Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Interesting.. ok that is a huge power drop... What about templates?


The only major ITC tournament near me is NOVA. Looks like they had a custom FAQ on top of normal rules for that.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

lol well that 100% depends if you are using ITC rules or not. Normally, you cannot even fire blast at anything invisible. With ITC rules you can.

How so? As I understand it blasts target everything in ITC.

,normal RAW you can target primary unit and have a blast overlap an invisible unit. And templates.

That same situation would not work as they both would be targeted in ITC. The only way you could is if a blast 100% scatters onto them.

The ITC heavily nerfed invisibility, so you can actually target them with blasts and such, the Ghostkeel can actually completely negate a blast with the Holophoton. The ITC rules for invisibility:

For ITC format events, The Invisibility psychic power is altered to read: units shooting at the Invisible unit do so at BS1, and hit it in melee on a 5+.

Use the following clarifications for the Invisibility psychic power:
-Any attacks or special abilities that can cause damage (i.e. hits, wounds and/or vehicle damage) without rolling to hit (e.g. Codex: Chaos Daemons Warp Storm Tables, etc) affect invisible units normally.
-Nova psychic powers affect invisible units normally.
-Stomp attacks affect invisible units normally.
-If a model in close combat with an invisible unit would normally hit in close combat on a fixed value (e.g. Kharn the Betrayer), the player whose turn it is determines whether the fixed value or the Invisibility psychic power takes precedence.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Interesting.. ok that is a huge power drop... What about templates?


The only major ITC tournament near me is NOVA. Looks like they had a custom FAQ on top of normal rules for that.

The NOVA Open is not ITC based, they support full on Deathstar stuff D:

 Tinkrr wrote:
Not going to lie, I love the Ghostkeel model, and the Stealthsuits, so having an excuse to run the ladder with the former is always good.

I wouldn't say the Collider is pointless, although I much prefer the CIR. Sure, it will function as a Fusion Blaster against tanks, since like you said it probably won't hit more than one with a blast, but against non-tank targets it's still a S8, AP 1, blast weapon, which can have its uses against things with a 2+ save, especially when it ignore cover and functions as a blast so the to hit isn't as bad. Basically it's probably better against Invis Deathstars than tanks.

One possible use for the Fusion Collider would be to hit some Termies as soon as they deep strike (if you have EWO on your 'keel). They will be nice and bunched up, so if the scatter gods are with you, the terminator unit in question will be neutered. Also good against Daemon/KDK summoning (that fresh unit of Flesh Hounds won't be so scary anymore ). Still, the Raker is a better choice as it is good even if your opponent's models are spread out.

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Interesting.. ok that is a huge power drop... What about templates?


The only major ITC tournament near me is NOVA. Looks like they had a custom FAQ on top of normal rules for that.

The NOVA Open is not ITC based, they support full on Deathstar stuff D:

Well I mean they use ITC as a base ruleset.. so i wouldn't say it's completely left field ha.

Anyway that's not tau tactics anyway haha. Moving on...

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
Not going to lie, I love the Ghostkeel model, and the Stealthsuits, so having an excuse to run the ladder with the former is always good.

I wouldn't say the Collider is pointless, although I much prefer the CIR. Sure, it will function as a Fusion Blaster against tanks, since like you said it probably won't hit more than one with a blast, but against non-tank targets it's still a S8, AP 1, blast weapon, which can have its uses against things with a 2+ save, especially when it ignore cover and functions as a blast so the to hit isn't as bad. Basically it's probably better against Invis Deathstars than tanks.

One possible use for the Fusion Collider would be to hit some Termies as soon as they deep strike (if you have EWO on your 'keel). They will be nice and bunched up, so if the scatter gods are with you, the terminator unit in question will be neutered. Also good against Daemon/KDK summoning (that fresh unit of Flesh Hounds won't be so scary anymore ). Still, the Raker is a better choice as it is good even if your opponent's models are spread out.

I was thinking more along the lines of Centstars, but yea same basic idea D:. The CIR is probably the better choice as a whole, but it does do something rather redundant considering how much missile pod goodness Tau has as a whole, and the Collider is still a second melta weapon against armour at the end of the day. I'm not saying it's better, but it's not exactly bad either when used correctly as an anti termie and their equivalents weapon that has tank busting potential, as opposed to a tank buster.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Interesting.. ok that is a huge power drop... What about templates?


The only major ITC tournament near me is NOVA. Looks like they had a custom FAQ on top of normal rules for that.

The NOVA Open is not ITC based, they support full on Deathstar stuff D:

Well I mean they use ITC as a base ruleset.. so i wouldn't say it's completely left field ha.

Anyway that's not tau tactics anyway haha. Moving on...

There are a lot of similarities between the two, but I can't seem to find anything in the Nova rules that state Invisibility gives the enemy BS1 instead of Snapfire, like it does in the ITC. Which means t hey can't be targeted at all by things like a Nova Charged Ion Accelerator, or a Ghostkeel Fusion Collider, or many other things that are significantly more effective against them but have the template stats.

It would be kind of cool if the Ghostkeel was unique in that it could just devour a template weapon as it does now.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
I agree with milkman. And so far have had decent success. I only have two ghost. But if I had three that is what the OSC is made for. BS5 ignore cover is amazing. The stealth for me are a tax or I put homing beacons on them and hide them for my reserves.


I dont see any reason to run colliders on them.. rakers handle all the armor they need to with more chances to ensure a kill. 18 shots to 3 possible explodes for max 9 (d3) hp off a super heavy...


Separate point.. ran the air superiority today in a DBC with allied OSC @2000 points. Wow. They came in killed a imperial SH bomber and a vendetta then cleaned house wiping out gaurd units and tanks. D3 free marker lights was also awesome. I didn't really need more then that honestly.

My first game used a tank with rear armor 12. Fusion and Wall of Mirrors made it a complete non issue. the blast was great against masses of people after an assault 9and of course being a mobile Tau force, he got chances at me).

As for the planes: i like them. The bomber in particular. I was a tiny bit bummed that you had to take two fighters in the Air Superiority thing, but it is still good. No one seems to like Tau planes, but I find them to be pretty useful. I do have to build the force kind of around them but thats becoming true of many formations so its not that inconvenient.

Razerous wrote:
Hokay folks, question time.

Hunter Contingent 1500pts with;

Marko (dual MP) +1 drone, 2 riptides, ghostkeel, stormsurge, 2 drone squads, 3 bare strikes and 2 pathfinder squads (spare points?)

Riptides have EWO and fusion, 1 has VT. Storm surge has EWO/VT/Shield/ABFP.Ghostkeel has EWO and Fusion.

Should I swap out the 2nd riptide (and the ghostkeel) for a OSC, bought as an AUX choice from the Hunter Cont.

Thoughts?

Yes, the OSC is nasty and will threaten most vehicles in the gsme, including knights.

 Jancoran wrote:

As for the planes: i like them. The bomber in particular. I was a tiny bit bummed that you had to take two fighters in the Air Superiority thing, but it is still good. No one seems to like Tau planes, but I find them to be pretty useful. I do have to build the force kind of around them but thats becoming true of many formations so its not that inconvenient.

The strength of the DBC in general is counter to how most people want to play Tau. Every game i have either gone first or stole the initiative with the DBC it has been an uphill battle. However, allowing my opponent to spread out, I have done great.

The air superiority formation is unfortunately the only way I see our flyers being able to do what flyers first task should be; Taking out enemy flyers. the +1BS and auto reserve pass is crucial for this. Another point... Tyranids and their flyrants. They start on the board, great our planes come in immediately next turn and you can more than likely take one down (seekers are ap3 + maybe ignore cover).

Both tau formations your playing a combo game. whether your combining BS stats or buffs or working with special reserve bonuses + doom. I found my opponents at the start hate me less playing DBC, until they realize how great a free Doom is for me, then they are back to groaning.

Also to add to the conversation, Ghostkeels could very well be one of our best anti air units.

For 150 points, you could get 6 Str7 AP4 shots (Ion Raker) with Velocity Tracker? Add in +1BS for OSC? Yes please. With this set up, you get anti-air, anti light vehicle, and anti MSU with armor 4 save or less. That is really point efficient for a unit that can basically do it all. You could go 3 crisis suits with all missiles(loner range than Ion Raker) but you couldn't make velocity tracker viable for them and risk leadership checks.

I can see the Ghostkeel becoming an auto include.

 Bach wrote:
Also to add to the conversation, Ghostkeels could very well be one of our best anti air units.

For 150 points, you could get 6 Str7 AP4 shots (Ion Raker) with Velocity Tracker? Add in +1BS for OSC? Yes please. With this set up, you get anti-air, anti light vehicle, and anti MSU with armor 4 save or less. That is really point efficient for a unit that can basically do it all. You could go 3 crisis suits with all missiles(loner range than Ion Raker) but you couldn't make velocity tracker viable for them and risk leadership checks.

I can see the Ghostkeel becoming an auto include.

You are forgetting the best part. They also get ignore cover! So no jinking!

 Bach wrote:
Also to add to the conversation, Ghostkeels could very well be one of our best anti air units.

For 150 points, you could get 6 Str7 AP4 shots (Ion Raker) with Velocity Tracker? Add in +1BS for OSC? Yes please. With this set up, you get anti-air, anti light vehicle, and anti MSU with armor 4 save or less. That is really point efficient for a unit that can basically do it all. You could go 3 crisis suits with all missiles(loner range than Ion Raker) but you couldn't make velocity tracker viable for them and risk leadership checks.

I can see the Ghostkeel becoming an auto include.

The only downside to ghostkeel being your AA platform is range.. at 24" a flyer can avoid EWO if you have it (and thus you wouldnt have ignore cover +1 BS), or just kite your ghostkeel if need be.

I think a unit of broadsides is probably a better AA platform for the range. However.... I am going to be trying out the keel with velocity trackers in a few upcoming games. We will see how it works out!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not saying it is bad... by all means any flyer in that bubble is doomed.. literally... not the DBC bonus.

Thats pretty hard to still find viable targets for the plane's guns while avoiding a 30" threat zone.

Also i would never put EWO on OSC Ghosts. Why? Mirror is the shooting phase, not a general rule - they dont ignore cover, +1bs, or hit rear armor during interceptor phase. EWO would actually hurt your OSC.

Broadsides would be better if a unit could share the velocity tracker and also be relentless.

I figured that the range of the Ion Raker wouldn't be an issue since the Ghostkeel would probably be up the field, well within range of an opponents table edge by the time flyers came onto the board.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Thats pretty hard to still find viable targets for the plane's guns while avoiding a 30" threat zone.

Also i would never put EWO on OSC Ghosts. Why? Mirror is the shooting phase, not a general rule - they dont ignore cover, +1bs, or hit rear armor during interceptor phase. EWO would actually hurt your OSC.

Actually a really valid point. You may have just freed up 20 points in my list lol

 luke1705 wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Thats pretty hard to still find viable targets for the plane's guns while avoiding a 30" threat zone.

Also i would never put EWO on OSC Ghosts. Why? Mirror is the shooting phase, not a general rule - they dont ignore cover, +1bs, or hit rear armor during interceptor phase. EWO would actually hurt your OSC.

Actually a really valid point. You may have just freed up 20 points in my list lol

That's why I still believe Missilesides or a Nova Charged HBC Riptide with Velocity Tracker are our best AA options. Missilesides can get away with not using Velocity Tracker because of their Twin-Linked nature and Nova Charged HBC... Well that's self explanatory.

24" is half a standard table if you are center line, or pretty much the entire table if you have two to three Ghostkeels on skywatch.

SJ

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Thats pretty hard to still find viable targets for the plane's guns while avoiding a 30" threat zone.

Also i would never put EWO on OSC Ghosts. Why? Mirror is the shooting phase, not a general rule - they don't ignore cover, +1bs, or hit rear armor during interceptor phase. EWO would actually hurt your OSC.

On your second point i would argue it completely depends on your list and meta. With so many marine players and reserves coming in. And just yesterday I played guard, deepstriking veterans with ap3 ammo.. came in right in my 12" bubble. already popped both countermeasures 1 on a 20 shot twin linked punisher cannon that was within my 12" (some flyer vendetta maybe idk) and the other on a squad of wyverns... alot of dice just add up on 3+ saves.

Point is.. those 10 points allowed me to take out 10 more troops before they died that turn. For 10 points I will buy it every time. its just too good not to have as a threat to your opponent.

I think it is easy on the internet to underestimate ranges. Look at Grey Knights. "only" 24" range turns out to be a lot by the time they dominate the center of the table round 2!

The biggest issue for a Ghostkeel with a VT is that fliers aren't that common, everything else about it is good enough or better.

Yeah, fliers are so rare in my meta i can usually handle them either by broadsides or dumping some ML onto them so my hammerhead can hit'm (yes, that works. And it feels glorious lol)

So according to the ITC if you run Stormsurges you can just charge them in to great success against most armies. Has anyone tried this?

It does make sense as multiple Stormsurges stomping is probably going to kill everything it touches, and the way most people play against Tau is to try to charge them, so it does work in theory.

 Tinkrr wrote:
So according to the ITC if you run Stormsurges you can just charge them in to great success against most armies. Has anyone tried this?

It does make sense as multiple Stormsurges stomping is probably going to kill everything it touches, and the way most people play against Tau is to try to charge them, so it does work in theory.

I haven't tried it yet, but Frankie from Frontline gaming utilizes this strategy all the time. The stops totally bypass a lot of the stength of these deathstars.

DirtyDeeds wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
So according to the ITC if you run Stormsurges you can just charge them in to great success against most armies. Has anyone tried this?

It does make sense as multiple Stormsurges stomping is probably going to kill everything it touches, and the way most people play against Tau is to try to charge them, so it does work in theory.

I haven't tried it yet, but Frankie from Frontline gaming utilizes this strategy all the time. The stops totally bypass a lot of the stength of these deathstars.

Yea, in the ITC invisibility does nothing against Stomp really.

The shooting of the Stormsurge is really strong, but you can also alpha strike the D missile turn one, so you're more free to just go in and stomp it up, and it's not like their weapons outside of the D Missiles are that impressive against strong units that fail to stomp. Plus we've always wanted something that can melee, and stomping with something as resilient as the Stormsurge is pretty good.

Tough 6 and 3+ armor is still Tough 6 and 3+ armor. I lost my Stormsurge in its inaugural game after one turn of shooting. So shooting high powered stuff into it is not a terribad idea over engaging it in melee.

The thing to remember is that there are non-Stormsurges you can hide on close combat with too. Taking safe harbor there on the Tau's turn isnt a bad idea if you can pull it off and you're not too excited about engaging it in melee.

As a Tau General i just love the idea of stomping into a unit with something. That the Tau even have a unit that dares is kinda neat.

If you're taking a Stormsurge into CC, you might consider the Blastcannon instead of the Pulse Driver. Getting close to something and then hitting it with a D shot is nifty.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
If you're taking a Stormsurge into CC, you might consider the Blastcannon instead of the Pulse Driver. Getting close to something and then hitting it with a D shot is nifty.

Pretty much how I would run them.

SJ

Saw the new Tau list that the Frontline Gaming guys put together.

I believe it was...

CAD: min warriors, Mark'O and 8 marker drones, 2 Stormsurges
+ Riptide wing.

What do you guys think of this list? He said that he has won 3/3 of his test games against "good" lists.

I'm skeptical. I think the riptide wing will be an auto include at the competitive level.. but i am not sure that his list is as unbeatable as their article made it out to seem.

Cheers!

That sounds like a list that needs to table your opponent to win, since it has very few things to score. Riptide wing is technically 3 things but they have to be close enough where i'd be surprised if they cover more than 2 things, and a Mark'O without Tankmander statlines wouldnt be there the entire game. The moment they get a bad jump and dont get behind cover, all eyes on him to get rid of that drone squad.

Flipside

Damn killy. Thats a lot of firepower and durability. Until he faces a gravspam list that is.

Also im a little fuzzy on stomp rules, but its NOT considered a D attack right? That would make necrons a pain in the ass.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
That sounds like a list that needs to table your opponent to win, since it has very few things to score. Riptide wing is technically 3 things but they have to be close enough where i'd be surprised if they cover more than 2 things, and a Mark'O without Tankmander statlines wouldnt be there the entire game. The moment they get a bad jump and dont get behind cover, all eyes on him to get rid of that drone squad.

Flipside

Damn killy. Thats a lot of firepower and durability. Until he faces a gravspam list that is.

Also im a little fuzzy on stomp rules, but its NOT considered a D attack right? That would make necrons a pain in the ass.

Yeah stomp has its own table.. i believe tho that a roll of a 6 "removes the model from play" still however. I never have success with stomps.. idk if thats just me or what haha

Ive only done it once, and i rolled a 1 after getting a D1 lol