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You...you think chosen are a reason chaos marines are strong?
Oh my sweet summer child

Yeah, sorry, special weapon-toting Chosen look good on paper but are in practice unbelievably fragile for their high points cost.

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
S- Necrons
A- Also Necrons
B- ... Crons
C- Yes, you guessed it, Necrons
D- Do I need to?
F- Whatever those other models GW and FW make.

Wow, someone has been taken to town a few times by necrons lol.

Orks - Can build Klaw-Bike spam. Fast, relatively tough, Jinking, relatively cheap models, with enough High Strength claws to land hits. Requires crazy FOC spam, but can be done with multiple detachments.

You put orks in the middle tier but your own definition of low middle tier

Lower Middle Tier

Any codex capable of a strong mono-build, but with common hard counters. Codices with glaring weakness, such as low mobility, short range, poor damage output, excessive frailty

Is the definition of orks. The only good build Orks have that has a chance at tournies is the Bike spam and has a very common hard counter, its called ignores cover. Anything that can ignore cover and has at least AP4 eats Bikers. Furthermore the only real way to field a bike spam list is to use the FW model that allows you to take BIkers as troops. and A lot of events outright ban Forgeworld. Lastly, Ork bikers are great, except that your forgetting they are still just boyz, you survive that 1st round of combat and those T5 boyz on bikes are only S3.

as far as glaring weaknesses? Short range, yup 18 inches on those Dakka Gunz, Poor dmg output? yup BS2 means even 3TL shots are only 1-2 hits per gun at most and thats at S5. Excessive frailty? yeah they have that as well, if your going to spam bikers in MSU then if you lose 1-2 bikes they take a leadership check and start killing themselves when they fail there LD7 checks.

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yeah, sorry, special weapon-toting Chosen look good on paper but are in practice unbelievably fragile for their high points cost.

Not to mention that Hellturkies have been massively nerfed and are quite easy to deny their now limited fire arc...
And that Oblits are ultra expensive and suffer from a lack of powerful weapon weapons, nor can they use the same weapon twice in a row...


Blood Angels are definitely above Chaos Marines due to Grav + Pods.

Oh, and what about Daemons? Mind you, if someone thinks Chaos Marines are only slightly below 'Crons/Vanilla Marines/Eldar, then they probably think that Daemons are auto-win?!

Experiment 626 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
Yeah, sorry, special weapon-toting Chosen look good on paper but are in practice unbelievably fragile for their high points cost.

Not to mention that Hellturkies have been massively nerfed and are quite easy to deny their now limited fire arc...
And that Oblits are ultra expensive and suffer from a lack of powerful weapon weapons, nor can they use the same weapon twice in a row...


Blood Angels are definitely above Chaos Marines due to Grav + Pods.

Oh, and what about Daemons? Mind you, if someone thinks Chaos Marines are only slightly below 'Crons/Vanilla Marines/Eldar, then they probably think that Daemons are auto-win?!

I don't think that's enough to put BA above CSM. BA are bad at pod lists and only get grav guns, not grav cannons.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Upper Middle Teir

Any codex capable of a strong mono-build. Most non-top teir lists are incapable of fielding entire armies of units that are effective regardless of T / AV. Most armies aren't able to "nearly" guarantee a save for every unit with Jink, RP, or Invuls. No GLARING weaknesses, other than not being Top-Teir.

Chaos Marines - Although suffering from not being Vanilla, are mid-teir thanks to monobuild Helldrake AP 3 "template spam", coupled with Oblits, Chosen, Spawn and a Fast Moving choppy HQ. This style of list can deny cover / MEQ saves, though still suffers from RP and Invuls. It also suffers against Mono-Knights, as it has trouble overcoming the Knights AV / Invul strength. Lowest mobility of MEQ, but has tools to deal with most opposing armies.

Lolwut.

CSM cannot even put together a "mildly threatening" build, never mind being mid-tier.

 Selym wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Upper Middle Teir

Any codex capable of a strong mono-build. Most non-top teir lists are incapable of fielding entire armies of units that are effective regardless of T / AV. Most armies aren't able to "nearly" guarantee a save for every unit with Jink, RP, or Invuls. No GLARING weaknesses, other than not being Top-Teir.

Chaos Marines - Although suffering from not being Vanilla, are mid-teir thanks to monobuild Helldrake AP 3 "template spam", coupled with Oblits, Chosen, Spawn and a Fast Moving choppy HQ. This style of list can deny cover / MEQ saves, though still suffers from RP and Invuls. It also suffers against Mono-Knights, as it has trouble overcoming the Knights AV / Invul strength. Lowest mobility of MEQ, but has tools to deal with most opposing armies.

Lolwut.

CSM cannot even put together a "mildly threatening" build, never mind being mid-tier.

Not strictly true. CSM are certainly more counter meta than they were six months ago. DA in particular don't much like them.

You mean that bike spam thingy right? Possibly. But against anything else CSM is just feeble.

 Selym wrote:
You mean that bike spam thingy right? Possibly. But against anything else CSM is just feeble.

Because BA are basically forced to bring bikes to bring grav in a list, CSM are a tough match up. Plus, Plague marines in cover are surprisingly resilient to grav. At least grav guns.

AwayFromLife wrote:
Out of curiosity, if a "Tier List" were to be made for the current 40k armies, where would you place them? Not counting Allies, as that just adds another level to it.

S-Tier
Eldar

A-Tier
Necrons, Dark Angels, Space Marines, Daemons, Imperial Knights

B-Tier
Imperial Guard, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Skitarii, Tau, Tyranids

C-Tier
Orks, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Cult Mechanicus

D-Tier
CSM, Blood Angels

Agree/Disagree?

I completely disagree with most of this, have you ever played the game or looked at tournament results :\
Blood angels are not the worst army in the game at all. Sure the normal marines have a shinier codex but they are no way worse then sisters or orks, and cult mechanicus at ork tier are you mad.

I would be really interested in seeing the reasoning for why necrons are a tier above Daemons.

There's really nothing in the tournament circuit that would lend credence to that assertion.

"Blood angels are not the worst army in the game at all."

Really? Please go on.

"but they are no way worse then sisters or orks"

They are absolutely inferior to both of those lists. People are putting way too much stock in drop pods and regular grav guns. People forget that the BA have a laughable chapter tactic and an overall army philosophy that totally fails in 7th ed in every conceivable way.

 oldzoggy wrote:

AwayFromLife wrote:
Out of curiosity, if a "Tier List" were to be made for the current 40k armies, where would you place them? Not counting Allies, as that just adds another level to it.

S-Tier
Eldar

A-Tier
Necrons, Dark Angels, Space Marines, Daemons, Imperial Knights

B-Tier
Imperial Guard, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Skitarii, Tau, Tyranids

C-Tier
Orks, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Cult Mechanicus

D-Tier
CSM, Blood Angels

Agree/Disagree?

I completely disagree with most of this, have you ever played the game or looked at tournament results :\
Blood angels are not the worst army in the game at all. Sure the normal marines have a shinier codex but they are no way worse then sisters or orks, and cult mechanicus at ork tier are you mad.

Yes, we have seen those results. Blood Angels are taken because it's easy access to Drop Pods. As an army itself, they're not actually used. It's called Codex: Taxi for a reason.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:

AwayFromLife wrote:
Out of curiosity, if a "Tier List" were to be made for the current 40k armies, where would you place them? Not counting Allies, as that just adds another level to it.

S-Tier
Eldar

A-Tier
Necrons, Dark Angels, Space Marines, Daemons, Imperial Knights

B-Tier
Imperial Guard, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Skitarii, Tau, Tyranids

C-Tier
Orks, Dark Eldar, Sisters of Battle, Cult Mechanicus

D-Tier
CSM, Blood Angels

Agree/Disagree?

I completely disagree with most of this, have you ever played the game or looked at tournament results :\
Blood angels are not the worst army in the game at all. Sure the normal marines have a shinier codex but they are no way worse then sisters or orks, and cult mechanicus at ork tier are you mad.

Yes, we have seen those results. Blood Angels are taken because it's easy access to Drop Pods. As an army itself, they're not actually used. It's called Codex: Taxi for a reason.

I thought that was the DEldar's schtick.

Well, WWP and Raiders are pretty nice in that regard...

So, one is Codex: Taxi, and the other is Codex: Dark Taxi. You know, to differentiate them.

 gmaleron wrote:
Mechanicum and Skitarii need to be in the Second best tier, they are insanely strong and powerful with units that are very flexible when it comes to targets they can deal with.

There is one decent power build in the form of war convocation, and one that relies on marine spam pods for uber vanguard strike. Without these things they are a slow version of dark eldar, they can dish it out but can't take it.

I think tau could be A teir by abusing the new Hunter Contingent formation, and Squads of riptides ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

YangusTheGreat wrote:
I think tau could be A teir by abusing the new Hunter Contingent formation, and Squads of riptides ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

The ability to effectively "attach" a buffmander to any unit simply by saying you're "shooting" with him at their target is a lot of utility. It certainly hurts death star lists, and the ability for Fire Team units (Crisis, Broadside(?), Riptide, Hammerhead/Skyray) to activate their +1 BS by shooting with another unit and not being full size is quite potent.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well, WWP and Raiders are pretty nice in that regard...

So, one is Codex: Taxi, and the other is Codex: Dark Taxi. You know, to differentiate them.

I call them Uber Angels

AdMech factions need to be higher, they're insanely powerful with weapons that can take on all comers. Grav cannons that immobilize on sixes, army wide benefits that surpass Space Marine Chapter Tactics, Assault 3 Plasma Guns, you name it. They have it all. Even their basic troops are atrocious with special abilities. Plus army-wide Relentless formations and tons of Scouts. They can wreck three tanks and a 2+ cover saving PLUS INVISIBLE Be'lakor first turn easily.

 Hawkeye888 wrote:

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
S- Necrons
A- Also Necrons
B- ... Crons
C- Yes, you guessed it, Necrons
D- Do I need to?
F- Whatever those other models GW and FW make.

Wow, someone has been taken to town a few times by necrons lol.

I am the Necrons. Lol.
Honestly i think we can all agree that SoB are not the best.

You missed Z-Tier: Imperial Guard

I'd take IG over Blood Angels anyday.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'd take IG over Blood Angels anyday.

I'd take both of those over CSM

Actually I think CSM might be better than both BA and IG.

Having played as both IG and CSM in 7E, the CSM are by far worse off. You think lasguns are bad? Becoming a Daemon Prince is a liability.

I'd take zombie cultists over BA tac marines for sure.

They waddle over the board either getting ignored, or getting mowed down. If tactical marines are worse than that, we're living in some strange bass ackwards universe concocted by a raving madman.

Wait...

master of ordinance wrote:You missed Z-Tier: Imperial Guard

BlaxicanX wrote:I'd take IG over Blood Angels anyday.

Selym wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
I'd take IG over Blood Angels anyday.

I'd take both of those over CSM

Oppression Olympics: 40k Edition