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 judgedoug wrote:
they are evocative of a badass Saturday morning cartoon and for some reason that strikes some chord that makes me want them, lots and lots of them.

It's funny . . . I really like the aesthetic of Mantic's sci-fi figures too, with some exceptions. I definitely prefer them to GW's heroic style, although some of Mantic's stuff does emulate that. (Mantic has multiple styles right now, sometimes even within the same faction, not a unified house style.) But if Mantic's figures reminded me of a "badass Saturday morning cartoon," I probably wouldn't like them. That's not a criticism, just interesting that we both like the look but see it differently.

 judgedoug wrote:
I could honestly care less about the Warpath rules.

Weird Al might compel me to correct your grammar there, but I agree with the sentiment. I'm basically in this for Deadzone stuff, which in a way makes buying in easier. All the brouhaha over how good the Warpath / FF rules will be, or even what they will be, doesn't worry me.

 judgedoug wrote:
And yes, I agree about any 28mm sci-fi plastics. I can't stand 40k aesthetics any longer, honestly.

If there were a viable sci-fi alternative out there of equal quality, depth, and breadth but a less cartoony / Gothic vibe, I might drop GW entirely. As it is, I still check in to see what useful bits I can pull from the new sets. That requires a lot of filtering - too many bits with skulls all over, too many huge powerfists, too many chunky armor legs, and frankly, for the industry leader, a surprising amount of genuinely poor sculpts. Like, the kind of sculpts associated with Mantic at its worst. GW also has, within it's particular style, many successes. But for the legendary top dog, there are more stinkers in the bunch than I would expect.

I find that's worth remembering when a smaller company puts out an embarrassing sculpt, provided that it's an occasional thing and not stamped across the entire line. Even the big boys still make bad sculpts sometimes. (That doesn't mean I buy said bad sculpts. But I might not piss on that smaller company quite as hard for the error, either.)

 judgedoug wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
You seem to be taking these things way too personally.

Maybe take it down a notch or two?

Haha, I would say the same about you and Vermonter I'm just pointing out these totally subjective definitions of success. Hell of a moving target when one can claim 70k is a success and 250k is disappointing But I personally hold no cows as sacred

Did anyone bill MEdge as a success in that regard?


Some Karists, Angels and drones would sure make for a great plastic Revel army in WP, though.

I am actually a little bit shocked that the Plague and Asterian stretch goals have not made the total rise a fair bit more into the realm of other stretch goals thus far. Admittedly they have increased the pace a bit after a slow weekend, but I guess people have just switched their faction in their pledges of choice rather than contributing more money.

It is also probably indicative that "most" people do not want 50-100 basic infantry to paint up for a sci-fi battle game. I doubt add on terrain weds will do much either, personally if I wanted it now I could order it today and have it by Saturday.

Sure Warpath is a contender for 40k

Not a massive one by any stretch of the imagination.

But I was toying over starting a new CSM army.

or Warpath

I opted for Warpath - as the balancing mechanics employed by Games Workshop do my nut in.

I doubt there's many out there like me. But its money that was going to GW now going to Mantic

 Alpharius wrote:


It feels goofy and petty to drag MEdge in here to somehow show that Warpath is doing...great?

I thought it was pretty well understand that for superfans, they have an almost tribal allegiance to their product. Given that people here are on rules committees or otherwise carry serious water for Mantic, you're going to get some personal responses to critiques. Not right, not altogether wrong, but definitely a thing.

I want a serious competitor to challenge GW and 40K.

I was thinking Warpath might be it - sorry, my mistake!

I think we all do, but the reality is that 40k is leagues beyond what anybody could fund right now without high eight figures in funding. Even a relatively minor faction like Dark Eldar has what, two infantry boxes, bikes, skyboard riders, jump infantry, two transports, gunboat, monster, and a fighter. that's ten plastic sprues, all stuffed with bitz and options, and all of very high technical quality.

Nobody is going to be able to churn that out without major corporate backing. Looking at the fairly major kickstarters, most companies struggle to get 10 sprues total out the door, and 40k has that just for a single, lower tier faction! I think we all need to redefine what we mean by "40k alternative," because we're not going to see a true competitor that can go toe-to-toe. We simply are not. Warpath is at least mass sci-fi combat with vehicles.

Now, as rules go... A rule set that takes over 40k like KoW took over from fantasy is obviously much more doable, but I'm worried by the schizophrenic nature of the rules development at this point. We are also unlikely to see the not-ravening hordes book that KoW will get.

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
I am actually a little bit shocked that the Plague and Asterian stretch goals have not made the total rise a fair bit more into the realm of other stretch goals thus far. Admittedly they have increased the pace a bit after a slow weekend, but I guess people have just switched their faction in their pledges of choice rather than contributing more money.

It is also probably indicative that "most" people do not want 50-100 basic infantry to paint up for a sci-fi battle game. I doubt add on terrain weds will do much either, personally if I wanted it now I could order it today and have it by Saturday.

Well, the comments are still full of nutters who want a 8-battlegroup pledge, tho. I think we'll see at least a moderate surge once Mantic sweetens the pot. And you know they will.

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
I am actually a little bit shocked that the Plague and Asterian stretch goals have not made the total rise a fair bit more into the realm of other stretch goals thus far. Admittedly they have increased the pace a bit after a slow weekend, but I guess people have just switched their faction in their pledges of choice rather than contributing more money.

I have so much Plague and Asterian already from previous KS it isn't even funny. I understand they will be hard plastic but they are still going in the pile of lots of stuff I already have and would mean they would get sidelined since I'm not just going to simply replace existing to replace.

Now if Corporation was to make an appearance.. that would be a different thing since it is one of the factions that everyone didn't get overloaded in from multiple Kickstarters.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
I am actually a little bit shocked that the Plague and Asterian stretch goals have not made the total rise a fair bit more into the realm of other stretch goals thus far. Admittedly they have increased the pace a bit after a slow weekend, but I guess people have just switched their faction in their pledges of choice rather than contributing more money.

It is also probably indicative that "most" people do not want 50-100 basic infantry to paint up for a sci-fi battle game. I doubt add on terrain weds will do much either, personally if I wanted it now I could order it today and have it by Saturday.

Well, the comments are still full of nutters who want a 8-battlegroup pledge, tho. I think we'll see at least a moderate surge once Mantic sweetens the pot. And you know they will.

So I'm a nutter for wanting a deal for buying in bulk?

It's a little early for a post-mortem on Warpath. Regardless of what the campaign's final total is, it will get several viable forces out there. It's not like Mantic have to publish all 12 (or whatever the number is) of the Warpath armies at one go to make it viable. Over the years, it will probably see not only new armies introduced, but the phasing out of PVC and metal figures for even more HIPs kits.

The one thing I don't get about Mantic and HIPs is how it squares with Wyrd's Malifaux range. If you look at how Mantic approaches it with extreme caution, HIPs is an extremely costly investment, and therefore dangerous to get into too heavily without some backing or assurance of market viability. So Mantic focuses on core troopers for their main armies, and leaves specialists etc. as PVC, metal, or resin.

Meanwhile, Wyrd puts out kit after kit of figures so obscure they would be hard to fit into any other setting. Bayou Gremlins. Pig-a-pults. Undead ballerinas. There's just no cross-market appeal for these things: they fit their Malifaux niche, and that's it. Even bits-wise, it's hard to find a Malifaux kit that could have much use outside of its intended purpose. And I'm assuming that Malifaux isn't the next Magic: The Gathering in terms of sales. I'm hoping that it's doing moderately well with a dedicated fan base, but I can't imagine it's a phenomenon. Furthermore, Wyrd has put out a lot of these kits without KS backing.

So how do these two approaches square? How can Sphyr troopers in hard plastic be "yeah, sure, that'll be the day, dream on," when Wyrd is putting out a gothic rock 'n roll band in the same material?
Is the guy who runs Wyrd independently wealthy? Or insane? Or about to go broke?

Or are Mantic way too gun-shy with hard plastic?

 Alex C wrote:
So I'm a nutter for wanting a deal for buying in bulk?

For wanting that much stuff, not for wanting a good deal

@Vermonter, I am a member of a number of Wyrd social media groups. Its popularity is growing, but it has more of a boutique feel. For many it has an almost Pokemon "got to catch them all" type feel. The patrons seem to be quite wealthy, as every time Gencon/Black Friday rolls around most people seem to talk about dropping $500-$700+ on product like it was nothing, people love the sculpts. For further evidence of the money spent check ebay for the very high costs that exclusives fetch, I have no idea how many of these people buy, but surely nothing like as many as a core infantry line for a mass battle game. The sculpts are often very complex as well, seperate 3 piece faces, separate fingers etc etc. I think it is a range for painters and modellers that are prepared, and able to, spend big. I think that by the time that 2015 ends Wyrd will have put out at least 50 HIPS kits this year alone, ranging from crew boxes to $9 single figures.

For Mantic/Warpath it seems like more of a gamers range. Big armies, on the cheap and for many it seems like some of the sculpts will "just do". As to why Mantic seem to find the whole HIPS production a scary prospect I think they were initially burned by the failure of HIPS KOW Elves, and possibly Dwarves. These were slow to sell, and discounted everywhere. I still do not know if the Elves have made back their tooling costs some 5 years after they were made.

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
I am actually a little bit shocked that the Plague and Asterian stretch goals have not made the total rise a fair bit more into the realm of other stretch goals thus far. Admittedly they have increased the pace a bit after a slow weekend, but I guess people have just switched their faction in their pledges of choice rather than contributing more money.

It is also probably indicative that "most" people do not want 50-100 basic infantry to paint up for a sci-fi battle game. I doubt add on terrain weds will do much either, personally if I wanted it now I could order it today and have it by Saturday.

That's actually a good point. 40k grew in size over 25 years to become the beast it is today. It has an enormous amount of momentum. But when it comes down to it... Do people actually want a 28mm mass battle sci-if game?

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Alex C wrote:
So I'm a nutter for wanting a deal for buying in bulk?

For wanting that much stuff, not for wanting a good deal

I like it. I save money buying it all up front in bulk. Seems reasonable to me

 Mymearan wrote:
But when it comes down to it... Do people actually want a 28mm mass battle sci-if game?

At the scale of modern 40K and what Mantic seems to want Warpath to be? Not I.

I'd really like it if Firefight turned out to be a solid game at around 40K 2e size with a model range along the lines of early 3e 40K, where basic troops and vehicles were HIPS, but you might still have metals (or resin these days) for the more one-off or rarer inclusions for your army.

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
@Vermonter, I am a member of a number of Wyrd social media groups. Its popularity is growing, but it has more of a boutique feel. For many it has an almost Pokemon "got to catch them all" type feel. The patrons seem to be quite wealthy, as every time Gencon/Black Friday rolls around most people seem to talk about dropping $500-$700+ on product like it was nothing, people love the sculpts. For further evidence of the money spent check ebay for the very high costs that exclusives fetch, I have no idea how many of these people buy, but surely nothing like as many as a core infantry line for a mass battle game. The sculpts are often very complex as well, seperate 3 piece faces, separate fingers etc etc. I think it is a range for painters and modellers that are prepared, and able to, spend big. I think that by the time that 2015 ends Wyrd will have put out at least 50 HIPS kits this year alone, ranging from crew boxes to $9 single figures.

For Mantic/Warpath it seems like more of a gamers range. Big armies, on the cheap and for many it seems like some of the sculpts will "just do". As to why Mantic seem to find the whole HIPS production a scary prospect I think they were initially burned by the failure of HIPS KOW Elves, and possibly Dwarves. These were slow to sell, and discounted everywhere. I still do not know if the Elves have made back their tooling costs some 5 years after they were made.

Thanks for that informed response, Thraxas. It's always puzzled me how Wyrd has been able to do what it has done. I'm glad they are, though. Most of their kits are too Malifaux-specific for me, but every now and then they put out a good monster or something less stylized that I can use. The Razorspine rattler, for example, is the great hard plastic Plague monster that Mantic would never dream of publishing.



I hope Wyrd will get around to putting out their hard plastic Insidious Madness kit sometime in the coming months. The new design for that was great for mutants / Cthulhu inspired stuff.

 Vermonter wrote:
So how do these two approaches square? How can Sphyr troopers in hard plastic be "yeah, sure, that'll be the day, dream on," when Wyrd is putting out a gothic rock 'n roll band in the same material?
Is the guy who runs Wyrd independently wealthy? Or insane? Or about to go broke?

It might be a materials one - HIPS moulds come in different materials, which vary wildly in their machining costs, and consequently vary wildly in the number of sprues that can be pushed out before they suffer irreparable damage. Wyrd could simply be using one of the cheaper materials like aluminium or soft steel to do short runs for their small market, while Mantic is using hard aluminium alloys or tool steel anticipating much higher production runs. Hardened steel is what they use for enormous production runs like light switches, fittings, fridge door handles, etc.

 Psychopomp wrote:

 Mymearan wrote:
But when it comes down to it... Do people actually want a 28mm mass battle sci-if game?

At the scale of modern 40K and what Mantic seems to want Warpath to be? Not I.

I'd really like it if Firefight turned out to be a solid game at around 40K 2e size with a model range along the lines of early 3e 40K, where basic troops and vehicles were HIPS, but you might still have metals (or resin these days) for the more one-off or rarer inclusions for your army.

That's what I'm hoping for too!

I will most likely end up with a Forgefathers army of about that size...

@Vermonter, very good call on the Rattler. A model like that has two releases for Wyrd, the first via a crew box and then a single small box release as you can add multiples to your crew. It can be a small 6-8 model game but due to the rules (different "schemes/missions") you choose your crew on a game to game basis so it is good to have a pool of models to choose from, thus more spending.

Anyway I will try and get back on topic to the Warpath KS...do we see a tipping point where Mantic will get a bit manic and throw oodles more minis into the pledge levels? Or are they happy with how it is going and a total under 500k?

 NTRabbit wrote:

 Vermonter wrote:
So how do these two approaches square? How can Sphyr troopers in hard plastic be "yeah, sure, that'll be the day, dream on," when Wyrd is putting out a gothic rock 'n roll band in the same material?
Is the guy who runs Wyrd independently wealthy? Or insane? Or about to go broke?

It might be a materials one - HIPS moulds come in different materials, which vary wildly in their machining costs, and consequently vary wildly in the number of sprues that can be pushed out before they suffer irreparable damage. Wyrd could simply be using one of the cheaper materials like aluminium or soft steel to do short runs for their small market, while Mantic is using hard aluminium alloys or tool steel anticipating much higher production runs. Hardened steel is what they use for enormous production runs like light switches, fittings, fridge door handles, etc.

It's also a matter of who is doing the manufacturing. Wyrd is using Wargames Factory for their plastics (same company that did Kingdom Death, Dreamforge Games, and Secret Weapon Miniatures table tiles).

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
Anyway I will try and get back on topic to the Warpath KS...do we see a tipping point where Mantic will get a bit manic and throw oodles more minis into the pledge levels? Or are they happy with how it is going and a total under 500k?

It's going to be very interesting. I doubt they'll do anything until they see how adding the terrain goes over. I suspect it won't do much, personally. But then we'll see one of two things:

1. Sweeten-the-pot Mantic will do something that makes the main pledge a lot more attractive. Maybe add another vehicle to it. Or they might start adding one plastic sprue of all new troopers (the ones funded during this campaign) to the main pledge, so that it sweetens the pot, but also tempts people to invest in other forces, both during the campaign and after they get their rewards a year later. At no materials cost to themselves but with more sorting, they could bend and let people get 3 different vehicles in the bundles.

2. Tough-as-tacks Mantic, last seen during the Dreadball Xtreme KS, will say lump-it-or-like-it, our back is against the wall and we can't add any more value.

#2 will turn a stall into a backslide as more backers drop out than new ones come in. If they take option 2 it will cost them funding, so it's only worth doing if accepting that cost is better than the alternative. Otherwise, if their back isn't really against the wall, they'll be shooting their campaign in the foot.

If it were me, I'd improve the deal, even if it meant gambling a bit on the growth of the KS afterwards to offset it, or if it meant digging into my own pockets a little. The interesting thing is that ordinarily sweetening the pot is exactly what Mantic does, but this campaign is meant to proceed in the manner of KOW 2, where the value is in the discounted armies rather than an overstuffed pledge level. If that approach stops working and things stop cold or backslide, they may need to re-think that.

 Polonius wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:


It feels goofy and petty to drag MEdge in here to somehow show that Warpath is doing...great?

I thought it was pretty well understand that for superfans, they have an almost tribal allegiance to their product. Given that people here are on rules committees or otherwise carry serious water for Mantic, you're going to get some personal responses to critiques. Not right, not altogether wrong, but definitely a thing.

I love that you consider me a superfan with a tribal allegiance and carrying water for... wait, I really like Age of Sigmar and I'm heavily critical of Warpath's rules. What just happened? It's cute though. Stupendous logical fallacy aside.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vermonter wrote:
The one thing I don't get about Mantic and HIPs is how it squares with Wyrd's Malifaux range. If you look at how Mantic approaches it with extreme caution, HIPs is an extremely costly investment, and therefore dangerous to get into too heavily without some backing or assurance of market viability. So Mantic focuses on core troopers for their main armies, and leaves specialists etc. as PVC, metal, or resin.

Meanwhile, Wyrd puts out kit after kit of figures so obscure they would be hard to fit into any other setting.

Regarding Wyrd, they have some pretty talented 3d sculptors and a contract with Wargames Factory - working on credit/sales, much like Dreamforge. Mantic is obviously not using Wargames Factory.

Just wanted to say thank you to everyone for all the commentary on producing hard plastic / how Wyrd does what it does. I am greatly edified.

I now return you to your regular Warpath rambling . . .

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
Anyway I will try and get back on topic to the Warpath KS...do we see a tipping point where Mantic will get a bit manic and throw oodles more minis into the pledge levels?

Nope.

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
Or are they happy with how it is going and a total under 500k?

Yes. They said, what, a year and a half ago, that their goal is a series of 3-4 Kickstarters per year, all of a manageable size, with limited customizability. This is after the "oodles of minis" of KoW1, DB1, DZ1, where their logistics were overwhelmed by their success. It seems that a lot of armchair generals in this thread are either unaware, have forgotten, or choose to ignore this.

Since then, they've had continuously improving logistics, quality, and turnaround times. If Warpath ended today, it would be a huge success as it will have funded several new kits that will continue Mantic's viability in the marketplace. Then, they'd launch another in six months to fund more kits.

However, it's easy to say that Mantic's current and last few Kickstarters are failures if your entire goal is to criticize them; all evidence, however, would not be on your side.

If anything, Mantic has learned how to strategically control their growth. Contrast to someone like Warlord who has continual supply and retail issues because they cannot keep up with their growth, or FFG who continually have failures because their supply cannot meet their demand.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:


It feels goofy and petty to drag MEdge in here to somehow show that Warpath is doing...great?

I thought it was pretty well understand that for superfans, they have an almost tribal allegiance to their product. Given that people here are on rules committees or otherwise carry serious water for Mantic, you're going to get some personal responses to critiques. Not right, not altogether wrong, but definitely a thing.

I love that you consider me a superfan with a tribal allegiance and carrying water for... wait, I really like Age of Sigmar. What just happened? It's cute though. Stupendous logical fallacy aside.

I apologize if you're offended, but I tried to avoid more emotionally charged terms (fanboi, white knight, etc). You are a vociferous commenter about mantic on multiple forums, and you clearly are invested in their success, even if only as a dedicated customer. My point was, I don't think you're out of line for reacting to critiques of Mantic, given your demonstrated attachment to the company and their product.

It is possible you're getting a little too bunkered in if you think my comment was some sort of attack.

@Judgedoug:

I kindof agree, nearly $250k is no chump change. I think a lot of perceptions are formed by the massive successes of DZ 1 and DB 1. But they also welcomed in the buoyant board game market, something that Warpath does not appeal to.

 NTRabbit wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Like I already said, Mantic obviously rushed this and knowingly sacrificed a higher pledge total in order to get some money fast, which suggests that they're desperate for cash.

They almost completely sold out of KoW a month ago, why do you keep saying they're desperate for cash? It's a narrative only you think is true

Two different systems; there might be some crossover but fantasy gamers and sci-fi gamers don't necessarily have to be the same people.

Got nothing to do with crossover or same people, being sold out of all the first print run rule books and much of the second, and a lot of armies - remember this is after all the KS backer product had been ringfenced - shows Mantic have plenty of retail profits flowing in just from KoW. ie there is no cash shortage

Mind you I'm not even attempting to say they have a cash shortage. I'm just saying that if you're only measure of success depends on an unknown data point like how much actual stock was on hand before it sold out, you're just guessing as much as the people saying they're broke and need money NAOW! GW manage stock on items all the time and laud themselves as things sell out when they only ever had 1000 copies to begin with (hurry and buy it now before it sells out).

 Thraxas Of Turai wrote:
@Judgedoug:

I kindof agree, nearly $250k is no chump change. I think a lot of perceptions are formed by the massive successes of DZ 1 and DB 1. But they also welcomed in the buoyant board game market, something that Warpath does not appeal to.

I do think that might be part of it. Our reptile brain figures that a kickstarter for a game with more minis must make more money, when in fact mass combat (or even skirmish) games that are not boardgame-ish are a much smaller market than hobby boardgames.

I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the market for this kickstarter is. KoW (both 1&2) had pretty solid rulessets already out there, and they both funded pretty substantial armies, as well as books (KoW funded Basileans, Ogres, and Goblins, IIFC, while KoW2 funded Abyssals and Nature). So, the appeal was to people that liked the established, if Beta, rules that were out there, also people that wanted to create new armies, or buy into old ones for cheap.

this one doesn't have the advantage of goodwill towards the rules. The biggest draw are the armies, but the new stuff has oozed out. Also, not much of it can be used in 40k, compared to the very direct ports available to KoW models. So, you need to get people to like sketched out models to play on sketched out rules. It's a much bigger leap of faith for a company, that, with all due respect, hasn't earned a lot of trust.

 Polonius wrote:
I apologize if you're offended, but I tried to avoid more emotionally charged terms (fanboi, white knight, etc). You are a vociferous commenter about mantic on multiple forums, and you clearly are invested in their success, even if only as a dedicated customer. My point was, I don't think you're out of line for reacting to critiques of Mantic, given your demonstrated attachment to the company and their product.

It is possible you're getting a little too bunkered in if you think my comment was some sort of attack.

You're right, it's a vicious cycle of self-hatred because I'm such a white knight and cannot stand criticism of any kind of Mantic yet I continue to be critical of mistakes that Mantic makes. Please, Polonius, tell me what to do! Even if you have to invent a fiction, as you have just demonstrated your excellent ability to do.

Yeah, maybe some of us were a bit unfair. It's been a long time since any strictly wargaming KS raised this sort of money besides Mantic.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I apologize if you're offended, but I tried to avoid more emotionally charged terms (fanboi, white knight, etc). You are a vociferous commenter about mantic on multiple forums, and you clearly are invested in their success, even if only as a dedicated customer. My point was, I don't think you're out of line for reacting to critiques of Mantic, given your demonstrated attachment to the company and their product.

It is possible you're getting a little too bunkered in if you think my comment was some sort of attack.

You're right, it's a vicious cycle of self-hatred because I'm such a white knight and cannot stand criticism of any kind of Mantic yet I continue to be critical of mistakes that Mantic makes. Please, Polonius, tell me what to do! Even if you have to invent a fiction, as you have just demonstrated your excellent ability to do.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but I might be doing a very poor job of communicating if that's the message you're receiving.