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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 05:49:01
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Razerous wrote: Nilok wrote: Vineheart01 wrote:Thats basically my idea. It makes no sense without Nova charge to be infinitely stronger than the hammerhead's ion cannon. You cant say its powered differently without the nova charge because its still an ION weapon. That and the range is just ridiculous.
And yeah ive had several times where Gets Hot screwed me over. My last 2k game against my BA/ IG friend i had 1 riptide with IA. It did nothing other than S10 Smash his jumppack guy that was pissing off my crisis suits (he had an AP4 weapon so i kept saving them, but he had a 3+ as well with a 4++). I literally Gets Hot 3 of 5 attacks, and completely scattered to nomansland with the other 2 lol.
Never had bad luck THAT bad with a riptide. Landing 1 attack the entire game, a melee one at that, is just sad.
Once GW fixes the ECPA/Riptide mistake, make a Riptide Wing Farsight Enclaves with ECPA and HBC. The ECPA was basically made for the HBC.
What keep two Riptides together and the other with the ECPA can go golo?
Definite, it allows you to position them on opposite sides of the board and still support each other. A great thing about the ECPA with the HBC is the ability to re-roll 1s. This basically makes the risk of an overcharged HBC nonexistent by having little risk in failing a Nova Charge or Gets Hot and increases the number of hits to rend with. At the same time, the Riptide Wing isn't limited by range for their +1 BS ability. This means that if you can't get markerlight support for your ECPA Riptide, you can have one of your IA Riptides shoot at the HBC Riptide's target (it doesn't even need to hit), and you will be hitting on 3s, re-rolling 1s. Then there is the Hailfire with a Nova Charged HBC and re-rolling 1s. The Fio'vre pilot should be called C' tl A't D'lete.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/12/05 05:52:01
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 05:51:09
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Tunneling Trygon
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To be clear, the ITC is not saying that this is the case. One guy who wrote an article about a tournament that he took the tau to says that that is how he is playing his Tau. Doesn't mean that the ITC is endorsing that interpretation of the rules. I've emailed Reece and I'll let you know what he says.
Also, I think I've keyed in on why it has to be once per suit, not once per unit:
The rule says that we need to "declare the unit will use the holophoton countermeasures"
This can't be referring to multiple models activating it because you would need to use the word "their holophoton..." to reference plural models. An absence of the word "the" could als potentially signify the unit, but "the" is singular. Completely unambiguous in RAW and RAI if you ask me
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 06:01:57
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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...I just reread the Riptide Wing. None of the rules say that the prior Riptide needs to be in another unit, just that it is part of this formations.
Okay, this makes a really silly tactic you can do with the Riptide Wing making all the Riptides BS 4, even the first one that shoots.
First, you have one unit have at least two Riptides and have them equipped with different secondary weapons (SMS and Plasma for instance) and/or primary weapons. In the shooting phase, declare one of the secondary weapons as the weapon group you are firing. Now the other Riptide in the unit is BS 4. Now declare the other secondary weapon as the weapon group you are firing. The first Riptide is now BS 4. Now fire your primary weapons with both Riptides at BS 4.
This requires at least four Riptides, but aside from the first weapon fired from the first Riptide, all of the Riptides will be hitting on 3s.
This feels like MTG and abusing the stack.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/05 06:03:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 06:50:04
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 06:54:46
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
Olympia, WA
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Tinkrr wrote:Well hold on guys, before we get carried away, let's look at what the Holophoton does. In theory it gives your one Ghostkeel and its two drones a shield against shooting from one unit for one turn. That's pretty solid by itself, but when you include more Ghostkeels in that unit it doesn't grow linearly, it grows exponentially. I get it makes sense that each one should be able to use, but it does mean that each Ghostkeel basically gets three Holophotons, instead of one in that situation., which means it's either immune for three turns from one squad, or can mitigate multiple squads for one turn or more, which is a massive power increase per Ghostkeel taken.
Now consider the other aspect of this, a Holophoton field that functions once per squad, means there's a trade off for taking a unit of Ghostkeels versus individual Ghostkeels, which isn't bad because it encourages stronger list building consideration since there are so many trade offs with choosing either route.
Like I said, I can see it going either way, and even if you can't, I urge you to consider the power balance of how the ability scales with different squad compositions.
130 points later... Um... No. 130 points? you're paying a TON for that suit. An entire unit sucks like 400 points and you're thinking that's WORSE than an invisible assault unit for 400 points?
I'm sorry but this freaking ITC thing is just really too much.
So disgusted if true.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/12/05 06:58:42
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 07:01:07
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Jancoran wrote: Tinkrr wrote:Well hold on guys, before we get carried away, let's look at what the Holophoton does. In theory it gives your one Ghostkeel and its two drones a shield against shooting from one unit for one turn. That's pretty solid by itself, but when you include more Ghostkeels in that unit it doesn't grow linearly, it grows exponentially. I get it makes sense that each one should be able to use, but it does mean that each Ghostkeel basically gets three Holophotons, instead of one in that situation., which means it's either immune for three turns from one squad, or can mitigate multiple squads for one turn or more, which is a massive power increase per Ghostkeel taken.
Now consider the other aspect of this, a Holophoton field that functions once per squad, means there's a trade off for taking a unit of Ghostkeels versus individual Ghostkeels, which isn't bad because it encourages stronger list building consideration since there are so many trade offs with choosing either route.
Like I said, I can see it going either way, and even if you can't, I urge you to consider the power balance of how the ability scales with different squad compositions.
130 points later... Um... No. 130 points? you're paying a TON for that suit. An entire unit sucks like 400 points and you're thinking that's WORSE than an invisible assault unit for 400 points?
I'm sorry but this freaking ITC thing is just really too much.
So disgusted.
First of all it's not an ITC ruling, it's just how someone in the ITC played it.
Second of all that 130 per bakes in drones and more.
Third of all, it's only wasted points if you group them, you can still have each individually and gain the same amount of benefit.
Fourth of all, how do you equate 130 points as including that ability per Ghostkeel, and then giving that ability three times to your Ghostkeels with no added increase? As in, if you think the 130 includes a one use Holophoton, because that large point cost accounts for that, what is your opinion of grouping 2-3 Ghostkeels and gaining 1-2 extra Holophotons more than you'd have for each Ghostkeel at no extra point cost? All the Ghostkeels would still gain their initial use, but they'd gain a second and third use each.
Edit: Basically think of this situation, you have two Ghostkeels, each in their own unit. If your opponent shoots with two different units they can each individually negate that for one turn, they can also negate one unit for two turns if each takes shots individual. However, in reality it will function more like they negate for a turn, then next turn they take fire and die. However, when grouped, they can still negate two units of fire in one turn, and negate fire from one unit in two turns, but the amount negated is not the same, since it's for both Keels instead of just one. In other words, if they negate two shooting phases for one unit, if they are separate the unit will shoot, get negated, and then next turn take out a Ghostkeel, while shooting the third turn at the third Keel to be negated, while in the other case both Keels negate for two turns meaning that on turn three they have more fire power by a significant margin.
Edit 2: In other words, if a unit shoots at the Keels, and you Holophoton for both Keels, both get the benefit, for each time you use it, so ultimately you can gain up to four Keels worth of Holophoton with only two Keels. With three Keels you get 9 Keels worth of Holophoton, see what I mean by exponential instead of linear?
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just asking you to consider these questions.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/12/05 07:13:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 07:12:53
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
Olympia, WA
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Its the rule. You have read it so i assume you know the wording is clear enough. Each suit comes with it. Each one affects the unit. Its not unclear. It needs no interpretation. No one is arguing what it says.
It only works against one unit per Countermeasure! It specifies that "A MODEL" uses it and it affects one unit targeting "IT or the unit it belongs to"
So all you're doing is getting three kind of spontaneous attempts to defray fire on your unit. Three units the whole game get affected. For 400 points. That's very possibly not even enough to stop all incoming fire for a round. Its ridiculous to try and nerf it further.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/05 07:14:21
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 07:22:04
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Jancoran wrote:Its the rule. You have read it so i assume you know the wording is clear enough. Each suit comes with it. Each one affects the unit. Its not unclear. It needs no interpretation. No one is arguing what it says.
It only works against one unit per Countermeasure! It specifies that "A MODEL" uses it and it affects one unit targeting " IT or the unit it belongs to"
So all you're doing is getting three kind of spontaneous attempts to defray fire on your unit. Three units the whole game get affected. For 400 points. That's very possibly not even enough to stop all incoming fire for a round. Its ridiculous to try and nerf it further.
I agree with you on how the wording sounds, but I'm not sure about the power level of the ability with that wording.
Again, it's three enemy units in any case, but it's not as simple as you think. Again:
One Holophoton affects 3 models in your unit, two Holophotons in a unit affects 12 models in your unit, and three Holophotons affects 27 models in your unit.
More so, let's look at another aspect. If I'm the opponent, and I want your Keels dead in one turn, the typical way is to target them with one big unit in a turn, make them use the Holophoton thing, then target them with another big unit. This all of a sudden becomes impossible with multiple Keels in a unit since they can essentially negate the full turn for all the Keels, instead of just one unit worth of shooting, and that's rather massive. Maybe if there was a restriction that stated it was once per turn, it would make a lot more sense, would you be opposed to a "once per turn" limitation on the Holophoton thing?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 08:06:28
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
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Tinkrr wrote: Jancoran wrote:Its the rule. You have read it so i assume you know the wording is clear enough. Each suit comes with it. Each one affects the unit. Its not unclear. It needs no interpretation. No one is arguing what it says.
It only works against one unit per Countermeasure! It specifies that "A MODEL" uses it and it affects one unit targeting " IT or the unit it belongs to"
So all you're doing is getting three kind of spontaneous attempts to defray fire on your unit. Three units the whole game get affected. For 400 points. That's very possibly not even enough to stop all incoming fire for a round. Its ridiculous to try and nerf it further.
I agree with you on how the wording sounds, but I'm not sure about the power level of the ability with that wording.
Again, it's three enemy units in any case, but it's not as simple as you think. Again:
One Holophoton affects 3 models in your unit, two Holophotons in a unit affects 12 models in your unit, and three Holophotons affects 27 models in your unit.
More so, let's look at another aspect. If I'm the opponent, and I want your Keels dead in one turn, the typical way is to target them with one big unit in a turn, make them use the Holophoton thing, then target them with another big unit. This all of a sudden becomes impossible with multiple Keels in a unit since they can essentially negate the full turn for all the Keels, instead of just one unit worth of shooting, and that's rather massive. Maybe if there was a restriction that stated it was once per turn, it would make a lot more sense, would you be opposed to a "once per turn" limitation on the Holophoton thing?
Seriously complaining that it may be too powerful? Compare it to invisibility which makes EVERY single unit firing at your unit snapfire FOR THE ENTIRE GAME, in addition to only being hit on 6s in CC. HPCM would be 3 units in total lol
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/05 08:06:50
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 08:24:42
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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notredameguy10 wrote: Tinkrr wrote: Jancoran wrote:Its the rule. You have read it so i assume you know the wording is clear enough. Each suit comes with it. Each one affects the unit. Its not unclear. It needs no interpretation. No one is arguing what it says.
It only works against one unit per Countermeasure! It specifies that "A MODEL" uses it and it affects one unit targeting " IT or the unit it belongs to"
So all you're doing is getting three kind of spontaneous attempts to defray fire on your unit. Three units the whole game get affected. For 400 points. That's very possibly not even enough to stop all incoming fire for a round. Its ridiculous to try and nerf it further.
I agree with you on how the wording sounds, but I'm not sure about the power level of the ability with that wording.
Again, it's three enemy units in any case, but it's not as simple as you think. Again:
One Holophoton affects 3 models in your unit, two Holophotons in a unit affects 12 models in your unit, and three Holophotons affects 27 models in your unit.
More so, let's look at another aspect. If I'm the opponent, and I want your Keels dead in one turn, the typical way is to target them with one big unit in a turn, make them use the Holophoton thing, then target them with another big unit. This all of a sudden becomes impossible with multiple Keels in a unit since they can essentially negate the full turn for all the Keels, instead of just one unit worth of shooting, and that's rather massive. Maybe if there was a restriction that stated it was once per turn, it would make a lot more sense, would you be opposed to a "once per turn" limitation on the Holophoton thing?
Seriously complaining that it may be too powerful? Compare it to invisibility which makes EVERY single unit firing at your unit snapfire FOR THE ENTIRE GAME, in addition to only being hit on 6s in CC. HPCM would be 3 units in total lol
Not complaining, simply noting.
I was going to list the differences between invisibility, and Holophoton, but that wouldn't be fair, the issue is that really you're comparing two non-comparable things. Let's put it this way a Keel is 2x the points of a Broadside, and with a CIR it has -2 shots, but it's also a lot more mobile, and has a ton of extra rules. Don't compare it to invisibility, compare it to what the Tau has, which is basically a pair of Broadsides, and in all honesty, it's better at the point value than those, and no one can argue that HYMP Broadsides are bad, are are you willing to claim a unit that's comparable to them but better is?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 08:54:54
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre
Olympia, WA
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Tinkrr wrote: Jancoran wrote:Its the rule. You have read it so i assume you know the wording is clear enough. Each suit comes with it. Each one affects the unit. Its not unclear. It needs no interpretation. No one is arguing what it says.
It only works against one unit per Countermeasure! It specifies that "A MODEL" uses it and it affects one unit targeting " IT or the unit it belongs to"
So all you're doing is getting three kind of spontaneous attempts to defray fire on your unit. Three units the whole game get affected. For 400 points. That's very possibly not even enough to stop all incoming fire for a round. Its ridiculous to try and nerf it further.
I agree with you on how the wording sounds, but I'm not sure about the power level of the ability with that wording.
Again, it's three enemy units in any case, but it's not as simple as you think. Again:
One Holophoton affects 3 models in your unit, two Holophotons in a unit affects 12 models in your unit, and three Holophotons affects 27 models in your unit.
More so, let's look at another aspect. If I'm the opponent, and I want your Keels dead in one turn, the typical way is to target them with one big unit in a turn, make them use the Holophoton thing, then target them with another big unit. This all of a sudden becomes impossible with multiple Keels in a unit since they can essentially negate the full turn for all the Keels, instead of just one unit worth of shooting, and that's rather massive. Maybe if there was a restriction that stated it was once per turn, it would make a lot more sense, would you be opposed to a "once per turn" limitation on the Holophoton thing?
It affects the unit FIRING on it...not the Ghostkeel unit itself. So you cannot look at it like that. the enemy unit can be a 40 man blob or a five man dire avenger squad and you get the same effect. So its the UNIT targetting you that is the target of this ability...not the Ghostkeels themselves!
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/05 08:55:39
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
7th Ambassadorial Grand Tournament Registration: http://40kambassadors.com/register.php |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 10:31:34
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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It reminds me of Journey to Nowhere and blink effect shenanigans.
In the combo, you target a creature to be removed from play with Journey to Nowhere. In response, you return Journey to Nowhere to you hand before the target creature is exiled. Journey to Nowhere is returned to your hand, and then the creature is exiled. Normally when Journey to Nowhere is removed from play, the creature is returned back to play. However, since the creature was not exiled by the time Journey to Nowhere left play, and thus misses the trigger, the creature is permanently exiled.
While not as extreme, you are playing stack order with the shooting rules. You have your first weapon fire, giving the BS bonus to the other Riptide in the unit, then you switch to the second Riptide for shooting by selecting its secondary weapon and shooting. Now you have both Riptides in the unit, and any other Riptides that join in, at a buffed BS.
This really feels like shenanigans in a game like 40k.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/05 10:33:43
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 14:13:09
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Tunneling Trygon
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You do need Riptides to be in separate units to stack the benefits, as it stipulates that one riptide must "already have shot" at the unit. You cannot claim stacking for a second or third riptide because once the riptide "has shot", the shooting phase is complete for the entire unit. All the shots for the unit have to be completed before the riptide can be considered to "have shot" (note the past tense).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 14:56:28
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun
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Ghostkeel's holophotons are nowhere near broken. Heck i have yet to use it on anything other than massed troop guns just because the 2+ cover save alone deters the dangerous guns or blast weapons.
Its designed to keep the unit from being wiped out by something crazy strong for an extra turn, not be an invisibility star. If it affected the entire unit like invisibility, yeah that'd be broken as hell. But it doesnt. It makes the unit firing on them when you declare it fire snaps, the ghosts dont get any buffs.
Now as long as you have 1 left it does prevent any blasts or flamers from hitting the ghosts for the entire game. Not because of any rules, but because nobody wants to shoot it at them because they know the moment you target them with a blast weapon, SNAPFIRE! shots lost because you cant snapfire blasts or change targets.
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An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 20:21:04
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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luke1705 wrote:You do need Riptides to be in separate units to stack the benefits, as it stipulates that one riptide must "already have shot" at the unit. You cannot claim stacking for a second or third riptide because once the riptide "has shot", the shooting phase is complete for the entire unit. All the shots for the unit have to be completed before the riptide can be considered to "have shot" (note the past tense).
Could you point me to the rule you found? It would make me feel a lot better.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 20:29:45
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Nilok wrote:
It reminds me of Journey to Nowhere and blink effect shenanigans.
In the combo, you target a creature to be removed from play with Journey to Nowhere. In response, you return Journey to Nowhere to you hand before the target creature is exiled. Journey to Nowhere is returned to your hand, and then the creature is exiled. Normally when Journey to Nowhere is removed from play, the creature is returned back to play. However, since the creature was not exiled by the time Journey to Nowhere left play, and thus misses the trigger, the creature is permanently exiled.
While not as extreme, you are playing stack order with the shooting rules. You have your first weapon fire, giving the BS bonus to the other Riptide in the unit, then you switch to the second Riptide for shooting by selecting its secondary weapon and shooting. Now you have both Riptides in the unit, and any other Riptides that join in, at a buffed BS.
This really feels like shenanigans in a game like 40k.
The Journey to Nowhere thing you mentioned isn't shenanigans, in fact it was designed with that in mind as cards like it had existed for a long time and that was a known property of the stack due to its simple and straightforward nature. The only recently changed the wording to intentionally prevent that, and it wasn't that long ago since they removed damage from the stack also, they're just trying to make the game more friendly to people who aren't programmers or mathematicians.
I see what you're getting at though.
Jancoran wrote: Tinkrr wrote: Jancoran wrote:Its the rule. You have read it so i assume you know the wording is clear enough. Each suit comes with it. Each one affects the unit. Its not unclear. It needs no interpretation. No one is arguing what it says.
It only works against one unit per Countermeasure! It specifies that "A MODEL" uses it and it affects one unit targeting " IT or the unit it belongs to"
So all you're doing is getting three kind of spontaneous attempts to defray fire on your unit. Three units the whole game get affected. For 400 points. That's very possibly not even enough to stop all incoming fire for a round. Its ridiculous to try and nerf it further.
I agree with you on how the wording sounds, but I'm not sure about the power level of the ability with that wording.
Again, it's three enemy units in any case, but it's not as simple as you think. Again:
One Holophoton affects 3 models in your unit, two Holophotons in a unit affects 12 models in your unit, and three Holophotons affects 27 models in your unit.
More so, let's look at another aspect. If I'm the opponent, and I want your Keels dead in one turn, the typical way is to target them with one big unit in a turn, make them use the Holophoton thing, then target them with another big unit. This all of a sudden becomes impossible with multiple Keels in a unit since they can essentially negate the full turn for all the Keels, instead of just one unit worth of shooting, and that's rather massive. Maybe if there was a restriction that stated it was once per turn, it would make a lot more sense, would you be opposed to a "once per turn" limitation on the Holophoton thing?
It affects the unit FIRING on it...not the Ghostkeel unit itself. So you cannot look at it like that. the enemy unit can be a 40 man blob or a five man dire avenger squad and you get the same effect. So its the UNIT targetting you that is the target of this ability...not the Ghostkeels themselves!
But you're discounting the amount of models that benefit from that unit being affected. For a simple example, let's say your opponent has two units of super powerful shooting attacks, if you have one Keel, they fire with one unit to eat the Holophoton, and then use the other to kill the Keel. If on the other hand you have two Keels in the squad, that Keel probably isn't dying since now both of your opponent's squads are being Holophotoned instead of one, and they can no longer use the fire power of both units to kill the Keel.
In other words, because it affects the squad, you essentially are giving your Ghostkeel two to three uses of it during the game instead of the intended one.
Vineheart01 wrote:Ghostkeel's holophotons are nowhere near broken. Heck i have yet to use it on anything other than massed troop guns just because the 2+ cover save alone deters the dangerous guns or blast weapons.
Its designed to keep the unit from being wiped out by something crazy strong for an extra turn, not be an invisibility star. If it affected the entire unit like invisibility, yeah that'd be broken as hell. But it doesnt. It makes the unit firing on them when you declare it fire snaps, the ghosts dont get any buffs.
Now as long as you have 1 left it does prevent any blasts or flamers from hitting the ghosts for the entire game. Not because of any rules, but because nobody wants to shoot it at them because they know the moment you target them with a blast weapon, SNAPFIRE! shots lost because you cant snapfire blasts or change targets.
I'm not saying it's broken, just that it's important to consider the way the power of it amplifies when using multiple Ghostkeels, as it does grow in strength a lot faster than a lot of people assume probably.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 20:34:03
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
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Tinkrr wrote: Nilok wrote:
It reminds me of Journey to Nowhere and blink effect shenanigans.
In the combo, you target a creature to be removed from play with Journey to Nowhere. In response, you return Journey to Nowhere to you hand before the target creature is exiled. Journey to Nowhere is returned to your hand, and then the creature is exiled. Normally when Journey to Nowhere is removed from play, the creature is returned back to play. However, since the creature was not exiled by the time Journey to Nowhere left play, and thus misses the trigger, the creature is permanently exiled.
While not as extreme, you are playing stack order with the shooting rules. You have your first weapon fire, giving the BS bonus to the other Riptide in the unit, then you switch to the second Riptide for shooting by selecting its secondary weapon and shooting. Now you have both Riptides in the unit, and any other Riptides that join in, at a buffed BS.
This really feels like shenanigans in a game like 40k.
The Journey to Nowhere thing you mentioned isn't shenanigans, in fact it was designed with that in mind as cards like it had existed for a long time and that was a known property of the stack due to its simple and straightforward nature. The only recently changed the wording to intentionally prevent that, and it wasn't that long ago since they removed damage from the stack also, they're just trying to make the game more friendly to people who aren't programmers or mathematicians.
I see what you're getting at though.
Jancoran wrote: Tinkrr wrote: Jancoran wrote:Its the rule. You have read it so i assume you know the wording is clear enough. Each suit comes with it. Each one affects the unit. Its not unclear. It needs no interpretation. No one is arguing what it says.
It only works against one unit per Countermeasure! It specifies that "A MODEL" uses it and it affects one unit targeting " IT or the unit it belongs to"
So all you're doing is getting three kind of spontaneous attempts to defray fire on your unit. Three units the whole game get affected. For 400 points. That's very possibly not even enough to stop all incoming fire for a round. Its ridiculous to try and nerf it further.
I agree with you on how the wording sounds, but I'm not sure about the power level of the ability with that wording.
Again, it's three enemy units in any case, but it's not as simple as you think. Again:
One Holophoton affects 3 models in your unit, two Holophotons in a unit affects 12 models in your unit, and three Holophotons affects 27 models in your unit.
More so, let's look at another aspect. If I'm the opponent, and I want your Keels dead in one turn, the typical way is to target them with one big unit in a turn, make them use the Holophoton thing, then target them with another big unit. This all of a sudden becomes impossible with multiple Keels in a unit since they can essentially negate the full turn for all the Keels, instead of just one unit worth of shooting, and that's rather massive. Maybe if there was a restriction that stated it was once per turn, it would make a lot more sense, would you be opposed to a "once per turn" limitation on the Holophoton thing?
It affects the unit FIRING on it...not the Ghostkeel unit itself. So you cannot look at it like that. the enemy unit can be a 40 man blob or a five man dire avenger squad and you get the same effect. So its the UNIT targetting you that is the target of this ability...not the Ghostkeels themselves!
But you're discounting the amount of models that benefit from that unit being affected. For a simple example, let's say your opponent has two units of super powerful shooting attacks, if you have one Keel, they fire with one unit to eat the Holophoton, and then use the other to kill the Keel. If on the other hand you have two Keels in the squad, that Keel probably isn't dying since now both of your opponent's squads are being Holophotoned instead of one, and they can no longer use the fire power of both units to kill the Keel.
In other words, because it affects the squad, you essentially are giving your Ghostkeel two to three uses of it during the game instead of the intended one.
Vineheart01 wrote:Ghostkeel's holophotons are nowhere near broken. Heck i have yet to use it on anything other than massed troop guns just because the 2+ cover save alone deters the dangerous guns or blast weapons.
Its designed to keep the unit from being wiped out by something crazy strong for an extra turn, not be an invisibility star. If it affected the entire unit like invisibility, yeah that'd be broken as hell. But it doesnt. It makes the unit firing on them when you declare it fire snaps, the ghosts dont get any buffs.
Now as long as you have 1 left it does prevent any blasts or flamers from hitting the ghosts for the entire game. Not because of any rules, but because nobody wants to shoot it at them because they know the moment you target them with a blast weapon, SNAPFIRE! shots lost because you cant snapfire blasts or change targets.
I'm not saying it's broken, just that it's important to consider the way the power of it amplifies when using multiple Ghostkeels, as it does grow in strength a lot faster than a lot of people assume probably.
And that would be no different than if i had 3 ghost keels as seperate units. I would be able to use it 3 times, same as if i had 3 in 1 squad.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 20:41:45
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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notredameguy10 wrote:
And that would be no different than if i had 3 ghost keels as seperate units. I would be able to use it 3 times, same as if i had 3 in 1 squad.
No, see this is what I'm trying to get across, it's not the same at all.
Re-read what I wrote there, two separate units of Ghostkeels play completely differently against shooting than one unit of two Ghostkeels. As in if your opponent has two squads of powerful shooting, and targets your single Ghostkeel with both, he can most likely kill one of the two Ghostkeels, but if your unit of two gets targeted by the same shooting, both Ghostkeels will survive. Yes, in the grand scheme you'd still soak two turns of shooting from those two squads, but in one scenario twice as many Ghostkeels survive, which is a huge difference.
The only time it's comparable is if for whatever they decide to shoot each squad at a different Ghostkeel, since then both squads get Holophotoned, and if that decision from your opponent sounds like it's insane, it should say something because that's basically what happens when you get the double Holophoton in one unit of two Ghostkeels.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 20:45:42
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
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Tinkrr wrote:notredameguy10 wrote:
And that would be no different than if i had 3 ghost keels as seperate units. I would be able to use it 3 times, same as if i had 3 in 1 squad.
No, see this is what I'm trying to get across, it's not the same at all.
Re-read what I wrote there, two separate units of Ghostkeels play completely differently against shooting than one unit of two Ghostkeels. As in if your opponent has two squads of powerful shooting, and targets your single Ghostkeel with both, he can most likely kill one of the two Ghostkeels, but if your unit of two gets targeted by the same shooting, both Ghostkeels will survive. Yes, in the grand scheme you'd still soak two turns of shooting from those two squads, but in one scenario twice as many Ghostkeels survive, which is a huge difference.
The only time it's comparable is if for whatever they decide to shoot each squad at a different Ghostkeel, since then both squads get Holophotoned, and if that decision from your opponent sounds like it's insane, it should say something because that's basically what happens when you get the double Holophoton in one unit of two Ghostkeels.
You are looking it solely from one direction. There are negatives to your method as well. There are VERY few things in the game that can kill a ghost keel in 1 round of shooting. So being able to use it on 3 seperate units is much more efficient than being able to use it 1 single time on a squad of 3. aka using it 3 times on seperate units is infinitely better than using it once on a squad of 3
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/05 20:46:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 20:48:24
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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notredameguy10 wrote: Tinkrr wrote:notredameguy10 wrote:
And that would be no different than if i had 3 ghost keels as seperate units. I would be able to use it 3 times, same as if i had 3 in 1 squad.
No, see this is what I'm trying to get across, it's not the same at all.
Re-read what I wrote there, two separate units of Ghostkeels play completely differently against shooting than one unit of two Ghostkeels. As in if your opponent has two squads of powerful shooting, and targets your single Ghostkeel with both, he can most likely kill one of the two Ghostkeels, but if your unit of two gets targeted by the same shooting, both Ghostkeels will survive. Yes, in the grand scheme you'd still soak two turns of shooting from those two squads, but in one scenario twice as many Ghostkeels survive, which is a huge difference.
The only time it's comparable is if for whatever they decide to shoot each squad at a different Ghostkeel, since then both squads get Holophotoned, and if that decision from your opponent sounds like it's insane, it should say something because that's basically what happens when you get the double Holophoton in one unit of two Ghostkeels.
You are looking it solely from one direction. There are negatives to your method as well. There are VERY few things in the game that can kill a ghost keel in 1 round of shooting. So being able to use it on 3 seperate units is much more efficient than being able to use it 1 single time on a squad of 3. aka using it 3 times on seperate units is infinitely better than using it once on a squad of 3
But that's the good thing in that scenario, it makes you make that decision while list building, or if you add a once per turn clause then it still has that decision making process.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 20:51:11
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
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Tinkrr wrote:notredameguy10 wrote: Tinkrr wrote:notredameguy10 wrote:
And that would be no different than if i had 3 ghost keels as seperate units. I would be able to use it 3 times, same as if i had 3 in 1 squad.
No, see this is what I'm trying to get across, it's not the same at all.
Re-read what I wrote there, two separate units of Ghostkeels play completely differently against shooting than one unit of two Ghostkeels. As in if your opponent has two squads of powerful shooting, and targets your single Ghostkeel with both, he can most likely kill one of the two Ghostkeels, but if your unit of two gets targeted by the same shooting, both Ghostkeels will survive. Yes, in the grand scheme you'd still soak two turns of shooting from those two squads, but in one scenario twice as many Ghostkeels survive, which is a huge difference.
The only time it's comparable is if for whatever they decide to shoot each squad at a different Ghostkeel, since then both squads get Holophotoned, and if that decision from your opponent sounds like it's insane, it should say something because that's basically what happens when you get the double Holophoton in one unit of two Ghostkeels.
You are looking it solely from one direction. There are negatives to your method as well. There are VERY few things in the game that can kill a ghost keel in 1 round of shooting. So being able to use it on 3 seperate units is much more efficient than being able to use it 1 single time on a squad of 3. aka using it 3 times on seperate units is infinitely better than using it once on a squad of 3
But that's the good thing in that scenario, it makes you make that decision while list building, or if you add a once per turn clause then it still has that decision making process.
Lol no one is putting in clauses. Thats not how the rule works as written. If you think it is too good fine that is your prerogative. Doesn't mean thats not how it works
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 20:59:07
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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notredameguy10 wrote: Tinkrr wrote:notredameguy10 wrote: Tinkrr wrote:notredameguy10 wrote:
And that would be no different than if i had 3 ghost keels as seperate units. I would be able to use it 3 times, same as if i had 3 in 1 squad.
No, see this is what I'm trying to get across, it's not the same at all.
Re-read what I wrote there, two separate units of Ghostkeels play completely differently against shooting than one unit of two Ghostkeels. As in if your opponent has two squads of powerful shooting, and targets your single Ghostkeel with both, he can most likely kill one of the two Ghostkeels, but if your unit of two gets targeted by the same shooting, both Ghostkeels will survive. Yes, in the grand scheme you'd still soak two turns of shooting from those two squads, but in one scenario twice as many Ghostkeels survive, which is a huge difference.
The only time it's comparable is if for whatever they decide to shoot each squad at a different Ghostkeel, since then both squads get Holophotoned, and if that decision from your opponent sounds like it's insane, it should say something because that's basically what happens when you get the double Holophoton in one unit of two Ghostkeels.
You are looking it solely from one direction. There are negatives to your method as well. There are VERY few things in the game that can kill a ghost keel in 1 round of shooting. So being able to use it on 3 seperate units is much more efficient than being able to use it 1 single time on a squad of 3. aka using it 3 times on seperate units is infinitely better than using it once on a squad of 3
But that's the good thing in that scenario, it makes you make that decision while list building, or if you add a once per turn clause then it still has that decision making process.
Lol no one is putting in clauses. Thats not how the rule works as written. If you think it is too good fine that is your prerogative. Doesn't mean thats not how it works
Well there's currently a discussion going on about whether or not they all use it or just one uses it, when placed in a squad, so I'm just proposing a middle ground.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 21:30:49
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
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Tinkrr wrote:notredameguy10 wrote: Tinkrr wrote:notredameguy10 wrote: Tinkrr wrote:notredameguy10 wrote:
And that would be no different than if i had 3 ghost keels as seperate units. I would be able to use it 3 times, same as if i had 3 in 1 squad.
No, see this is what I'm trying to get across, it's not the same at all.
Re-read what I wrote there, two separate units of Ghostkeels play completely differently against shooting than one unit of two Ghostkeels. As in if your opponent has two squads of powerful shooting, and targets your single Ghostkeel with both, he can most likely kill one of the two Ghostkeels, but if your unit of two gets targeted by the same shooting, both Ghostkeels will survive. Yes, in the grand scheme you'd still soak two turns of shooting from those two squads, but in one scenario twice as many Ghostkeels survive, which is a huge difference.
The only time it's comparable is if for whatever they decide to shoot each squad at a different Ghostkeel, since then both squads get Holophotoned, and if that decision from your opponent sounds like it's insane, it should say something because that's basically what happens when you get the double Holophoton in one unit of two Ghostkeels.
You are looking it solely from one direction. There are negatives to your method as well. There are VERY few things in the game that can kill a ghost keel in 1 round of shooting. So being able to use it on 3 seperate units is much more efficient than being able to use it 1 single time on a squad of 3. aka using it 3 times on seperate units is infinitely better than using it once on a squad of 3
But that's the good thing in that scenario, it makes you make that decision while list building, or if you add a once per turn clause then it still has that decision making process.
Lol no one is putting in clauses. Thats not how the rule works as written. If you think it is too good fine that is your prerogative. Doesn't mean thats not how it works
Well there's currently a discussion going on about whether or not they all use it or just one uses it, when placed in a squad, so I'm just proposing a middle ground.
there is not a current discussion. this was already a topic in YMDC weeks ago and it was closed by a mod because every single person (except one) agreed on how the rule reads and that it is clear as to being able to use it 3 times.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 21:45:52
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan
UK
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Again, it is simple situation;
For those of us that believe it is 1 time per unit of models = Judge the impact based on that premise.
For those of us that believe it is 1 time per model - judge the impact based on that premise.
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H.B.M.C. wrote:Friend of mine just sent me this:
"The Tyranid Codex, where I learned the truth about despair, as will you. There's a reason why this codex is the worst hell on earth... Hope. ." Too be fair.. it's all worked out quite well!
Heh. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/05 22:04:23
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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notredameguy10 wrote:
there is not a current discussion. this was already a topic in YMDC weeks ago and it was closed by a mod because every single person (except one) agreed on how the rule reads and that it is clear as to being able to use it 3 times.
We're literally having a current discussion about it here, right now :/.
Oh well, I made my case on the matter and I've stated that I'd prefer the more powerful version of the rule but understand why it might be an issue. Now it's just a matter of seeing if the next ITC vote includes the topic, and if it does, seeing if it passes or fails.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/06 00:11:55
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Tunneling Trygon
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Nilok wrote: luke1705 wrote:You do need Riptides to be in separate units to stack the benefits, as it stipulates that one riptide must "already have shot" at the unit. You cannot claim stacking for a second or third riptide because once the riptide "has shot", the shooting phase is complete for the entire unit. All the shots for the unit have to be completed before the riptide can be considered to "have shot" (note the past tense).
Could you point me to the rule you found? It would make me feel a lot better.
Check out the shooting phase. I have the digital version so I don't know what page it's on for the print rulebook, but right after they talk about the psychic powers, there is the first page on the shooting phase, where they give you an order of operations for the shooting sequence.
The third step in particular says that all of models in a given unit that are equipped with the same type of weapon must shoot it at the same time. This is further reinforced with the "allocate wounds and remove casualties section". At the bottom of the first paragraph, there is a bold section that says that all of the wounds from a single wound pool must be allocated before moving on the the next wound pool. What constitutes a wound pool is defined in the last paragraph on the preceding page, where is says that all the wounds with the same strength, AP value and special rules are formed into the same pool. Essentially, this will mean all of the wounds caused by the same weapon profile. So if, for example, all of the ion accelerators in a unit must be shot and then resolved before a second wound pool is addressed, you can't say that you're going to shoot one ion accelerator "first" and then shoot a second one "later". They are both resolved simultaneously. This is also stated under the "select a weapon" section when you are nominating a unit to shoot. "When firing a unit, completely resolve all attacks from the same weapons at the same time before moving onto any differently named weapons."
So actually, in conclusion, I suppose if two riptides had both different primary and secondary weapons, it would work (step 6 of the shooting sequence says that the shooting attack must be completely resolved by a single type of weapon before moving on to the next type of weapon), but it just feels gamey to me. Tau have so much going for them. No need to try and rules lawyer more efficiency. That riptide wing is good enough as is. Riptides with the same weapons (primary or secondary) definitely would not work though.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/06 00:57:10
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
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luke1705 wrote: Nilok wrote: luke1705 wrote:You do need Riptides to be in separate units to stack the benefits, as it stipulates that one riptide must "already have shot" at the unit. You cannot claim stacking for a second or third riptide because once the riptide "has shot", the shooting phase is complete for the entire unit. All the shots for the unit have to be completed before the riptide can be considered to "have shot" (note the past tense).
Could you point me to the rule you found? It would make me feel a lot better.
Check out the shooting phase. I have the digital version so I don't know what page it's on for the print rulebook, but right after they talk about the psychic powers, there is the first page on the shooting phase, where they give you an order of operations for the shooting sequence.
The third step in particular says that all of models in a given unit that are equipped with the same type of weapon must shoot it at the same time. This is further reinforced with the "allocate wounds and remove casualties section". At the bottom of the first paragraph, there is a bold section that says that all of the wounds from a single wound pool must be allocated before moving on the the next wound pool. What constitutes a wound pool is defined in the last paragraph on the preceding page, where is says that all the wounds with the same strength, AP value and special rules are formed into the same pool. Essentially, this will mean all of the wounds caused by the same weapon profile. So if, for example, all of the ion accelerators in a unit must be shot and then resolved before a second wound pool is addressed, you can't say that you're going to shoot one ion accelerator "first" and then shoot a second one "later". They are both resolved simultaneously. This is also stated under the "select a weapon" section when you are nominating a unit to shoot. "When firing a unit, completely resolve all attacks from the same weapons at the same time before moving onto any differently named weapons."
So actually, in conclusion, I suppose if two riptides had both different primary and secondary weapons, it would work (step 6 of the shooting sequence says that the shooting attack must be completely resolved by a single type of weapon before moving on to the next type of weapon), but it just feels gamey to me. Tau have so much going for them. No need to try and rules lawyer more efficiency. That riptide wing is good enough as is. Riptides with the same weapons (primary or secondary) definitely would not work though.
Then you run into issue with the Riptides secondary weapons, as they fire "separately" than the primary weapons
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/06 01:01:03
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
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If you have three Pirana in a squad with a seeker middle each, and one pirana uses one missile, do the other two have to? Do the unused missles mysteriously vanish? The only reason people are grasping desperately for things like this to Nerf taught is this: haters gonna hate. It's seriously pathetic how rule lawyery people have become with this release. Part of it is because there is a not so silent minority that hate tau, and feel they should need have been added and don't fit with the grimdark setting of the game. Some hate what they see as the nerd anime fan faction. It's classic nerd hate on other nerds, like when magic fans look down on yugio or Pokemon fans for liking things they don't like.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/06 01:02:54
warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!
8k points
3k points
3k points
Admech 2.5k points
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/06 01:17:04
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Orock wrote:If you have three Pirana in a squad with a seeker middle each, and one pirana uses one missile, do the other two have to? Do the unused missles mysteriously vanish? The only reason people are grasping desperately for things like this to Nerf taught is this: haters gonna hate. It's seriously pathetic how rule lawyery people have become with this release. Part of it is because there is a not so silent minority that hate tau, and feel they should need have been added and don't fit with the grimdark setting of the game. Some hate what they see as the nerd anime fan faction. It's classic nerd hate on other nerds, like when magic fans look down on yugio or Pokemon fans for liking things they don't like.
Wow, that's quite a bit of anger.
Though to address your Seeker comparison, the reason that doesn't work is that a Seeker is an individual weapon hit, that doesn't scale with the number in the unit. A closer comparison would be if each time you fired a Piranha's Seeker missile, it affected all three Piranhas in that they all fired their missile, but did not consume their missiles, as in each Piranha basically shot three Seekers for the price of one, since in the case of the Holophoton all of the Ghostkeels get the benefit from it, the Seeker does not.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2015/12/06 01:18:16
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Purposeful Hammerhead Pilot
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Tinkrr wrote: Orock wrote:If you have three Pirana in a squad with a seeker middle each, and one pirana uses one missile, do the other two have to? Do the unused missles mysteriously vanish? The only reason people are grasping desperately for things like this to Nerf taught is this: haters gonna hate. It's seriously pathetic how rule lawyery people have become with this release. Part of it is because there is a not so silent minority that hate tau, and feel they should need have been added and don't fit with the grimdark setting of the game. Some hate what they see as the nerd anime fan faction. It's classic nerd hate on other nerds, like when magic fans look down on yugio or Pokemon fans for liking things they don't like.
Wow, that's quite a bit of anger.
Though to address your Seeker comparison, the reason that doesn't work is that a Seeker is an individual weapon hit, that doesn't scale with the number in the unit. A closer comparison would be if each time you fired a Piranha's Seeker missile, it affected all three Piranhas in that they all fired their missile, but did not consume their missiles, as in each Piranha basically shot three Seekers for the price of one, since in the case of the Holophoton all of the Ghostkeels get the benefit from it, the Seeker does not.
That description is irrelevant and inaccurate. The rule for HPCM says it AFFECTS THE UNIT, not model (but is activated by 1 model).
If i had 3 separate SM captains each with a 1 use ability that affects the unit they are in, if all 3 were able to be joined the ability would work 3 times, on the whole unit.
Same thing with resurrection orbs and necron lords. 3 res orbs can be used 3 times, and it affects the whole squad, or just themselves if they are not in a squad together.
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This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2015/12/06 01:23:34
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