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 Voidwraith wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
because of there speed there hard to hit, this why the 3+ save, just like ork bikes get the plus one to cover from the dirt cloud.

Dark Eldar Reavers have a 5+ save. Harlequin Skyweavers (or whatever they're called) have a 4+. The fact that they're different from one another is stupid, but not as stupid as Eldar Windriders having a 3+. The fact that they're troops (instead of fast attack as is the case in the DE and Harlequin examples) is just salt in the wound.

Feel free to continue trolling this thread with your horrible punctuation and L2P attitude, but you're attempts at applying reason to justify the way things shook out with the new Eldar codex are insulting to smart people everywhere. Try harder.

I also need to point out that Ork Warbikes have a 4+ save not a 3+ and has been said Ork Bikes only get +1 cover when turboboosting and that means they didnt do anything useful. They used to just have a 4+ cover save from their exhaust clod and all the dust, but that was the old dex.

Dman137 wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Well first off I'd like to say I don't know much about Eldar, simply due to my complete lack of interest in them but I have heard of the stories of their overpoweredness and have see the devastation it has wrought so I have some thoughts on that.
As a second opener I do have concerns that I don't want the nerfs to screw over the players too badly. Just because I don't care about or like an army doesn't mean I want their players to suffer.

With that said, the things I think might need to be changed:
1) The Jetbikes should probably be 1-in-3 for the fancy weapons, with the Scatterlaser costing more and a worse armor save (4+ or 5+). Maybe keep the current version around as a separate unit (something like "Veteran Windriders" or something) with the specialty spam and 3+, but in a different slot and noticeably more expensive, and the Scatterlaser getting the same cost increase. I mostly say the latter to not screw over anyone who bought loads of them, and some say it might be fine if they were correctly costed and not Troops.
2) The Wraithknight needs to be more expensive, everybody already knows that. I'll also add that it needs to be a Walker rather than a Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature because THAT'S WHAT IT BLOODY IS! It's not a monster, it's a piloted mecha! And before you ask, yes I would say the exact same thing about the Riptide and Dreadknight.
3) I might be biased due to not getting repeatedly snarfed with D but I'm actually fine with Destroyer weapons, what isn't fine is having a stupid amount of them. Let the Wraithknight keep them by all means, it's a great big Lord of War and if anything should have Destroyer weapons it's a great big Lord of War. What isn't fine on any level is having Wraithguard spamming them like crazy. That's taking it too far, and it seems like there's a better alternative in how they used to work.

Lastly, Dman, are you seriously gonna push the "GW isn't going to change it so just roll with it, lol" angle? Because that failure of logic could be used against EVERYTHING on this site, they likely aren't logging onto DakkaDakka to look for suggestions. What's more, house rules and such are a thing that exist.

House rules might be a thing but it's not really a good thing, it might be alright for your gaming group but what happens when you play someone not from your gaming group.? Or when your at a tournement.? House ruling things while it might make sense to you and your friends it really Doesn't teach you how to get better or learn new stratigys.
And yes if GW isn't going to change it then roll with it, people are to sensitive, it's a game, play it the way it's presented.
So you think that jetbikes should have a 4+\5+ save.? So the best bikes in the game get the worst save lol SM bikes have a 3+, ork bikes have a 3+ so why shouldn't eldar.?

Space Marine bikers get 3+ because they wear Power Armor. Scout bikers get a 4+ because they wear Scout armor. Ork Bikers have a 4+ because they consider them to be Eavy Armor Boyz or Nobz.

Eldar get a 3+ because the clown who wrote the Eldar codex was TFG who never wanted to lose.

and the eldar bikes should confer a 3+ save. Why would they get a 5+.? So bolters can kill them with no save, yeah no thanks clearly you missed the point of balance. But like I said before, GW won't fix and I'm just going to sit back and enjoy getting my 88+ S6 range 36" shots per turn

I must admit I've always wondered since 3rd why eldar bikes have a 3+ save.

because of there speed there hard to hit, this why the 3+ save, just like ork bikes get the plus one to cover from the dirt cloud.

For the record, mate, ARMOUR SAVE isn't affected by your speed.
JINK SAVE is speed, as represented by how the model JINKS to avoid damage and whatnot.

Therefore, you can still have low armour, and still be fast (Dark Eldar, with 5+ armour and Jink), high armour and be slow (Space Marine Infantry with 3+ and no Jink), or high armour and still be fast (Eldar, with 3+ AND Jink) which could explain some of the hate against Eldar jetbikes.

Just putting that out there, but ARMOUR SAVE is not, and never will be, affected by speed of the model. Just it's ARMOUR, hence why it is called the ARMOUR SAVE.

Due to the recent flurry of responses, the ratio of regular posts to my troll posts has been diluted. Fixing that!

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Well first off I'd like to say I don't know much about Eldar, simply due to my complete lack of interest in them but I have heard of the stories of their overpoweredness and have see the devastation it has wrought so I have some thoughts on that.
As a second opener I do have concerns that I don't want the nerfs to screw over the players too badly. Just because I don't care about or like an army doesn't mean I want their players to suffer.

With that said, the things I think might need to be changed:
1) The Jetbikes should probably be 1-in-3 for the fancy weapons, with the Scatterlaser costing more and a worse armor save (4+ or 5+). Maybe keep the current version around as a separate unit (something like "Veteran Windriders" or something) with the specialty spam and 3+, but in a different slot and noticeably more expensive, and the Scatterlaser getting the same cost increase. I mostly say the latter to not screw over anyone who bought loads of them, and some say it might be fine if they were correctly costed and not Troops.
2) The Wraithknight needs to be more expensive, everybody already knows that. I'll also add that it needs to be a Walker rather than a Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature because THAT'S WHAT IT BLOODY IS! It's not a monster, it's a piloted mecha! And before you ask, yes I would say the exact same thing about the Riptide and Dreadknight.
3) I might be biased due to not getting repeatedly snarfed with D but I'm actually fine with Destroyer weapons, what isn't fine is having a stupid amount of them. Let the Wraithknight keep them by all means, it's a great big Lord of War and if anything should have Destroyer weapons it's a great big Lord of War. What isn't fine on any level is having Wraithguard spamming them like crazy. That's taking it too far, and it seems like there's a better alternative in how they used to work.

Lastly, Dman, are you seriously gonna push the "GW isn't going to change it so just roll with it, lol" angle? Because that failure of logic could be used against EVERYTHING on this site, they likely aren't logging onto DakkaDakka to look for suggestions. What's more, house rules and such are a thing that exist.

Much as it pains me, I do concede that for the sake of consistency Windriders should have a 4+ armour save.

Your "Veteran Windriders" suggestion valid, but a tad misguided. Give Windriders a better save, increase their leadership and points cost, and move them into Fast Attack and you get...Shining Spears! The worst unit in the Eldar codex! And before you ask, Shining Spears would be bad in any other codex too. But the "Veteran Windriders" idea would go a long way toward fixing them. The question them becomes what to do with their laser lances...

Dman137 wrote:House rules might be a thing but it's not really a good thing, it might be alright for your gaming group but what happens when you play someone not from your gaming group.? Or when your at a tournement.? House ruling things while it might make sense to you and your friends it really Doesn't teach you how to get better or learn new stratigys.
And yes if GW isn't going to change it then roll with it, people are to sensitive, it's a game, play it the way it's presented.
So you think that jetbikes should have a 4+\5+ save.? So the best bikes in the game get the worst save lol SM bikes have a 3+, ork bikes have a 3+ so why shouldn't eldar.?

Space Marines have power armour. Ork bikers have heavy metal/durasteel plates strapped to their chests. Guardians wear the protective equivalent of cardboard. To keep things consistent with other Eldar jetbikes (Reavers, Harlequin bikes) Windriders should be T4 4+ armour.

Are you seriously suggesting that house rules are a bad thing? Are we reading from the same rulebook and playing the same game here? Warhammer 40,000 is a poorly-written and terribly balanced mess of a game. I can be great fun and engaging, but only if all the participants involved agree on some solutions to the inherent problems of 40k. When you go someplace or play people that are unfamiliar, you can use the mystical human skill of "communication" to find out what their house rules are and How They Would Play It. All the major Tournaments already have their own special house rules, if you didn't already know. ITC, BAO, and NOVA are the three rulesets that seem to have caught on with other groups (not entirely sure about the LVO, as I haven't personally heard much about people using it). In a game as open-ended as 40k, "scrub mentality" doesn't exist. There is a learning curve to the game, but the same principle does not apply to a game like 40k in its current state.

Ghazkuul wrote:Space Marine bikers get 3+ because they wear Power Armor. Scout bikers get a 4+ because they wear Scout armor. Ork Bikers have a 4+ because they consider them to be Eavy Armor Boyz or Nobz.

Eldar get a 3+ because the clown who wrote the Eldar codex was The Dark Lord Phil Kelly.

Fixed that for you.

Martel732 wrote:It's actually a typo from Rogue Trader that we think was never fixed.

The plot thickens!

Also, Eldar had jetbikes in Rogue Trader? I shudder to think about how those looked...

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" enjoy getting my 88+ S6 range 36" shots per turn "

TFG Eldar ftw.

the reason so many players say ban Eldar

To bad they won't ban eldar hahaha

Maybe not from tournaments because they have to worry about getting enough players to attend. but a lot of local gaming clubs with people like you have basically told them to go feth themselves. In my area we have a great Eldar player who refuses to act like you. He plays competitive lists but doesn't take WK's and Scat bikes and the other BS Eldar shenanigans. In fact he is probably the best 40k Player I know, truly a fun guy to play with. But we also had a guy like you who would bring WK's and scat bikes and try to play a FW Eldar Titan. He isn't allowed at the store anymore.

competitive eldar player that doesn't have a WK or scattbikes is not a competitive player, second off you don't no what kind of player I am. In are local store we let anyone use what they want, it's a game get use to it, you think soccer teams are going to ban Ranaldo or messi because there to good.? Lmao it's a game with toy soldiers, people are to sensitive and clearly your really sensitive to eldar sorry I mentioned your trigger word lol

Seriously Dman137, you're giving yourself and Eldar players in general a bad name. We already have a bad reputation, and you're just making it worse.

I consider myself at least a somewhat competitive player, and I don't use Scatbikers or a Wraithknight. I find it more fun and more in keeping with the Eldar lore (which is part of what attracted me to the army) to use Aspect Warriors and other underused units to win. Gives more of a challenge, gets you more opponents, and is more satisfying when you win.

The "It's just a game/I'm just using what the codex lets me/L2P scrub" argument doesn't work in a game of fundamental unbalance and bad rules writing. The attitude doesn't help either. You're beginning to be falling into the dreaded but legitimate definition of TFG. And as a side note, "Trigger word" jokes aren't funny.

 Voidwraith wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
because of there speed there hard to hit, this why the 3+ save, just like ork bikes get the plus one to cover from the dirt cloud.

Dark Eldar Reavers have a 5+ save. Harlequin Skyweavers (or whatever they're called) have a 4+. The fact that they're different from one another is stupid, but not as stupid as Eldar Windriders having a 3+. The fact that they're troops (instead of fast attack as is the case in the DE and Harlequin examples) is just salt in the wound.

Feel free to continue trolling this thread with your horrible punctuation and L2P attitude, but you're attempts at applying reason to justify the way things shook out with the new Eldar codex are insulting to smart people everywhere. Try harder.

You and a lot of you are just being salty

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Considering that Imperial Knights are only around 350-450 points, 600 is a bit much.

Considering that Superheavies do not make it so that the majority of their counters(melta and haywire) are degraded almost to the point of uselessness, while Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures do(Poisoned weapons and Sniper)?
600 is right on the money--for a Wraithknight that comes standard with sword/shimmershield. Weapons should be pointed upgrades.

And while yeah, you can say "But grav's a thing!"--it's not a thing for every single army out there, nor is Grav going to outrange the weapons of those GMCs--meaning that if they don't kill it, you've fumbled it with a Suicide Squad.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Due to the recent flurry of responses, the ratio of regular posts to my troll posts has been diluted. Fixing that!

 CrashGordon94 wrote:
Well first off I'd like to say I don't know much about Eldar, simply due to my complete lack of interest in them but I have heard of the stories of their overpoweredness and have see the devastation it has wrought so I have some thoughts on that.
As a second opener I do have concerns that I don't want the nerfs to screw over the players too badly. Just because I don't care about or like an army doesn't mean I want their players to suffer.

With that said, the things I think might need to be changed:
1) The Jetbikes should probably be 1-in-3 for the fancy weapons, with the Scatterlaser costing more and a worse armor save (4+ or 5+). Maybe keep the current version around as a separate unit (something like "Veteran Windriders" or something) with the specialty spam and 3+, but in a different slot and noticeably more expensive, and the Scatterlaser getting the same cost increase. I mostly say the latter to not screw over anyone who bought loads of them, and some say it might be fine if they were correctly costed and not Troops.
2) The Wraithknight needs to be more expensive, everybody already knows that. I'll also add that it needs to be a Walker rather than a Monstrous Creature or Gargantuan Creature because THAT'S WHAT IT BLOODY IS! It's not a monster, it's a piloted mecha! And before you ask, yes I would say the exact same thing about the Riptide and Dreadknight.
3) I might be biased due to not getting repeatedly snarfed with D but I'm actually fine with Destroyer weapons, what isn't fine is having a stupid amount of them. Let the Wraithknight keep them by all means, it's a great big Lord of War and if anything should have Destroyer weapons it's a great big Lord of War. What isn't fine on any level is having Wraithguard spamming them like crazy. That's taking it too far, and it seems like there's a better alternative in how they used to work.

Lastly, Dman, are you seriously gonna push the "GW isn't going to change it so just roll with it, lol" angle? Because that failure of logic could be used against EVERYTHING on this site, they likely aren't logging onto DakkaDakka to look for suggestions. What's more, house rules and such are a thing that exist.

Much as it pains me, I do concede that for the sake of consistency Windriders should have a 4+ armour save.

Your "Veteran Windriders" suggestion valid, but a tad misguided. Give Windriders a better save, increase their leadership and points cost, and move them into Fast Attack and you get...Shining Spears! The worst unit in the Eldar codex! And before you ask, Shining Spears would be bad in any other codex too. But the "Veteran Windriders" idea would go a long way toward fixing them. The question them becomes what to do with their laser lances...

Dman137 wrote:House rules might be a thing but it's not really a good thing, it might be alright for your gaming group but what happens when you play someone not from your gaming group.? Or when your at a tournement.? House ruling things while it might make sense to you and your friends it really Doesn't teach you how to get better or learn new stratigys.
And yes if GW isn't going to change it then roll with it, people are to sensitive, it's a game, play it the way it's presented.
So you think that jetbikes should have a 4+\5+ save.? So the best bikes in the game get the worst save lol SM bikes have a 3+, ork bikes have a 3+ so why shouldn't eldar.?

Space Marines have power armour. Ork bikers have heavy metal/durasteel plates strapped to their chests. Guardians wear the protective equivalent of cardboard. To keep things consistent with other Eldar jetbikes (Reavers, Harlequin bikes) Windriders should be T4 4+ armour.

Are you seriously suggesting that house rules are a bad thing? Are we reading from the same rulebook and playing the same game here? Warhammer 40,000 is a poorly-written and terribly balanced mess of a game. I can be great fun and engaging, but only if all the participants involved agree on some solutions to the inherent problems of 40k. When you go someplace or play people that are unfamiliar, you can use the mystical human skill of "communication" to find out what their house rules are and How They Would Play It. All the major Tournaments already have their own special house rules, if you didn't already know. ITC, BAO, and NOVA are the three rulesets that seem to have caught on with other groups (not entirely sure about the LVO, as I haven't personally heard much about people using it). In a game as open-ended as 40k, "scrub mentality" doesn't exist. There is a learning curve to the game, but the same principle does not apply to a game like 40k in its current state.

Ghazkuul wrote:Space Marine bikers get 3+ because they wear Power Armor. Scout bikers get a 4+ because they wear Scout armor. Ork Bikers have a 4+ because they consider them to be Eavy Armor Boyz or Nobz.

Eldar get a 3+ because the clown who wrote the Eldar codex was The Dark Lord Phil Kelly.

Fixed that for you.

Martel732 wrote:It's actually a typo from Rogue Trader that we think was never fixed.

The plot thickens!

Also, Eldar had jetbikes in Rogue Trader? I shudder to think about how those looked...

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Ghazkuul wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" enjoy getting my 88+ S6 range 36" shots per turn "

TFG Eldar ftw.

the reason so many players say ban Eldar

To bad they won't ban eldar hahaha

Maybe not from tournaments because they have to worry about getting enough players to attend. but a lot of local gaming clubs with people like you have basically told them to go feth themselves. In my area we have a great Eldar player who refuses to act like you. He plays competitive lists but doesn't take WK's and Scat bikes and the other BS Eldar shenanigans. In fact he is probably the best 40k Player I know, truly a fun guy to play with. But we also had a guy like you who would bring WK's and scat bikes and try to play a FW Eldar Titan. He isn't allowed at the store anymore.

competitive eldar player that doesn't have a WK or scattbikes is not a competitive player, second off you don't no what kind of player I am. In are local store we let anyone use what they want, it's a game get use to it, you think soccer teams are going to ban Ranaldo or messi because there to good.? Lmao it's a game with toy soldiers, people are to sensitive and clearly your really sensitive to eldar sorry I mentioned your trigger word lol

Seriously Dman137, you're giving yourself and Eldar players in general a bad name. We already have a bad reputation, and you're just making it worse.

I consider myself at least a somewhat competitive player, and I don't use Scatbikers or a Wraithknight. I find it more fun and more in keeping with the Eldar lore (which is part of what attracted me to the army) to use Aspect Warriors and other underused units to win. Gives more of a challenge, gets you more opponents, and is more satisfying when you win.

The "It's just a game/I'm just using what the codex lets me/L2P scrub" argument doesn't work in a game of fundamental unbalance and bad rules writing. The attitude doesn't help either. You're beginning to be falling into the dreaded but legitimate definition of TFG. And as a side note, "Trigger word" jokes aren't funny.

Ok so if I want to play a saim-hann which is a fluffy army that has a lot of bikes in it how would I go about it, I need troops and if I'm not taking the bikes then it's not really saim-hann.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Considering that Imperial Knights are only around 350-450 points, 600 is a bit much.

Considering that Superheavies do not make it so that the majority of their counters(melta and haywire) are degraded almost to the point of uselessness, while Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures do(Poisoned weapons and Sniper)?
600 is right on the money--for a Wraithknight that comes standard with sword/shimmershield. Weapons should be pointed upgrades.

And while yeah, you can say "But grav's a thing!"--it's not a thing for every single army out there, nor is Grav going to outrange the weapons of those GMCs--meaning that if they don't kill it, you've fumbled it with a Suicide Squad.

The % of SM players is very high and all competitive builds have grav in a pod, so the wraithknight is dead.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Considering that Imperial Knights are only around 350-450 points, 600 is a bit much.

Considering that Superheavies do not make it so that the majority of their counters(melta and haywire) are degraded almost to the point of uselessness, while Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures do(Poisoned weapons and Sniper)?
600 is right on the money--for a Wraithknight that comes standard with sword/shimmershield. Weapons should be pointed upgrades.

And while yeah, you can say "But grav's a thing!"--it's not a thing for every single army out there, nor is Grav going to outrange the weapons of those GMCs--meaning that if they don't kill it, you've fumbled it with a Suicide Squad.

I haven't said that the Wraithknight isn't a problem. It's status as a Gargantuan Creature is the biggest problem right now. It could go back to a Monstrous Creature, but that wouldn't deal with the contradiction of it being an MC despite being a piloted vehicle. I can see it as an equivalent to the Imperial Knight, with AV13/12/12 6HP and costing about 390-450 points (including upgrades). The other biggest offenders in the undercosted MC category (Dreadknight, Riptide) could use a similar treatment of being turned into walkers. It might also give people a reason to field the Wraithlord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dman137 wrote:
Ok so if I want to play a saim-hann which is a fluffy army that has a lot of bikes in it how would I go about it, I need troops and if I'm not taking the bikes then it's not really saim-hann.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Considering that Imperial Knights are only around 350-450 points, 600 is a bit much.

Considering that Superheavies do not make it so that the majority of their counters(melta and haywire) are degraded almost to the point of uselessness, while Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures do(Poisoned weapons and Sniper)?
600 is right on the money--for a Wraithknight that comes standard with sword/shimmershield. Weapons should be pointed upgrades.

And while yeah, you can say "But grav's a thing!"--it's not a thing for every single army out there, nor is Grav going to outrange the weapons of those GMCs--meaning that if they don't kill it, you've fumbled it with a Suicide Squad.

The % of SM players is very high and all competitive builds have grav in a pod, so the wraithknight is dead.

With regards to Saim-Hann, that's easy. Only take 1 per 3 with the heavy weapons.

Not everybody plays space marines, and not everybody has easy access to grav weapons. And if you factor in cover (which the Wraithknight can toe-in for stupid reasons) and the 5++ and Feel No Pain, you need a lot of grav to kill the Wraithknight. If you don't, you lose.

Dman137 wrote:
House rules might be a thing but it's not really a good thing, it might be alright for your gaming group but what happens when you play someone not from your gaming group.? Or when your at a tournement.? House ruling things while it might make sense to you and your friends it really Doesn't teach you how to get better or learn new stratigys.

Yes it IS a good thing, it's the only way to handle broken or bad rules! You end up with an actually working game that way.

Dman137 wrote:
And yes if GW isn't going to change it then roll with it, people are to sensitive, it's a game, play it the way it's presented.

No, I just told you why that's not valid, did you even READ my bloody post?
If you seriously use this topic, pretty much this whole forum (or at the very least topics like this and everything in the Proposed Rules subforum) is pointless. And really, if you're going with that, why even make this thread?

Dman137 wrote:
So you think that jetbikes should have a 4+\5+ save.? So the best bikes in the game get the worst save lol SM bikes have a 3+, ork bikes have a 3+ so why shouldn't eldar.?

That's the thing, as others have pointed out Space Marine Bikers and Ork Bikers keep their ordinary Armor save. The +1 Toughness is already stupid enough (p.s. I say this as someone who -partially- plays Ravenwing!), we don't need something as stupid as that piled on top.

Dman137 wrote:
and the eldar bikes should confer a 3+ save. Why would they get a 5+.? So bolters can kill them with no save, yeah no thanks clearly you missed the point of balance. But like I said before, GW won't fix and I'm just going to sit back and enjoy getting my 88+ S6 range 36" shots per turn

This, this is why everyone hates you. You flaunt your unfair army and mock any attempt or suggestion to reign it in.
I could only imagine you'd change your tune on "That's what GW said, so that's what I'm doing!" if the 8th edition Eldar 'dex was underpowered crap.
Because it's pretty blatantly clear that you care only about having a stupidly OP army and rubbing it in peoples' faces, the very definition of a WAAC TFG.

And you know what? There's no need for it. I say this as someone who plays one of the "big four"! You know what I would do if one of my friends who plays a weaker army (one plays IG, the other 'Nids) couldn't handle one of my cheesy or borderline-cheesy things? I'd tone it down for them. Because I'm not a flipping sociopath who gets off on making other players suffer!

 TheNewBlood wrote:
Your "Veteran Windriders" suggestion valid, but a tad misguided. Give Windriders a better save, increase their leadership and points cost, and move them into Fast Attack and you get...Shining Spears! The worst unit in the Eldar codex! And before you ask, Shining Spears would be bad in any other codex too. But the "Veteran Windriders" idea would go a long way toward fixing them. The question them becomes what to do with their laser lances...

Fair enough, as I mentioned I know very little about Eldar outside of the terrified and angry ramblings about Scatterbikes/Wraithknights/The D, my idea was mostly born out of finding a way to make it so that people wouldn't necessarily have to hack up their Windriders just to keep them legal. I don't really know what else I could honestly contribute to refining the idea into a better form, being so unfamiliar with Spess Elves.

On a sidenote, I'm a little baffled that you call yourself a troll, because honestly you've been nothing but reasonable this entire topic. That perspective might be unpopular but you actually back it up perfectly fine, unlike Dman (who's actually coming across as a troll AT BEST).

 Kanluwen wrote:

Considering that Superheavies do not make it so that the majority of their counters(melta and haywire) are degraded almost to the point of uselessness, while Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures do(Poisoned weapons and Sniper)?
600 is right on the money--for a Wraithknight that comes standard with sword/shimmershield. Weapons should be pointed upgrades.

And while yeah, you can say "But grav's a thing!"--it's not a thing for every single army out there, nor is Grav going to outrange the weapons of those GMCs--meaning that if they don't kill it, you've fumbled it with a Suicide Squad.

Probably best
Best solution would be to ramp up the cost AND make them a (Superheavy?) Walker.

Dman137 wrote:

Ok so if I want to play a saim-hann which is a fluffy army that has a lot of bikes in it how would I go about it, I need troops and if I'm not taking the bikes then it's not really saim-hann.

Easy, you take reasonable 4+ save, 1 Heavy per 3 guys Windriders. Problem solved!

Dman137 wrote:

The % of SM players is very high and all competitive builds have grav in a pod, so the wraithknight is dead.

But it's not 100%, so you can stick that argument where the sun don't shine.

Dman137 wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
because of there speed there hard to hit, this why the 3+ save, just like ork bikes get the plus one to cover from the dirt cloud.

Dark Eldar Reavers have a 5+ save. Harlequin Skyweavers (or whatever they're called) have a 4+. The fact that they're different from one another is stupid, but not as stupid as Eldar Windriders having a 3+. The fact that they're troops (instead of fast attack as is the case in the DE and Harlequin examples) is just salt in the wound.

Feel free to continue trolling this thread with your horrible punctuation and L2P attitude, but you're attempts at applying reason to justify the way things shook out with the new Eldar codex are insulting to smart people everywhere. Try harder.

You and a lot of you are just being salty

No, I'm just pointing out that your opinions aren't being backed up by sound logic, which is totally acceptable if you're just trolling like an 8 year old. If, however, you're trying to be taken seriously, up your forum-fu....you're coming off like an idiot.

Dman137 wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
because of there speed there hard to hit, this why the 3+ save, just like ork bikes get the plus one to cover from the dirt cloud.

Dark Eldar Reavers have a 5+ save. Harlequin Skyweavers (or whatever they're called) have a 4+. The fact that they're different from one another is stupid, but not as stupid as Eldar Windriders having a 3+. The fact that they're troops (instead of fast attack as is the case in the DE and Harlequin examples) is just salt in the wound.

Feel free to continue trolling this thread with your horrible punctuation and L2P attitude, but you're attempts at applying reason to justify the way things shook out with the new Eldar codex are insulting to smart people everywhere. Try harder.

You and a lot of you are just being salty

So, allow me to rephrase my previous comment:
You feel that a 25 point model with Ballistic Skill 4, Toughness 4 and a 3+ save and a 2+ Jink that can move 12", fire any weapons it has, and then move again in the Assault phase to get back in to cover/out of LOS and caries a weapon with a range of 36" and can put out an inordinate number of shots per turn is fair, fluffy and fun? And the fact that you can have 10 of these in a single troops choice is even more so?

And we are all whiners because we dont like the idea of trying to get close to these immensely powerful units which can tear us a new one from across the board where we can not retaliate?

Yes troll, keep on going.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, why the hell are we even bothering?

Dman117, you started this thread by asking for advice on how to make the Eldar more balanced, something that was a reasonable and well thought out request.

You have since spent every damn post within this thread having a massive hissy fit whenever anyone suggests doing something about the two cripplingly massive mammoths in this room - namely the Wraith Brigade and the Scatbike Spam. People have suggested reasonable alternatives, like allowing the Jetbikes to only take one heavy weapon per five or even (and I think this is far too generous for a troops choice as good as these) one in three. That way you can still take your Jetbike list but you an no longer forcibly destroy your opponent (the Mod banned me from using the 'R' word ) from across the board. Instead you would have to close with them, playing peek-a-boom from behind LoS blocking cover would no longer work, or at least not as well.

But no. You scream and wail about how terrible this would make them - yes how terrible a 25 point BS4 T4 3+ move in the assault phase as well and bunny hop terrain troops choice - and how they would become useless. Other suggestions such as making them a FA choice - sensible seeing as ever equivalent unit in every other codex is a FA choice - and only allowing them to be troops in Saim Hann specific formations have also been screamed down as 'unfluffy' and 'that would make them useless'
Why would it? They would be in the correct slot, their firepower would be toned down to sane levels and you would still be able to Saim Hann.... But certain broken combos would vanish.

What about the Wraith Knight and co? People have suggested making it more expensive, bringing it on par with other units of its type. Right now the Wraith Knight costs less than an Imperial Knight but can easily take on two and destroy them most of the time. It is big, it is nasty and it needs a nerf. So what Grav hurts it - Grav hurts most things. What about Poison? Sniper? It gets to safely ignore those. And oddly enough (and I know that your mind may struggle to comprehend this) not everyone uses Grav. That only two (yes two ) armies within the game has access to Grav should ever so slightly hint that this dreaded and much hated weapon is not the omnipresent monster that you keep insisting it is.
But no, we have more whining and wailing and other players being called 'scrubs' and 'n00bs' and being told to 'L2P'. You insistently ignore the core fact that the Wraith Knight is so massively broken that no other comparative units can stand against it. And this is before we go in to the stupid rules that let it stand with but a toe, yes a fething TOE, in cover and gain a full save from it.

And then we have Wrathguard. Or bloody hell, this just gets better and better. For the price of the humble Melta Gun you can get a Strength D weapon with an extra 6" of range on a unit that is already very durable. Wonderful, the Eldar version of balanced: "We can spam more S D than an apocalypse game and we can do it in a 1000 points game". Wonderful. So, pray tell, how do you justify the fact that you can spam (and people do do this) inordinate levels of D in games that are at the level where other players are usually bringing fun lists and even the hardest trying TFG will struggle to cope with the sheer volumes of D and Wraith Brigade stupidity?

Ultimately this thread was not created to accept fair and balanced criticism and ideas but was instead created so that other users would come along and defend your rose tinted idealistic viewpoint of your army. You wanted us to come along and say things like 'Oh dont listen to those whiners, they dont know anything' '\your army is not broken, it is perfectly balanced' 'Your opponents are scrubs. They need to man up and learn to play'
Well too bad. You asked for suggestions on how to tone the Eldar codex back to sane levels and you got it.
People here are tired of this dickery, hell other Eldar players are tired of being automatically assumed to be TFG's with Wraith Brigade and/or Scatbike Spam lists just because they play a broken army.

In actual fact it is YOU whom needs to 'Learn too Play'. You need to realise that people are not automatically mindless drones whom will agree with you on everything. You need to take of those rose coloured glasses and take a long hard look at your codex and compare it to everything else out there.
And most of all Dman117 you need to stop screaming, wailing and whining at other players just because they disagree with you.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Considering that Imperial Knights are only around 350-450 points, 600 is a bit much.

Considering that Superheavies do not make it so that the majority of their counters(melta and haywire) are degraded almost to the point of uselessness, while Gargantuan Monstrous Creatures do(Poisoned weapons and Sniper)?
600 is right on the money--for a Wraithknight that comes standard with sword/shimmershield. Weapons should be pointed upgrades.

And while yeah, you can say "But grav's a thing!"--it's not a thing for every single army out there, nor is Grav going to outrange the weapons of those GMCs--meaning that if they don't kill it, you've fumbled it with a Suicide Squad.

Sniper weapons are not degraded almost to the point of uselessness against GCs. Against MCs, usually what is important is the 6s anyway, so what reduces their effectivess is mainly FnP. A standard sniper weapon statistically does .11 wound (0.17 x .67) to a Gargantuan Creature per hit. If it were an MC (assume a 3+ armour save) it would do .27 wounds. So it has lost a little more than half its effectiveness.

BTW a radium jezzail is exactly twice as effective as this due to how the rad poisoning rule works.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

 Voidwraith wrote:

Dman137 wrote:
because of there speed there hard to hit, this why the 3+ save, just like ork bikes get the plus one to cover from the dirt cloud.

Dark Eldar Reavers have a 5+ save. Harlequin Skyweavers (or whatever they're called) have a 4+. The fact that they're different from one another is stupid, but not as stupid as Eldar Windriders having a 3+. The fact that they're troops (instead of fast attack as is the case in the DE and Harlequin examples) is just salt in the wound.

Feel free to continue trolling this thread with your horrible punctuation and L2P attitude, but you're attempts at applying reason to justify the way things shook out with the new Eldar codex are insulting to smart people everywhere. Try harder.

You and a lot of you are just being salty

So, allow me to rephrase my previous comment:
You feel that a 25 point model with Ballistic Skill 4, Toughness 4 and a 3+ save and a 2+ Jink that can move 12", fire any weapons it has, and then move again in the Assault phase to get back in to cover/out of LOS and caries a weapon with a range of 36" and can put out an inordinate number of shots per turn is fair, fluffy and fun? And the fact that you can have 10 of these in a single troops choice is even more so?

And we are all whiners because we dont like the idea of trying to get close to these immensely powerful units which can tear us a new one from across the board where we can not retaliate?

Yes troll, keep on going.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ah, why the hell are we even bothering?

Dman117, you started this thread by asking for advice on how to make the Eldar more balanced, something that was a reasonable and well thought out request.

You have since spent every damn post within this thread having a massive hissy fit whenever anyone suggests doing something about the two cripplingly massive mammoths in this room - namely the Wraith Brigade and the Scatbike Spam. People have suggested reasonable alternatives, like allowing the Jetbikes to only take one heavy weapon per five or even (and I think this is far too generous for a troops choice as good as these) one in three. That way you can still take your Jetbike list but you an no longer forcibly destroy your opponent (the Mod banned me from using the 'R' word ) from across the board. Instead you would have to close with them, playing peek-a-boom from behind LoS blocking cover would no longer work, or at least not as well.

But no. You scream and wail about how terrible this would make them - yes how terrible a 25 point BS4 T4 3+ move in the assault phase as well and bunny hop terrain troops choice - and how they would become useless. Other suggestions such as making them a FA choice - sensible seeing as ever equivalent unit in every other codex is a FA choice - and only allowing them to be troops in Saim Hann specific formations have also been screamed down as 'unfluffy' and 'that would make them useless'
Why would it? They would be in the correct slot, their firepower would be toned down to sane levels and you would still be able to Saim Hann.... But certain broken combos would vanish.

What about the Wraith Knight and co? People have suggested making it more expensive, bringing it on par with other units of its type. Right now the Wraith Knight costs less than an Imperial Knight but can easily take on two and destroy them most of the time. It is big, it is nasty and it needs a nerf. So what Grav hurts it - Grav hurts most things. What about Poison? Sniper? It gets to safely ignore those. And oddly enough (and I know that your mind may struggle to comprehend this) not everyone uses Grav. That only two (yes two ) armies within the game has access to Grav should ever so slightly hint that this dreaded and much hated weapon is not the omnipresent monster that you keep insisting it is.
But no, we have more whining and wailing and other players being called 'scrubs' and 'n00bs' and being told to 'L2P'. You insistently ignore the core fact that the Wraith Knight is so massively broken that no other comparative units can stand against it. And this is before we go in to the stupid rules that let it stand with but a toe, yes a fething TOE, in cover and gain a full save from it.

And then we have Wrathguard. Or bloody hell, this just gets better and better. For the price of the humble Melta Gun you can get a Strength D weapon with an extra 6" of range on a unit that is already very durable. Wonderful, the Eldar version of balanced: "We can spam more S D than an apocalypse game and we can do it in a 1000 points game". Wonderful. So, pray tell, how do you justify the fact that you can spam (and people do do this) inordinate levels of D in games that are at the level where other players are usually bringing fun lists and even the hardest trying TFG will struggle to cope with the sheer volumes of D and Wraith Brigade stupidity?

Ultimately this thread was not created to accept fair and balanced criticism and ideas but was instead created so that other users would come along and defend your rose tinted idealistic viewpoint of your army. You wanted us to come along and say things like 'Oh dont listen to those whiners, they dont know anything' '\your army is not broken, it is perfectly balanced' 'Your opponents are scrubs. They need to man up and learn to play'
Well too bad. You asked for suggestions on how to tone the Eldar codex back to sane levels and you got it.
People here are tired of this dickery, hell other Eldar players are tired of being automatically assumed to be TFG's with Wraith Brigade and/or Scatbike Spam lists just because they play a broken army.

In actual fact it is YOU whom needs to 'Learn too Play'. You need to realise that people are not automatically mindless drones whom will agree with you on everything. You need to take of those rose coloured glasses and take a long hard look at your codex and compare it to everything else out there.
And most of all Dman117 you need to stop screaming, wailing and whining at other players just because they disagree with you.

Man you took your sweet time writing that and I could care less lol at the end of the day anyone can nerff within there own gaming group if they wish to, but at events/GT they don't do that (except for D, at some events) eldar is here to stay and as over powered as they are (I have never claimed they weren't) this is where GW is taking things, you think this is bad, wait until tau come out, GW just wants money and eldar made them a lot of it, GW has made 40k a pay to win game. And sure you can tone down windriders but every unit in that book is amazing. Everyone talked about WK and scattbikes but know one talks about dark reapers, hemlocks, crimson hunters, war walkers, Hornets the list goes on. If people really think that fixing the bikes and WK is how to balance the book then they really need to read the book.

20 Kroot snipers with no Markerlight support put .5 x .17 x .67 x 20 = 1.15 wound on a Wraithknight. (with ML bumping them to BS5, it's almost 2 wounds)

10 Deathmarks in RF range, without 2+ to wound stuff, do 1.52.

6 Sidonian Dragoons with radium jezzails (a full squadron) do, with no Doctrina Imperative shenanigans, .67 x .33 x .67 x 12 = 1.78.

Wraithknights cannot safely ignore sniper weapons. You just need them in sufficient numbers.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Statistically, a sniper weapon to a GC is a weapon with a Strength of target's T - 2 and AP2. So for a Wraithknight a sniper rifle is equivalent to a Tau plasma rifle.

Someone lock this kid in a room with a standard 1850 point Ultramarines army until he learns balance within a fairly high-tier army (Not perfect, but balanced)

I think most people will argue that Shining Spears are not amazing, but in fact, rather garbage.

That's not really contributing to the thread though, so I would give them Hit and Run so they could keep using the lance profile.

I am curious though, what would you change in the Craftworlds codex Dman137?

Alcibiades wrote:

20 Kroot snipers with no Markerlight support put .5 x .17 x .67 x 20 = 1.15 wound on a Wraithknight.

20 Kroot Snipers is 140 points.

10 Deathmarks in RF range, without 2+ to wound stuff, do 1.52.

10 Deathmarks is 180 points.

6 Sidonian Dragoons with radium jezzails (a full squadron) do, with no Doctrina Imperative shenanigans, .67 x .33 x .67 x 12 = 1.78.

6 Sydonian Dragoons is 270 points.

And for funsies, 6 Sydonian Dragoons is $294 USD before tax. It costs $179 USD more to buy the counter to a Wraithknight than it does to buy a Wraithknight.

Wraithknights cannot safely ignore sniper weapons. You just need them in sufficient numbers.

So you need to know in advance that someone is bringing a Wraithknight and pigeonhole your list into being able to deal with that, and just that, while the rest of his army can do a large amount of nonsense to yours?

Sounds legit!

 Frozocrone wrote:
I think most people will argue that Shining Spears are not amazing, but in fact, rather garbage.

That's not really contributing to the thread though, so I would give them Hit and Run so they could keep using the lance profile.

I am curious though, what would you change in the Craftworlds codex Dman137?

WK- 350base with either 1 Wraithcannon(40pts) or 2 D-sythes (20pts each) no split fire.
Scattbikes become fast attack (scatter lasers are 15pts) have a option for a saim-Hann formation.
Aspect host formations stay the same ( the +1 bs is good but you do have to take 3 units of aspect hosts, and it's not that crazy)
Banchees need to be able to move 12" (they are to slow)
d-cannons become d-sythe cannons.
Shining spears need to be better (cuz they suck, hit and run would be good or even 2 attacks base)
Runes of fate, most things can stay the same, but get rid of the upgrade for the farseer that makes thing -1 warp charge.
Eldrick storm is warp charge 3 large blast or warp charge 2 small blast. (Same stats tho, but 18" range)
That's to name a few... Other secs that need a fix necrons (that's a long list) and marines need 2 wounds on unit Srg.

Dman137 wrote:Man you took your sweet time writing that and I could care less lol at the end of the day anyone can nerff within there own gaming group if they wish to, but at events/GT they don't do that (except for D, at some events) eldar is here to stay and as over powered as they are (I have never claimed they weren't) this is where GW is taking things, you think this is bad, wait until tau come out, GW just wants money and eldar made them a lot of it, GW has made 40k a pay to win game. And sure you can tone down windriders but every unit in that book is amazing. Everyone talked about WK and scattbikes but know one talks about dark reapers, hemlocks, crimson hunters, war walkers, Hornets the list goes on. If people really think that fixing the bikes and WK is how to balance the book then they really need to read the book.

Except the TOs at event have shown that they are more than willing to enforce their own house rules on any participants at the event. In fact, some of these house rules have proved so popular that other groups have adopted them for their own use. GW has made it clear that they are willing to break/imbalance the game to sell models, but GW isn't in charge of the game. The players are in charge, and it's up to them to create some sort of balance out of the game via informal agreements and house rules.

You say that Eldar are overpowered, but it seems to me like you just want to rub it in everyone else's face rather than try to tone Eldar down in a sportsmanlike fashion. I genuinely hope that GW does not give Tau the same treatment, as that army is hated enough already. Fortunately, if the latest codex release is anything to go by, Tau will merely be a top-tier army with at east one ridiculous new gimmick that the tournament scene will have to adapt around.

No one is denying that Eldar are a powerful book, what with their formations and buffs to Aspect Warriors, but if you remove the Scatbikers and D-weapons and the Wraithknight the book is balanced against the top-tier books and the latest releases. The problem them becomes bringing all the other pre-Necron books up to the same standard.

 TheNewBlood wrote:

Dman137 wrote:Man you took your sweet time writing that and I could care less lol at the end of the day anyone can nerff within there own gaming group if they wish to, but at events/GT they don't do that (except for D, at some events) eldar is here to stay and as over powered as they are (I have never claimed they weren't) this is where GW is taking things, you think this is bad, wait until tau come out, GW just wants money and eldar made them a lot of it, GW has made 40k a pay to win game. And sure you can tone down windriders but every unit in that book is amazing. Everyone talked about WK and scattbikes but know one talks about dark reapers, hemlocks, crimson hunters, war walkers, Hornets the list goes on. If people really think that fixing the bikes and WK is how to balance the book then they really need to read the book.

Except the TOs at event have shown that they are more than willing to enforce their own house rules on any participants at the event. In fact, some of these house rules have proved so popular that other groups have adopted them for their own use. GW has made it clear that they are willing to break/imbalance the game to sell models, but GW isn't in charge of the game. The players are in charge, and it's up to them to create some sort of balance out of the game via informal agreements and house rules.

You say that Eldar are overpowered, but it seems to me like you just want to rub it in everyone else's face rather than try to tone Eldar down in a sportsmanlike fashion. I genuinely hope that GW does not give Tau the same treatment, as that army is hated enough already. Fortunately, if the latest codex release is anything to go by, Tau will merely be a top-tier army with at east one ridiculous new gimmick that the tournament scene will have to adapt around.

No one is denying that Eldar are a powerful book, what with their formations and buffs to Aspect Warriors, but if you remove the Scatbikers and D-weapons and the Wraithknight the book is balanced against the top-tier books and the latest releases. The problem them becomes bringing all the other pre-Necron books up to the same standard.

I've seen some comp systems at events and some are good, some not so good but none the less they are needed not just for eldar but for many other books/units. I feel like necrons need a bit of a tone down 4+ RP is crazy, wraiths did not need to be T5

Dman137 wrote:

 Frozocrone wrote:
I think most people will argue that Shining Spears are not amazing, but in fact, rather garbage.

That's not really contributing to the thread though, so I would give them Hit and Run so they could keep using the lance profile.

I am curious though, what would you change in the Craftworlds codex Dman137?

WK- 350base with either 1 Wraithcannon(40pts) or 2 D-sythes (20pts each) no split fire.
Scattbikes become fast attack (scatter lasers are 15pts) have a option for a saim-Hann formation.
Aspect host formations stay the same ( the +1 bs is good but you do have to take 3 units of aspect hosts, and it's not that crazy)
Banchees need to be able to move 12" (they are to slow)
d-cannons become d-sythe cannons.
Shining spears need to be better (cuz they suck, hit and run would be good or even 2 attacks base)
Runes of fate, most things can stay the same, but get rid of the upgrade for the farseer that makes thing -1 warp charge.
Eldrick storm is warp charge 3 large blast or warp charge 2 small blast. (Same stats tho, but 18" range)
That's to name a few... Other secs that need a fix necrons (that's a long list) and marines need 2 wounds on unit Srg.

The ability to choose any target is inherent to superheavies. Change it to an MC if you want to restrict its shooting.

The problem is that Scatbikers are broken no matter where you put them due to their sheer dice output. Something needs to be done about their level of firepower.

Believe it or not, Banshees are pretty mobile now. They move as fast a Daemonettes or Hormugants, and are even faster with Jain Zar.

D-weapons, even with their "nerf" are still too powerful. They don't scale; they just kill whatever it is they shoot at. The old 6th edition Distort rules were better.

Fortune needs to be toned down to prevent re-roll shenanigans. Maybe only have it affect armour or cover saves. The Spirit Stone of Anath'lan needs to be a 25 point relic, but other than that it has a big downside for what it can provide. Eldrich Storm needs to lose its Apoc Blast, but other than that 24" is a solid range for it.

I can see veteran seargants/champions of chaos having two wounds base. The only thing really nasty about Necrons is the Canoptek Harvest formation and undercosted Wraiths.

I think what the issue boils down to is that Eldar have a bit of the best of both worlds-they can field elite-army style units at a sufficiently low price in points to field a *lot* of these elite units.

 TheNewBlood wrote:
The ability to choose any target is inherent to superheavies. Change it to an MC if you want to restrict its shooting.

Honestly, it should still be a Walker.
SHW to keep its shooting split, or could make it a plain old ordinary Walker (like a Sentinel or Dreadnought) if you wanted to take that away (and make it vulnerable to the vehicle damage table).

Honestly though if the WK is to get price-raised then it should probably be a Super Heavy. Making an expensive Lord of War a plain old ordinary Walker would probably take it too far in the other direction.
It certainly needs a nerf, but screwing over everyone who bought one would suck.

Dman137 wrote:

The % of SM players is very high and all competitive builds have grav in a pod, so the wraithknight is dead.

False.
-in ITC events from February to current date, marines are 16% of the field average. That's about 1 in 6 players. Eldar are only 2% behind that, so about 1 in 7. Torrent of fire's most recent army popularity graph is pretty close to that as well.

-I play with mostly marines in my army, and as soon as my last score from this weekend gets added, and assuming there isn't some huge shift in the meantime, I should be in the top 10 (yay!) and I don't run a single grav weapon. So not every competitive marine army will have them.

niv-mizzet wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

The % of SM players is very high and all competitive builds have grav in a pod, so the wraithknight is dead.

False.
-in ITC events from February to current date, marines are 16% of the field average. That's about 1 in 6 players. Eldar are only 2% behind that, so about 1 in 7. Torrent of fire's most recent army popularity graph is pretty close to that as well.

-I play with mostly marines in my army, and as soon as my last score from this weekend gets added, and assuming there isn't some huge shift in the meantime, I should be in the top 10 (yay!) and I don't run a single grav weapon. So not every competitive marine army will have them.

what do you run in your army then, to be in the top 10 I would assume something (congrats on top 10 btw)

Dman137 wrote:

niv-mizzet wrote:

Dman137 wrote:

The % of SM players is very high and all competitive builds have grav in a pod, so the wraithknight is dead.

False.
-in ITC events from February to current date, marines are 16% of the field average. That's about 1 in 6 players. Eldar are only 2% behind that, so about 1 in 7. Torrent of fire's most recent army popularity graph is pretty close to that as well.

-I play with mostly marines in my army, and as soon as my last score from this weekend gets added, and assuming there isn't some huge shift in the meantime, I should be in the top 10 (yay!) and I don't run a single grav weapon. So not every competitive marine army will have them.

what do you run in your army then, to be in the top 10 I would assume something (congrats on top 10 btw)

Thanks! And for one event it was pure BA with an anti-meta double land raider list for when serpent spam and flyrants were big things. After the eldar and marine dexes, I switched to white scars battle company, man-spam version (there's only 165 points of wargear, mostly meltaguns, in the list iirc) for the next 3 events. At this last event I even had to beat a mirror match where the opponent did the more traditional white scars battle co with Kahn, grav cannons in rhinos, upgraded guns on the razors etc.

As an aside, battle co vs battle co is an awesome game to play.

To say something that hasn't been said a lot reduce wave serpent resistance

Also remove the jump shoot jump style that the bikes now have and let tau have one thing no one else does.

Also on a more personal note battle focus is just stupid. Its way too widespread.

I know I'm going to get dissed for this but the next time someone says get rid of battle focus, just think how you'd feel if your chapter tactics/mob rule/Mark/overwatch BS/RP was taken, isn't that what sets eldar apart as units is the stats and army wide rule?

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
I know I'm going to get dissed for this but the next time someone says get rid of battle focus, just think how you'd feel if your chapter tactics/mob rule/Mark/overwatch BS/RP was taken, isn't that what sets eldar apart as units is the stats and army wide rule?

Not that I'm really on either side of the question, but, to be fair, Battle Focus is a relatively recent rule, having only been a facet of the Eldar's rules for 2 of the game's 28 years, it's hardly a longstanding aspect of the faction. Marks of Chaos have existed for basically the entire existence of the faction.

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
I know I'm going to get dissed for this but the next time someone says get rid of battle focus, just think how you'd feel if your chapter tactics/mob rule/Mark/overwatch BS/RP was taken, isn't that what sets eldar apart as units is the stats and army wide rule?

The what rule? I have been playing since 4th and my older Brother since just before the advent of 3rd and neither of us can find any reference to anything like this in any of our stuff, even the Eldar focussed stuff.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 hiveof_chimera wrote:
I know I'm going to get dissed for this but the next time someone says get rid of battle focus, just think how you'd feel if your chapter tactics/mob rule/Mark/overwatch BS/RP was taken, isn't that what sets eldar apart as units is the stats and army wide rule?

The what rule? I have been playing since 4th and my older Brother since just before the advent of 3rd and neither of us can find any reference to anything like this in any of our stuff, even the Eldar focussed stuff.

Yeah I've been playing as long as that and that's exactly my point, they never had a rule like it and now they've been given one and people want to strip it away.