Age of Sigmar News & Rumours page 66 1st dwarf sprue

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**Talys**

Swastakowey wrote:

My point was other companies sell basic normal models because they sell better... this model as you said will sell to a minority which is why the price is so high. I have seen stunning work from many other companies but it's simply not money efficient for other companies to make stupid models like this because lets face it, of the few people who buy this, that small group will at most buy 1 each.

Hence why they aren't common, and why GW has put the price up so high. Which makes it a rip off materially no matter how much you love it.

@ Swastoakowey - I think that any expensive item feels like a ripoff to its non-target audience. For instance, a $6,000 Chanel handbag to someone who doesn't want one will think it's insane; to someone who does, they'll save up for it and lovingly handle it. Obviously, the people who buy them and are happy with their purchases don't feel like they are ripped off.

But it is ok, I'll just disagree and say that to me, it's fair pricing for the type, model, and size of model, and I agree that GW isn't going to sell a ton of them. I personally like big, fancy fantasy and scifi models, so I guess I just expect to pay a premium for them, regardless of who makes them.

**Swastakowey**

Talys wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:

My point was other companies sell basic normal models because they sell better... this model as you said will sell to a minority which is why the price is so high. I have seen stunning work from many other companies but it's simply not money efficient for other companies to make stupid models like this because lets face it, of the few people who buy this, that small group will at most buy 1 each.

Hence why they aren't common, and why GW has put the price up so high. Which makes it a rip off materially no matter how much you love it.

@ Swastoakowey - I think that any expensive item feels like a ripoff to its non-target audience. For instance, a $6,000 Chanel handbag to someone who doesn't want one will think it's insane; to someone who does, they'll save up for it and lovingly handle it. Obviously, the people who buy them and are happy with their purchases don't feel like they are ripped off.

But it is ok, I'll just disagree and say that to me, it's fair pricing for the type, model, and size of model, and I agree that GW isn't going to sell a ton of them. I personally like big, fancy fantasy and scifi models, so I guess I just expect to pay a premium for them, regardless of who makes them.

That argument means nothing. The cost of an island to someone who doesn't want an island means nothing. But the cost of that island can be a rip off to someone who wants an Island yea?

For example, I wouldn't mind buying Vostroyans (or any of the Guard Regiments of old) and I most definitely am their target for it (I have the money, the time and the want) but unfortunately even for me, paying that amount of money for some metal men is a rip off to me despite that gaurd range being among my favorite non historical models. Just because you want something doesn't mean it is no longer a rip off.

It is a rip off, because they have made a model that is not going to sell much (as we have agreed) and have to jack up the price. This does not change because you like the model...

**NinthMusketeer**

I believe the point with the price tag (as with many GW miniatures) is that they would theoretically make more money if they reduced the price for the same miniature. Such as if you make half as much per sale but sell three times as much then you are better off with the reduced price. Its impossible to tell for sure whether or not this is true in this (or any other) models' case so we are left speculating. At the end of the day the model will sell to some people, but there will also be a fair number of people spending money elsewhere (be it on different GW models or a different company) that would have bought the model if it's price was 15% less. Personally I think it is overpriced and I can see why people think it is a rip off, especially compared to other similarly priced 'centerpiece' models from GW; the Mortarch kit has already been mentioned, and the maggoth lord kit comes to mind as well.

[edit] Heck, a Daemon Prince from FW costs less than this guy.

**Talys**

Swastakowey wrote:

That argument means nothing. The cost of an island to someone who doesn't want an island means nothing. But the cost of that island can be a rip off to someone who wants an Island yea?

For example, I wouldn't mind buying Vostroyans (or any of the Guard Regiments of old) and I most definitely am their target for it (I have the money, the time and the want) but unfortunately even for me, paying that amount of money for some metal men is a rip off to me despite that gaurd range being among my favorite non historical models. Just because you want something doesn't mean it is no longer a rip off.

It is a rip off, because they have made a model that is not going to sell much (as we have agreed) and have to jack up the price. This does not change because you like the model...

Well put it another way.

Concert A costs $5 a ticket. Concert B costs $500 a ticket. Is Concert B a ripoff?

The problem is, when you say, "this is a ripoff", you imply two things, one of which is not true, and one of which is a little offensive.

One, that another cheaper product is equivalent. Unless it's actually the same, it's not equivalent, because if it isn't the same, it's a matter of desirability. For an item that is an artistic expression, whether it is a miniature sculpture or a giant painting or music, two things are not equivalent, unless they are reproductions of the same product.

Two, this implies that people who buy such items aren't very bright. After all, what smart person goes and gets ripped off on purpose? There are some of us who just *like* GW product, and think, for whatever reason, that they are superior products. Putting aside technical superiority in plastics tooling and casting as compared to certain other companies, it's mostly just an opinion of, "I like GW stuff a lot" combined with, "I don't think product X is equivalent to product Y."

**Swastakowey**

Talys wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:

That argument means nothing. The cost of an island to someone who doesn't want an island means nothing. But the cost of that island can be a rip off to someone who wants an Island yea?

For example, I wouldn't mind buying Vostroyans (or any of the Guard Regiments of old) and I most definitely am their target for it (I have the money, the time and the want) but unfortunately even for me, paying that amount of money for some metal men is a rip off to me despite that gaurd range being among my favorite non historical models. Just because you want something doesn't mean it is no longer a rip off.

It is a rip off, because they have made a model that is not going to sell much (as we have agreed) and have to jack up the price. This does not change because you like the model...

Well put it another way.

Concert A costs $5 a ticket. Concert B costs $500 a ticket. Is Concert B a ripoff?

The problem is, when you say, "this is a ripoff", you imply two things, one of which is not true, and one of which is a little offensive.

One, that another cheaper product is equivalent. Unless it's actually the same, it's not equivalent, because if it isn't the same, it's a matter of desirability. For an item that is an artistic expression, whether it is a miniature sculpture or a giant painting or music, two things are not equivalent, unless they are reproductions of the same product.

Two, this implies that people who buy such items aren't very bright. After all, what smart person goes and gets ripped off on purpose? There are some of us who just *like* GW product, and think, for whatever reason, that they are superior products. Putting aside technical superiority in plastics tooling and casting as compared to certain other companies, it's mostly just an opinion of, "I like GW stuff a lot" combined with, "I don't think product X is equivalent to product Y."

Yes but now you are changing the situation.

You made the false statement that this model is better than what any other company CAN produce, I merely said why other companies do not waste their time with stuff like this.

However your example is worthless because this model, on it's own, is a rip off. Compare it with other similar models and it gets even more of a rip off even within the GW range. However still, on it's own, it is a rip off. You liking it changes nothing about how much of a rip off it is. Like you said, they rip you off because it is "niche".

**TwilightSparkles**

Dakka should have a script auto detect pointless GW pricing discussions and just remove them into their own forums.

It's. A . Plastic. Figure.

No one needs it. You have a choice. Buy it. Do not.

And if you do buy it then avail yourself of up to 25% discount online......

**Talys**

Swastakowey wrote:

Yes but now you are changing the situation.

You made the false statement that this model is better than what any other company CAN produce, I merely said why other companies do not waste their time with stuff like this.

However your example is worthless because this model, on it's own, is a rip off. Compare it with other similar models and it gets even more of a rip off even within the GW range. However still, on it's own, it is a rip off. You liking it changes nothing about how much of a rip off it is. Like you said, they rip you off because it is "niche".

Well, if you want to go back to technical capabilities, I stand by what I said. There are VERY few companies that could produce a model like this one, in this material. It doesn't matter that you don't want one, because there are others that do. Earlier, you said that nobody else makes them because you don't think anyone wants models like this, but clearly, it's not true based on GW's revenue. I contend that others don't make nice HIPS models like this, because they don't have the capability to do so, or the volume or distribution to make it profitable. If PP could make all its colossals and gargantuans plastic and economically feasible, I'm sure they would, because their players would absolutely go nuts over it.

The models I compare it to are Mortarchs, Treeman Ancient, Nagash -- and it's correctly priced compared to them. This is not a Prosecutor with a few swirls under it, as some people seem to think.

Every single niche product that's more expensive than a non-niche product is not a ripoff >.< I mean, at the face of it, that just sounds ridiculous.

Anyways, we can go round and round, so I'll just leave it at that, and go back to my Land Raider. Which is about the same price

**Eggheart**

TwilightSparkles wrote:
Dakka should have a script auto detect pointless GW pricing discussions and just remove them into their own forums.

It's. A . Plastic. Figure.

No one needs it. You have a choice. Buy it. Do not.

And if you do buy it then avail yourself of up to 25% discount online......

Yes, it seems rather pointless.
I think that whether something is a rip-off or not is subjective. It all depends on how much you value your money, and how much you value the item under consideration.

**Swastakowey**

Talys wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:

Yes but now you are changing the situation.

You made the false statement that this model is better than what any other company CAN produce, I merely said why other companies do not waste their time with stuff like this.

However your example is worthless because this model, on it's own, is a rip off. Compare it with other similar models and it gets even more of a rip off even within the GW range. However still, on it's own, it is a rip off. You liking it changes nothing about how much of a rip off it is. Like you said, they rip you off because it is "niche".

Well, if you want to go back to technical capabilities, I stand by what I said. There are VERY few companies that could produce a model like this one, in this material. It doesn't matter that you don't want one, because there are others that do. Earlier, you said that nobody else makes them because you don't think anyone wants models like this, but clearly, it's not true based on GW's revenue. I contend that others don't make nice HIPS models like this, because they don't have the capability to do so, or the volume or distribution to make it profitable. If PP could make all its colossals and gargantuans plastic and economically feasible, I'm sure they would, because their players would absolutely go nuts over it.

The models I compare it to are Mortarchs, Treeman Ancient, Nagash -- and it's correctly priced compared to them. This is not a Prosecutor with a few swirls under it, as some people seem to think.

Every single niche product that's more expensive than a non-niche product is not a ripoff >.< I mean, at the face of it, that just sounds ridiculous.

Anyways, we can go round and round, so I'll just leave it at that, and go back to my Land Raider. Which is about the same price

Really? See aren't you the guy that made all these claims about Gundams without knowing about Gundams only to find out you were... wrong.

See I know exactly what you are gonna say after seeing this model below... "it's not Sci Fi or GW so I don't like it so it doesn't count!"

Spoiler:

I would love to see a GW model ever get to that sort of technical amazement that I see from so many companies out there.

ANYWAY...

It is clear your ONLY argument for this models price is because it is niche, which doesn't explain it's price by the way because niche merely means targeting a particular audience (like... most companies do?). In Fact you have said it costs more for being niche (whatever that means) and then go to say that price increase for no reason does not make it a rip off?

I get it dude, you like it, but being contrarian for the sake of it gets pretty silly.

Enjoy the Land raider, I too have models to paint. Agree to Disagree I guess.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Swas, you said other companies make plain models (boring models by my standards) because making something like this was stupid. That's pretty ridiculous. GW gets away with a lot of terrible behavior because they are one of the few companies that actually does produce minis that aren't plain, safe and boring, in plastic.

Now, I agree the price is wayyyyy too high for the Celestant Prime, but I'm very happy that GW still makes fun miniatures, even if I won't buy them. Who else is even trying to do that in plastic?

**Ferrum_Sanguinis**

Wasn't the entire point of AoS to be a lower entry cost game in sharp contrast to the massive buy in cost of WHFB?

...Or was that just wishful thinking on our end?

**Swastakowey**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Swas, you said other companies make plain models (boring models by my standards) because making something like this was stupid. That's pretty ridiculous. GW gets away with a lot of terrible behavior because they are one of the few companies that actually does produce minis that aren't plain, safe and boring, in plastic.

Now, I agree the price is wayyyyy too high for the Celestant Prime, but I'm very happy that GW still makes fun miniatures, even if I won't buy them. Who else is even trying to do that in plastic?

No because something like this isn't going to sell very well was my reasoning. I said that because he seems to think other companies can't. Im not annoyed they make them, im more annoyed at the price and then the people who try pull it off like that price is reasonable. Other than that I agree to an extent with what you say yea.

Other companies don't make boring models though, not at all.

**Talys**

Swastakowey wrote:

Really? See aren't you the guy that made all these claims about Gundams without knowing about Gundams only to find out you were... wrong.

I actually did quite a bit of research on them. My thoughts here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/660038.page#8078359

I am NOT going to Gundam this thread, suffice to say, I'm not wrong about Gundam models, and people who like them should just buy them.

Swastakowey wrote:

I get it dude, you like it, but being contrarian for the sake of it gets pretty silly.

Enjoy the Land raider, I too have models to paint. Agree to Disagree I guess.

Defending products you like, and stating that you think that prices are in line with other comparable models in the series is not being contrarian. It actually makes more sense than hopping on every week to say that products are too expensive for a line that you don't like

I'm going to guess that for the last 100 weeks you thought GW's prices were ripoffs, and the next 100 weeks, they'll also be ripoffs. I'll probably think that most of them are expensive, but in line with the market prices of such models (note, something can be expensive, even unaffordable, without being a ripoff). I will will no doubt think some things are a great deal and some things are less so.

But anyways... enjoy painting your stuff too, and let's try to get back to N&R before we get some mod smackdown

**Swastakowey**

Talys wrote:
But anyways... enjoy painting your stuff too, and let's try to get back to N&R before we get some mod smackdown

Sounds good man.

**ImAGeek**

Talys wrote:
Jehan-reznor wrote:
I don't care how the Pro GW camp spins it 80$ for 54mm miniature with a few swirly bits is to steep, could get a nice 54mm or 70mm figure for that price but it will be no GW off course

Spoiler:

Well, first of all, I wouldn't paint that miniature if you gave it to me for free. It has no draw to me at all, because there's nothing at all about it that's magical or futuristic, and anything that doesn't meet one of those two criteria is automatically excluded from my projects list.

But really... Celestant Prime is a nice miniature. It is an amazing technical feat that most companies could not produce and it is not a 7cm miniature, lol. That's like not counting the wings of a dragon or angel as a part of the model -- nevermind the beautiful base. If you think it's ugly or overpriced, don't buy it. I actually thought it would be Nagash-priced, rather than Mortarch-priced, so the pricing is a pleasant surprise.

If you play Sigmarites, at that price and with those rules, it will be an auto-buy. If you collect Sigmarites, at that price, it will *probably* be an auto-buy. If you don't like Sigmarites, nothing GW could have done would have enticed you to buy it anyways.

I really don't think it's as amazing a technical feat as you make it out to be. It's just swirly plastic magic, Wyrd have plenty of examples of swirly plastic magic for example.

**Fenrir Kitsune**

That floating bloke is very 40K. When is AoS gonna get a release that's something other than marines or chaos? Wheres the OTHER new designs?

**MacMuckles**

Is this Prime going to be the last AoS release for the time being or is there still more? September is approaching fast and rumours said either Tau or Tzeentch, yeah?

**angelofvengeance**

MacMuckles wrote:
Is this Prime going to be the last AoS release for the time being or is there still more? September is approaching fast and rumours said either Tau or Tzeentch, yeah?

At this point, who knows? Though we have got some idea of the near future releases. Air brush paints, a 30K era game (which we've seen sprues for)

**MongooseMatt**

MacMuckles wrote:
Is this Prime going to be the last AoS release for the time being or is there still more? September is approaching fast and rumours said either Tau or Tzeentch, yeah?

Going by the novels, I would say a Banner Guy and a Horny Guy are in the wings.

**zreef**

I like the prime model a lot. I have a feeling it will look even better in person, all of these models tend to. It also provides a nice centerpiece model for the army.

I quite like the sigmarines and I am looking forward to getting them fully painted and on the table.

**Jehan-reznor**

Ah Talys, i know you like GW a lot (and that is an understatement

) But even you should agree that for people, who are not infatuated with GW,that this is quite steep for a single figure that is not as massive as a Glokin or as big as Nagash.

For 80$ i'll could just get a 54mm knight with some swirly putty and i have my Prime.

If you are willing to pay that OK, but i think a lot of people will not.

**toasteroven**

Honestly, GW do produce impressive looking miniatures, even when the style is not to my taste.

But these last releases have just reinforced for me the fact that I am not their target audience. The prices are simply too high for me. And the design seems to be more and more directed at display, rather than functionality and gameplay.

And I guess I prefer those two things.

I'm not trying to insult anyone else's taste, what I'm saying is that I prefer simple and even slightly ugly models for a price I can afford. I had kind of hoped that AoS would really mean a move to more affordable pieces, but it looks like it's not going to be that way.

**migooo**

Talys wrote:
Swastakowey wrote:
To be 100% honest I think most companies don't make crap like this new sigmarine because there isn't a huge amount of sales to be had from it. How many of these are likely to sell? Not too many I imagine. How many rank and file men are people likely to buy? Hundreds depending on the game.

Its pretty simple really. Thats why other companies make sensible models in normal poses, because that's what most people want/need. Of course this depends on the game.

That's why I can buy Napoleonic soldiers in plastic for 1 dollar a model, but this sigmarine will likely cost 150 + Napoleonic soldiers (im guessing the NZ price here). Because GW doesn't expect to sell many of these and needs to make their investment back, but the people who make generic normal guys know people will buy decent amounts of them so they can be reasonably priced.

I purchased a 54mm Samurai from a guy at Weta Workshop for 40NZD (26 roughly US) and I think it is amazing compared to this thing. Samurai have amazing clothing and very intricate stitching on their armour and I assume the guy spent a loooong time hand sculpting the original model. I could be a lot of these for the price of one fancy Sigmarine.

It's not a stretch or silly to say this new model from GW is over priced at all, because it is. You liking it doesn't stop it being a rip off, you are just willing to overlook the rip off.

I don't know if there's actually data to support there being more historical models being sold than GW models. In my area, there's *one* store that sells historical models (as opposed to maybe a half dozen that sell GW stuff), and I am positive it sells way more 40k models than historicals, or anything else other than Magic the Gathering. Certainly, you are right that this *one model* is not going to sell better than any number of models sold for historicals (because after all, each player only field ONE), but the model's price is pretty consistent with other GW models, which was my point. IE - they aren't jacking up the price because the model has good rules, and it belongs to a faction that is undoubtedly popular with AoS fans. Also, it's not like Treeman Ancient, where you can field multiples, "justifying" a lower price.

And sorry, I disagree that it's a rip off. Something is priced correctly if the people who want it are willing to pay that price. It doesn't really matter what the rest of the world thinks of it... because they didn't want it anyways. It also doesn't matter if there are alternatives, if the people who want the item don't really want the alternatives

But anyhow, if you ARE right, and these are expensive models because there aren't many people buying them, then that's also not a ripoff, because if you want something that's a niche item, you'll always pay more.

There is lots of data if you LOOK for it GW produces a niche product. And I'm aware of more stores in the UK ( okay they only do mail order but still ) that only cater to this.

GW pay a pittance to produce each figure it's not like some guy in his garage knocking out a few hundred or thousand . Would you say Beats by Dr Dre is priced well?

Look I was going to stay quiet in this but seriously we get that you like GW we all do that's why we're here. They can still be overpriced for what they are.

**angelofvengeance**

Oh god. Can we take this discussion elsewhere? This is a N&R thread, not a GW prices debate.

**ImAGeek**

There's a little yellow report button if you think a post is off topic.

**toasteroven**

I'm sorry if my post got too off topic. I was just trying to relate how the rumors were making me feel about the hobby in general.

I do hope we see more of the sylvaneth again. There could be some more variety there, I think.

**ImAGeek**

toasteroven wrote:
I'm sorry if my post got too off topic. I was just trying to relate how the rumors were making me feel about the hobby in general.

I do hope we see more of the sylvaneth again. There could be some more variety there, I think.

I think yours was definitely fine. I just hope we see something different soon, because the Sigmarites and Chaos is really getting dull now, and I'd like to see the direction they take some of the other races in.

**RoninXiC**

I don't like him.

He's fast. His wings just dont work from a miniature concept (rays of light cannot be done with plastic). The swirls are stupid.

My main problem with him is his pose. He's wielding THE STRONGEST WEAPON EVEEEERRRR... and it looks nothing like it. If there has ever been a miniature that would've deserved the "weapon straight up in the air" pose.. that's the one. His sceptar now looks as important than his hammer.

And that price.. wow lol no way.

**migooo**

I'm not impressed I honestly think the swirling mess detracts from the figure.

For a character he seems just as bland as the other Sigmar guys.

**angelofvengeance**

migooo wrote:
I'm not impressed I honestly think the swirling mess detracts from the figure.

For a character he seems just as bland as the other Sigmar guys.

I think if he had a different paint job to the studio one, he'd look amazing. I think all too often, the studio scheme can make a model look like gak.