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I've been working on an armored company list. When I first began running some test lists, I was planning to use Leman Russes, but as time went on, I realized that Russes I would be using had two plausible roles:

- Kill tanks
- Kill hordes

As I've been refining the lists, however, I've found that Russes appear to be inferior to different (and cheaper) combinations of plasma cannon Sentinels, Devil Dogs, and Wyverns. As it stands now, my army lists from 750 to 2000 points will not include a single Leman Russ, and will instead be a ton of AV12 vehicles (and vets, obv)

So why use Leman Russes? I get that they're vastly harder to kill than any Chimera-based weapon platform, but they're also vastly more expensive and much more obvious targets. It seems like the points sink for a squadron of Leman Russes would be better spent on a superheavy or a handful of lighter armor.

Any LR lovers out there to explain for me?

Well, as you said, the main benefit to a Russ is their incredible durability, your opponent has to put a lot of firepower into them to kill them. And if your opponent is firing at your Russ, then they aren't firing at your oh so squishy veterans and their metal boxes. Their other big draw for me is the horrific amount of firepower they can put out if kitted out properly. Yes they're expensive, but to me their durability, versatility make them well worth it.

Demolisher cannon.

Pask.

War Kitten wrote:Well, as you said, the main benefit to a Russ is their incredible durability, your opponent has to put a lot of firepower into them to kill them. And if your opponent is firing at your Russ, then they aren't firing at your oh so squishy veterans and their metal boxes. Their other big draw for me is the horrific amount of firepower they can put out if kitted out properly. Yes they're expensive, but to me their durability, versatility make them well worth it.

I can't deny the firepower, but to me it keeps coming back to the cost. Maybe it's just my meta, but when I look at a trio of LR on the table, I see a massive points sink that's waiting to get wrecked in one turn with alpha striking melta or D weapons. Obviously they're impervious to 95% of infantry, but plop a Sternguard drop pod down nearby and they're toast. The way I mitigate this is with diffuse cheap threats ("do I kill the wyverns or take on the sentinel squadron?")

vipoid wrote:Pask.

He's a killing machine, but as I said above, it's SO damn pricey.

ScratchDash wrote:

vipoid wrote:Pask.

He's a killing machine, but as I said above, it's SO damn pricey.

Agreed, but he's also the most durable HQ IG get (with the possible exception of Yarrick), and I'm not sure anything in the IG army can match a BS4 20-shot S5 Rending gun with preferred enemy that rerolls failed armour-penetration rolls. Also, you can attach an executioner to him for 5 plasma cannon shots that also benefit from preferred enemy.

Is it too expensive? Entirely possible. But then, I can't think of much in the IG book that *isn't* too expensive for what it does.

Actually the Executioner is one of the best and hardest to kill MEQ/TEQ killers in the game if given some support through psychic powers or preferred enemy through warlord traits or the Steel Host. All you need to be able to do is reroll those 1s for gets hot and the tank is good.

The main thing that the Russ has over things like sentinels and hellhounds is AV14 and sponson weapons. This is why I often don't use the ordnance variants.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 vipoid wrote:

ScratchDash wrote:

vipoid wrote:Pask.

He's a killing machine, but as I said above, it's SO damn pricey.

Is it too expensive? Entirely possible. But then, I can't think of much in the IG book that *isn't* too expensive for what it does.

Probably the Wyvern. It made all other artillery choices in the dex into non-choices by being so undercosted.

 vipoid wrote:

ScratchDash wrote:

vipoid wrote:Pask.

He's a killing machine, but as I said above, it's SO damn pricey.

Agreed, but he's also the most durable HQ IG get (with the possible exception of Yarrick), and I'm not sure anything in the IG army can match a BS4 20-shot S5 Rending gun with preferred enemy that rerolls failed armour-penetration rolls. Also, you can attach an executioner to him for 5 plasma cannon shots that also benefit from preferred enemy.

Is it too expensive? Entirely possible. But then, I can't think of much in the IG book that *isn't* too expensive for what it does.

Honestly giving a Leman Russ Pask can make that Leman Russ more effective than multiple of those Russes. In addition, the benefit that an executioner gets from being in his squadron makes it worth the price of admission to me.

But otherwise, I agree that plain Leman Russes are too expensive and too unreliable.

ScratchDash wrote:

War Kitten wrote:Well, as you said, the main benefit to a Russ is their incredible durability, your opponent has to put a lot of firepower into them to kill them. And if your opponent is firing at your Russ, then they aren't firing at your oh so squishy veterans and their metal boxes. Their other big draw for me is the horrific amount of firepower they can put out if kitted out properly. Yes they're expensive, but to me their durability, versatility make them well worth it.

I can't deny the firepower, but to me it keeps coming back to the cost. Maybe it's just my meta, but when I look at a trio of LR on the table, I see a massive points sink that's waiting to get wrecked in one turn with alpha striking melta or D weapons. Obviously they're impervious to 95% of infantry, but plop a Sternguard drop pod down nearby and they're toast. The way I mitigate this is with diffuse cheap threats ("do I kill the wyverns or take on the sentinel squadron?")

vipoid wrote:Pask.

He's a killing machine, but as I said above, it's SO damn pricey.

You can mitigate that threat using bubblewrap generally. Also, if you are facing heavy Admech drop grav spam or something like that (Cent Star in a pod is another example) just reserve Pask. The Pask Punisher doesn't mind coming on T2 because he probably isn't shooting all that much T1 anyway.

40k isn't Infinity - you know what your opponent is using. Just ask if they have any grav or melta in pods, and depending on how much there is, make your decision.


That said, the only Russes I'll run are the Pask Punisher with an Executioner buddy, the Demolisher, the Eradicator and the Exterminator. Regular Russes are garbage, and Demolishers are really just more expensive AV14 Vindicators. My only auto-include is the Pask Punisher and the Executioner.

 vipoid wrote:
Pask.

Is almost never worth it.

I've never had a game where he's gotten in range with his punisher before being shot off the table.

Russes really don't work in 40k as it is. They do not have the firepower per points to be worth using as a core force, and their better guns are shorter ranged, opening them up to being grenaded to death.

They'd work if:

-they have Lumbering Behemoth back, allowing them to fire Ordnance without the snapshot penalty
-they become about 10-20 points cheaper on average
-they gain a Sqn bonus wherein each model in a squadron can operate as an individual unit (if they're bought in threes)

Giving them BS4 as standard would improve them quite a bit (fluff wise they have targeting systems so it makes sense).

As would more Hullpoints. I mean, the Hullpoints system is awful but if we must use it we need more than just 3.

 Signet-Powers wrote:
Giving them BS4 as standard would improve them quite a bit (fluff wise they have targeting systems so it makes sense).

As would more Hullpoints. I mean, the Hullpoints system is awful but if we must use it we need more than just 3.

Tru dat.

The amount of anti-armour power of most armies has risen quite considerably since HP's were added (excluding in the IG...), even in the Av13-14 range.

 Selym wrote:

 Signet-Powers wrote:
Giving them BS4 as standard would improve them quite a bit (fluff wise they have targeting systems so it makes sense).

As would more Hullpoints. I mean, the Hullpoints system is awful but if we must use it we need more than just 3.

Tru dat.

The amount of anti-armour power of most armies has risen quite considerably since HP's were added (excluding in the IG...), even in the Av13-14 range.

That or at least give the option for veteran tank crews that you pay for per tank, that way for single shot weapons like the vanquisher you can get the extra boost without relying on an HQ choice. Leman Russes definitely deserve an extra HP, if only to show their rugged resilience over other battle tanks beyond their front and side AV.

 Selym wrote:
Russes really don't work in 40k as it is.

Leman Russes work great in an Imperial Guard army. Just ignore the "Astra Militarum" nonsense entirely.

Most Leman Russes are fragile, undergunned and overcosted. The 40K meta has left them behind with their lack of any beneficial special rules comparable to what other codices get. Executioners and Eradicators aren't that bad though. Eradicators remove rerollable 2+ cover saves and have a good strength. Executioners brutalize heavy infantry. The others are just trash, though. They need serious buffing to remain competitive.

 Signet-Powers wrote:
Giving them BS4 as standard would improve them quite a bit (fluff wise they have targeting systems so it makes sense).

As would more Hullpoints. I mean, the Hullpoints system is awful but if we must use it we need more than just 3.

Yeah, Ork Trukks are 3 HP and our Battlewagons are 4 which is great considering 3 out of 4 of my BW's are just slightly modified LR's.

What if leman russes were allowed to have multiple shell types. Say str 8 ap 3 large blast, and a str 10 ap 2 single shot tank killer rounds option? Maybe also a str 4 ap 4 or 5 large blast ignores cover. Versatility could easily save em.

 Orock wrote:
What if leman russes were allowed to have multiple shell types. Say str 8 ap 3 large blast, and a str 10 ap 2 single shot tank killer rounds option? Maybe also a str 4 ap 4 or 5 large blast ignores cover. Versatility could easily save em.

Sternguard Russ would be awesome but maybe they're already like that with the hull lascannons and sponsons? Obviously not as good but for the price?

You mean, pay +10 pts for per alternate shell type, like Skyfire ML rounds? I'm not sure how that helps if it makes the Russ more expensive.

 Orock wrote:
What if leman russes were allowed to have multiple shell types. Say str 8 ap 3 large blast, and a str 10 ap 2 single shot tank killer rounds option? Maybe also a str 4 ap 4 or 5 large blast ignores cover. Versatility could easily save em.

And would destroy the fluff.

Vanquishers are the variant that kills hard targets, Battlecannons kill the soft targets, and everything else is specialized.

Vanq - Sniper tank
LRBT - Direct-fire artillery with support weapons
Demolisher - Bunker-buster
Executioner - Heavy Infantry killer
Exterminator - Armour-puncher, MC hunter
Eradicator - Infantry Massacre-er
Conqueror - "Mini LRBT"
Annihilator - "We forgot to bring HWT's"

"And would destroy the fluff. "

A non-casualty for sure. Tabletop >> fluff.

Martel732 wrote:
"And would destroy the fluff. "

A non-casualty for sure. Tabletop >> fluff.

Says the guy who is unhappy about allied C:SM, because "They're not BA".

Cynical much?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd rather have a mid-tier fluffy army than a high-tier fluff-breaker.

Honestly the only Russ I feel necessary is an MC killer and perhaps anti TEQ/MEQ. Wyverns perform the anti-infantry roll better than Eradicators and LRBTs, and either MechVets or Blobs w/ Orders outperform Vanquishers at AV duties. A Pask squadron with a couple Executioners fulfills this handily with the split-fire order. A case could be made for Exterminators, but autocannons exist on sentinels and in blobs, and Chimeras carry multilasers which fulfill similar roles. I'm always leery of plasma weaponry on platforms without insurance against Gets Hot. 3x Armored Sentinels with plasma clock in at 150pts for 3 plasma shots and 6HP at AV12/10/10, 1x Executioner clocks in 155pts for 3 plasma shots and 3HP at AV14/13/10 and brings along a heavy bolter for chuckles. Latter opens up options for two more plasma shots and lascannon for more chuckles. Better value, imo, even without the Pask part of the equation.

 Selym wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"And would destroy the fluff. "

A non-casualty for sure. Tabletop >> fluff.

Says the guy who is unhappy about allied C:SM, because "They're not BA".

Cynical much?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd rather have a mid-tier fluffy army than a high-tier fluff-breaker.

Not quite right. The point is that I shouldn't have to ally to be good. Neither BA nor IG are mid-tier though. They are both scrapping for the bottom with DE and CSM.

Which, while true, is no reason to abandon perfectly arbitrary and unreasonable fluff.

I'm here for the arbitrary and unreasonable fluff.

 Selym wrote:
Which, while true, is no reason to abandon perfectly arbitrary and unreasonable fluff.

I'm here for the arbitrary and unreasonable fluff.

Fluff is never an excuse to make someone's hundreds or even thousands of dollars of models not fun to play with, though. And the IG are on the bubble for sure.

Leman Russ need lumbering behemoth back at a minimum. They need an ignore cover AP 3 shell for sure given how 7th is shaping up. Then they can fend off scatterbikes and DA bikers.

You can make them fun and fluffy:

-Add durability to Russes
-Give them target-specific bonuses

Russes need offense, not defense.

Martel732 wrote:
Russes need offense, not defense.

They need both. They're giant lumbering landships that are supposed to do to the battlefield what this did to WW1 trenches:




Wish I could find the whole thing though...

AV 14 front and AV 13 sides are still pretty serious. Well, there's grav and D-weapons, but there is no amount of AV that helps there.