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Dman137 wrote: You guys must be out to lunch if you think that list isn't broken
You must be out to a 7 course banquet if you think that Eldar scatter bikes aren't broken.
Here's a thing, eldar scatter bikes put out approximately double the amount of S6 shooting at all ranges than an equal points value of Tau Crisis suits with dual plasma rifles when the Crisis suits are in rapid fire range.
Lets look at the guns first:
Scatter Lasers have longer range (36" vs 24")
Thanks to being Heavy 4 vs the Plasma Rifles Rapid Fire they put out double the shots of 2 plasma rifles at ranges greater than 12" and the same number of shots at ranges which are 12" or less.
To counter this the Scatter Laser has less armour penetration.
Now lets look at the platforms carrying the gun:
A Crisis Suit can move 6", a D6" run, 2D6" thrust move. It is T4 with a 3+ save and has 2 wounds.
Jetbike can move move 12", 36" turbo boost and have a 2D6" thrust move if they don't turbo boost. They are T4 with a 3+ save and have 1 wound.
So the Scatter Laser beats the Plasma Rifle on all things except armour penetration. The Jetbike is much more mobile than a Crisis Suit, equally as tough with an identical armour save but only has one wound vs the Crisis' 2.
Now lets compare points.
A Crisis Shas'ui with two plasma Rifles and no support system costs 52 points.
An Eldar Jetbike with scatter laser costs 27 points.
So the Eldar jetbike is almost half the cost of the Crisis suit, allowing you to effectively take double the amount of jetbike models as Crisis Suits for the same cost.
The effect of this? The extra wound which the Crisis Suit has is effectively void, an equal points value of Scatter Bikes will put out 4X as many S6 shots as Crisis suits at ranges over 12" and 2X as many at ranges 12" and below, the jetbike is more manoeuvrable and it is also a troop choice, allowing it to have objective secured (and before you say Crisis can be troop choices, only in a Farsight Enclaves list in which case they have to buy the bonding Knife ritual which adds extra cost and so skews it even more in favour of the jetbikes).
So why is a troop choice more powerful in every sense than an elite choice in what is meant to be the shootiest army in the game?
The man has a point. Eldar Jetbikes are just too darn cheap to not be considered broken.
People would bitch pretty hard if for 13 pts more all tactical marines got relentless, heavy bolters, 12" moves, and could ignore terrain, and that STILL wouldn't be as bad as scatbikes.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
That is supposed list he brought I might be wrong since I found it on bols.
Need a fix of this? Remove invisibility would solve lots of issues
Sammael
– DA Chaplain on bike (Fearless – Hatred)
– RW Command Squad on Bikes (Ravenwing Banner) – Apothecary
– DA Scouts
– DA Tacs in Rhino
– Wolf Guard Battle Leader on ThunderWolf Mount (Thunderhammer – Stormshield – Runic Armor)
– 3x Iron Priest on ThunderWolf Mount
– Blood Claws in Rhino
– Grey Hunters in Rhino
– 3x Biker Librarians (Conclave)
– Rune Priest Biker
Dman137 wrote: did you see the player pack, the tables were covered in LOSBT and having a unit that's T5, 3+ cover save re-rolling, invisible, casts everything on a 2+, fearless the buffs go on and on and your telling me that this guy is a amazing player.? The list plays it self lol turbo boots up, multi-charge and then last turn spilt off into 9 units and grab objectives. Yeah real tactical genius lol
I'm not saying that this list isn't a fine example of tournament-grade cheese. What I am saying is that without house rules Eldar would have won NOVA, and most every other tournament since their new codex dropped.
Also, are you seriously saying that this list "plays it self"? What, sitting back in a corner with Scatter Lasers is the pinnacle of tactical genius?
master of ordinance wrote:
Dman137 wrote: This guy is exactly what a WAAC player is lol and the scouts just sit in all the cover and just go to ground all game
Scouts in cover going to ground are doing almost nothing in the entire game and as a result are not pulling their weight (points).
WAAC player? Pot, the kettle just called....
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dman137 wrote: This guy is exactly what a WAAC player is lol and the scouts just sit in all the cover and just go to ground all game
Dman137 wrote: It's been clearly noted that people hate on eldar a lot but yet lists like the one that won the NOVAGT people seem to be fine with. Clearly theres a issue here.
That is because most Eldar players are not actually good at all but rather use OP units (Scatbikes, WraithBrigade) to win - sorry, curbstomp - the enemy in a couple of turns. What TO's do is limit the number of these OP units that can be brought and/or house rule a few slight nerfs to them so that they are brought back down to a balanced level.
This, of course, means that said Eldar players are forced to rely on skill and brainpower to win, rather than the same stupidly over powered crap being spammed again and again, resulting in the predictable outcome: They lose. Heavily.
My thoughts exactly. Dman137 is not exactly the world's best judge of "WAAC" or "TFG" players, as has been repeatedly proven.
krodarklorr wrote:
Dman137 wrote: If people want to nerf eldar, this list is a example of other things that need to be nerffed.
It's just an example of how broken Allies are when exploited.
That doesn't change the fact that Eldar without allies are the most broken codex currently.
Solo 2016!
This is also an example of why I like the ITC ruleset: 2+ re-rollable is changed to a 2+/4+, and Invisibility reduces enemy units' shooting to BS1.
chaosmarauder wrote:Could we maybe just limit the number of IC allowed to be in a unit at once? 3?
Then we can leave the eldar nerfs as is and still allow lots of allies?
I like the spirit of that idea, but the problem is in the nature of ICs. How do you account for the fact that two (or more) ICs can hold hands to become a single unit?
I think that you should only be able to pull from up to two sources (i.e. codexes, supplements, formations) for your army. That would prevent the NOVA winning list from happening, for example.
Dman137 wrote: You guys must be out to lunch if you think that list isn't broken
You must be out to a 7 course banquet if you think that Eldar scatter bikes aren't broken.
Here's a thing, eldar scatter bikes put out approximately double the amount of S6 shooting at all ranges than an equal points value of Tau Crisis suits with dual plasma rifles when the Crisis suits are in rapid fire range.
Lets look at the guns first:
Scatter Lasers have longer range (36" vs 24")
Thanks to being Heavy 4 vs the Plasma Rifles Rapid Fire they put out double the shots of 2 plasma rifles at ranges greater than 12" and the same number of shots at ranges which are 12" or less.
To counter this the Scatter Laser has less armour penetration.
Now lets look at the platforms carrying the gun:
A Crisis Suit can move 6", a D6" run, 2D6" thrust move. It is T4 with a 3+ save and has 2 wounds.
Jetbike can move move 12", 36" turbo boost and have a 2D6" thrust move if they don't turbo boost. They are T4 with a 3+ save and have 1 wound.
So the Scatter Laser beats the Plasma Rifle on all things except armour penetration. The Jetbike is much more mobile than a Crisis Suit, equally as tough with an identical armour save but only has one wound vs the Crisis' 2.
Now lets compare points.
A Crisis Shas'ui with two plasma Rifles and no support system costs 52 points.
An Eldar Jetbike with scatter laser costs 27 points.
So the Eldar jetbike is almost half the cost of the Crisis suit, allowing you to effectively take double the amount of jetbike models as Crisis Suits for the same cost.
The effect of this? The extra wound which the Crisis Suit has is effectively void, an equal points value of Scatter Bikes will put out 4X as many S6 shots as Crisis suits at ranges over 12" and 2X as many at ranges 12" and below, the jetbike is more manoeuvrable and it is also a troop choice, allowing it to have objective secured (and before you say Crisis can be troop choices, only in a Farsight Enclaves list in which case they have to buy the bonding Knife ritual which adds extra cost and so skews it even more in favour of the jetbikes).
So why is a troop choice more powerful in every sense than an elite choice in what is meant to be the shootiest army in the game?
The man has a point. Eldar Jetbikes are just too darn cheap to not be considered broken.
People would bitch pretty hard if for 13 pts more all tactical marines got relentless, heavy bolters, 12" moves, and could ignore terrain, and that STILL wouldn't be as bad as scatbikes.
I will back this too. I would rather face those 13 point HB relentless Marines than Eldar Scatspam.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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Dman137 wrote: It's been clearly noted that people hate on eldar a lot but yet lists like the one that won the NOVAGT people seem to be fine with. Clearly theres a issue here.
People aren't ok with it really, I've actively refused to play a game against a very similar list in real life (with BA's an White Scars instead of a Conclave and Dark Angels). It's an egregious abuse of the allies/Battle-Brothers rules that people very much do have a problem with, and a fluff abortion to boot.
However, it does take three different armies to achieve this level of ridiculousness, these deathstars don't work at the level they need when you're only taking units from one army. Meanwhile, Eldar can match that without needing allies shennanigans.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Dman137 wrote: It's been clearly noted that people hate on eldar a lot but yet lists like the one that won the NOVAGT people seem to be fine with. Clearly theres a issue here.
People aren't ok with it really, I've actively refused to play a game against a very similar list in real life (with BA's an White Scars instead of a Conclave and Dark Angels). It's an egregious abuse of the allies/Battle-Brothers rules that people very much do have a problem with, and a fluff abortion to boot.
However, it does take three different armies to achieve this level of ridiculousness, these deathstars don't work at the level they need when you're only taking units from one army. Meanwhile, Eldar can match that without needing allies shennanigans.
Yet again, Vaktathi nails it.
Dman, give up. Eldar are broken. They are single-handedly the most broken standalone codex in the game currently. Does allowing allies to that extent give other armies a way to fight back? Yes. Does that mean we should have that in the game? No. Especially when those ally shenanigans only benefit, well, the Imperium armies.
Chalk it up to "40k is a terribly designed game" and be done with it.
I think dmans issue is that he has a bruised ego and cant fathom the concept that his win record can be chalked up more to the army hes playing than the way hes playing. Gotta be the best pokemon master and all that jazz, yknow?
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
Is dperson serious? Does he really think that list is OP? Eyes closed beaten. Now those cheesy eldar? I think they should either be nerfed HARD!( like.. can hit the wide side of a barn hard) or just get rid of the eldar codex altogether. It would honestly clear out 40k of those waac players.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think dmans issue is that he has a bruised ego and cant fathom the concept that his win record can be chalked up more to the army hes playing than the way hes playing. Gotta be the best pokemon master and all that jazz, yknow?
I don't see how anyone can play 40k with the mindset where they want to win but so it through skill. 40k has become less and less about skill, and more about how big your....uhh.... pocketbook is.
Dman137 wrote: Unit is 1391pts and is; Wolf lord w/TWSSTH with 2 wolves 3 iron priests in TWs with 4 cyberwolves each. 6 ravenwing knight command with 1 apothecary Chaplain on bike 3 level 2 librarians on bikes
28 models.
This is pretty much the whole army, the rest was scouts
Heresy! Wolves working with dark angels?!
The list makes me want to vomit too...
But I will say Eldar have alot of "crap" that makes them not fun to play againest ( Wraithguard with D flamers for one)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/17 17:55:47
First rule of Avatars in a room is: you never call the mods. Second rule of Avatars in a room is: you never call the mods. -Tyler Durden
Pain4Pleasure wrote: Is dperson serious? Does he really think that list is OP? Eyes closed beaten. Now those cheesy eldar? I think they should either be nerfed HARD!( like.. can hit the wide side of a barn hard) or just get rid of the eldar codex altogether. It would honestly clear out 40k of those waac players.
Well....no.
We'd still have Blood Angels/Skitarii taxi service, Skyhammer and Gladius, Grav in general, ext....
WAAC players would gravitate to the next best thing. Right now, it just happens to be Eldar.
Let's clear something up because clearly a lot of people are misunderstanding something, I have never once said that eldar aren't OP, or have I ever said that things shouldn't change, all I've said was play the game as is (because every codex is probubly going to get the eldar treatment) this post is meant to point out that NOT only eldar need to be fixed, there are a lot of other things in 40k that need fixing, but with the way books are coming out its only a matter of time till everyone's codex is just as OP, wait until tau drop 100% there going to cranked to 11
Dman137 wrote: Let's clear something up because clearly a lot of people are misunderstanding something, I have never once said that eldar aren't OP, or have I ever said that things shouldn't change, all I've said was play the game as is (because every codex is probubly going to get the eldar treatment) this post is meant to point out that NOT only eldar need to be fixed, there are a lot of other things in 40k that need fixing, but with the way books are coming out its only a matter of time till everyone's codex is just as OP, wait until tau drop 100% there going to cranked to 11
You agree that Eldar are OP?
When did this happen?
Well now that you have made this consensus I can go ahead and tell you that people have ALREADY been aware of the brokenness of the ally matrix and the IoM battle brother bologna.
We are WELL aware of the broken combos that can come around from the MtG style nitpicking and min-maxing that have come from it.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
Since Craftworlds dropped, we have seen 4 other codecies:
Dark Angels
Space Marines
Cult Mechanicus
Imperial Knights
None of those even come close to touching Eldar. Imperial Knights is the only possible exception, and thats an army composed of goddamned LORDS OF WAR.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
Dman137 wrote: Let's clear something up because clearly a lot of people are misunderstanding something, I have never once said that eldar aren't OP, or have I ever said that things shouldn't change, all I've said was play the game as is (because every codex is probubly going to get the eldar treatment) this post is meant to point out that NOT only eldar need to be fixed, there are a lot of other things in 40k that need fixing, but with the way books are coming out its only a matter of time till everyone's codex is just as OP, wait until tau drop 100% there going to cranked to 11
Yeah....
No....
I don't doubt Tau will be overdone, because GW. But you're sitting here complaining that people can't say anything about Eldar, because other armies are OP. The only other things that stand close to Eldar (in a non-house ruled environment) are cheese filled biscuits consisting of Admech War Convocations, Imperial Knights, Gladius/Skyhammer, and Daemons with 2++ rerollable saves. Yes, because that sounds balanced, and playable for all the other armies out there.
chaos0xomega wrote: Since Craftworlds dropped, we have seen 4 other codecies:
Dark Angels
Space Marines
Cult Mechanicus
Imperial Knights
None of those even come close to touching Eldar. Imperial Knights is the only possible exception, and thats an army composed of goddamned LORDS OF WAR.
So dark angles with re-roll cover saves is balanced.?
Space marines with free transports is balanced.?
Imperial knights in 40k balanced.?
Cult mech has enough good gak but I'll agree it's not as powerful as others
chaos0xomega wrote: Since Craftworlds dropped, we have seen 4 other codecies:
Dark Angels Space Marines Cult Mechanicus Imperial Knights
None of those even come close to touching Eldar. Imperial Knights is the only possible exception, and thats an army composed of goddamned LORDS OF WAR.
So dark angles with re-roll cover saves is balanced.? Space marines with free transports is balanced.? Imperial knights in 40k balanced.? Cult mech has enough good gak but I'll agree it's not as powerful as others
Cult mech on it's own, yes. Their formations and ally options, no. Free Transports is dumb, but at worst they could get free Razorbacks and some Drop pods. Rerolling a cover save is nothing because it requires them to jink, and it's a cover save. CC and a ton of stuff in game easily ignore cover. Imperial Knights have never been balanced, but gotta sell models.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/09/17 19:00:04
You can argue that free transports for SM is balanced as its so many damn points that you can't use it effectively in normal competitve levels.
Any reroll 2+ is not balanced.
Having one or (maybe) 2 IK is fine its when you have more than that that it became rock-paper-scissors fest.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
Dman137 wrote:Let's clear something up because clearly a lot of people are misunderstanding something, I have never once said that eldar aren't OP, or have I ever said that things shouldn't change, all I've said was play the game as is (because every codex is probubly going to get the eldar treatment) this post is meant to point out that NOT only eldar need to be fixed, there are a lot of other things in 40k that need fixing, but with the way books are coming out its only a matter of time till everyone's codex is just as OP, wait until tau drop 100% there going to cranked to 11
chaos0xomega wrote: Since Craftworlds dropped, we have seen 4 other codecies:
Dark Angels
Space Marines
Cult Mechanicus
Imperial Knights
None of those even come close to touching Eldar. Imperial Knights is the only possible exception, and thats an army composed of goddamned LORDS OF WAR.
So dark angles with re-roll cover saves is balanced.?
Space marines with free transports is balanced.?
Imperial knights in 40k balanced.?
Cult mech has enough good gak but I'll agree it's not as powerful as others
Cult mech on it's own, yes. Their formations and ally options, no.
Free Transports is dumb, but at worst they could get free Razorbacks and some Drop pods.
Rerolling a cover save is nothing because it requires them to jink, and it's a cover save. CC and a ton of stuff in game easily ignore cover.
Imperial Knights have never been balanced, but gotta sell models.
Belive it or not, I think that the War Convocation as a stand-alone is balanced. If forces a lot of otherwise sub-optimal choices on the army, and some of those relics and upgrades aren't worth being free.
Free Transports wins tournaments, and is probably the most powerful single gimmick in the game.
If you have trouble ignoring a cover save, I don't know what to tell you.
Imperial Knights are only really annoying if taken in multiples. Standing alone, they're fine. Their firepower is compensated by their lack of durability for a superheavy.
No, Eldar do not have a monopoly on cheese. But they are the most concentrated and refined, and therefore other armies have to mix their cheeses to approach or beat them, and not every army has as strong as texture. This metaphor is making me hungry...
Martel732 wrote: The scatterbike is the single most efficient model in the game. Hands down, bar none.
IMO Tomb Blades are better, as they can hurt everything,potentially with Ignore Cover and are way more durable. Their only flaw is that you can't spam them in a decurion/CAD like you can with Windriders.
Martel732 wrote: The scatterbike is the single most efficient model in the game. Hands down, bar none.
IMO Tomb Blades are better, as they can hurt everything,potentially with Ignore Cover and are way more durable. Their only flaw is that you can't spam them in a decurion/CAD like you can with Windriders.
2nd most efficient, then? With the first being in C: Necrons?
Martel732 wrote: The scatterbike is the single most efficient model in the game. Hands down, bar none.
IMO Tomb Blades are better, as they can hurt everything,potentially with Ignore Cover and are way more durable. Their only flaw is that you can't spam them in a decurion/CAD like you can with Windriders.
Not to familiar with Necrons but are they as cheap? long ranged? Fast? and you said they can't be spammed like SCAT bikes so theres that. My biggest pet peeve about Scat bikes is that they should be an elite choice, non spammable. If you could field 1 unit of up to 5 of those things with scat lasers and you increased the cost by about 10 points a model it wouldn't be bad at all and would be in line with most other stuff.
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Martel732 wrote: The scatterbike is the single most efficient model in the game. Hands down, bar none.
IMO Tomb Blades are better, as they can hurt everything,potentially with Ignore Cover and are way more durable. Their only flaw is that you can't spam them in a decurion/CAD like you can with Windriders.
2nd most efficient, then? With the first being in C: Necrons?
I'd still say Windriders are more efficient. Tomb Blades can't be spammed in any amount like Scatterbikes, and can never have objective secured, can't assault move, and aren't as fast. Sure, they're tougher, but still. Scatterbikes have a lot more going for them as far as overall usage.
Could make a case for 3rd behind Wraiths but really Wraiths only shine when taken in a Canoptek Harvest so you need a 120 point tax and even then you have to conga line them back to the Spyder for RP.
Martel732 wrote: The scatterbike is the single most efficient model in the game. Hands down, bar none.
IMO Tomb Blades are better, as they can hurt everything,potentially with Ignore Cover and are way more durable. Their only flaw is that you can't spam them in a decurion/CAD like you can with Windriders.
The fact that you can't spam them means you have to purchase more units to run them which means that they are less efficient on an army-wide level than windriders are.
So yes Scatbikes are still the most efficient unit in the game.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
Martel732 wrote: The scatterbike is the single most efficient model in the game. Hands down, bar none.
IMO Tomb Blades are better, as they can hurt everything,potentially with Ignore Cover and are way more durable. Their only flaw is that you can't spam them in a decurion/CAD like you can with Windriders.
Not to familiar with Necrons but are they as cheap? long ranged? Fast? and you said they can't be spammed like SCAT bikes so theres that. My biggest pet peeve about Scat bikes is that they should be an elite choice, non spammable. If you could field 1 unit of up to 5 of those things with scat lasers and you increased the cost by about 10 points a model it wouldn't be bad at all and would be in line with most other stuff.
20 points gets you a 24" (36 inch with movement) Rapid Fire S5 Ap4 TL Ignore Cover shot. 2 points more gets you a 3+ armour save with a (usually) 4+++ on a T5 platform. Another 2 points changes the Gauss into a S6 Ap5 small blast. Move through Cover and Relentless are just icing on the cake.
I agree about Windriders being something other than Troops. No other army I know allows for 12" movement troops outside of transports, the closest I can think off is Hormagaunts which can move a maximum of 15" (move ^ and roll 6 for run move) but that's offset by a T-shirt save and a really bad IB table.
Martel732 wrote: The scatterbike is the single most efficient model in the game. Hands down, bar none.
IMO Tomb Blades are better, as they can hurt everything,potentially with Ignore Cover and are way more durable. Their only flaw is that you can't spam them in a decurion/CAD like you can with Windriders.
Not to familiar with Necrons but are they as cheap? long ranged? Fast? and you said they can't be spammed like SCAT bikes so theres that. My biggest pet peeve about Scat bikes is that they should be an elite choice, non spammable. If you could field 1 unit of up to 5 of those things with scat lasers and you increased the cost by about 10 points a model it wouldn't be bad at all and would be in line with most other stuff.
20 points gets you a 24" (36 inch with movement) Rapid Fire S5 Ap4 TL Ignore Cover shot. 2 points more gets you a 3+ armour save with a (usually) 4+++ on a T5 platform. Another 2 points changes the Gauss into a S6 Ap5 small blast. Move through Cover and Relentless are just icing on the cake.
I agree about Windriders being something other than Troops. No other army I know allows for 12" movement troops outside of transports, the closest I can think off is Hormagaunts which can move a maximum of 15" (move ^ and roll 6 for run move) but that's offset by a T-shirt save and a really bad IB table.
Well to be fair, Space Marine Bikes do it too.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
Martel732 wrote: The scatterbike is the single most efficient model in the game. Hands down, bar none.
IMO Tomb Blades are better, as they can hurt everything,potentially with Ignore Cover and are way more durable. Their only flaw is that you can't spam them in a decurion/CAD like you can with Windriders.
Not to familiar with Necrons but are they as cheap? long ranged? Fast? and you said they can't be spammed like SCAT bikes so theres that. My biggest pet peeve about Scat bikes is that they should be an elite choice, non spammable. If you could field 1 unit of up to 5 of those things with scat lasers and you increased the cost by about 10 points a model it wouldn't be bad at all and would be in line with most other stuff.
20 points gets you a 24" (36 inch with movement) Rapid Fire S5 Ap4 TL Ignore Cover shot. 2 points more gets you a 3+ armour save with a (usually) 4+++ on a T5 platform. Another 2 points changes the Gauss into a S6 Ap5 small blast. Move through Cover and Relentless are just icing on the cake.
I agree about Windriders being something other than Troops. No other army I know allows for 12" movement troops outside of transports, the closest I can think off is Hormagaunts which can move a maximum of 15" (move ^ and roll 6 for run move) but that's offset by a T-shirt save and a really bad IB table.
Now, I will say that is broken, it should realistically be about 10points more per model. but again its not more efficient then Scatbikes because you can't spam them. 1 unit of those is great but I can focus fire it or do something to make it less scary, but 5 units of scat bikes killing my Green tide by turn 2.....
I come in peace. I didn't bring artillery. But I'm pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you mess with me, I'll kill you all
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