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 Bolognesus wrote:
Oh dear. A discussion on what does, and what does not, constitute a tank. Probably best if everyone who doesn't immediately decide to have a go at that debate check back at page 25 or so - that's probably going to be less than 12h knowing how these things usually go

@MLaw
I see your point. still it could have done with not literally being a 3ft (to scale) solid metal (or whatever) plate. I know they're dwarves but hell, you'd say they'd have gotten *some* idea of fuel efficiency by now.
...Not even to mention you'd really want all that additional thickness up front. Maybe evening out the zillion shot traps. (gah, now I'm doing it too!)

I do however really like the front of that thing more and more every time I see those renders. It's perfectly corny, yet somehow not quite too much. Shame I have no interest in forge fathers as a whole, but those will be cool to see on the table. ...as long as they're coming at you, that is

Yeah, I'm with you. It really is not perfectly practical. Having it be segmented and with a skid bar or something might make a little more sense. Hopefully there is still time for them to slim it up a bit and add a few greebles.

Here's to hoping it doesn't just look like they hadn't finished that particular bit yet. We'll see.

Actually, the tank is the first thing that's made me think I might be able to justify getting 3. Not to field at once, but for the variety. Somehow the dropship doesn't quite do that for me, even though it has basically the same range of uses, from troop transport to assault unit.

I still think $30 is too much for a Kickstarter. We won't all agree on that, but can we at least agree that in practice $30 hasn't been low enough to pump this KS campaign full of adrenaline? $20 would blow the doors off this thing; even $25 would be a reasonable price point. Get four vehicles for $100 - I could see a lot of people doing that. Of course, it would help if they dropped this "only bundles of the same vehicle" stuff.

They already have 3 for $75. It hasn't worked. They need to push back harder if they're going to save this patient!

20cc's of $20 tanks--stat, dammit! Stat!

That's a fair point- I realize Bonesium is not the same material, but the Victoria Miniatures Basilisk BFG boomgun with crew was a $30 add on in that campaign.

Now in Mantic's defence, the three pack of vehicles IS in fact 25 dollars per vehicle. And as far as I can tell, most of their figures are down to the dollar a mini level, as long as you buy at least 20. Price point seems quite reasonable.

It's not bad. We were all hoping for $20 tanks and if this happened back when Deadzone was running instead... maybe. But prices go up as time goes on.

Still.. if there was some kind of 5 tanks for $100... but ehh, I'll probably still buy some at the 3/75 price point, just not as many, maybe miss out on a faction or two because of things are arranged, but it's not a big deal.

Still waiting for GCPS, kind of excited after seeing the concept art... but we'll see.

 Gitzbitah wrote:
That's a fair point- I realize Bonesium is not the same material, but the Victoria Miniatures Basilisk BFG boomgun with crew was a $30 add on in that campaign.

She produces expensive, niche products even for our hobby, and it was still too expensive. Plus, it was much bigger.

The reason I'm not on board for 3 for $75 (other than hoping for $20) is that I don't want to be on the hook for 3 of one type of vehicle at the moment.

Dropships, 1 will do it until I am convinced it's a better kit and that you need more than 1.

Tunneler - 2 is ideal for my purposes which have nothing to do with Skaven.

FF Tank is the only one I would consider going deeper on. I am not overly fond of the GWness of having an APC and the main tank based on the same chassis but as it were, this is not a terran tank so I can make a concession (yes I have some kind of neurosis where I have to make up explanations for why my plastic dudesmen do stuff).


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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Gitzbitah wrote:
That's a fair point- I realize Bonesium is not the same material, but the Victoria Miniatures Basilisk BFG boomgun with crew was a $30 add on in that campaign.

She produces expensive, niche products even for our hobby, and it was still too expensive. Plus, it was much bigger.

In fairness, the type of "bonesium" it's to be made of is basically just white HIPS.


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 Gitzbitah wrote:
That's a fair point- I realize Bonesium is not the same material, but the Victoria Miniatures Basilisk BFG boomgun with crew was a $30 add on in that campaign.

Now in Mantic's defence, the three pack of vehicles IS in fact 25 dollars per vehicle. And as far as I can tell, most of their figures are down to the dollar a mini level, as long as you buy at least 20. Price point seems quite reasonable.

I can't argue that most of the infantry are very fairly priced, they are. Mantic painted themselves into a corner though with the choices they made starting this and their strategy to get out of said corner has been slow coming :(

To counter the 'Two vehicles on one chasis' thing, it's done in the real world, why be specialized when you can have a base chasis to put the specializations on? It's practical.
There, got that off my chest, wow, that Brandr looks incredible, given how my cities are compact, I may get a few tanks now!

There may be instances where it's done but I still don't care for it. There are practical reasons for the two roles to be separate but that's probably also an off-topic area discussion.

On a side-note. DZ:I showed a Terraton in an update today along with some vagueness about Warpath. I can't remember what they were about in DZ:I but if Terratons were in WP as mercs, that would be kinda awesome.

And I do remember Terraton Shock Troopers being mentioned somewhere, so you may be on to something!

krystalking wrote:
To counter the 'Two vehicles on one chasis' thing, it's done in the real world, why be specialized when you can have a base chasis to put the specializations on? It's practical.
There, got that off my chest, wow, that Brandr looks incredible, given how my cities are compact, I may get a few tanks now!

That does tend to end up with both specialized versions having just about the same level of protection, as well as inside space etc.
One vehicle that's very heavily armoured but only has room for a few crewmembers plus ammo would have a very different chassis from a vehicle that has much lighter armour, less weaponry and more personnel carrying capacity...
Although I wouldn't dare compare to any real world examples in this thread

Those shock trooper terratons are metal iirc and I'm not sure how much variability the sculpt is gonna have if people were trying to make small units of them... But maybe possible.

I think it was suggested that in the future Mantic should do some hard plastic infantry mercenary boxes, and their response on the kickstarter comments seemed positive though hardly anything concrete as a 'yeah that's a good idea, maybe sometime' kind of thing.

I'd definitely buy a box each of yndij, sorak, grogans, helfathers, maybe even hobgoblins and so on. Heck, maybe even zees if they ever manage to make them look decent. Maybe another kickstarter

 Vermonter wrote:
There's precedent for Mantic to raise prices due to people complaining about prices being higher on the original KS campaign.
But I don't really think they can afford to change the prices this time. If 20 for $20 deals suddenly changed to 20 for $30, or $15 plastic metal hybrids became $20, even more people would flip out than the people who are upset now.
The difference is that this is the Warpath kickstarter, and even moreso than Deadzone, people are going to want to get tons of troops cheaply. If Mantic can't sell 20 for $20 troop deals, that's a pretty major blow to the entire campaign.
Anyway, I've been a part of all the Deadzone campaigns and I've invested in most of the minis to some degree at previous prices. I'll be pissed if they reverse course and increase the better discounted prices of this KS.

I agree. It'd be a bad move for them to raise prices on figures in this KS, and I don't see it happening.


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 judgedoug wrote:
As a consumer who loves generic sci fi stuff, there's nothing on the market that can compare with the Mantic Dropship. The Valkyrie is very specifically a 40k aesthetic. Other alternatives are WAY too small (GZG,Old Crow) and non-existent (Antenociti's Workshop). The price is right around 1/48 model kits and don't have the side effect of looking like kitbashed Apaches or Hinds.

I think the Valkyrie is one of the better, more generic designs for this sort of thing. It fits with 40k, but doesn't have an overly-40k aesthetic to me.

I like my Valkyrie, though I'm not sure it looks like it can fly. It's nice and functional with sliding doors and a dropping ramp. The clear cockpit is nice but I'm more likely to fill it in than not.

I'm thinking the chunkiness of it will lend it well to being either a Marauder vehicle or something the plague dug up. Rebs maybe.

I tried to make this distinction earlier, but basically there's two arguments to be had. First we can have an ethical discussion about whether $30 per vehicle is a good enough price point for us. (And as others have said, it's the "buy three for 25 each but only if they're the same" that bothers me.) That argument is open and interminable.

The other argument is whether $30 a vehicle is actually working right now as a price strategy, or if the KS is slowing and stalling too much because it isn't. Personally I don't think the 20/$20 troop prices could be improved. The only other major new thing coming out of this is vehicles (yes, rules too, but I don't think that's driving as many people. "They're unfinished," "I hate the hub idea," and so on.) So if $30 per vehicle or $75 for 3-of-the-same is so wonderful, why is this campaign crawling now, right when major stuff is getting unlocked like a new faction and a tank?

Put another way, your opinion doesn't matter, and neither does mine. We're already interested and invested, to varying degrees. The opinion of all the people who aren't pouring in to take advantage of $30 vehicles is the one that counts, and arguing with them that they're wrong to think that way because (insert market comparison or moral reason) is not a working sales pitch. "The deal isn't good enough for you to pledge? Well, it should be. Shame on you." Yep, that will bring them in in droves. Now we can be cynical and say, "what potential customers?", i.e. that this Kickstarter has topped out with as big an audience as it was ever going to get, and that's why it's stalling. I don't believe that. And one reason I'd like to see $20 vehicles is because it would put this KS on overdrive, maybe even to the point where the GCPS would become assured and Mantic would start thinking about other factions again. As a fan, I'd like to see that happen.

Oh, and as for "the campaign IS working, we just unlocked a faction and a tank!" Actually, we didn't. Both of those stretch goals needed to be a lot higher than they were for Mantic to afford them. What Mantic is currently doing, and which will have to change back soon, is taking the buffer stretch goal money that they got on the first day that was well in excess of what they needed for some things, and applying that to get us through some helpful goals quicker. Think of it like a duck in an egg. Right now, Mantic is using the yolk to drive this KS. But the duck can't stay in the egg because the yolk gets used up and there isn't any more coming, so Mantic is going to have to get out and starting finding some grain (more backers and a lot more money coming in) pretty soon, or this duckling isn't going to grow. This is why Mantic won't be introducing the GCPS faction anytime soon. They need more real money coming in - a lot more than $15,000 or whatever the Asterian faction goal was - to even consider it, because the real cost of producing hard plastic soldiers is a heck of a lot higher, and their surplus from the first day won't cover it.

 GrimDork wrote:
Those shock trooper terratons are metal iirc and I'm not sure how much variability the sculpt is gonna have if people were trying to make small units of them... But maybe possible.

I think it was suggested that in the future Mantic should do some hard plastic infantry mercenary boxes, and their response on the kickstarter comments seemed positive though hardly anything concrete as a 'yeah that's a good idea, maybe sometime' kind of thing.

I'd definitely buy a box each of yndij, sorak, grogans, helfathers, maybe even hobgoblins and so on. Heck, maybe even zees if they ever manage to make them look decent. Maybe another kickstarter

I would buy metal ones or resin if they can't do plastic, really, as much as I am loathe to admit it, the restic Terraton from DZ is one of the best examples of that materials use. It's not ideal IMO but maybe we need to explore a middle ground where the game and ranges can grow with figures that a KS like this can sustain?

We got the FF tanks basically wrapped up, so that seems to be Enforcers, FF, Veer-Myn buttoned up (right?) and Plague is mostly done minus some vehicles maybe? Then Asterians need their transport right?
Is the plan after that the Corp/Plague vehicle to wrap up Plague and transition into Corp? With 10 days left (meaning another add-on Wed) this seems plausible unless I missed something. Something that is off-putting though is how long these "alpha" (I thought they were beta already) rules have been out with nothing for the Corporation.
Corporation would have:
Striders (already exists)
Dropship shared with Plague from rumors
Possibly an infantry kit that could double up as a elite unit (rumors surrounding the concept art)
Probable leader

I would think another idea for a kit could be a wheeled APC (like a BMP) that you could swap the upper hull on for a light wheeled fighting vehicle like that 6x6 that Secret Weapon makes.

Am I missing anything?

I'm really hoping to see a plague/gcps vehicle and then a gcps/plague vehicle. That way both factions get two, mad synergy Corporation is supposed to have tanks, and I think we need some other tanks on the board or the forge fathers are going to have brought a ground fighting vehicle to a dropship/fighter skirmish. But dropship for the corporation/plague would be great too. Hoping fervently for both, as well as hard plastic GCPS that don't completely mock my old restic boys.

I think if they're gonna do a GCPS marine sprue, they really need to do their best to give it the Steel Warriors treatment and get an extra sprue of bits to allow them to be rangers. The default guys can already cover veterans (paint them differently, slightly different weapon options that should be easy to include by default), and with just some helmets and maybe grav chutes they should be pretty easy to roll into a rangers/marines box too.

The 'almost looks like ronnie' GCPS leader model they have in metal already is pretty solid still, I think he holds up well enough.

I was hoping for some light vehicles for the various factions, but those would probably have to wait for epic funding.

Corp should really have an APC, along with a heavy dropships that can lift the APC (or three strikers or something).

Do we have any idea if the Rebs from Deadzone are going to make it into this game in any fashion? Seems like some of the miniatures could make good mercenaries.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Corp should really have an APC, along with a heavy dropships that can lift the APC (or three strikers or something).

That's kinda where I was thinking of the multi-role wheeled kit and Dropship (I coulda sworn the rumor was plague and corp shared dropship, hadn't heard the tank one).

In my mind, Corporation tends to be an urban reactionary force, meaning heavy armor might not be as ideal as faster wheeled vehicles that can be carried by aircraft.
like version A of the kit could make



But that seam around where the headlights are and up is where the build would split if you wanted to make a tank instead, making something like



Adding a skirt to cover half of the rear wheels would help distance the two visually but it would still be essentially the same kit.

I'll be in for everything GCPS. Humans aren't my faction of choice as I'm more of a creature / robot guy, but I do need them, and I have a feeling I'll like Mantic's much better than anyone else's. Also, great fodder for Plague conversions.

From the way Mantic are framing their updates, I think it's clear that they really want the GCPS to happen, and conversely, that they're pretty solidly convinced that further factions beyond that will not be happening. I wouldn't be surprised to see the GCPS funded through the survey if they don't make it during the campaign (although I think they will make it during the campaign). But if you're holding out for Rebs in plastic, I think you'll be disappointed unless Mantic does do some game-changing deal tomorrow that takes this far beyond their expectations. If we get to $750,000 with the final days to spare and momentum running hot, (I seriously doubt it will happen) maybe then they'd start talking a new faction beyond GCPS. But if we wrap this where most people think it will end, around $500,000, that's the GCPS, hopefully all the vehicles, and a bunch of metal specialists / hybrids. Again, that's due to the actual cost of producing these kits, rather than the discounted cost that they're currently strategically buffering with their diminishing first-day surplus.

Anyhow, that's my Nostradamus prediction.

 Vermonter wrote:
I tried to make this distinction earlier, but basically there's two arguments to be had. First we can have an ethical discussion about whether $30 per vehicle is a good enough price point for us. (And as others have said, it's the "buy three for 25 each but only if they're the same" that bothers me.) That argument is open and interminable.

The other argument is whether $30 a vehicle is actually working right now as a price strategy, or if the KS is slowing and stalling too much because it isn't. Personally I don't think the 20/$20 troop prices could be improved. The only other major new thing coming out of this is vehicles (yes, rules too, but I don't think that's driving as many people. "They're unfinished," "I hate the hub idea," and so on.) So if $30 per vehicle or $75 for 3-of-the-same is so wonderful, why is this campaign crawling now, right when major stuff is getting unlocked like a new faction and a tank?

Put another way, your opinion doesn't matter, and neither does mine. We're already interested and invested, to varying degrees. The opinion of all the people who aren't pouring in to take advantage of $30 vehicles is the one that counts, and arguing with them that they're wrong to think that way because (insert market comparison or moral reason) is not a working sales pitch. "The deal isn't good enough for you to pledge? Well, it should be. Shame on you." Yep, that will bring them in in droves. Now we can be cynical and say, "what potential customers?", i.e. that this Kickstarter has topped out with as big an audience as it was ever going to get, and that's why it's stalling. I don't believe that. And one reason I'd like to see $20 vehicles is because it would put this KS on overdrive, maybe even to the point where the GCPS would become assured and Mantic would start thinking about other factions again. As a fan, I'd like to see that happen.

Oh, and as for "the campaign IS working, we just unlocked a faction and a tank!" Actually, we didn't. Both of those stretch goals needed to be a lot higher than they were for Mantic to afford them. What Mantic is currently doing, and which will have to change back soon, is taking the buffer stretch goal money that they got on the first day that was well in excess of what they needed for some things, and applying that to get us through some helpful goals quicker. Think of it like a duck in an egg. Right now, Mantic is using the yolk to drive this KS. But the duck can't stay in the egg because the yolk gets used up and there isn't any more coming, so Mantic is going to have to get out and starting finding some grain (more backers and a lot more money coming in) pretty soon, or this duckling isn't going to grow. This is why Mantic won't be introducing the GCPS faction anytime soon. They need more real money coming in - a lot more than $15,000 or whatever the Asterian faction goal was - to even consider it, because the real cost of producing hard plastic soldiers is a heck of a lot higher, and their surplus from the first day won't cover it.

I think another aspect, one that is certainly affecting MY pledge level, is the familiarity people have with Mantic's Kickstarters and the knowledge of the impending Pledge Manager. I'm in for an Early Bird lot, and I don't 'need' to pledge any more because I know that I can increase my pledge to any level at all after the Kickstarter finishes. Why bother committing my money now (or, upon campaign completion) when I get an extra month or 3 or 6 window while the pledge manager is resolved?
I think you're a bit wrong about the 'real cost' of producing the sprues though: 15k is definitely in the ballpark for the cost of a HIPS 5-model sprue.

That's why they value the number of backers more than the total take. They know all those PM spenders will increase that take considerably.

As for $15,000 to make a 5 model HIPS sprue, I wish that were true. Then we could have all the new models in HIPS with none of this metal / resin nonsense.

Oh, and I actually have a good argument for why you should spend money now. Are you married? Will your wife flip out if she sees a charge for $600 or whatever on your credit card bill? Then invest $300 in the campaign, and $300 several months later in the pledge manager.

I'm evil.

 Vermonter wrote:


Oh, and I actually have a good argument for why you should spend money now. Are you married? Will your wife flip out if she sees a charge for $600 or whatever on your credit card bill? Then invest $300 in the campaign, and $300 several months later in the pledge manager.

I'm evil.

C'mon Vermonter, that's Kickstarter 101. Pledge enough to let it slip past the significant other, slowly pile in the PM all you can get away with afterwards.

I'm really curious about what the deal will be tomorrow as well. Lockdown was a crazy deal when all was said and done. Hope this one will be too.

I could stand a few more alien mercs though...

You guys keep suggesting wheeled and tracked vehicles for the GCPS. As I recall, Mantic had originally stated that the GCPS uses hover vehicles. The intent was that they're trying to show their technological superiority by having fancy, flashy flying tanks.

Am I the only one hoping that they'll offer up some Mars Attacks Battlezones as well? I'd love for another chance to get those at decent prices. If they offered a Battlezone add-on with those buildings, I'd probably throw down for some.

 Barzam wrote:
You guys keep suggesting wheeled and tracked vehicles for the GCPS. As I recall, Mantic had originally stated that the GCPS uses hover vehicles. The intent was that they're trying to show their technological superiority by having fancy, flashy flying tanks.

But hover vehicles look like gak. Get a competent concept artist and you can make a fictional tank, armoured car, helicopter or aeroplane look like something that really drives or flies. A hover vehicle cannot do that - it must always rely on "It just does, okay?"

A couple things about the vehicle deals bug me.

$30 seems a bit high to me, especially not having good scale pics or final design yet. $25 each or 5 for $100 mix/match would be much more interesting. I'd like to get 1-2 vehicles for armies I'll only play FF with DZ/DZI guys already bought and 4-6 for a couple mass battle armies.

Second issue is having to buy a bundle of three, at least for interceptor so far, to get all options. The tunneler isn't as bad, as I could buy 2 to make a double. It would be ideal in both cases to just pay $5 and buy the "upgrade" kit to magnetize and outfit vehicles on a per-game basis.

I'm sure this would make packing more of a PITA, but I'm on the fence about getting vehicles other than beard tanks right now, which also dulls my interest in picking up any additional infantry. On the other hand, if I only spend 1/4 to 1/3 of what I'd planned to beforehand, more for something else.

 Polonius wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
Given that people here are on rules committees

Was this necessary?

No good deed goes unpunished, I guess.

Fair enough, I did slightly misconstrue the intent of your post. I was just a bit miffed that since none of the RC actively shill for Mantic, and will publically criticise them when they put their pants on their head, why bring us into a tangent we weren't even involved in?

 AlexHolker wrote:

 Barzam wrote:
You guys keep suggesting wheeled and tracked vehicles for the GCPS. As I recall, Mantic had originally stated that the GCPS uses hover vehicles. The intent was that they're trying to show their technological superiority by having fancy, flashy flying tanks.

But hover vehicles look like gak. Get a competent concept artist and you can make a fictional tank, armoured car, helicopter or aeroplane look like something that really drives or flies. A hover vehicle cannot do that - it must always rely on "It just does, okay?"

Eh, I think it really depends on who is designing it and what the overall aesthetic they're going for is. The Asterian "tank" for instance is supposed to be a hovercraft and it looks pretty cool. Eldar and Tau vehicles are all hovercrafts and they look decent. Heavy Gear, actually, has some pretty cool looking Earth-built hovertanks. There's also the two hovertanks that Antenociti's Workshop did. They don't all need to look like flying deodorant sticks like the Hammer's Slammers or the multitude of others based on them.