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 Pojko wrote:

That said, I really don't understand why people think that a plastic mini should be any cheaper.

Because Games Workshop used to make a point of saying that their switching from metal to plastic models was a conscious decision in order to save money both in production and for the buyer. And back in the day it showed. The 2nd edition metal Tactical Squad cost around $35. The new plastic, bigger, more detailed and more intricate plastic Tactical Marines at the dawn of the 3rd edition cost I believe $17.99 originally.

These were the prices in the same year, keep in mind. Superior plastic squads and regiments used to be half the cost of their older metal counterparts. Now GW charges more for plastic than their older inferior metal units ever cost.

Amen!
Naughty GW, some of us still remember all your promises

 Talys wrote:

That said, I really don't understand why people think that a plastic mini should be any cheaper.

Are you drunk right now? Let's walk through this slowly -


It is PLASTIC. The plastic costs GW less than TWO US DOLLARS/POUND. They are making over 1000% profit on each box they sell, more on the larger kits.

Not only that but compared to other plastic products, mainly gundam models, GW miniatures are pretty inferior. Even the absolute smallest gundam models are fully poseable and don't even require glue to complete. From there, it starts looking worse and worse for GW by comparison. A Wraithknight is $115 USD. I can buy a gundam the exact same size at that price that has lights in it. It [/b]comes pre-wired with working LEDs[/b] and all I need is a battery. Not only that, but the plastic used for gundams is more or less better than the plastic GW uses.

So in short, GW minis are
1. More expensive than they should be by a huge margin
2. Inferior to other, highly intricate models, both in terms of complexity and plastic used.
3. Not worth the price we're being forced to pay for them

So please, don't attempt to say that GW's prices are anything short of absurd. You might be willing to pay those prices, but they are still absurdly high.

No one's forced to pay for them... The only reason they're as high as they are is because people voluntarily have been paying for them.

There are thousands of things for sale that cost pennies in actual material and have list price of three, four digits or more.

Those are really nice looking models.

The modeler in me is like, "Screw it! Go buy them cuz they look cool!"

If only money was not an issue, like, ever...

Price aside, I kinda like them. I'd love to see them in the "flesh". One thing I appreciate about not needing to rank up anymore is that things can get pretty dynamic with their Fantasy models. I don't think they've consistently hit it out of the park with the new found "freedom of motion" but I like it as a general direction.

As to the bickering about price- I get being upset about the GW pricing, but I don't get being upset that someone doesn't share your take on the perceived value of an item.

 McNinja wrote:

 Talys wrote:

That said, I really don't understand why people think that a plastic mini should be any cheaper.

Are you drunk right now? Let's walk through this slowly -


It is PLASTIC. The plastic costs GW less than TWO US DOLLARS/POUND. They are making over 1000% profit on each box they sell, more on the larger kits.

Not only that but compared to other plastic products, mainly gundam models, GW miniatures are pretty inferior. Even the absolute smallest gundam models are fully poseable and don't even require glue to complete. From there, it starts looking worse and worse for GW by comparison. A Wraithknight is $115 USD. I can buy a gundam the exact same size at that price that has lights in it. It [/b]comes pre-wired with working LEDs[/b] and all I need is a battery. Not only that, but the plastic used for gundams is more or less better than the plastic GW uses.

So in short, GW minis are
1. More expensive than they should be by a huge margin
2. Inferior to other, highly intricate models, both in terms of complexity and plastic used.
3. Not worth the price we're being forced to pay for them

So please, don't attempt to say that GW's prices are anything short of absurd. You might be willing to pay those prices, but they are still absurdly high.

By that logic, the $75 digital download of Halo 5 cost Microsoft $0.0001 to upload to my Xbox, so surely I am being ripped off, since I could have gotten a box and a disc that cost $1 to produce.... right? Especially when I can go to Steam and buy a game that might be just as fun for $5. That also costs $0.0001 to upload to my PC.

In my original post, I was basically saying that I don't get why people would prefer (or pay more) for metal miniatures like the chaos knights over their plastic counterparts, because unless you're melting them down to make body armor in some post-apocalyptic future, they're superior in pretty much every meaningful way. I wasn't suggesting that they're cheap and I even said that even though I liked the models, I wasn't going to buy them unless it was some boxing day special, as that they are too expensive to just buy and stick on the shelf (as Chaos isn't really my thing).

If you don't like GW minis and don't think they're worth the price... don't buy them I don't understand the, "Not worth the price we're being forced to pay for them" thing, because nobody's forcing you to do anything. If you think they're beautiful and you really want them, go at it. It's pointless to compare them to Gundam (as has been done endlessly in zillions of other threads); they're *different*, the people who like one or the other will simply buy that. For me, blinking LED lights in an 14" model that I spent 100 hours painting sounds very unappealing, but hey, if you want that... there's plenty of like-minded people, and the kits can be readily had.

Wow, still trotting out the same old arguments then Talys?

I don't even get the comparison you're trying to draw with video games, but as they're a completely different medium with a completely different cost structure, I think it's fair to say that's irrelevant.

Much better to compare like for like, hmmm? So, by all means draw comparisons with some other HIPs kits and see if you can make these look good value.

As for the lame old "if you don't like it dot buy it" schtick, nobody gives a gak whether you like it or not, look at the points made, it isn't an aesthetic comparison, it isn't about what you like, it's about more detailed, superior quality, more intricate, larger models being produced for a lower price. That's nothing to do with how it looks, that's based on objective, measurable, tangible qualities.

 McNinja wrote:

Are you drunk right now? Let's walk through this slowly -


It is PLASTIC. The plastic costs GW less than TWO US DOLLARS/POUND. They are making over 1000% profit on each box they sell, more on the larger kits.

This really is the most childish argument anyone could possibly be making when this topic comes up.

He's hyperbolic, but the core of his argument is valid.

 Azreal13 wrote:
He's hyperbolic, but the core of his argument is valid.

Ignoring the value of everything other than the cost of the materials is not a valid argument. Couple that with mention of GW forcing anyone to do anything and we've shifted into the realm of screeching lunacy.

Posability, snap fit assembly and lights are not something I value in a miniature; so the rational portion of the argument is at best subjective.

The vitriol expressed for people that still enjoy Warhammer is pretty sickening honestly.

Not valuing them and them not being an indication of greater intricacy, and therefore logically a more expensive design process, and still maintaining a better retail price are not the same thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Equally, the vitriol is being expressed, if at all, for a company persistently trying to gouge more and more money out of fewer and fewer people, not the people themselves.

I side with Mc Ninja about the crazy cost.

But I also see Talys point that no one is forcing people to buy the models.

As a long time fan, I am getting scared of GW prices and what they might ultimately do to the company, ever day newer model company's are popping up with lower prices and models with good quality.
GW might make some bad ass models hands down, but the game is heading in a direction of exclusion where only a few people will be able to purchase their models.

The really scary part is, what if they are raising prices on models to close the gap of lost profit?

 Azreal13 wrote:
Wow, still trotting out the same old arguments then Talys?

It's really the same argument, so yes, the logic hasn't changed from last week You're perfectly free to disagree, of course.

 Azreal13 wrote:
I don't even get the comparison you're trying to draw with video games, but as they're a completely different medium with a completely different cost structure, I think it's fair to say that's irrelevant.

The comparison is simple: in both cases, the cost of raw materials relative to the selling price is negligible. Archaon is $200; whether he were made of pewter, lead, plastic or resin is totally irrelevant from the stand point of profit margin. And unless you're going to melt it down, what does it matter what the material *cost* the manufacturer?

 Azreal13 wrote:
Much better to compare like for like, hmmm? So, by all means draw comparisons with some other HIPs kits and see if you can make these look good value.

That's totally off topic from this thread. This thread is about AoS models and, at the moment, the new Chaos knights, not a rehash of Gundam or whatever.

 Azreal13 wrote:
As for the lame old "if you don't like it dot buy it" schtick, nobody gives a gak whether you like it or not, look at the points made, it isn't an aesthetic comparison, it isn't about what you like, it's about more detailed, superior quality, more intricate, larger models being produced for a lower price. That's nothing to do with how it looks, that's based on objective, measurable, tangible qualities.

It's not lame at all. The person I was responding to said that GW was FORCING us to buy these allegedly overpriced models. To which I responded, they're not forcing us to do anything at all.

The objective, measurable, tangible qualities of a toy or collectible or piece of art (depending on how you view your models) is not the same as an ounce of gold or a kitchen appliance. For these things, it comes down to: Do I want it? Do I want it more than alternatives? Do I want it enough for its price? Can I afford it?

If the answer is to all 4 is yes, then it will be a buy; otherwise, it won't be. It doesn't matter how intricate or hard to produce or technically awesome the skulls are, if you're turned off by skulls everywhere, you won't like a model with skulls everywhere, technical qualities be damned.

I honestly don't get why people defend GW's pricing practices. It's one thing to think for yourself that its "worth" the money but competitively speaking it only hurts them in the long run. Unless you admit that their pricing structure is unreasonable it ends up sending the message that what they're doing is A-Okay which means the continual price increases limits the entry of others into the game and prevents them from improving in their offerings.

I have a friend who absolutely loves Chaos and adores the new Archaon and his special knights, after seeing the prices though he balked and had to pass on them. He loves Chaos, but not at the cost of a significant amount of his current paycheque. GW is missing out on a lot of impulse buy money by taking this route. Just because its a skirmish game doesn't mean you can just go willy nilly on the pricing.

 GraywarTS wrote:
The really scary part is, what if they are raising prices on models to close the gap of lost profit?

Unless I'm misunderstanding you, I'm pretty sure this is exactly what's happening. GW perceives that its customer base is shrinking, or at least the number of people spending big on its type of hobby, so its solution is to raise the prices. Note that I'm not endorsing this; it just looks, to me, like writing on the wall that this is GW's playbook.


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 Grimskul wrote:
I honestly don't get why people defend GW's pricing practices. It's one thing to think for yourself that its "worth" the money but competitively speaking it only hurts them in the long run. Unless you admit that their pricing structure is unreasonable it ends up sending the message that what they're doing is A-Okay which means the continual price increases limits the entry of others into the game and prevents them from improving in their offerings.

I have a friend who absolutely loves Chaos and adores the new Archaon and his special knights, after seeing the prices though he balked and had to pass on them. He loves Chaos, but not at the cost of a significant amount of his current paycheque. GW is missing out on a lot of impulse buy money by taking this route. Just because its a skirmish game doesn't mean you can just go willy nilly on the pricing.

I think it's off-topic, but I believe that in the absence of GW, the next big popular game system would simply end up doing the same thing -- charging as much as it could for its models to maximize profit. It's not that I enjoy continuous price increases (I clearly would prefer cheaper products), I just have come to expect this of the *entire world* -- people charging what they can get away with, especially when they have the most popular product. Competition is healthy though, and should keep various companies honest.

It works both ways, of course -- with GW increasing prices, PP and Wyrd have less resistance to raising their prices too.

I completely understand how a lot of these models are just too expensive for some people, especially people who aren't already invested in the game or faction, and if you don't attract new folks, that's not a good thing. But anyways, looking at the Chaos Knights in isolation, I would have been shocked if they had been released for much cheaper.

People keep using the "you aren't forced to buy them/obviously someone is buying them" argument to justify the cost, but three years of falling sales tell us that enough people are leaving GW behind to outweigh new and continuing customers. Suffice it to say the price scheme does not make sense from a business standpoint on that ground alone. Further, while only a fraction of the cost for plastic is in the initial startup once the designs are finalized and molds are made that small fraction becomes a main cost factor going forward (as compared to more expensive materials). When a given sculpt gets used for a decade or more, the difference in material price becomes progressively more relevant to the model price. We also know that plastic is cheaper for GW since for quite a while the plastic models were notably lower in price than the metal/finecast ones and there is no way they would have been selling at a significantly lower margin for that long. Finally, we can see from other companies in both wargaming and related industries that it is possible to market these models at a profit for much lower prices.

It all adds up to the price being excessive and a losing proposition for everyone involved, and there is no justifying that.

Sidenote: I would gladly give up GW's current model quality in exchange for their prices from 10-15 years ago. Above a certain threshold I don't care how nice the model looks because it is too expensive to justify the purchase.

the gundam argument about them being better quality is so idiotic. They are in no way comparable. At the very least, point to Perry miniatures, who makes excellent models (not as good as GW, but excellent nontheless imo) at a really good price. But I agree that these GW prices are absurd.

The pricing really, really, really reminds me of DC and Marvel's ongoing decline.

When I was a kid they'd sell 300k copies of a comic for 50 cents to a 1 dollar.

Today they sell 30k or less for $4-$5.

They're chasing an ever shrinking market by charging the remaining addicts more.

(of course there's more to it, Marvel makes more with one successful film than they can in 50 years of comic publishing, plus they both have robust TPB and digital sales which are not revealed but my basic point remains)

Retail really hurts gw's bottom line and is a big part of why these kits are as expensive as they are. Gw spends between 20 and 30 million pounds a year on rent and salaries alone. There is also heating, electricity, shipping, store shelving etc

That means at least 2 million £20 purchases a year just to break even. Most of these costs are something that no other company in the same business has to bear.

I personally think that Gw should get out of retail, reduce all prices by 30% and hit the convention circuit hard, but they will never do this.Its a shame, because these are lovely models.

As a side note if they released one of these as a hero monster model for £20 (the same price as a worlock on jetbike) I wonder if the reaction would be the same.

Chikout wrote:
Retail really hurts gw's bottom line and is a big part of why these kits are as expensive as they are. Gw spends between 20 and 30 million pounds a year on rent and salaries alone. There is also heating, electricity, shipping, store shelving etc

That means at least 2 million £20 purchases a year just to break even. Most of these costs are something that no other company in the same business has to bear.

I personally think that Gw should get out of retail, reduce all prices by 30% and hit the convention circuit hard, but they will never do this.Its a shame, because these are lovely models.

As a side note if they released one of these as a hero monster model for £20 (the same price as a worlock on jetbike) I wonder if the reaction would be the same.

This is not necessarly true. The profit margin on what they sell in their stores is probably twice as much as what they get from selling to LGS. It all depend on wether the number of unit they sell in the GW stores is enough to compensate for the cost of these stores.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
People keep using the "you aren't forced to buy them/obviously someone is buying them" argument to justify the cost, but three years of falling sales tell us that enough people are leaving GW behind to outweigh new and continuing customers. Suffice it to say the price scheme does not make sense from a business standpoint on that ground alone. Further, while only a fraction of the cost for plastic is in the initial startup once the designs are finalized and molds are made that small fraction becomes a main cost factor going forward (as compared to more expensive materials). When a given sculpt gets used for a decade or more, the difference in material price becomes progressively more relevant to the model price. We also know that plastic is cheaper for GW since for quite a while the plastic models were notably lower in price than the metal/finecast ones and there is no way they would have been selling at a significantly lower margin for that long. Finally, we can see from other companies in both wargaming and related industries that it is possible to market these models at a profit for much lower prices.

It all adds up to the price being excessive and a losing proposition for everyone involved, and there is no justifying that.

Sidenote: I would gladly give up GW's current model quality in exchange for their prices from 10-15 years ago. Above a certain threshold I don't care how nice the model looks because it is too expensive to justify the purchase.

The price scheme makes sense if you factor in the abysmal state of AoS sales. They still need to recoup the cost of the model design, mold design, and mold fabrication. That still tens of thousands of dollars. When the CHS case showed the vast majority of models sales are in the firsts month, all that cost has to be made back right away. The price can be low when you can sell several thousand units, but not when they are likely expecting to only sell a couple hundred.

For the price of three boxes of knights, you can get two boxes of Betrayal, which is an entire army. That shows you how few units they expect to move of the knights. It is likely being put out in a desperate attempt to cover cost and hope they sell some.

 Talys wrote:


If you don't like GW minis and don't think they're worth the price... don't buy them I don't understand the, "Not worth the price we're being forced to pay for them" thing, because nobody's forcing you to do anything. If you think they're beautiful and you really want them, go at it. It's pointless to compare them to Gundam (as has been done endlessly in zillions of other threads); they're *different*, the people who like one or the other will simply buy that. For me, blinking LED lights in an 14" model that I spent 100 hours painting sounds very unappealing, but hey, if you want that... there's plenty of like-minded people, and the kits can be readily had.

What I meant was that if you want to buy the models, and you want to use those models, you have to pay those prices. Obviously no one is making you purchase them in the first place, but if you do purchase them you have to buy them at that price.

There are far more factors going into the costs of actually developing and creating the models. Marketing (not that GW does a lot of that) paying the various retail staff, renting physical locations, paying the writers, designers, etc.

The point is that GW could be selling more for a lower price and turning more of a profit because more people are buying the models.

As for the video games comparison, costs are completely different. Not only that, but there are constant sales, prices are lowered over time, and even the newest consoles are sold at little more than double the cost of a Stormsurge. Think about that. I can absolutely guarantee that developing, creating, and shipping an Xbox One or PS4 took far more time, energy, and resources than creating any model GW has put out in the last few months.


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 silent25 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
People keep using the "you aren't forced to buy them/obviously someone is buying them" argument to justify the cost, but three years of falling sales tell us that enough people are leaving GW behind to outweigh new and continuing customers. Suffice it to say the price scheme does not make sense from a business standpoint on that ground alone. Further, while only a fraction of the cost for plastic is in the initial startup once the designs are finalized and molds are made that small fraction becomes a main cost factor going forward (as compared to more expensive materials). When a given sculpt gets used for a decade or more, the difference in material price becomes progressively more relevant to the model price. We also know that plastic is cheaper for GW since for quite a while the plastic models were notably lower in price than the metal/finecast ones and there is no way they would have been selling at a significantly lower margin for that long. Finally, we can see from other companies in both wargaming and related industries that it is possible to market these models at a profit for much lower prices.

It all adds up to the price being excessive and a losing proposition for everyone involved, and there is no justifying that.

Sidenote: I would gladly give up GW's current model quality in exchange for their prices from 10-15 years ago. Above a certain threshold I don't care how nice the model looks because it is too expensive to justify the purchase.

The price scheme makes sense if you factor in the abysmal state of AoS sales. They still need to recoup the cost of the model design, mold design, and mold fabrication. That still tens of thousands of dollars. When the CHS case showed the vast majority of models sales are in the firsts month, all that cost has to be made back right away. The price can be low when you can sell several thousand units, but not when they are likely expecting to only sell a couple hundred.

For the price of three boxes of knights, you can get two boxes of Betrayal, which is an entire army. That shows you how few units they expect to move of the knights. It is likely being put out in a desperate attempt to cover cost and hope they sell some.

Maybe if they stopped pricing people out of the hobby, they wouldn't have to hope. They would just sell stuff. 40k could be huge, but GW is holding itself back.

AUD$170 for 3 minis? Feth off...

I'll pick up a box.

If its a dynamic, multi-option kit, maybe a second to bitz it out.

So does this mean the old knights will go away? If so i'll have to pick some up.

 Chief wrote:
So does this mean the old knights will go away? If so i'll have to pick some up.

No. These aren't Chaos Knights. They're a new unit.

$120 CAD?!?!?!? This has to be the April Fool's issue. If not, I'm gonna be sick...

Ok thanks a bunch =)

Those prices are straight from the Grand Marshal of Dumb Business Choices. Pricing injection molded kits to the stratosphere plays against the strength of injection molded plastic, namely, the ridiculously cheap repeat costs of production (something like 20 cents a frame in plastic and electricity).

Age of Who Cares? will never become a money making machine for GW because you cannot aggressively expand a game where 3 guys cost $100, or even 5 guys cost $50. You can only sell to a tiny fragment of a tiny hobby. Unless my income goes up substantially, there is no chance I will be buying anything GW sells at the new (or even oldish) price points, even thought I think lots of the new stuff is really cool. I think a lot of people are in the same boat. GW could blast the competition into oblivion by marketing aggressively to average income/willingness to pay chumps like me, and leveraging the fact that they could sell the worlds best figures at the worlds best prices. GW could sell their stuff at Perry prices. Who on earth would even give Mantic/Warlord/Wargames Factory/Dreamforge, etc. etc. a second look if they could get GW stuff for 50c a figure? Heck, even $1 a pop wold have me back on the wagon in a heartbeat.

GW's tooling is in house, this means they should be able to make a tool for way less than any of the companies going through WGF or Renedra, and with the advantage of their enormous (relatively) brand awareness and hundreds of hobby shops, they should be able to just sell the competition into oblivion. I could have talked so many friends into wargaming if I could have pointed to any of the Warhammer armies they liked and said "You can get started for $75" (like lots of other great games) instead of "You can get started for... uh.... nevermind."

puree wrote:
What's raw materials got to do with retail price. The raw materials involved in many creative type industries are minuscule, it is things like demand, supply, perceived value by rational consumers and other such stuff in western style economic theories etc that determines 'correct' market price, not raw materials particularly..

People need to stop pretending that talking about the relative cheapness of plastic production means the cost of the material and nothing else.

Plastic is cheaper because the actual plastic is cheaper, sure, but it's also cheaper because of the vast, vast, literally order-of-magnitude-vast reduction in labour costs and other time savings over other production methods; you can sculpt on the computer making revisions in real-time and port the finished 3d model right into the milling machine software to make the moulds(as opposed to sculpting traditionally, which takes longer, or having to insert an intermediate step involving 3d printing initial masters then making production masters from them before you can even begin casting product), the moulds take literally years to wear out(where resin & metal moulds need to be replaced regularly, taking time away from production and adding labour costs), the casting is largely automated and can produce at a far, far higher volume than metal or resin for a fraction of the cost.

Even accounting for "perceived" value, many of GW's prices are mental, not just because they're so hilariously out of proportion relative to the cost of production, but because they're so ludicrously out of proportion compared to GW's own existing products. As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread, we already have a unit of large plastic monstrous cavalry for a Chaos faction, Bloodcrushers, and they're half the cost of these models. Dragon Ogres appear to also be similarly sized, and are also only slightly more than half the price. A consumer might be willing to pay such a mental price, but even assuming neoliberal orthodoxy as a baseline there's no way to argue that decision is rational.

In the end though, the "correct" market price is the one people will pay, so we'll have to wait and see if this hilarious gambit of GW's to double-down on the "sell less for more" strategy that has been doing so well for them of late will work.