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If we are using what we see in the "normal" gameplay levels, then the SM wins by a landslide, because even Shep can tank a hammer-hit shieldless on normal. A power-armored Marine would mop the floor with this theoretical krogan, probably using the hammer as a handle inserted into uncomfortable places on the space-crab.

Krogan stats (test stage, not yet official)

In 40k terms

Ws 3-5
Bs 2-3
S 4-6
T 3-5
I 2-3
A 2-3
W 2-3
Ld 7-9
Save 4+, 5+ fnp

Krogan are roughly comparable to a marine, elders and battlemasters are physically tougher but lack the diversity and save of a marine, a battlemaster is roughly equivalent to a captain in terms of survivability, but lack the much more sophisticated technology of the 40k universe, no equivalent to storm shields and the like.

So in short a veteran krogan is roughly equivalent to a veteran space marine, before you factor in the superior tech of 40k, so I'd give the marine the edge in terms of long ranged combat up to heavy weapon ability, then the krogan has access to a much better range of heavy weaponry, but only man portable.

A battlemaster is much more resilient than a line astartes, but would still have issues due to the tech level, in close combat the issue would be the same, whilst the krogan have access to a lot of nasty cc equipment (only the hammer made it to the game) it is still much much worse than the range of cc equipment a marine has access to.

I give the win to the marine based on tech alone.

 Psienesis wrote:
If we are using what we see in the "normal" gameplay levels, then the SM wins by a landslide, because even Shep can tank a hammer-hit shieldless on normal

And Ciaphas Cain has, in several instances, outfought khornate berserkers in close combat. Shepard and Cain are both fantastic exceptions, not the norm.

Furthermore, you're still using ME, not ME3, as the basis for all of your comparisons. Technology and tactics in the ME universe have advanced dramatically in the few years between those two games (indeed, technology advanced more between ME and ME3 than in the 10,000 years of the Imperium's existence).

Extreme skill does not help you tank physical wounds once the blow actually lands, though.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Extreme skill does not help you tank physical wounds once the blow actually lands, though.

Shepard survived things that no one should have survived, including being hit by the main cannon of a battleship class Reaper. She is seriously an exception to the norm.

Even in ME3-Normal Shep is tanking hits from Krogan Battlemasters, most-especially depending on how you handle the Tuchanka storyline.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Extreme skill does not help you tank physical wounds once the blow actually lands, though.

Shepard survived things that no one should have survived, including being hit by the main cannon of a battleship class Reaper. She is seriously an exception to the norm.

I assume Harbinger used extremely powered-down shots in that sequence, and did not land a direct hit. (It looked that way to me.)

I mean, if he used his normal kiloton weaponry, I doubt there would be anything more than ash left of Shepard, the ground they stood on, and the city block they were fighting in.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Extreme skill does not help you tank physical wounds once the blow actually lands, though.

Shepard survived things that no one should have survived, including being hit by the main cannon of a battleship class Reaper. She is seriously an exception to the norm.

I assume Harbinger used extremely powered-down shots in that sequence, and did not land a direct hit. (It looked that way to me.)

Looked like Harbinger landed a direct hit, to me. Either way, my comparison to Ciaphas Cain remains. Ciaphas Cain was an ordinary human being who was able to duel with Astartes and win, both loyalist and traitor. However, the fact that he was able to do so doesn't really change the fact that most ordinary humans couldn't accomplish the same feats. No one in the ME universe could accomplish what Shepard could-- except for Shepard.

The protagonist of these kinds of stories accomplishes the impossible (or at least the highly improbable), working against all odds to achieve victory. It's like if you brought up Draigo beating up daemon primarchs and etching tattoos in to their hearts, and tried to say all Space Marines are like him-- stronger than daemon primarchs. But they aren't. He is an exception amongst astartes.

 Melissia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
If we are using what we see in the "normal" gameplay levels, then the SM wins by a landslide, because even Shep can tank a hammer-hit shieldless on normal

And Ciaphas Cain has, in several instances, outfought khornate berserkers in close combat. Shepard and Cain are both fantastic exceptions, not the norm.

Furthermore, you're still using ME, not ME3, as the basis for all of your comparisons. Technology and tactics in the ME universe have advanced dramatically in the few years between those two games (indeed, technology advanced more between ME and ME3 than in the 10,000 years of the Imperium's existence).

Lol technology advanced.

"You know the advantage of our weapons having practically unlimited ammo supplies?"

"Yeah?"

"Well feth that! We can't count on our soldiers on burst firing their weapons so we're going to introduce magazines again!"

"Why can't we just train our troops to use short, controlled bursts?"

"Dont be that guy Jenkins".

The clips were, for the most part, an advance in terms of the raw firepower output per second that a soldier could achieve, and also made coolant systems simpler and safer.

I think we can agree that the Space Marine Vet in our provided example is, at the least, a fair match against Shep (or Cain, who does win fights against Marines, but hardly cake-walks them), who is known to be far and above some random Krogan Battlemaster...

... which brings me back to the Astartes wiping the floor with this Krogan. Shep has no especial defenses against Biotic attacks and manages to handle them fairly well, I don't see an Astartes having much trouble either.

 Psienesis wrote:
I think we can agree that the Space Marine Vet in our provided example is, at the least, a fair match against Shep

If it was a Mass Effect game or book, I don't really see them posing much of a threat, compared to the average gak that she deals with on a daily basis.

She and two squadmates handle entire armies, including mechs, fliers, and monstrous creatures, on a regular basis. And honestly she barely needs the squadmates.

We're comparing apples and oranges here. Commander Shepard is the protagonist to a first person shooter action-rpg, I don't feel comfortable comparing her to anyone other than other protagonists to similar games. Captain Titus from Space Marine would pose a threat to her, but I don't foresee a "standard tactical marine" to be anything more than a heavy mook which takes slightly longer to blow away than the ordinary mook. That's just the nature of first-person shooters.

So Shepard versus Soap from CoD would be a fair fight?

 Ashiraya wrote:
So Shepard versus Soap from CoD would be a fair fight?

Well more fair than you'd expect, given that Soap regenerates his health if he ducks behind cover for a few seconds. Though Shepard has superior grenades than him. Seriously CoD grenades might as well be paintball grenades for all they do except outside of point blank range... meanwhile, Lift Grenades basically kill everything dead.

Actually that reminds me of the end of Citadel-- another example of plot points making an opponent stronger than they would be otherwise. Or Kai Leng, who if it weren't for plot armor, would have died on Thessia like a little bitch.

 Melissia wrote:
The clips were, for the most part, an advance in terms of the raw firepower output per second that a soldier could achieve, and also made coolant systems simpler and safer.

ME2/3 firearms aren't more powerful than what you could get in ME1. The only thing Thermal Clips achieved was regressing firearms technology back to the 21st century except making it needlessly more expensive. All that Eezo and rare earth minerals that go into these adds up.

Commander Shepard is a unique and charismatic individual but he/she couldn't take on a Space Marine Veteran. The Vet has 38,000 years of advanced technology, genetic engineering and centuries of experience in him. A couple of bolter rounds and Shepard would be a fine red mist like any other human.

Commander Shepard vs. Dimitry from CoD: WaW. That guy survived floods, being shot multiple times, destroyed multiple Tiger IIs by himself and wiped out at least one Heer division.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
ME2/3 firearms aren't more powerful than what you could get in ME1

Oh they definitely are. And the variety of weapons is massively increased, too. In ME1, weapons were little more than a reskin and an upgrade of each other within the same category.

ME2 starts off where ME1 left off in terms of weapon power, and advances it further with upgrades, and ME3 advances weapon power even beyond that even without upgrades, plus has a far greater variety of modifications to allow each soldier to customize their gear to suit their needs.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Vet has 38,000 years of advanced technology, genetic engineering and centuries of experience in him.

Not really. There's nothing particularly exciting or advanced about what Astartes wears, and as demonstrated with the example of plasma and cutting torches, his armor isn't even necessarily that much better... and, furthermore, Shepard has taken down far deadlier enemies than a mere Space Marine. Several such enemies at a time, in fact, while said deadly enemies were being supported by common mooks.

Like who?

And a squad of Space Marines topple entire planets with fewer and less-specialized troops.

 Psienesis wrote:
And a squad of Space Marines topple entire planets with fewer and less-specialized troops.

No, see, if a planet has cutting torches that means their weapons can punch through Astartes armor. The USSR had cutting torches so therefore a Mosin-Nagant can easily penetrate power armor. Thus, even Dimitry could kill the Space Marine veteran.

10/10

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Like who?

Anything the Armax Arsenal Arena would classify as Super-Elites.

Brutes and Banshees could each kill Space Marines in a single blow, and both of them are equally capable of getting close enough to land said blow (while the foolish Space Marine decides he wants to swing his dinky little chainsword at them), via its ridicuously tough frontal armor for the Brute, and teleportation for the Banshee. The brute is capable of tearing apart tanks in order to get at the crew inside, which includes itself being able to tank the tank's firepower in order to reach it. The Banshee could also weaken the power armor substantially with her biotic powers, and is capable of punching through extremely heavy armor with her claw, then burning out the nervous system of her victim.

Praetorians can likewise kill Astartes in a single hit, and furthermore have immensely powerful ranged attacks-- and when possessed, they gain additional ranged attacks plus are faster, tougher, and deal even more damage with all their other attacks. They're perhaps the most dangerous enemy in Mass Effect, and would be equivalent to a Flyrant if Flyrants had superior firepower than they currently do.

Atlases perhaps pose the least threat of the super-elites in close combat, but they still carry railguns and missile launchers, both of which would be able to damage an Astartes, and have the equivalent of a dreadnought close combat weapon for a melee attack. They are almost always supported by / supporting Phantoms and Nemeses, the latter of which uses an anti-materiel rifle, and the former is similar to a howling banshee exarch... if said exarch is had a plasma pistol with her power sword, plus psychic powers that gave her almost impenetrable directional shields, plus the ability to turn invisible.

Geth Primes / Geth Juggernauts are capable of holding their opponent immobile off the ground at a short distance (well outside the distance of melee) while draining the power from their shields, armor, and nervous system in order to regenerate their shields, in addition to their considerable firepower which includes a lot of plasma weaponry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
And a squad of Space Marines topple entire planets with fewer and less-specialized troops.

A small number of Sisters-- unaugmented humans-- did the same thing. Plot armor covers a multitude of sins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
stupid trolling crap

No.

A small number of Sisters-- unaugmented humans-- did the same thing. Plot armor covers a multitude of sins.

Could not the same thing be said for Shepard? S/He is as good as they are because they are the protagonist character of the game, and it would be a pretty dull game if, say, the heat-wash of those Reaper lasers incinerated them inside their armor at a distance of fifty meters.

 Psienesis wrote:

A small number of Sisters-- unaugmented humans-- did the same thing. Plot armor covers a multitude of sins.

Could not the same thing be said for Shepard?

Oh good, several pages later you're finally starting to understand my point. Praise the Emperor!

Why would a Space Marine have a problem with any of those things when a Guardsman would a Lasgun could deal with them? Or... any person with a 20th century or later firearm could deal with it. Again, ME guns aren't more powerful than something you could get today.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why would a Space Marine have a problem with any of those things

If a Brute can rip apart tanks with relative ease, they can rip apart a Space Marine.

You can marinewank all you want, doesn't really make your arguments valid.

Also, a guardsman would become bloody bonemeal.

...Melissia, you can't really accuse others of 'marinewanking' when you have spent the entire thread doing the exact same thing for the Krogan.

 Melissia wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
Why would a Space Marine have a problem with any of those things

If a Brute can rip apart tanks with relative ease, they can rip apart a Space Marine.

You can marinewank all you want, doesn't really make your arguments valid.

Also, a guardsman would become bloody bonemeal.

I'm not Marinewanking. I'm not even a Marine fanboy. I love ME more as a franchise than 40k and Imperial Guard more than Space Marines. I just think that given that ME weaponry isn't powerful enough to reliably penetrate Power Armor. Unless a Avenger or a Mattock can blow off limbs or blow large holes in concrete they are not even as powerful as a Lasgun. 40K is franchise that takes sci-fi and ramps it up tp 11. Mass Effect approaches sci-fi with a more reasonable approach but by doing so it puts it's power level below 40k which isn't even a bad thing.

 Ashiraya wrote:
...Melissia, you can't really accuse others of 'marinewanking' when you have spent the entire thread doing the exact same thing for the Krogan.

I can and I did. And I stand by it. Furthermore, I have not been doing the same thing for Krogans. I have been describing Krogans as they are in the ME3 multiplayer setting, without being dismissive of the capabilities of Space Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I'm not Marinewanking. I'm not even a Marine fanboy. I love ME more as a franchise than 40k and Imperial Guard more than Space Marines. I just think that given that ME weaponry isn't powerful enough to reliably penetrate Power Armor.

I have already stated countless times that I disagree, and believe you are vastly underselling the capabilities of the weapons and armor in question-- and I provided examples. Your responses recently have been little more than pointless trolling, because apparently you have nothing else to give.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And, for both Halo and Mass Effect, the highest difficulty is generally considered "canon" since that is what presents the most challenge.

What? No. That's stupid. I don't even know where you're pulling that out of. Platinum difficulty is most certainly NOT canon.

Seconded.

It makes no sense. The enemies in higher level difficulties down you in a couple of shots, but you must empty entire clips into them.
What does this show? That Mass effect humans are ridiculously weak, or super humanly strong?

Shepard's journey in the Mass Effect series is not meant to be easy. The galaxy is not intended to be fair, the enemies are not intended to be push-overs. That's what makes it an epic, heroic event of legendary proportions.

If you can wade through a score or more of enemies and slaughter them with naught but brief pauses to catch one's breath and allow one's shields to repop, then just about any idiot could accomplish what Shepard accomplishes.

The same is true of Halo, of course. If the Covenant were as stupid and easy as they are on the "medium" levels of gameplay, then Master Chief isn't really needed to do the things he does... or, alternately, the Covenant aren't really that big of a threat, and the game is more a reflection on the results of rampant military spending without regard to national infrastructure.

Wait, what? I've played through the entire series (second-to-last difficulty), and I can easily wade through a dozen enemies (or more). If what you're saying is true, then the devs really suck at accomplishing their intentions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
And a squad of Space Marines topple entire planets with fewer and less-specialized troops.

No, see, if a planet has cutting torches that means their weapons can punch through Astartes armor. The USSR had cutting torches so therefore a Mosin-Nagant can easily penetrate power armor. Thus, even Dimitry could kill the Space Marine veteran.

Way to troll, m8. You gotta love that fallacious reasoning.

 Melissia wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
...Melissia, you can't really accuse others of 'marinewanking' when you have spent the entire thread doing the exact same thing for the Krogan.

I can and I did. And I stand by it. Furthermore, I have not been doing the same thing for Krogans. I have been describing Krogans as they are in the ME3 multiplayer setting, without being dismissive of the capabilities of Space Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I'm not Marinewanking. I'm not even a Marine fanboy. I love ME more as a franchise than 40k and Imperial Guard more than Space Marines. I just think that given that ME weaponry isn't powerful enough to reliably penetrate Power Armor.

I have already stated countless times that I disagree, and believe you are vastly underselling the capabilities of the weapons and armor in question-- and I provided examples. Your responses recently have been little more than pointless trolling, because apparently you have nothing else to give.

I'm not trolling you. I just don't agree with your logic. Just because Geth plasma weaponry have been described as having impacts similiar to that of a cutting torch doesn't mean they are the same as when Burna Boyz adjust their flamers to fulfill that function. Burna Boyz use a fuel that isn't even known in the ME universe so we can't conclusively say that a ME cutting torch is the same as a Burna Boyz flamer.

ME guns aren't that impressive when you compare them to what you'd find in 40k. A Mattock does not blow people to shreds or does a Tempest slice people to ribbons. They do what you'd expect a futuristic sci-fi rifle to do which is to behave in a similar fashion to a modern day rifle but a little bit flashier. Boltguns are rapid firing .75 mass reactive rocket launchers that turn people in gory chunks.I've cited examples of the relative power of ME wapons and protection of armor. I disagree with your assertion that the only reason they performed that way was because Shepard was firing them. Nothing about Commander Shepard suggests he/she has exceptional aiming skills that would allow him/her to bypass armor like he does in cutscenes. In my opinion this means that armor in ME doesn't offer reliable protection against small arms that are generally inferior to a Boltgun whereas Astartes power armor does.