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notredameguy10 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Ion seems especially nice with the +1 BS boost, mitigates the somewhat problematic 3 shots but hitting on 4+.

In the Riptide Wing, where I'm bringing 3 separate ones, do you think it's better to mix/match the weapons or stick with one type? And if I mixed them, which version should get 2?

Personally, I would go with 2 IA and 1 HBC. 2 will have Target locks on them any who so it doesn't matter if you mix and match.

Well you don't need Target Locks since the Riptide Wing formation is 3 separate units, not one unit of 3.

Requizen wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Ion seems especially nice with the +1 BS boost, mitigates the somewhat problematic 3 shots but hitting on 4+.

In the Riptide Wing, where I'm bringing 3 separate ones, do you think it's better to mix/match the weapons or stick with one type? And if I mixed them, which version should get 2?

Personally, I would go with 2 IA and 1 HBC. 2 will have Target locks on them any who so it doesn't matter if you mix and match.

Well you don't need Target Locks since the Riptide Wing formation is 3 separate units, not one unit of 3.

Oh my bad. for some reason I had read it as 1 squad of 3 lol! Either way, I would take 2 IA with EWO and 1 HBC with ATS. That way I have 2 AP 2 Large Blasts that can use intercepter and 1 that I can dedicate to MC or Tank Hunting.

Yea i would divvy them up and have 1 HBC. Personally, i'd go 2 HBC 1 IA but thats because in my experience the HBC does so much more damage when it actually passes the nova.

However, coupled with Crons, you probably want the AP2 over the Rending. Crons dont usually have a problem with wounding/glancing ANYTHING but they do have a problem with good armor saves. IA would deal with that without Nova risks or demanding 6s to wound - just dont fail that Gets Hot! test lol

Theres also lack of Markerlight support to consider, since if youre bringing the Riptide Wing youre already dedicating ~600-700pts to a Tau detachment. If you want ML support, you either need a Drone Net as well (and im fuzzy on the rules for allied formations, i THINK youre still restricted to 1 non-main force faction detachment but i could be wrong) which is another ~224pts, or an actual CAD for Pathfinder access, which is even more expensive due to the Firewarrior and Commander tax.

IAs utilizing the Blast typically dont completely miss an attack - they may hit the wrong unit, but they still hit something. HBCs dont have that luxury, a miss for them is a lost shot period with no risk of accidental nearby unit damage.

Are the Drones worth it for the Riptide? I could see having 2 extra 4++ wounds as a nice boost, but 25 points per Drone seems pretty steep.

Requizen wrote:
Are the Drones worth it for the Riptide? I could see having 2 extra 4++ wounds as a nice boost, but 25 points per Drone seems pretty steep.

No not worth it all. Losing 1 drone requires a moral check and the possibility of your 200 Point model falling back

No, stay away from them.

Theyre 25pts each, which is 2x +1 the cost of normal Drones for no real benefit (they still die to Bolter spam just as easy, even though theyre T6)
When ANY drone dies, the Riptide is forced to leadership test. Considering they offer very little protection/dakka for the cost, the very easy free LD test for your opponent to force is too risky.

Ive literally never taken them. Ever. Too expensive for a BS2 MP that happens to have a Shield Gen even though he will never use it.
Its why i hate Shield Drones to begin with. All drones die just as fast regardless of toughness/armor/shields because all you gotta do is hit them with some anti-troop weapon and they die - exposing the suit behind them to the big guns anyway.

Only reason they arent bad on Ovesa (the named character riptide for Farsight users) is because he can use his own armor on the anti-troop crap and LoS the AP2 stuff, so they actually get used right. Normal riptides cant do that, and you cant put Ovesa in the Riptide Wing either.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
No, stay away from them.

Theyre 25pts each, which is 2x +1 the cost of normal Drones for no real benefit (they still die to Bolter spam just as easy, even though theyre T6)
When ANY drone dies, the Riptide is forced to leadership test. Considering they offer very little protection/dakka for the cost, the very easy free LD test for your opponent to force is too risky.

Ive literally never taken them. Ever. Too expensive for a BS2 MP that happens to have a Shield Gen even though he will never use it.
Its why i hate Shield Drones to begin with. All drones die just as fast regardless of toughness/armor/shields because all you gotta do is hit them with some anti-troop weapon and they die - exposing the suit behind them to the big guns anyway.

Only reason they arent bad on Ovesa (the named character riptide for Farsight users) is because he can use his own armor on the anti-troop crap and LoS the AP2 stuff, so they actually get used right. Normal riptides cant do that, and you cant put Ovesa in the Riptide Wing either.

Agreed. Honestly, I do not see why drones count toward leadership tests. I was sure in this new codex they would finally make drones not count toward squad size/moral tests....

So something I'm thinking under the ITC format (3 source format) is the idea of just taking 3 formations instead of any "normal" detachments. Any guesses which ones they are? You're a genius if you said:

Optimized Stealth Cadre
Drone Network
Riptide Wing

At 1850, you can have a maxed out OSC, markerlights to taste/missile drones if you think you have enough ML, and you can have not one, but FIVE Riptides. Nothing I would bring to any sort of friendly game, but as a list that I might take to a GT, it may fit the bill. I just don't think I want to use 5 Riptides.....maybe I just try out some Taudar with an allied OSC. Would definitely be nasty

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Agreed.

Its listed as a Special Rule to get the army wide +1BS - Special Rules of the same exact rule do not stack. Only way you can stack effects is if they are NOT the same rule, but have the same effect (Fire Team + Coordinated Firepower for example giving +2BS together).

Drone Net +1BS is the same rule for both formations. Not saying its a bad idea to take 2 minimal formations rather than 4x8 man units, since then you can divvy up your MLs better and suffer less from high RoF AP4 guns/jink forces. In fact, i dont see any reason to bring more than 4x4 unless you simply cant field it twice and just wanna field as much as you can (4x6 for instance)
You'd have to mark the units to which formation to keep the rule going, since theyre "different formations" but now you have a backup in case one formation gets whooped you still have +1BS.

If it was listed strictly as "This formation adds +1BS to all drones in your army" with no special rule bold print or restrictions, then it would stack. But it doesnt list it that way.

No need to take multiple formations just add more min drone squads to the formation since it is listed as "4 or more units".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Anyone? more like everyone.
The drone net is one of is not THE most talked about auxiliary in the dawn blade contingent. being only topped by the absurdity that is the firestorm (who is bound to get nerfed by ITC too)

The real kicker, is that RAW, the BS boost should stack if you get multiple drone formations. RAI its nonsense, but RAW it does.

The sheer power of it, even with mere gun drone spam, cannot be denied. they become far superior fire warriors. (at least compared to carbine warriors.)

(its slightly over 250 for a minimal setup though. and you defiantly want more than minimal setting-because drone network gun drones are amazing.)

You mean the Piranha firestream? Seekers and drone drops every round, this plus the drone formation would get crazy fast.

Hi Folks. Conundrum time.

Hunter Contingent Vs. Drone net formation (4 squads) (I'm considering trying to fit both or how best to use the latter at the expense of the former).

The way I see it, my troubles are;
- 1500pts
- I want to field 2 Riptides, a Stormsurge, Ghostkeel
- I already have to field minimum 2 drone squads (or equivalent point spends) in Auxiliary formation + Fast attack option for the Hunter Cadre
- The commander exists and with the above choices, is very likely to be a Mark'o, reducing the benefit of BS+1 markerlights (set modifiers trump all?)
- Whilst jinking drones, intercepting markerlights is good.. it is gimmicky, with the real benefit being +1BS on all drones.

My only other options are to either A) change the above choices, likely the 4 big suit choices or B) field a similar list in a different way. Perhaps CAD with crisis suit as troops (can that still be done) and filler fireblade? But then is loosing shared marerklights plus unit x3 +1bs worth it?

Further thoughts, fielding things like a shield on a Stormsurge.. that 4++, when I'm trying to counter a T6 8W 3+ model, it really shines. Also a VT on the Stormsurge, as either Str10 pies vs. FMC ooor thoses destroyer missiles are true anti-air.

You want to field a stormsurge, 2 tides, and a ghostkeel at 1500pts?
Those units need proper support to be of real use. Those 4 models alone would be ~1000pts, leaving you VERY little else to work with.

Also fielding a GMC in a game that small is seriously going to earn you enemies lol

As for the Mark'O and Drone net, the Drones would be BS5 because Multipliers > Modifiers > Set Values. This is why any +1BS we get doesnt affect Snapfires unless it specifically says it does, since Snapfire is a Set value and it comes last.

Personally I think 1500pts is how the game should be played.

I think my gaming buddies will be fine, they bring all sorts. But I guess I will let you know!

O'vesa's drones are also pretty handy for establishing a majority toughness of 6 when he joins a unit of 3 or less members.

Ok this is just wrong....

I was trying to devise a list using Farsight (not a bomb) without riptides. 2k points. Somehow, even though i have 2 ghostkeels in there, i ended up exactly 190pts shy of 2k.

The price of a riptide. And i had an elite slot open.

Just cant get away from riptides LOL

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Yea i would divvy them up and have 1 HBC. Personally, i'd go 2 HBC 1 IA but thats because in my experience the HBC does so much more damage when it actually passes the nova.

However, coupled with Crons, you probably want the AP2 over the Rending. Crons dont usually have a problem with wounding/glancing ANYTHING but they do have a problem with good armor saves. IA would deal with that without Nova risks or demanding 6s to wound - just dont fail that Gets Hot! test lol

Theres also lack of Markerlight support to consider, since if youre bringing the Riptide Wing youre already dedicating ~600-700pts to a Tau detachment. If you want ML support, you either need a Drone Net as well (and im fuzzy on the rules for allied formations, i THINK youre still restricted to 1 non-main force faction detachment but i could be wrong) which is another ~224pts, or an actual CAD for Pathfinder access, which is even more expensive due to the Firewarrior and Commander tax.

IAs utilizing the Blast typically dont completely miss an attack - they may hit the wrong unit, but they still hit something. HBCs dont have that luxury, a miss for them is a lost shot period with no risk of accidental nearby unit damage.

I've had this experience with the HBC as well, and I will use two HBCs and one IA when I use the Riptide Wing. But it just depends on the rest of your army. I plan on using a small CAD with a Mark'O, two min squads of Strikers, two Stormsurges with EWO and Shields, then a Riptide wing with EW and a Void Shield Gen.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

... I plan on using a small CAD with a Mark'O, two min squads of Strikers, two Stormsurges with EWO and Shields, then a Riptide wing with EW and a Void Shield Gen.

Gross, i would hate to be your friends =P

Ive used my stormsurge once so far because i refuse to bring it in 2k or less games unless my opponent wants a deathwish lol.

Unless its eldar, Tau can basically do whatever the hell they want and still win. Ignore vespid, obviously.

I use the Coldstar commander, Piranhas, Hammerheads, and heavy firewarrior squads commonly. I still win. In fact the only formation i dont feel like a total dick bringing is the Retaliation Cadre, because it really only gives me additional crisis suit squads and a commander without taking more firewarriors (if i want more than 3 elites, i dont want more than 2-3 firewarrior units lol). Also rarely ever use both of my riptides, and i still havent even finished making my 3rd one for big games.

Theres more to this game than tabling your opponent by turn3. My friends lose 2/3 of the games we play, but they still like facing my Tau because i dont use all the flavor tactics and cheese. Yeah i pull dick moves but theyre minor stuff like a BS5 12man Drone squad, not multiple stormsurges lol

Vineheart - I'm glad for you. Winning must be nice - but you must appreciate anecdotal examples are near useless. And then providing sweeping statements based on that may be a bit misleading?

Perhaps you've yet to meet a worthy opponent, using a reasonably designed army.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:

... I plan on using a small CAD with a Mark'O, two min squads of Strikers, two Stormsurges with EWO and Shields, then a Riptide wing with EW and a Void Shield Gen.

Gross, i would hate to be your friends =P

That's only my tournament list, I don't even use Broadsides or Stormsurges with my friends because they outright refuse to play against them. I have recieved so much gak since this codex came out that I'm trying to find another club.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

... I have recieved so much gak since this codex came out that I'm trying to find another club.

Aye, that is a shame. But people generally freak out when an army they don't play becomes better then the one they do. A few of my friends have put 40k aside as soon as Tau dropped because of the way the power levels seem to be being altered too.

That said, I also play Eldar, and they have alot of good stuff, but I don't "simply win cause Eldar" as most people say. I have alot of good players in my meta, and constantly have very close games. Eldar, Tau, Crons.. all great, not all unbeatable in all aspects of the game.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:

... I have recieved so much gak since this codex came out that I'm trying to find another club.

Aye, that is a shame. But people generally freak out when an army they don't play becomes better then the one they do. A few of my friends have put 40k aside as soon as Tau dropped because of the way the power levels seem to be being altered too.

That said, I also play Eldar, and they have alot of good stuff, but I don't "simply win cause Eldar" as most people say. I have alot of good players in my meta, and constantly have very close games. Eldar, Tau, Crons.. all great, not all unbeatable in all aspects of the game.

The main issue I have with Tau codex vs Eldar codex is the internal balance. Even though elder have a few way to good units for the cost (Wraithknight, scat bikes, etc), they have very good internal balance. You can basically take any unit in the codex, except maybe shinning spears, and make a great, competitive army. Tau, on the other hand, have less units to begin with, and then you have to throw out vespids, kroot, kroot hound, krootox rider, devilfish, and both flyers as just not that great. That leaves most Tau armies having extremely similar builds if they want to be competitive: i.e Riptides, stormsurges, broadsides and ghostkeels

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:

... I have recieved so much gak since this codex came out that I'm trying to find another club.

Aye, that is a shame. But people generally freak out when an army they don't play becomes better then the one they do. A few of my friends have put 40k aside as soon as Tau dropped because of the way the power levels seem to be being altered too.

That said, I also play Eldar, and they have alot of good stuff, but I don't "simply win cause Eldar" as most people say. I have alot of good players in my meta, and constantly have very close games. Eldar, Tau, Crons.. all great, not all unbeatable in all aspects of the game.

The main issue I have with Tau codex vs Eldar codex is the internal balance. Even though elder have a few way to good units for the cost (Wraithknight, scat bikes, etc), they have very good internal balance. You can basically take any unit in the codex, except maybe shinning spears, and make a great, competitive army. Tau, on the other hand, have less units to begin with, and then you have to throw out vespids, kroot, kroot hound, krootox rider, devilfish, and both flyers as just not that great. That leaves most Tau armies having extremely similar builds if they want to be competitive: i.e Riptides, stormsurges, broadsides and ghostkeels

How is this any different from Eldar? Most competitive Eldar builds include at least one Farseer, many scatter bikes, and at least one Wraithknight.

"Grass is greener ... "

SJ

DirtyDeeds wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:

... I have recieved so much gak since this codex came out that I'm trying to find another club.

Aye, that is a shame. But people generally freak out when an army they don't play becomes better then the one they do. A few of my friends have put 40k aside as soon as Tau dropped because of the way the power levels seem to be being altered too.

That said, I also play Eldar, and they have alot of good stuff, but I don't "simply win cause Eldar" as most people say. I have alot of good players in my meta, and constantly have very close games. Eldar, Tau, Crons.. all great, not all unbeatable in all aspects of the game.

The main issue I have with Tau codex vs Eldar codex is the internal balance. Even though elder have a few way to good units for the cost (Wraithknight, scat bikes, etc), they have very good internal balance. You can basically take any unit in the codex, except maybe shinning spears, and make a great, competitive army. Tau, on the other hand, have less units to begin with, and then you have to throw out vespids, kroot, kroot hound, krootox rider, devilfish, and both flyers as just not that great. That leaves most Tau armies having extremely similar builds if they want to be competitive: i.e Riptides, stormsurges, broadsides and ghostkeels

How is this any different from Eldar? Most competitive Eldar builds include at least one Farseer, many scatter bikes, and at least one Wraithknight.

Competitive in terms of winning a tournament? then yes.

Competitive in terms of being able to win at your local club? then no.

An Eldar list with no wraithknights, scatter bikes, wave serpents, or wraithguard vs a tau list with no stormsurges, riptides, broadsides, or ghost keel.

Elder still have swooping hawks, war walkers, warp spiders, and fire dragons. All of which are still amazing.

My point is, you can still make great elder lists even ignoring the few OP units. Tau cannot which i do not like.

notredameguy10 wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:

... I have recieved so much gak since this codex came out that I'm trying to find another club.

Aye, that is a shame. But people generally freak out when an army they don't play becomes better then the one they do. A few of my friends have put 40k aside as soon as Tau dropped because of the way the power levels seem to be being altered too.

That said, I also play Eldar, and they have alot of good stuff, but I don't "simply win cause Eldar" as most people say. I have alot of good players in my meta, and constantly have very close games. Eldar, Tau, Crons.. all great, not all unbeatable in all aspects of the game.

The main issue I have with Tau codex vs Eldar codex is the internal balance. Even though elder have a few way to good units for the cost (Wraithknight, scat bikes, etc), they have very good internal balance. You can basically take any unit in the codex, except maybe shinning spears, and make a great, competitive army. Tau, on the other hand, have less units to begin with, and then you have to throw out vespids, kroot, kroot hound, krootox rider, devilfish, and both flyers as just not that great. That leaves most Tau armies having extremely similar builds if they want to be competitive: i.e Riptides, stormsurges, broadsides and ghostkeels

How is this any different from Eldar? Most competitive Eldar builds include at least one Farseer, many scatter bikes, and at least one Wraithknight.

Competitive in terms of winning a tournament? then yes.

Competitive in terms of being able to win at your local club? then no.

An Eldar list with no wraithknights, scatter bikes, wave serpents, or wraithguard vs a tau list with no stormsurges, riptides, broadsides, or ghost keel.

Elder still have swooping hawks, war walkers, warp spiders, and fire dragons. All of which are still amazing.

My point is, you can still make great elder lists even ignoring the few OP units. Tau cannot which i do not like.

That's because we have units; i.e. the battlesuit, that can fill very different roles based upon weapon selection, the Eldar do not have such luxury. I do agree that a Tau list will be monochromatic without our MCs, but you can still build an effective list out of Battlesuits and our new Breachers.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

DirtyDeeds wrote:

... I have recieved so much gak since this codex came out that I'm trying to find another club.

Aye, that is a shame. But people generally freak out when an army they don't play becomes better then the one they do. A few of my friends have put 40k aside as soon as Tau dropped because of the way the power levels seem to be being altered too.

That said, I also play Eldar, and they have alot of good stuff, but I don't "simply win cause Eldar" as most people say. I have alot of good players in my meta, and constantly have very close games. Eldar, Tau, Crons.. all great, not all unbeatable in all aspects of the game.

The main issue I have with Tau codex vs Eldar codex is the internal balance. Even though elder have a few way to good units for the cost (Wraithknight, scat bikes, etc), they have very good internal balance. You can basically take any unit in the codex, except maybe shinning spears, and make a great, competitive army. Tau, on the other hand, have less units to begin with, and then you have to throw out vespids, kroot, kroot hound, krootox rider, devilfish, and both flyers as just not that great. That leaves most Tau armies having extremely similar builds if they want to be competitive: i.e Riptides, stormsurges, broadsides and ghostkeels

How is this any different from Eldar? Most competitive Eldar builds include at least one Farseer, many scatter bikes, and at least one Wraithknight.

Competitive in terms of winning a tournament? then yes.

Competitive in terms of being able to win at your local club? then no.

An Eldar list with no wraithknights, scatter bikes, wave serpents, or wraithguard vs a tau list with no stormsurges, riptides, broadsides, or ghost keel.

Elder still have swooping hawks, war walkers, warp spiders, and fire dragons. All of which are still amazing.

My point is, you can still make great elder lists even ignoring the few OP units. Tau cannot which i do not like.

That's because we have units; i.e. the battlesuit, that can fill very different roles based upon weapon selection, the Eldar do not have such luxury. I do agree that a Tau list will be monochromatic without our MCs, but you can still build an effective list out of Battlesuits and our new Breachers.

I wasn't really meaning we wouldn't have any way at all of making a good list, I meant that the way our codex is, there is very little room for variety to make a semi-competative list compared to some other armies. I was really hoping they would have buffed some of our worse units to make them actually viable (which I do not understand why they wouldn't... as making better internal balance by buffing weak units means more of those units will sell)

Sorry to derail, but for that Riptide Wing that I was thinking of going, would this be good?

Riptide (Ion Accelerator, Stimulant Injector, Early Warning Override)
Riptide (Ion Accelerator, Stimulant Injector, Early Warning Override)
Riptide (Heavy Burst Cannon, Stimulant Injector, Velocity Tracker)

I figure having the blast Interceptors and 12 shots at Flyers is a good combo. I like the Stimulant Injectors, but they're pretty expensive, maybe not on all of them?

Requizen wrote:
Sorry to derail, but for that Riptide Wing that I was thinking of going, would this be good?

Riptide (Ion Accelerator, Stimulant Injector, Early Warning Override)
Riptide (Ion Accelerator, Stimulant Injector, Early Warning Override)
Riptide (Heavy Burst Cannon, Stimulant Injector, Velocity Tracker)

I figure having the blast Interceptors and 12 shots at Flyers is a good combo. I like the Stimulant Injectors, but they're pretty expensive, maybe not on all of them?

Few things.

1.) You really want a EWO along with the VT. That way you can shoot the flyer the turn it comes on the board.
2.) In a riptide wing, stimulant injectors have less value as one of the main reasons to take it is due to failed nova reactor rolls, which the riptide wing can reroll
3.) Advanced Targeting System is great with HBC as rolls of 6 are both precision shots and rending. This way you can pick out specific models in a squad (like special weapons or IC) and ignore their armor save, all for 3 points.

Stims on an HBC even in the formation are very, very crucial. HBC riptides take a lot more damage than Iontides both because of the mass of Gets Hot, required Nova tests, but also because they sit closer than Iontides.

The stims on the Iontides could be dropped to shave points, since its not AS crucial, but if you arent stressed for points i'd keep them. I usually dont even fill that 2nd support slot if i opt out of stims because nothing else really works (cant precision shot a blast and its alone so no Targetlock requirement)

It might not be as bad in the Riptide wing, but ive ran the ECPA Bursttide a few times and he still takes a ton of self-inflicted damage. Stims are so mandatory on him imo.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Stims on an HBC even in the formation are very, very crucial. HBC riptides take a lot more damage than Iontides both because of the mass of Gets Hot, required Nova tests, but also because they sit closer than Iontides.

The stims on the Iontides could be dropped to shave points, since its not AS crucial, but if you arent stressed for points i'd keep them. I usually dont even fill that 2nd support slot if i opt out of stims because nothing else really works (cant precision shot a blast and its alone so no Targetlock requirement)

It might not be as bad in the Riptide wing, but ive ran the ECPA Bursttide a few times and he still takes a ton of self-inflicted damage. Stims are so mandatory on him imo.

Or you can boost your BS to 6 which allows you to reroll 1's to hit.

Never underestimate the HBC while Nova Charged. I recommend two of them.