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The run from agile is before shooting. And the revenant paid 165 points for the mobility it has.

I wasn't attempting to be flippant, and I didn't just put arbitrary numbers on the revenant titan. I updated and fixed the 4th edition build a vehicle and monster design rules. I was actually able to categorize the survivability granted by toughness, wounds, speed, av, and hull points. This let me figure out the points totals of weapon loadout. I then used the shadowsword's volcano cannon as the baseline point total for large blast strenght D and went on to balance all of the others against that.

The revenant's guns have twice the shots, but half the range. If they were at the maximum range of the storm sword, the titan would take 2-3 unanswered shots before it hopefully destroys the tank.

The warhound is perfectly capable of killing the revenant. This is a titan level D weapon fight, with the core rules either one could kill the other with a single salvo and with the range advantage of the warhound it would get the first 2 rounds of shots in in a vacuum.

If the price point for all superheavy vehicles were dropped to a level appropriate for normal table size the revenant would be tame in comparison.

I'm sorry to say this but your fan created VDRs don't really hold much water during discussions about the comparative effectiveness of various units. They aren't official, most people don't know about/don't use them and they may be very biased. Maybe something you weigh heavily isn't as effective as you think it is or something you think isn't effective is in some unforeseen situations. Bottom line is that if you want to convince people that the Revenant titan isn't OP using rules you made up isn't a good way to do it.

Titans in general are, in my opinion, a little over the top for general gaming regardless of type. Now setting something up before hand so your opponent is prepared to face a Titan is one thing, but just dropping one on the table as a "Surprise!" thing is rather a TFG move in my ever so humble opinion.

They're a different class of weapon. In real world terms you don't carry a Glock and expect to take on a Humvee with with a .50 cal machine gun mounted to the cupola and expect to have a snowballs chance in hell of victory. One of these things is not like the other.

I own one Imperial Knight (still in box, will be building it later this year or just after the first of the year next year). That will be the largest model I own for 40k, and is my 'response' for big things such as Wraithknights and other large models. I love the model and look forward to getting it built and painted up soon.

If folks want to run a Revenant, or Warhound, or similarly sized vehicle/unit, that's fine. I just personally won't be playing against that person as I don't feel like getting hammered for 5+ turns (if that long) and not having any chance of doing anything meaningful. Eldar are already a powerful enough army on their own before you factor in titans or other similarly powerful units. Though, if I set up a game ahead of time and *know* I'm going to be fighting said titan or large unit and can prepare to fight against it (agreeing to do so with my opponent) then I have no issue playing against it.

Just my opinion. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I'm sorry to say this but your fan created VDRs don't really hold much water during discussions about the comparative effectiveness of various units. They aren't official, most people don't know about/don't use them and they may be very biased. Maybe something you weigh heavily isn't as effective as you think it is or something you think isn't effective is in some unforeseen situations. Bottom line is that if you want to convince people that the Revenant titan isn't OP using rules you made up isn't a good way to do it.

I respect your opinion here, I can't expect to convince you via a discussion about the validity of my vdr. But what I will say is that every other superheavy and gargantuan creature that has been decried as too strong or too weak that I have put through this ruleset I've been able to give not only the point total that it would be to make it balanced, but also what exactly would need to be added to make it worth the points spent on it.

I've spent 9 months building and refining the v/mcdr, with public feedback and hundreds of hours ensuring the points held within it aren't skewed one way or another. I can tell you that ork transports are all overcosted by the transport capacity number, and that the killakans don't get any point discount for their cowardly grots rule. I can tell you that tyranid monstrous creatures actually pay upwards of 20 points for their instinctive behavior rule, and the synapse and shadows of the warp are a 20 point upgrade. Imperial armies don't pay for the tank rule on their vehicles where xenos do. I can tell you that battlefocus is only a 10 point upgrade for walkers, and that eldar can't make a vehicle with an armor value above 12 unless it has at least 21 hullpoints.

I can tell you all of this, and all I'm really doing is farting in the wind because you have no reason to believe me. If you don't agree with the points I presented earlier in the thread, how many points would you say each of those things are worth? Is 165 points too cheap for almost flyer level speed? Are the eldar holofield really not worth more than three times imperial voidshields? Consider the fact that the weapons used solely to drop the shields actually threaten the revenant where they cannot possibly hurt the warhound. How much more do you think the pulsars are worth? 185 per gun doesn't seem unreasonable considering the two are worth as much combined as some other superheavy vehicles.

Help prove me wrong, use the rules linked in my signature, show me where things are broken and I am always willing to fix it. I am getting close to sending it to games workshop to see what they think, I want it to be so tight they can't help but take a closer look and maybe stop doing things that break the game. (A boy can hope...)

Tried warhound + 3 knights vs. various lists last weekend. Not as unbalanced as you'd think. Not the most amazing of games, but still, there's more to it than many realise (but to be quite frank, the average play level in 40K is... suboptimal).

zerosignal wrote:
Tried warhound + 3 knights vs. various lists last weekend. Not as unbalanced as you'd think. Not the most amazing of games, but still, there's more to it than many realise (but to be quite frank, the average play level in 40K is... suboptimal).

Sounds like either a nightmare to play against or just really boring.

A warhound killing a revenant titan relies on a fair amount of luck (two sixes on the d chart or one six and then another on the hull point removal) and rather poor luck on the part of the eldar player (only 1's and 2's for holofield rolls) - not to mention the imperial player getting first turn and the eldar player making large tactical errors.
With my setup (single TBTLD) the holofield will statistically take both of them; thats assuming that both my TBTLD shots hit which is tricky given how thin and spindly the revenant is - no such problems against imperial titans because of thier bulk.

In order for the revenant to be within range of the warhound and not having enough range itself requires the table to be just over 8 foot long because thats the maximum range of a TBTLD (96") the eldar pulsar range is 60".
It can move 36", run and then fire it's remaining pulsar - so even when the revenant has ended up outside the warhound's maximum range, the revenant can get first shot on it in it's turn.

The other option is that your deployment zone is only ever 24" away from the enemies - so if you put your revenant on the leading edge of your deployment zone the table would need to be 168" long to allow the mentioned scenario to occurr - thats Fourteen Feet Long!!! perhaps even longer if you account for the warhounds 12" movement.

Holofield don't stop two thirds of the incoming fire. If it doesn't move, then a one or two denies the shot. If it moves then a 1-3 does. It works in the opposite scale of saves but most people seem to not realize it. At best the holofield will only stop half of the shots directed at it and that is only if it had a chance to move.

That may be why you believe it to be overpowered, someone has been cheating with the rules/ read it wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the revenant only has 9 hullpoints. Meaning g that if a 6 on the D table got through it will kill the revenant on a 3+ on the d6.

The Revenant is fine.

It's the Warhound that's broken, because the Turbolasers have Blast. Take the blast off of them, and they'd be fine.

ah, no just a regular old mistake because i don't play people using the escalation suppliment - i use apocalypse 1st edition.

Even so, it's half of all shots which have actually hit - firing at it is no garuantee of all hits. (one hit is normal, two hits is lucky and no hits happens more often than i'd like)

Just repeating this as i'm a fan of not getting sidetracked - you'd need a table with one board edge being between 8 and 16 feet long to attempt what you're saying, and the revenant can cover that range difference between it and imperial equivalents with it's jump jets..




edit: eldar pulsars are 2 large blasts too.

Revenant has blast as well. The double barrel turbolaser destructor is priced at 10 points less than the pulsars by forgeworld/GW. It should be 100 points more than that if you use the volcano cannon as the baseline for strD large blast weapons (it was the only one I haven't seen people complain about being overpowered)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, it can make up the range with jump jets. That's why they are of similar point values. If it didn't have the jump jets it would be 735 points. Drop the holofield and it goes down to 635. It would be ripped apart by autocannon fire at that point though...

Edit: forgot basic subtraction for a minute.

Shake may head. Another eldar player trying to tell us their models are not undercosted or over powered the slightest.
another Learn to play thread.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/665854.page

Not in the slightest. The wraithknight is 100 points too cheap. Wind rider jetbikes should be 4+ armor. Scatterlasers should always be 5 points more expensive than shuriken cannons whenever chosen as an upgrade.

My point in this thread is that the revenant titan is that it isn't too cheap, it isn't too strong, you can't expect to counter it with tactics. Your average table gives it too much of an advantage for normal games.

If every game you played on a normal table involved wall spaced every 10" running accross the table that were 12" high it would make jump/jet infantry and barrage weapons seem overpowered and unfair to everyone else. The revenant pays for everything it has, it is just being used in games that take away all of the weaknesses built into it that balance it against other titan level walkers.

When I look at a unit, I look at the math. The math shows where this unit belongs and that is a play area where huge distances need to be traversed or fired over. It has pitifully short ranged guns, but only when compared to other giant walkers. It needs the speed to counter those units, but on a table where it can reach the other side in a single turn it's speed seems so infuriating because nothing on the table that isn't a flyer can catch it effectively.

Tldr; it isn't a problem where the revenant is too cheap for its abilities, it is just that the counters aren't available on your average game space.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
I'm sorry to say this but your fan created VDRs don't really hold much water during discussions about the comparative effectiveness of various units. They aren't official, most people don't know about/don't use them and they may be very biased. Maybe something you weigh heavily isn't as effective as you think it is or something you think isn't effective is in some unforeseen situations. Bottom line is that if you want to convince people that the Revenant titan isn't OP using rules you made up isn't a good way to do it.

I respect your opinion here, I can't expect to convince you via a discussion about the validity of my vdr. But what I will say is that every other superheavy and gargantuan creature that has been decried as too strong or too weak that I have put through this ruleset I've been able to give not only the point total that it would be to make it balanced, but also what exactly would need to be added to make it worth the points spent on it.

I've spent 9 months building and refining the v/mcdr, with public feedback and hundreds of hours ensuring the points held within it aren't skewed one way or another. I can tell you that ork transports are all overcosted by the transport capacity number, and that the killakans don't get any point discount for their cowardly grots rule. I can tell you that tyranid monstrous creatures actually pay upwards of 20 points for their instinctive behavior rule, and the synapse and shadows of the warp are a 20 point upgrade. Imperial armies don't pay for the tank rule on their vehicles where xenos do. I can tell you that battlefocus is only a 10 point upgrade for walkers, and that eldar can't make a vehicle with an armor value above 12 unless it has at least 21 hullpoints.

I can tell you all of this, and all I'm really doing is farting in the wind because you have no reason to believe me. If you don't agree with the points I presented earlier in the thread, how many points would you say each of those things are worth? Is 165 points too cheap for almost flyer level speed? Are the eldar holofield really not worth more than three times imperial voidshields? Consider the fact that the weapons used solely to drop the shields actually threaten the revenant where they cannot possibly hurt the warhound. How much more do you think the pulsars are worth? 185 per gun doesn't seem unreasonable considering the two are worth as much combined as some other superheavy vehicles.

Help prove me wrong, use the rules linked in my signature, show me where things are broken and I am always willing to fix it. I am getting close to sending it to games workshop to see what they think, I want it to be so tight they can't help but take a closer look and maybe stop doing things that break the game. (A boy can hope...)

I'm not calling into question the effort you put into your VDR or even if they are any good. It's just that I find it kind of odd that you refer to rules that basically you made up, however well, to back up your arguments. Testing new rules isn't easy. You need a lot of playtesting by qualified gamers (High level tournament experience preferably. Not the game designers playing a garage game [A dig at GW and not you, btw]) which isn't cheap or quick. WotC and FFG put a lot of effort to ensure that their rules are balanced taking into consideration countless possibilities that the designers themselves may not even have thought of. Even experienced professional designers can't think of everything that can go wrong with their rules. What chance do you, a highly devoted fan, have at making fair rulesets that cover dozens of units with thousands of possible builds and even more possible rules interactions?

I mean, even in this thread shows some weaknesses to your methods to your VDR. You weigh your points costs based on absolute power but as pointed out by other posters that's not all there is to the story. The Revenant Titan may seem fairly costed in a vacuum but when placed on a small table where it can move about as it pleases and utterly shut down the opposing army's long ranged firepower it's rules start to seem utterly ridiculous. If you want my full opinion on the matter it's not so much a problem with your VDR as it is with GW's "Just throw everything in" paradigm they have taken to recently. If it was just "Apoc only" yeah it's not really all that broken.

Maybe you should wok out a "Apocalypse Only" stamp to your VDR? Just a helpful suggestion.

I have something close to that in the weapons and upgrades section where certain options are available only superheavy level units and fortifications.

What I did with the v/mcdr is go through what the fanbase here has noticed about certain unit/weapons/wargear/rules and go into the ruleset with math in mind. If you look at my houserules in the proposed rules forum you will see the amount of work done there to balance out what games-workshop has done.

If you take those houserules, ignore only the changes to tyranid synapse (not shadows in the warp, those are legit) and rebuilt every monstrous creature and vehicle in the game with the rules I updated you would see a HUGE rebalancing of the game at large.

Basically the core 40k is the beta system, I figured out a basic mathematical system that (seemingly) works with the ruleset, and now I am doing what GW should be doing and working out an errata. I have absolute faith in the community to see where discrepancies lie, and I have the same faith in the math I've already done. Whenever they don't coincide I look for the reason why, which is where the thought for this thread originated.

I love 40k, I love math, I understand GW doesn't care enough to try and fix the system. I am willing to try.

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:
Revenant has blast as well. The double barrel turbolaser destructor is priced at 10 points less than the pulsars by forgeworld/GW. It should be 100 points more than that if you use the volcano cannon as the baseline for strD large blast weapons (it was the only one I haven't seen people complain about being overpowered)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yes, it can make up the range with jump jets. That's why they are of similar point values. If it didn't have the jump jets it would be 735 points. Drop the holofield and it goes down to 635. It would be ripped apart by autocannon fire at that point though...

Edit: forgot basic subtraction for a minute.

going by that, how much should a standard Ork Stompa cost?

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

My point in this thread is that the revenant titan is that it isn't too cheap, it isn't too strong, you can't expect to counter it with tactics. Your average table gives it too much of an advantage for normal games.

Dude, i've shown you in this thread that the table size doesn't affect the effectiveness of the revenant titan (the 'jump jet move on an 8 to 16 foot long table' thing).

Your assignment of points costs per item of wargear based on it's final points cost in the 'escalation' suppliment and subsequent relation to other unit's points costs belongs in the '40k proposed rules' forum; It should not be in the 'general discussion' forum guised as an inflammitory thread telling peole why an obviously op unit isn't op.

In respect to the title of this thread - You've beaten your way through the horse's corpse and now you're flogging the blood soaked ground beneath it.

Fair enough for spending time trying to rationalize the points assigned by GW to these units; but to me, thats like trying to rationalize a nations military presence around the world by examining how it's defence spending is assigned.

Compare the revenant to the Lord of Skulls and give me a breakdown.

Saying 'it's not broken because it was designed for bigger tables and apocalypse games' doesn't hold water anyway because GW then put it in the main game. That argument would work if it was only allowed in apocalypse, but it's not.

 Gunnvulcan wrote:
Compare the revenant to the Lord of Skulls and give me a breakdown.

Compare either to a Baneblade.

 Selym wrote:

 Gunnvulcan wrote:
Compare the revenant to the Lord of Skulls and give me a breakdown.

Compare either to a Baneblade.

Lord of skulls and revenant cost like 400 pts more, dont they?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

I'm not calling into question the effort you put into your VDR or even if they are any good. It's just that I find it kind of odd that you refer to rules that basically you made up, however well, to back up your arguments.

Duke: "I'm going to prove you're a cheater by beating you in a game of my own devising!"

Yami: "You wanna run that past me again?"

Stompa
Av 80 points
HP 300 points
Big shootas/twinlinked big shoots 22 points
Supa rokkits 60 points
Supa gattler 70 points
Scortcha 10 points
Mega choppa 123 points
Effigy 15 points
Transport 20 points
Total 720 points.

Lord of skulls
Av 70 points
Hullpoints 200 points
Gorestorm cannon 190 points
Hades gattling cannon 185 points
Daemon 10 points
Daemonic possession/ daemon forge 30 points
Fleet 5 points
It will not die 30 points
Rage 5 points
Great cleaver of khorne 135
Fuelled by rage 25 points
880 points

Spent the morning calculating the weapons on the lord of skulls, those are my findings. Both of these units spend 120 points for strength D in melee, and they both suffer from their weapon loadout being too generalised.

The lord of skulls is appropriate for the cost, it just spends too much on the primary ranged weapon systems. Dropping just the gore storm cannon would bring it to an agreeable price point. Or you could add a heavy stubber to give it the ability to charge something nearby like the knight does.

The stompa is indeed overcosted, you could give it two ork shields (void shields that don't come back) for 50 points to bring it in line with the cost.

The baneblade is perfectly costed, that is why those variants are the baseline stat and pointcost I used for all of the superheavy class weapon systems.

Issue here is that you've rated D melee above things like Battle Cannons, yet we know from the Knight pricing within Codex Imperial Knights that a two gun knight costs MORE than a D weapon single gun knight, not the other way around.

 Gunnvulcan wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 Gunnvulcan wrote:
Compare the revenant to the Lord of Skulls and give me a breakdown.

Compare either to a Baneblade.

Lord of skulls and revenant cost like 400 pts more, dont they?

Point-for-point efficiency can be done.

 Melcavuk wrote:
Issue here is that you've rated D melee above things like Battle Cannons, yet we know from the Knight pricing within Codex Imperial Knights that a two gun knight costs MORE than a D weapon single gun knight, not the other way around.

D weapon knights spend 90 points on that particular bonus. The avenger gattling cannon and paladin battle cannon cost 60 points a piece. The double gun imperial knight should be 345 points.

As a matter of fact, most people I've seen discussing the new versions of the imperial knight think the twin gun version is good, but a bit too expensive...

Lythrandire Biehrellian wrote:

 Melcavuk wrote:
Issue here is that you've rated D melee above things like Battle Cannons, yet we know from the Knight pricing within Codex Imperial Knights that a two gun knight costs MORE than a D weapon single gun knight, not the other way around.

D weapon knights spend 90 points on that particular bonus. The avenger gattling cannon and paladin battle cannon cost 60 points a piece. The double gun imperial knight should be 345 points.

As a matter of fact, most people I've seen discussing the new versions of the imperial knight think the twin gun version is good, but a bit too expensive...

I'd take that over the other variants at that cost any day.

It is a specialised variant, so nothing is wasted. Just like the melee only option gives you a more efficient use of points if all you want is a close combat heavy hitter storming down field.

Well, it Depends. The ability to shoot at all (possibly very well), versus just having one more attack?

But the extra attack is also strength D and if you are charging into cover you can use the big glove because it would be at I1 anyway. Then you get a shooting attack if you were going after a monster or vehicle.