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It is weird that they didn't list it in the rules that come from being a GC though.

 ImAGeek wrote:
It is weird that they didn't list it in the rules that come from being a GC though.

It is generic Forge World stupidity. Like listing the Ignores Cover special rule as 'No Cover Saves' - being a Gargantuan Creature is not a special rule, so that entry actually makes no sense whatsoever. The Supremacy Armor's "special rule" does nothing, as it is not a special rule at all. Everything else is covered with its unit type.

A slightly more serious mistake is that the Supremacy Armor lacks the usual Tau basic stuff: Supporting Fire, a Blacksun Filter, and a Multi-Tracker. Good job, Forge World !

 AtoMaki wrote:
A slightly more serious mistake is that the Supremacy Armor lacks the usual Tau basic stuff: a Blacksun Filter

I thought that was pretty funny.

Six BS1 Lascannons and one BS1 D-blast that you can usually save isn't nearly so scary.

I guess they were trying to save points!

This is why I recommend a night raid with Avengers :p

Ah. So GC is fnp by default. Ok. That makes it a bit tougher then. Wich it should be. If your spending 600pts on it - would suck big time to have it alphad off the table turn 1.

Would be interesting to see how it works best. With other large suits to draw Fire away, or a bunch of smaller stuff to bubble wrap.

In my exp more larger threats would be better - otherwise everyone just focus on it and it goes away without much return argument. But that's for anything big by itself.

I'll leave that at that tho. I like the model and the rules and think it's a solid add for the tau.

When breaking it down it really is not as scary as people make it out to be, strong? Most definitely but its not "OP" especially when compared to other things in the game, in particular, from the Imperial Armies. For example:

-Unlike Imperial Knights (who Tau struggle with right now) who can take several in a single list you can only ever have x1 of these guys unless you play unbound and at that point its out the window for both armies involved. Multiple Knights will still pose a problem to both this and Tau armies unless the new Codex makes some more changes to give us a better chance.

-Grav will WRECK this thing and Imperial armies nowadays in the competitive scene are loaded to the teeth with it. Anyone here had to face x3 squads of Grav Kataphrons in Drop Pods? Its not pretty for anything, especially when BS is boosted.

-Skyhammer Assault Formation, I don't think I need to break down how this could wreck this thing.

-The insanity that is the Gladius Formation giving free transports to every space marine squad in the army.

Now before I am accused of being biased I would like you to know that these were all discussed by Imperial players and myself at my FLGS yesterday when the rules came out. There are many counters to it from the Imperial side of things (I am not sure about the xenos since I don't play any of the others) but most importantly to freak out and complain and moan before anyone has played SEVERAL games against it is silly, premature and immature. This thing is just as bad as what several armies currently can put out.

die toten hosen wrote:

 Tyran wrote:

 Ferros wrote:
I wonder how much longer people will keep calling Necrons OP?
Absolutely no psychic phase and no real psychic defenses, and now every additional army coming out not only gets S or close to (As opposed to our 1/6 chance on one model) but it completely nullifies what makes them competitive at all.

Really hope they change either S or give Necrons a bit heavier firepower / some kind of psychic phase shenanigans if this is the direction they're going.

(Note: Definitely don't mean to whine, particularly as long as CSM and IG and Tyranids don't have a new codex yet, just reflecting on how this trend is really slamming Necrons while we're still called OP ad infinitium)

Necrons are in the weird position of being OP in casual games but UP in competitive games.

Oh you guys. Im gonna refrain from breaking any of Dakka's rules about being rude and just let you both figure out why you are wrong on this one.

Why you don't simply tell us?

 gmaleron wrote:

Now before I am accused of being biased I would like you to know that these were all discussed by Imperial players and myself at my FLGS yesterday when the rules came out. There are many counters to it from the Imperial side of things (I am not sure about the xenos since I don't play any of the others) but most importantly to freak out and complain and moan before anyone has played SEVERAL games against it is silly, premature and immature. This thing is just as bad as what several armies currently can put out.

Yep. I'd ask my friends if I they want to play one game against it to see how it goes. Just flat out saying "NO!" isn't a proper behavior. Heck, I'd even play against Wraithknights just to see if they're a really nuisance.

600 points of Grav Destroyers is just under 66 grav shots at 30", if you get that close.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
if you get that close.

That seems to be the biggest problem with this, and maybe Tau in general.

Its tough to get close because you're wading right into their guns. Or you are deepstriking and getting shot by Interceptors.

The issue I see with it is the drastic swing in efficiency between gargantuan creatures. This (400+ points too cheap) and the wraithknight (100 points too cheap) are obscenely better then the tyranid gargantuans (90 points too expensive) and Anggrath the unbound (almost 400 points too expensive)

I've figured out a survivability ratio that works out mathematically for vehicles and monsters and allows me to see how much the weapons tie into cost. The guns on the new suit are beyond what a stompa can bring to the table by a wide margin, and the new suit has about 115 points more survivability as well.

All superheavies should be against one another, so when doing the math I look at one nobody complains about being broken (baneblade chassis, imperial knights, stompa, and the heirodules) and used them as a baseline.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
This (400+ points too cheap).

You're on crack if you think that this new Tau supremacy suit is worth a thousand points

Not a thousand points, but something like 800 with Toughness 8, Supporting Fire, a Blacksun Filter and a Multi-Tracker. This would actually look fair and balanced in my opinion.

It is way too soon to make assumptions on how good it is when literally no one has played with the thing enough to gauge its true strength on the table top. Also just because they have dropped the ball on other gargantuan creatures doesn't mean we have to bring the nerf bat to this thing so drastically.

It's undercosted, but I don't believe it's 400pts undercosted.

Honestly, is it just me or does the firepower not look too bad for 600 points? It's essentially 6 lascannons and a big plate of death for 600 points, or 12 S7 shots and a big plate of death for 600 points (or a metric ton of melta shots that aren't going to hit anything because lol 12" range). Surely the Tau could already do a lot of nasty shooting for 600 points?

It may be a single strD shot, but that single shot is a 7" circle that with the current rules has a 1/6 chance of deleting 2/3 of an adamantium lance formation of imperial knights. That plus the possibility of ignores cover and this weapon system means death for almost every army out there.

Yes, grav guns destroy it, but grav guns are an escalating potency weapon with no real upper limit. That's like saying "strength D can kill it" as a way of proving its weakness. The issue is then the fact that the suit actually stops strength D from killing it outright.

A voidshields generator plus this suit Trump's all the grav in the world, what do you do then? Not even 700 points and it has invalidated your entire army and will be deleting whole sections of the battlefield a turn.

For some reason forgeworld gives huge range bonuses to super heavy class weapons, but only charges some of their units for it. That's why this thing looks OK compared to imperial titans. The only weapon costed appropriately of a warhound is the Vulcan mega bolter. Every thing else is low balled by at least 100 points if you balance them against the volcano cannon.

Its not its shooting alone that is a big deal, its that its also on an insanely hard to kill platform.

Toughness 9, 10 wounds, 2+ armor, 4+ invuln(5+ in melee), and FnP.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its not its shooting alone that is a big deal, its that its also on an insanely hard to kill platform.

Toughness 9, 10 wounds, 2+ armor, 4+ invuln(5+ in melee), and FnP.

Don't forget the halving of "6" rolls on the destroyer weapon table.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its not its shooting alone that is a big deal, its that its also on an insanely hard to kill platform.

Toughness 9, 10 wounds, 2+ armor, 4+ invuln(5+ in melee), and FnP.

Don't forget the halving of "6" rolls on the destroyer weapon table.

This is actually a pretty bad thing as it burns out the shield for a whole turn.

Yeah, and I think it will not cancel out other rolls of a 6 that happen simultaneously. and you lose the 4+ against any other attacks.

So if it gets hit with 4 Destroyer shots and 1 rolls a 6 it doesn't get the 4+ against any of them.

 AtoMaki wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its not its shooting alone that is a big deal, its that its also on an insanely hard to kill platform.

Toughness 9, 10 wounds, 2+ armor, 4+ invuln(5+ in melee), and FnP.

Don't forget the halving of "6" rolls on the destroyer weapon table.

This is actually a pretty bad thing as it burns out the shield for a whole turn.

It is a very good thing, otherwise a roll of 6 would have a very good chance of killing it. 6+D6 is 9.5 wounds in average.

Its still taking a minimum of 2, and an average of 3, wounds.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its still taking a minimum of 2, and an average of 3, wounds.

It is taking an average of 5 wounds.

I agree that the real problem is the survivability of the thing. The firepower is decent, but since it will be shooting almost every turn that really increases the expected returns on your point investment.

 Tyran wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Its still taking a minimum of 2, and an average of 3, wounds.

It is taking an average of 5 wounds.

Herpaderp, divided it twice for some reason.

Yeah, minimum of 4 wounds, average of 5.

Yeah, and I think it will not cancel out other rolls of a 6 that happen simultaneously. and you lose the 4+ against any other attacks.

So if it gets hit with 4 Destroyer shots and 1 rolls a 6 it doesn't get the 4+ against any of them.

Uhh, I believe you're mistaken here. There's precedent here with the Dark Eldar 2++ armour, whatever that's called. When shooting at that thing, you roll your saves one at a time. The same should apply to the T'aunar.

You roll the destroyer hits one at a time. All of the ones before the 6 get saves, all of the ones after don't.

Also, unless the destroyer weapon rolls multiple sixes this being a gargantuan creature means it would get a cover save versus any other hits by being at least partially in area terrain.

Too much survivability and ranged firepower for 600 points, way too much.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Also, unless the destroyer weapon rolls multiple sixes this being a gargantuan creature means it would get a cover save versus any other hits by being at least partially in area terrain.

Too much survivability and ranged firepower for 600 points, way too much.

Unless its getting shrouded or stealth from something it already has its 4++ against shooting

 CrownAxe wrote:

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Also, unless the destroyer weapon rolls multiple sixes this being a gargantuan creature means it would get a cover save versus any other hits by being at least partially in area terrain.

Too much survivability and ranged firepower for 600 points, way too much.

Unless its getting shrouded or stealth from something it already has its 4++ against shooting

He means as a back up in case of losing the shield.