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2015/10/14 17:22:20
Subject: New Fire warrior breacher rules. Pictures inside
Kanluwen wrote: Or, better yet, we discuss them while acknowledging the caveat that we don't have the "big picture" yet.
Why not just assume that when someone says "I think this looks like trash" we assume they mean it with the implied "from what I know currently" rather than making someone say it each time and then calling them out on it when they don't?
Why not just realize that maybe people need to stop putting out such definitive and absolute statements when we have absolutely no idea as to how the book is changing?
And it really isn't hard to post something to the effect of "As of right now, <insert previewed unit here> is not that impressive" instead of the crap that gets posted every.single.time. we get a White Dwarf preview of a unit from a forthcoming Codex.
I haven't heard any mention that the pulse blasters are replacing carbines, other than the FW/Breachers being a dual kit. So they may be a dual kit with 3 weapon options. Really I think the carbines look almost exactly like the blasters.
Eh. Only on the Fire Warriors, because the Fire Warrior Carbines don't have the top-mounted Markerlight.
Additionally, the only Fire Warriors that have been seen with Carbines was the Fire Warrior Strike Team.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/10/14 17:25:29
2015/10/14 17:38:30
Subject: New Fire warrior breacher rules. Pictures inside
Naw wrote: I can't see any reason to put a squad of firewarriors close to enemy. With AP3 and their range they can't kill anything important. Most of them will fold in opponent's turn with the survivors becoming insignificant. Can't come up with any good usage for them.
In short, they are crap.
"This unit is crap" before the Codex even comes out.
I need to see an entire codex before I can call some unit crappy? Their very short range shooting does not interest me in a game of 2+/++ deathstars.
Stay classy, Dakka!
Right. Even Rough Riders are a superior unit if you don't compare them to anything. However in this case we have a lot of comparison. These guys aren't even remotely interesting. Should they nerf rest of the units in the upcoming codex I'm sure the breachers would then shine.
For all you know, there will be a formation in the new Tau Empire book which allows Breacher Teams to dismount, fire, and remount if they destroy a unit during the Shooting Phase or claim an Objective or any number of potential scenarios ala "The Serpent's Brood" formation in the Harlequin book(minus the Hit & Run part).
Or maybe they will simply be a marginal unit?
2015/10/14 22:22:01
Subject: New Fire warrior breacher rules. Pictures inside
Yes, you need to see the entire codex, because if a devilfish suddenly costs 60 and can disembark troops after going 12" (highly unlikely event), then the breachers will be freaking terrifying.
If their wargear piece does anything else BUT improve the drone's effect, it might be stronger.
If markerlights can now extend ranges, again-you got a powerful combo.
If they can get pulse accelerator drones, they might change the unit entirely.
Ehtreals? they got changed every edition so far. maybe a new variation of them makes them good with breachers?
Fireblades? darkstrider? who knows if they improve and if they will mesh up with breachers (and don't tell me "but fireblades only help when you don't move-THIS MIGHT CHANGE)
Etc, etc, etc. there are many changes that can make or brake a unit, just like how the ghost's "fire team" rule that we don't yet know may make it's apparently unimpressive offensive abilities into something to be reckoned with.
Point is, with any codex its hard to know just how good a unit is before seeing what units it can interact with.
And considering tau are notorious for cross-unit interactions, wargear pileups and oddlot combinations, its even harder to tell with them just how useful things will be.
Too many different parts in the codex just might move in the right way that turns a unit, ANY unit, into the new powerhouse, or nerfs a current powerhouse into oblivion.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2015/10/14 23:09:04
Subject: New Fire warrior breacher rules. Pictures inside
Correct. That's if the rules as they are now are even the same as what they will be in the new codex. It could be they are just given temporary rules until the actual codex drops.
As far as the models go, I think they are all fairly decent. I plan on getting a ghost keel and giving it a smoothed cockpit instead of a head, like what I've done with my Riptides. The drone turret looks awesome, and I wish they would have made those into a kit.
Honestly, who wouldn't take a unit made entirely of drone turrets. I know they can't move, but they just look so fun.
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
2015/10/14 23:56:07
Subject: New Fire warrior breacher rules. Pictures inside
Naw wrote: I can't see any reason to put a squad of firewarriors close to enemy. With AP3 and their range they can't kill anything important. Most of them will fold in opponent's turn with the survivors becoming insignificant. Can't come up with any good usage for them.
In short, they are crap.
"This unit is crap" before the Codex even comes out.
I need to see an entire codex before I can call some unit crappy? Their very short range shooting does not interest me in a game of 2+/++ deathstars.
Stay classy, Dakka!
Right. Even Rough Riders are a superior unit if you don't compare them to anything. However in this case we have a lot of comparison. These guys aren't even remotely interesting. Should they nerf rest of the units in the upcoming codex I'm sure the breachers would then shine.
For all you know, there will be a formation in the new Tau Empire book which allows Breacher Teams to dismount, fire, and remount if they destroy a unit during the Shooting Phase or claim an Objective or any number of potential scenarios ala "The Serpent's Brood" formation in the Harlequin book(minus the Hit & Run part).
Or maybe they will simply be a marginal unit?
a) Not every army uses death-stars, and not all death-stars have 2+/2++ saves.
b) Rough Riders!? The difference between the two is that one unit has a means of getting close without dying (Devilfishes), the other does not. This comparison is downright stupid and you know it.
c) Nice prediction. Were you one of the people that said the 6th Edition Wraithknight sucked, that Centurion Devastators sucked, that 6th Edition Skyrays sucked, that Riptides sucked, that 6th Edition Fateweaver sucked, that 6th Edition/7th Edition Warp Spiders sucked or that Wyverns sucked?
Guess what all of those units I mentioned have in common - large sections of the community said they were crap when they first came out.
Now, I don't think Breachers will necessarily be on the level of any of those units, but if for example they get some kind of free Outflank/Deep Strike from formations they will be super-good. I feel like I'm a broken record here but as a Space Marine player I would kill to have Breachers inside of my Drop Pods.
Until we see the codex you can't conclusively say a unit is bad, end of story.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/14 23:56:18
2015/10/15 00:07:18
Subject: New Fire warrior breacher rules. Pictures inside
What I did with the Riptide was I used a spare cockpit from the bomber/fighter set to replace the head.
I'm planning to do the same with the ghostkeel instead of having the little nub sticking out of the torso.
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
2015/10/15 00:51:42
Subject: New Fire warrior breacher rules. Pictures inside
Caederes wrote: I feel like I'm a broken record here but as a Space Marine player I would kill to have Breachers inside of my Drop Pods.
Until we see the codex you can't conclusively say a unit is bad, end of story.
If Tau had access to drop pods I would imagine most Tau players would love them too. They aren't bad but what will make or break them is whether the new codex gives them an effective and point efficient means of delivering them where they need to be. Currently, the devilfish is not that. Personally, I'm reserving judgement on the breachers until we see the new codex. Formation bonuses, possible changes to units (like the devilfish), and markerlights, will have a huge impact on their competitive viability. Depending on the rest of the codex, these could be the new staple, the next vespids, or something in between. Only time will tell.
On a separate note, I do like the way the models look and will be picking up at least one unit for that reason alone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/15 00:53:20
2015/10/15 02:15:35
Subject: New Fire warrior breacher rules. Pictures inside
I really really dislike comments like "I wish I had X unit to put in my drop pods"
You can say that about any infantry unit. Everyone would love to put any infantry into drop pods for super cheap and deepstrike them anywhere without much fear of mishaps. Because the drop pod is pretty amazing for what it does.
I'm expecting an Imperial Knights supplement dedicated to GW's loyalist apologetics. Codex: White Knights "In the grim dark future, everything is fine."
"The argument is that we have to do this or we will, bit by bit,
lose everything that we hold dear, everything that keeps the business going. Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky."
-Tom Kirby
2015/10/15 18:23:54
Subject: New Fire warrior breacher rules. Pictures inside
Naw wrote: I can't see any reason to put a squad of firewarriors close to enemy. With AP3 and their range they can't kill anything important. Most of them will fold in opponent's turn with the survivors becoming insignificant. Can't come up with any good usage for them.
In short, they are crap.
"This unit is crap" before the Codex even comes out.
I need to see an entire codex before I can call some unit crappy? Their very short range shooting does not interest me in a game of 2+/++ deathstars.
Stay classy, Dakka!
Right. Even Rough Riders are a superior unit if you don't compare them to anything. However in this case we have a lot of comparison. These guys aren't even remotely interesting. Should they nerf rest of the units in the upcoming codex I'm sure the breachers would then shine.
For all you know, there will be a formation in the new Tau Empire book which allows Breacher Teams to dismount, fire, and remount if they destroy a unit during the Shooting Phase or claim an Objective or any number of potential scenarios ala "The Serpent's Brood" formation in the Harlequin book(minus the Hit & Run part).
Or maybe they will simply be a marginal unit?
a) Not every army uses death-stars, and not all death-stars have 2+/2++ saves.
Competitive ones do. This is like taking a power sword to a melee and trying to convince yourself that it is properly priced.
b) Rough Riders!? The difference between the two is that one unit has a means of getting close without dying (Devilfishes), the other does not. This comparison is downright stupid and you know it.
You are correct, I was joking. And at the same time I wasn't. In their own vacuum they probably rock. As for getting close to the enemy, why would I want that as Tau?? It is the range of their weapon that is putting me off.
c) Nice prediction. Were you one of the people that said the 6th Edition Wraithknight sucked, that Centurion Devastators sucked, that 6th Edition Skyrays sucked, that Riptides sucked, that 6th Edition Fateweaver sucked, that 6th Edition/7th Edition Warp Spiders sucked or that Wyverns sucked?
No, I wasn't. Thanks for trying.
Guess what all of those units I mentioned have in common - large sections of the community said they were crap when they first came out.
Now, I don't think Breachers will necessarily be on the level of any of those units, but if for example they get some kind of free Outflank/Deep Strike from formations they will be super-good. I feel like I'm a broken record here but as a Space Marine player I would kill to have Breachers inside of my Drop Pods.
Painful to address each sentence with a mobile device. I stress again, it is the range of their weapon that limits their usability. I suppose if they worked the way GW maybe thinks they work, I just might field them. Now on the other hand if they synergise well with the walking wall.. But again the real killer is their inability to melee and that you need to get right next to the enemy, most likely on their terms even, that I find them not to be worth my while.
Until we see the codex you can't conclusively say a unit is bad, end of story.
Misquote...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/10/15 18:25:01
2015/10/15 19:01:59
Subject: New Fire warrior breacher rules. Pictures inside
Naw wrote: I can't see any reason to put a squad of firewarriors close to enemy. With AP3 and their range they can't kill anything important. Most of them will fold in opponent's turn with the survivors becoming insignificant. Can't come up with any good usage for them.
In short, they are crap.
"This unit is crap" before the Codex even comes out.
I need to see an entire codex before I can call some unit crappy? Their very short range shooting does not interest me in a game of 2+/++ deathstars.
Stay classy, Dakka!
Right. Even Rough Riders are a superior unit if you don't compare them to anything. However in this case we have a lot of comparison. These guys aren't even remotely interesting. Should they nerf rest of the units in the upcoming codex I'm sure the breachers would then shine.
For all you know, there will be a formation in the new Tau Empire book which allows Breacher Teams to dismount, fire, and remount if they destroy a unit during the Shooting Phase or claim an Objective or any number of potential scenarios ala "The Serpent's Brood" formation in the Harlequin book(minus the Hit & Run part).
Or maybe they will simply be a marginal unit?
a) Not every army uses death-stars, and not all death-stars have 2+/2++ saves.
The vast majority of competitive deathstars have 2+ in the front for tanking hits from weapons just like these, or a 3++. A 2++ is usually from cover, which unless the markerlights change drastically, shouldn't be a big deal.
Mainly, the problem with these weapons is, as most people have stated, their targets and devilfish requirement. There aren't many targets in the game that can't kill these guys if they foot it, and the devilfish is overcosted.
If the devilfish changes dramatically for the better, I can see these guys being good. Not good enough that I'll buy them, but not bad!
b) Rough Riders!? The difference between the two is that one unit has a means of getting close without dying (Devilfishes), the other does not. This comparison is downright stupid and you know it.
I don't know how much of a joke it was. Rough Riders hit pretty hard, but can't reach the enemy safely to do it. Unless the devilfish changes, that will be the case for these guys as well.
Tau really lack the ability to do armor saturation, most of their tanks are just ok or flat out bad. It isn't like marines or DE where the field is filled with them, or Eldar where the WS is very sturdy and a great tank.
c) Nice prediction. Were you one of the people that said the 6th Edition Wraithknight sucked, that Centurion Devastators sucked, that 6th Edition Skyrays sucked, that Riptides sucked, that 6th Edition Fateweaver sucked, that 6th Edition/7th Edition Warp Spiders sucked or that Wyverns sucked?
I don't remember anyone saying any of these sucked as far as gameplay is concerned, save the skyray (was that good? I don't own one and nobody uses it).
A lot of people said the models sucked (Centurions especially) and that these models were bad for the game, but not many people though that Riptides launching huge blasts with AP 2 were bad, or fateweaver buffing absurdly was sucking. Warp Spiders were known to be good at release. I own a huge collection of them from 3rd edition and got really excited when they were spoiled.
Really, 40k isn't a game where units have secret uber powers that are found out later. Sometimes the opposite happens (demon summoning) but there aren't many hidden gems in this game. Plenty of false gold though.
Guess what all of those units I mentioned have in common - large sections of the community said they were crap when they first came out.
Large is a bit much. Nobody thought wraiths were bad or the WS was bad (save morgoth). 40k is a pretty simple game when it comes to determining power levels.
Now, I don't think Breachers will necessarily be on the level of any of those units, but if for example they get some kind of free Outflank/Deep Strike from formations they will be super-good. I feel like I'm a broken record here but as a Space Marine player I would kill to have Breachers inside of my Drop Pods.
Well, yes. With drop pods they would be amazing. The problem with Breachers is that the tau army as a whole doesn't operate at their ranges (currently) so they are going to be all by themselves in rapid fire range, or acting as a counter puncher. Their transport is, again currently, crap and has been for a while now. If the Tau had Waveserpents, Drop pods, Rhinos these things would be golden. Then again, if marines had all plasma guns on every solider as an option they'd be good too. So...its pointless to wishlist for stuff like that, or discuss it as if it makes a unit viable in any way.
Formations are, of course, a wildcard. My FLGS bans formations since they seem to be broken or awful, with not a lot of middle ground between them. But a formation granting +6" of range to all Tau weapons or some other rule would make these a lot better.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
