horus Heresy" should show you they're very good quality. Should GW start producing modern sculpts, although at 8mm scale, I can a bunch of people moving over to buy the official miniatures for various reasons - background and artwork rich books, a potentially larger playerbase and supporting the IP and company that produce it all.

However, I reckon there will be more than a few refuseniks who will hang onto 6mm because they like that scale or some will even have a "sod GW" attitude.

**Peregrine**

zedmeister wrote:
At the moment, the "garage casters" (can't really call them recasters as they're not recasting anything) are supplying 6mm scale models of modern sculpts - and a quick google of "Epic Horus Heresy" should show you they're very good quality.

Ugh. I think there should be a forum rule that you aren't allowed to mention those models unless you're willing to tell everyone where to buy them. I'm tired of people taunting me with models I can't have!

**aka_mythos**

I'm excited for the 8mm scale titans, but I think potential quality of 8mm infantry is where we will see the greatest contrast and see the tangible difference. When you look at the old epic infantry, they have the detail sharpness, detail quality, and are similarly sized to the old Rogue trader era 28mm marines' heads... rather blobby with a few details that are sharp "enough". Just comparing those heads to current heads is a noticeable difference in manufacturing quality, but the real limitation is the density of detail. The only way to get greater detail is to increase your sculptural real estate. By going to 8mm we move away from amorphous blobs to pieces more like Tyranid Rippers in size and quality. The little genestealer familiar from the genestealer cult is probably a reasonable facilimile of an 8mm genestealer brood lord.

While some scope of the game is lost with the scale change, it is indicative of GW's miniatures first credo. We will go from having models with little or no real detail to infantry models that do.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

I suspect there's also a degree of 'safety' involved as with the best will in the world resin (which is what these are planned for at least initially) is more fragile than plastic and the extra strength provided by slightly increasing the size is probably going to be helpful

Automatically Appended Next Post:
(for infantry that is)