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 Kilkrazy wrote:

 dogma wrote:
If we're talking about preventing young women from being forced to deal with body image issues, then shouldn't the argument be that any instance in which they are forced to expose their bodies in front of another person be avoided? The same goes for young men, of course, as they also frequently suffer from body image issues and the sexual assaults triggers that Stanman mentioned.

Indeed, what about the possibility of lesbian girls in the class?

What about it?

a lesbian probably wouldnt have a diddly doo hanging down there.

 stanman wrote:
I don't think the kid honestly even cares, he's figured out he can get a reaction from people and is doing it for the attention. He has a grin ear to ear while being interviewed because it's amusing to him and he's enjoying be a douchebag and he knows he's pissing everyone off.

It boils down to a massive sense of entitlement:

trans student: I don't feel comfortable changing in the mens room, I feel threatened and intimidated so I want to be in the womens.

school: Umm... we get that you're uncomfortable, but by allowing that it will also make the girls pretty uncomfortable.

trans student: So?

school: How about we give you a separate room so that you don't have to change with the men and won't be making the girls uncomfortable?

trans student: No! this is about my feelings, the girls don't matter,

school: That's not really being considerate of your classmates...

trans student: Feth those other kids, it's all about me and only me.

school: Facepalms

We get to make up the interviews now?

This kind of post doesn't help further either side of the argument at all.

And the pronouns are 'she'.

Crystal-Maze. Looks at one side of the coin exclusively. "It's heads"
Stanman. Looks at the other side exclusively. "Its tails".
Both are right in a way neither captures the whole picture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Commenting on the her/his etc comment.

 Desubot wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 dogma wrote:
If we're talking about preventing young women from being forced to deal with body image issues, then shouldn't the argument be that any instance in which they are forced to expose their bodies in front of another person be avoided? The same goes for young men, of course, as they also frequently suffer from body image issues and the sexual assaults triggers that Stanman mentioned.

Indeed, what about the possibility of lesbian girls in the class?

What about it?

a lesbian probably wouldnt have a diddly doo hanging down there.

Is the problem the chance of someone seeing a penis? Well, a girl seeing a penis. People don't seem to be worried about boys seeing penises.

Crystal-Maze wrote:


And the pronouns are 'she'.

He, she, it, ze, unicorn, call them whatever you want. Addressing somebody with a penis as male isn't some sort of crime.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 dogma wrote:
If we're talking about preventing young women from being forced to deal with body image issues, then shouldn't the argument be that any instance in which they are forced to expose their bodies in front of another person be avoided? The same goes for young men, of course, as they also frequently suffer from body image issues and the sexual assaults triggers that Stanman mentioned.

Indeed, what about the possibility of lesbian girls in the class?

What about it?

a lesbian probably wouldnt have a diddly doo hanging down there.

Is the problem the chance of someone seeing a penis? Well, a girl seeing a penis. People don't seem to be worried about boys seeing penises.

They dont worry about it in the boys bathroom no. because thats where its expected.

 stanman wrote:

Crystal-Maze wrote:


And the pronouns are 'she'.

He, she, it, ze, unicorn, call them whatever you want. Addressing somebody with a penis as male isn't some sort of crime.

If you can't be bothered to treat the other side of the debate with a little human decency, don't bother participating. 'Them' is not some nebulous group who are out there but not encountered in real life.
There are trans users on dakka, and its users like you that make them feel unwelcome.

Its not a crime, but most manners are not legislated. Its a basic mark of respect. Use the pronouns people choose for themselves.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Crystal-Maze. Looks at one side of the coin exclusively. "It's heads"
Stanman. Looks at the other side exclusively. "Its tails".
Both are right in a way neither captures the whole picture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Commenting on the her/his etc comment.

Why is it right to adress someone with the pronouns they didn't choose? (Referring to the 'both are right' bit)

I would like to link to this post explaining trans people reasonably briefly again because it is important for people to understand it to participate meaningfully in the discussion.

Also, misgendering people is actually not very Polite.

 Desubot wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 dogma wrote:
If we're talking about preventing young women from being forced to deal with body image issues, then shouldn't the argument be that any instance in which they are forced to expose their bodies in front of another person be avoided? The same goes for young men, of course, as they also frequently suffer from body image issues and the sexual assaults triggers that Stanman mentioned.

Indeed, what about the possibility of lesbian girls in the class?

What about it?

a lesbian probably wouldnt have a diddly doo hanging down there.

Is the problem the chance of someone seeing a penis? Well, a girl seeing a penis. People don't seem to be worried about boys seeing penises.

They dont worry about it in the boys bathroom no. because thats where its expected.

Why aren't penises expected to be seen in the girls' bathroom? Because the bathrooms are segregated because circular argument.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Also, misgendering people is actually not very Polite.

Know what else isn't polite? taking a penis into a girls locker room.

The entire issue here is created because one person feels that they are more important than the rest of the school and feels that they are entitled to walk roughshod over the feelings and objections of their classmates simply to prove a point.

Why should I show respect towards a person who's already firmly demonstrated that they have no respect for the concerns of anyone else? (speaking specifically of Lila Perry and not other persons on here)

 Grey Templar wrote:
Depends on the local laws, but at the very least you might be looking at a fine. But in a lot of places you might end up on the sex offender registry.

Hmmm... better not put these bad boys on display then...



They are apparently based off astrological signs but they sure do look like man and girl parts!

Also, the male and female silhouettes are obviously naked under their clothes... hope all the bathrooms in the country aren't shut down for this horrifically vile assault on our modesty!

Crystal-Maze wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Crystal-Maze. Looks at one side of the coin exclusively. "It's heads"
Stanman. Looks at the other side exclusively. "Its tails".
Both are right in a way neither captures the whole picture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Commenting on the her/his etc comment.

Why is it right to adress someone with the pronouns they didn't choose? (Referring to the 'both are right' bit)

The English language doesn't have different pronouns for sex and gender. So one uses the pronoun she focusing on gender and is appropriate in using it. The other uses the pronoun he focusing on sex and is appropriate in using it.

Turning your question back to you, why is it right to insist someone say things they don't believe?

If Lila is able to impregnate a woman, there is a valid, rational reason to use masculine pronouns when referring to him/her.

 stanman wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Also, misgendering people is actually not very Polite.

Know what else isn't polite? taking a penis into a girls locker room.

The entire issue here is created because one person feels that they are more important than the rest of the school and feels that they are entitled to walk roughshod over their feelings and objections simply to prove a point.

Why should I show respect towards a person who's already firmly demonstrated that they have no respect for the concerns of anyone else? (speaking specifically of Lila Perry and not other persons on here)

She's a girl, so she uses the girls' locker room. That's really how simple it is.

When you act like her gender is conditional, what you are saying is the gender of all trans people is conditional on whether you feel they are acting appropriately. That is an act of violence against all trans people and it is not OK.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
I would like to link to this post explaining trans people reasonably briefly again because it is important for people to understand it to participate meaningfully in the discussion.

Also, misgendering people is actually not very Polite.

Well that blogger tried to make out having extra chromosomes is normal and people with extra chromosomes are misgendered (I think women with 3X chromosomes are the only case where having extra chromosomes does not physically deform you). The blogger is also unable to understand why most people are men and women and not something else (nobody understands why men are men and women are women in 99.99% of cases apparently).

I would take anything this blogger says with a grain of salt. I didn't know down syndrome was a gender...

I mean come on:

Chromosomes, too, vary. If you thought “XX” and “XY” were the only two possible combinations, you have some serious googling to do. In addition to variations like XXY, XXYY, or X, sometimes cis people find out that they are genetically the “opposite” of what they though they were– that is, a ‘typical’ cis man can be XX, a ‘normal’ cis woman can be XY.

People with Y always come out male, people with no Y always come out female (with obvious incredibly rare anomalies, but anomalies happen with everything). All the Chromosomes the person wrote about above are... deformities and still conform to Y = Male (in various combinations all ending in deformity except XY) and Female = XX (anything else also has physical deformities except XXX).

Please do not read this article as anything other than a bloggers opinion.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:

Crystal-Maze wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
Crystal-Maze. Looks at one side of the coin exclusively. "It's heads"
Stanman. Looks at the other side exclusively. "Its tails".
Both are right in a way neither captures the whole picture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Commenting on the her/his etc comment.

Why is it right to adress someone with the pronouns they didn't choose? (Referring to the 'both are right' bit)

The English language doesn't have different pronouns for sex and gender. So one uses the pronoun she focusing on gender and is appropriate in using it. The other uses the pronoun he focusing on sex and is appropriate in using it.

Turning your question back to you, why is it right to insist someone say things they don't believe?

If Lila is able to impregnate a woman, there is a valid, rational reason to use masculine pronouns when referring to him/her.

You use "her" for the same reason people shouldn't be called bigots, because it's disrespectful and not polite.

Also you use "her" because if you don't you are being disrespectful to every other transgender person reading this thread.

Maybe you can use "her" just so that you can feel like you can be a bigger and better person than the disrespectful penis owner.

 Psienesis wrote:
Yeah... the US is rather... schizophrenic when it comes to our naughty bits. Like... it's apparently the Apocalypse to be naked in front of people in a non-sexual venue (like the locker room at the gym) but it's A-OK to send pictures of your wedding tackle to strangers on Instagram and Twitter?

I... don't "get" America sometimes.

Um, who in America says it's ok to send picture of junk to strangers on Twitter and Instagram? Last I heard people get in trouble for that if they're found out unless laws have changed.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

She's a girl, so she uses the girls' locker room. That's really how simple it is.

When you act like her gender is conditional, what you are saying is the gender of all trans people is conditional on whether you feel they are acting appropriately. That is an act of violence against all trans people and it is not OK.

Here's where your deliberately missing the point, I am not addressing him by gender I am addressing him by his sex, which is also where I feel the line should be drawn in who uses which locker room. If you are of the male sex and have a penis then you use the mens room, if you are of the female sex and have vagina you use the womens room. Outside of that I don't care one bit about what trans people do outside of the locker rooms.

The refusal to acknowledge sex as having any meaning is as irrational as the refusal to acknowledge gender as having any meaning. It is not, despite your protestations to the contrary, a simple matter of what a person says there are they are. Just because one thinks of oneself as a boy doesn't mean one ceases menstruating or can impregnate a woman. Those functions remain distinct biological functions reserved for one sex or the other and what your brain tells you has nothing to do with it. Doesn't mean the girl that thinks she's a boy should be forced to wear pink dresses. There is nuance here. Ignoring it doesn't change that.

 Kilkrazy wrote:


Why aren't penises expected to be seen in the girls' bathroom? Because the bathrooms are segregated because circular argument.

Circular argument?

Its a Designated bathroom for girls because it was designated as such by the community that wants it that way.

its entirely expected and reasonable for girls within a girls bathroom to not have to see a penis.
its entirely expected and reasonable for boys within a boys bathroom to not have to see a vagina.
its entirely expected and reasonable for boys and girls to see both parts in a unisex/Neutral bathroom.

its why its designated in the first place.

 Chongara wrote:

Sex Organs and the sex with have with them are just all around better than violence, no matter how you measure it.

I saw what you did there!

 Desubot wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


Why aren't penises expected to be seen in the girls' bathroom? Because the bathrooms are segregated because circular argument.

Circular argument?

Its a Designated bathroom for girls because it was designated as such by the community that wants it that way.

its entirely expected and reasonable for girls within a girls bathroom to not have to see a penis.
its entirely expected and reasonable for boys within a boys bathroom to not have to see a vagina.
its entirely expected and reasonable for boys and girls to see both parts in a unisex/Neutral bathroom.

its why its designated in the first place.

It's a girls' bathroom because we say it's a girl's bathroom.

Why do we say it is a girls' bathroom? Because it is for girls.

Relapse wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Yeah... the US is rather... schizophrenic when it comes to our naughty bits. Like... it's apparently the Apocalypse to be naked in front of people in a non-sexual venue (like the locker room at the gym) but it's A-OK to send pictures of your wedding tackle to strangers on Instagram and Twitter?

I... don't "get" America sometimes.

Um, who in America says it's ok to send picture of junk to strangers on Twitter and Instagram? Last I heard people get in trouble for that if they're found out unless laws have changed.

It's rude, not illegal.

 Kilkrazy wrote:


It's a girls' bathroom because we say it's a girl's bathroom.

Why do we say it is a girls' bathroom? Because it is for girls.

So you are saying its reasonable and expected for a penis to walk into a girls bathroom for all the girls to see?

 Swastakowey wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
I would like to link to this post explaining trans people reasonably briefly again because it is important for people to understand it to participate meaningfully in the discussion.

Also, misgendering people is actually not very Polite.

Well that blogger tried to make out having extra chromosomes is normal and people with extra chromosomes are misgendered (I think women with 3X chromosomes are the only case where having extra chromosomes does not physically deform you). The blogger is also unable to understand why most people are men and women and not something else (nobody understands why men are men and women are women in 99.99% of cases apparently).

I would take anything this blogger says with a grain of salt. I didn't know down syndrome was a gender...

I mean come on:

Chromosomes, too, vary. If you thought “XX” and “XY” were the only two possible combinations, you have some serious googling to do. In addition to variations like XXY, XXYY, or X, sometimes cis people find out that they are genetically the “opposite” of what they though they were– that is, a ‘typical’ cis man can be XX, a ‘normal’ cis woman can be XY.

People with Y always come out male, people with no Y always come out female (with obvious incredibly rare anomalies, but anomalies happen with everything). All the Chromosomes the person wrote about above are... deformities and still conform to Y = Male (in various combinations all ending in deformity except XY) and Female = XX (anything else also has physical deformities except XXX).

Some of them are pretty rare and some aren't, with incidences of e.g. one in five hundred. Some of these "defects," again, are people who do not even know they have any kind of condition at all. You have interacted with them and never known it.

 stanman wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

She's a girl, so she uses the girls' locker room. That's really how simple it is.

When you act like her gender is conditional, what you are saying is the gender of all trans people is conditional on whether you feel they are acting appropriately. That is an act of violence against all trans people and it is not OK.

Here's where your deliberately missing the point, I am not addressing him by gender I am addressing him by his sex, which is also where I feel the line should be drawn in who uses which locker room. If you are of the male sex and have a penis then you use the mens room, if you are of the female sex and have vagina you use the womens room. Outside of that I don't care one bit about what trans people do outside of the locker rooms.

We don't address people by their sex, we address them by their gender. That's why, for example, I don't need to look in your pants to know what to call you.

Gwaihirsbrother wrote:
The refusal to acknowledge sex as having any meaning is as irrational as the refusal to acknowledge gender as having any meaning. It is not, despite your protestations to the contrary, a simple matter of what a person says there are they are. Just because one thinks of oneself as a boy doesn't mean one ceases menstruating or can impregnate a woman. Those functions remain distinct biological functions reserved for one sex or the other and what your brain tells you has nothing to do with it. Doesn't mean the girl that thinks she's a boy should be forced to wear pink dresses. There is nuance here. Ignoring it doesn't change that.

And you don't stop calling someone "she" because she has a hysterectomy, and you don't stop calling someone "he" if he's infertile, because those things are irrelevant to a person's gender.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


It's a girls' bathroom because we say it's a girl's bathroom.

Why do we say it is a girls' bathroom? Because it is for girls.

So you are saying its reasonable and expected for a penis to walk into a girls bathroom for all the girls to see?

I would be very disturbed if I was in the bathroom and saw a penis walk in.

 Desubot wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


It's a girls' bathroom because we say it's a girl's bathroom.

Why do we say it is a girls' bathroom? Because it is for girls.

So you are saying its reasonable and expected for a penis to walk into a girls bathroom for all the girls to see?

No, absolutely not. What I am saying is that the reasons why we are against that are due to social prejudices resulting from sexual hangups, not because boys catch cooties from seeing a girl's pubis, or girls get pregnant from seeing a boy's penis.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
I would like to link to this post explaining trans people reasonably briefly again because it is important for people to understand it to participate meaningfully in the discussion.

Also, misgendering people is actually not very Polite.

Well that blogger tried to make out having extra chromosomes is normal and people with extra chromosomes are misgendered (I think women with 3X chromosomes are the only case where having extra chromosomes does not physically deform you). The blogger is also unable to understand why most people are men and women and not something else (nobody understands why men are men and women are women in 99.99% of cases apparently).

I would take anything this blogger says with a grain of salt. I didn't know down syndrome was a gender...

I mean come on:

Chromosomes, too, vary. If you thought “XX” and “XY” were the only two possible combinations, you have some serious googling to do. In addition to variations like XXY, XXYY, or X, sometimes cis people find out that they are genetically the “opposite” of what they though they were– that is, a ‘typical’ cis man can be XX, a ‘normal’ cis woman can be XY.

People with Y always come out male, people with no Y always come out female (with obvious incredibly rare anomalies, but anomalies happen with everything). All the Chromosomes the person wrote about above are... deformities and still conform to Y = Male (in various combinations all ending in deformity except XY) and Female = XX (anything else also has physical deformities except XXX).

Some of them are pretty rare and some aren't, with incidences of e.g. one in five hundred. Some of these "defects," again, are people who do not even know they have any kind of condition at all. You have interacted with them and never known it.

Actually most of these defects have physical traits (with XXX women being the exception), of course some are more severe than others. But the blogger is still very incorrect about chromosomes. A Y is still going to be male, and no Y is still going to be female, no matter the combination. To argue otherwise shows what kind of person this blogger is (a hint, not someone to listen to).

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

When you act like her gender is conditional, what you are saying is the gender of all trans people is conditional on whether you feel they are acting appropriately. That is an act of violence against all trans people and it is not OK.

Extremely rude and wrong, yes, but an act of violence? I am curious as to how?

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:


It's a girls' bathroom because we say it's a girl's bathroom.

Why do we say it is a girls' bathroom? Because it is for girls.

So you are saying its reasonable and expected for a penis to walk into a girls bathroom for all the girls to see?

No, absolutely not. What I am saying is that the reasons why we are against that are due to social prejudices resulting from sexual hangups, not because boys catch cooties from seeing a girl's pubis, or girls get pregnant from seeing a boy's penis.

Well of course not, don't be silly. But what if they touch a towel that was used to dry a penis? That's a one way ticket baby city. It's just a risk you can't take, especially since once one girl gets pregnant they rest are sure to catch it. Once that stuff goes airborne, it just doesn't stop until you've got a whole nursery full of little ones.

 Swastakowey wrote:

Actually most of these defects have physical traits (with XXX women being the exception), of course some are more severe than others. But the blogger is still very incorrect about chromosomes. A Y is still going to be male, and no Y is still going to be female, no matter the combination. To argue otherwise shows what kind of person this blogger is (a hint, not someone to listen to).

The Intersex Society of North America disagrees with you, as does wikipedia and, apparently, medical science.

Thanks for reading the link, by the way.

 MrDwhitey wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:

When you act like her gender is conditional, what you are saying is the gender of all trans people is conditional on whether you feel they are acting appropriately. That is an act of violence against all trans people and it is not OK.

Extremely rude and wrong, yes, but an act of violence? I am curious as to how?

We all know the word here is being used to mean "To aggressively cause harm" here with the harm is societal and emotional, which is a mostly appropriate application of the word even if it falls outside the usual general usage. Let's not play semantics because we want to spring a "Gotcha!" on it not involving punching anyone in the face.