Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
That sounds like a list that needs to table your opponent to win, since it has very few things to score. Riptide wing is technically 3 things but they have to be close enough where i'd be surprised if they cover more than 2 things, and a Mark'O without Tankmander statlines wouldnt be there the entire game. The moment they get a bad jump and dont get behind cover, all eyes on him to get rid of that drone squad.

Flipside

Damn killy. Thats a lot of firepower and durability. Until he faces a gravspam list that is.

Also im a little fuzzy on stomp rules, but its NOT considered a D attack right? That would make necrons a pain in the ass.

Yeah stomp has its own table.. i believe tho that a roll of a 6 "removes the model from play" still however. I never have success with stomps.. idk if thats just me or what haha

That's correct, a roll of a 6 on the stomp table days removed from play, so it's better than D. That's why 2 Stormsurges is so amazing in combat, it's literally D6 stomps, which has a 1/6 chance to remove something from play. Give them some shield generators and they'll be able to go toe to tor with all but the strongest melee contenders.

But there are units you should avoid;
Str8-10, especially if it's at initiative (most other super heavies, melee centurions, thunder hammer whatever, etc.)
Instant death enmasse, so Grey Knights.

Course i guess the old necron problem of reanimation against "removed from play" doesnt exist since now it behaves like FNP. Im used to necron players trying to reanimate after my SAG vaporizes them - which is now null and void on 2 accounts i guess lol (SAG is StrD now on boxcars and reanimate is basically FNP)

Main opponent i face is necrons, since my friend had to sell his space wolves to pay rent. Long story.
God i hate reanimation lol

Stormsurges stomping is certainly a good thing to remember. If your lines are getting overrun, you may have to stick the big fella in the trenches and let him go to work. That said, I can't think of a whole lot of other scenarios when I'd want my Stormsurge duking it out instead of tossing out 8+8d6 s5 shots and 4 pie plates (ABFP and pulse driver) per turn.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
That sounds like a list that needs to table your opponent to win, since it has very few things to score. Riptide wing is technically 3 things but they have to be close enough where i'd be surprised if they cover more than 2 things, and a Mark'O without Tankmander statlines wouldnt be there the entire game. The moment they get a bad jump and dont get behind cover, all eyes on him to get rid of that drone squad.

Flipside

Damn killy. Thats a lot of firepower and durability. Until he faces a gravspam list that is.

Also im a little fuzzy on stomp rules, but its NOT considered a D attack right? That would make necrons a pain in the ass.

Yeah stomp has its own table.. i believe tho that a roll of a 6 "removes the model from play" still however. I never have success with stomps.. idk if thats just me or what haha

Sort of. Its not on a model by model bases. You roll for the entire blast marker once. So if you roll a 6 than anything under the blast marker gets removed from play.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
That sounds like a list that needs to table your opponent to win, since it has very few things to score. Riptide wing is technically 3 things but they have to be close enough where i'd be surprised if they cover more than 2 things, and a Mark'O without Tankmander statlines wouldnt be there the entire game. The moment they get a bad jump and dont get behind cover, all eyes on him to get rid of that drone squad.

Flipside

Damn killy. Thats a lot of firepower and durability. Until he faces a gravspam list that is.

Also im a little fuzzy on stomp rules, but its NOT considered a D attack right? That would make necrons a pain in the ass.

Yeah stomp has its own table.. i believe tho that a roll of a 6 "removes the model from play" still however. I never have success with stomps.. idk if thats just me or what haha

Sort of. Its not on a model by model bases. You roll for the entire blast marker once. So if you roll a 6 than anything under the blast marker gets removed from play.

Hmm interesting. That seems like it can swing both extremes. I think what I have seen in my group.. we just count the "hits" under all the stomps, then just roll and remove models where necessary. Maybe that is a "fast dice" approach.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
That sounds like a list that needs to table your opponent to win, since it has very few things to score. Riptide wing is technically 3 things but they have to be close enough where i'd be surprised if they cover more than 2 things, and a Mark'O without Tankmander statlines wouldnt be there the entire game. The moment they get a bad jump and dont get behind cover, all eyes on him to get rid of that drone squad.

Flipside

Damn killy. Thats a lot of firepower and durability. Until he faces a gravspam list that is.

Also im a little fuzzy on stomp rules, but its NOT considered a D attack right? That would make necrons a pain in the ass.

Yeah stomp has its own table.. i believe tho that a roll of a 6 "removes the model from play" still however. I never have success with stomps.. idk if thats just me or what haha

Sort of. Its not on a model by model bases. You roll for the entire blast marker once. So if you roll a 6 than anything under the blast marker gets removed from play.

Hmm interesting. That seems like it can swing both extremes. I think what I have seen in my group.. we just count the "hits" under all the stomps, then just roll and remove models where necessary. Maybe that is a "fast dice" approach.

Following BRB you do each blast (stomp) like I mentioned though. It can make a big difference

What he means is its a model by model basis under each blast.

Each blast has a separate effect, but the models under that specific blast suffer the same effect.

D3 stomps, roll a 2. One result is a total wiff, all models under the first blast are unharmed. Other blast rolls a 6, all those models under THAT blast are removed.

I've always been enamored with DE covens, for some reason, and it occurred to me that a Corpsethief Claw would mesh exceptionally well with our new book. One of Covens' huge weaknesses is that vehicles - Knights, in particular - eat them alive. Fortunately, we have things like the OSC that mow down knights like nothing. They also can't deal with flyers well, while we crush them. On the flip side, Coven units are tough as nails and can bust heads in combat with the best of them. Through multi assault and board control, they can also handle MSU pretty effectively, while Tau murder tough priority targets.

In short, you can have an OSC, a CTC, and a Riptide Wing with all appropriate upgrades in 1850 pts. You've got tools to deal with most of the competitive lists I can think of. Knights are no problem. MSU marines is probably damn close to an auto-win with the CTC churning out free VPs all game. You have enough cover ignoring to flummox Ravenwing and AdMech. You have a lot of intercepting and low-AP fire for deathstars and can probably tank them in combat with the CTC for at least a few rounds. Wraith Knights will be a pain, as always, and with that few models, grav is going to hurt if you can't wipe it off the board fast enough.

It's not a perfect list, but it does seem pretty darn strong. I'm going to borrow my friend's taloses and crush him with them.

I have to second that, in not having any real success in using Stomp. Yeah it has potential but I would prefer to stay out of CC and shoot instead.

I watched Frontline Gaming's Frankie try and use the Stormsurge 's Stomp attack which did nothing from stopping the wraiths from raping it. Nothing excites me about Stomp, especially when I have Str D missiles and a ridiculous amount of shooting. I think it is just there to add some risk in charging the unit.

I would go so far as to maybe bubble wrap the Surge with troops, especially if you're only going to run one.

I agree, stormsurge stomps are nice backup in case in get swarmed, but it's not a battle plan. Many units can end the surge in CC before he even gets to try stomping.

The important thing about stomps is the possibility of rolling a six. Some things in this game simply can't be destroyed by shooting, even by tau, but a stomp six ignores everything, even a rerollable 2+ invul save. The opponent will think twice about going near a stormsurge when it can remove his whole deathstar, even if it usually won't.

Problem is nothing that the Tau cant shoot to death is going to get stomped without bad dice luck because they are going to murder the surge before he gets to stomp.

Stormsurge isnt hard to hurt. T6 3+ 4++ FNP 8W only means he doesnt die to dumb crap, but any dedication to the cause can remove him pretty quick. He will never die to ID and can eat several plasma/grav shots before going down. But if you hit him with a ton of attacks that wound reliably, hes going down a lot faster than people think he will.

Say for instance he charges a group of wolfriders from spacewolves with their special fancy claws. They wound reliably (i think theyre S5/6), attack like crazy, reroll wounds, and are AP3. They will eat him before he can stomp, assuming the 4++ gods arent feeling merciful that is. They would also be a good candidate to stomp since they have a 3++ save. They might not be able to shave 8 wounds on their own, but if youre intending to charge something with 8 wounds thats immune to ID you are going to want to shoot it first to make sure it dies.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Problem is nothing that the Tau cant shoot to death is going to get stomped without bad dice luck because they are going to murder the surge before he gets to stomp.

Stormsurge isnt hard to hurt. T6 3+ 4++ FNP 8W only means he doesnt die to dumb crap, but any dedication to the cause can remove him pretty quick. He will never die to ID and can eat several plasma/grav shots before going down. But if you hit him with a ton of attacks that wound reliably, hes going down a lot faster than people think he will.

Say for instance he charges a group of wolfriders from spacewolves with their special fancy claws. They wound reliably (i think theyre S5/6), attack like crazy, reroll wounds, and are AP3. They will eat him before he can stomp, assuming the 4++ gods arent feeling merciful that is. They would also be a good candidate to stomp since they have a 3++ save. They might not be able to shave 8 wounds on their own, but if youre intending to charge something with 8 wounds thats immune to ID you are going to want to shoot it first to make sure it dies.

Well of course, while Stomp adds and interesting tool to the Tau aresenal, the player must be smart in when to use it. I won't charge a Wolfatar at full strength, I'll shoot it as best as I can.

The "Stompsurge" is the one with the D-shotgun, so you can Stomp whatever survived the D.

SJ

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Problem is nothing that the Tau cant shoot to death is going to get stomped without bad dice luck because they are going to murder the surge before he gets to stomp.

Stormsurge isnt hard to hurt. T6 3+ 4++ FNP 8W only means he doesnt die to dumb crap, but any dedication to the cause can remove him pretty quick. He will never die to ID and can eat several plasma/grav shots before going down. But if you hit him with a ton of attacks that wound reliably, hes going down a lot faster than people think he will.

Say for instance he charges a group of wolfriders from spacewolves with their special fancy claws. They wound reliably (i think theyre S5/6), attack like crazy, reroll wounds, and are AP3. They will eat him before he can stomp, assuming the 4++ gods arent feeling merciful that is. They would also be a good candidate to stomp since they have a 3++ save. They might not be able to shave 8 wounds on their own, but if youre intending to charge something with 8 wounds thats immune to ID you are going to want to shoot it first to make sure it dies.

Assuming you are wounding 4's and hitting on 3's (WS2?)

70 Attacks goes down to 47 hits. This would wound 24 times. 12 wounds would get past the 4++. 8 would get past FNP. Dead Stormsurge. Also I'm rounding up on each step, so its minorly favourable against the stormsurge (by like .5 wounds).

That is 70 attacks that hit on 3's (so WS4 vs WS2?), wound on 4's (str6) and are AP3.

If we assume a 5-attack model, that's 14 models. Also appreciate re-rolls to wound, to hit or a higher Str will much improve these numbers.

Seems pretty hard to kill, to me?

(However, by merely tieing the stormsurge up in CC with durable fearless units, is as-good-as).

Compare that to any other GMC, its damn easy to kill.
I never said it was impossible to kill i simply said its really hard to remove rapidly without D weapons. A stormsurge shouldnt die in 1 turn unless you dump a TON of firepower, D weapons, or ID weapons on it, but killing it in 2 turns is pretty feasible without such firepower.

Surge is killable, but still tough as nails.

Razerous wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Problem is nothing that the Tau cant shoot to death is going to get stomped without bad dice luck because they are going to murder the surge before he gets to stomp.

Stormsurge isnt hard to hurt. T6 3+ 4++ FNP 8W only means he doesnt die to dumb crap, but any dedication to the cause can remove him pretty quick. He will never die to ID and can eat several plasma/grav shots before going down. But if you hit him with a ton of attacks that wound reliably, hes going down a lot faster than people think he will.

Say for instance he charges a group of wolfriders from spacewolves with their special fancy claws. They wound reliably (i think theyre S5/6), attack like crazy, reroll wounds, and are AP3. They will eat him before he can stomp, assuming the 4++ gods arent feeling merciful that is. They would also be a good candidate to stomp since they have a 3++ save. They might not be able to shave 8 wounds on their own, but if youre intending to charge something with 8 wounds thats immune to ID you are going to want to shoot it first to make sure it dies.

Assuming you are wounding 4's and hitting on 3's (WS2?)

70 Attacks goes down to 47 hits. This would wound 24 times. 12 wounds would get past the 4++. 8 would get past FNP. Dead Stormsurge. Also I'm rounding up on each step, so its minorly favourable against the stormsurge (by like .5 wounds).

That is 70 attacks that hit on 3's (so WS4 vs WS2?), wound on 4's (str6) and are AP3.

If we assume a 5-attack model, that's 14 models. Also appreciate re-rolls to wound, to hit or a higher Str will much improve these numbers.

Seems pretty hard to kill, to me?

(However, by merely tieing the stormsurge up in CC with durable fearless units, is as-good-as).

Sure but if i was your opponent I would not charge it with something that wasn't efficient in slaying large creatures. Grey Knights.. THSS termies.. boneswords.. other melee GCs .. knights.. the list goes on about all the things that can take it out in combat.

i want to ripple fire my SMS for 16 shots!

I also *want* a Stormsurge, ghostkeel, possibly an OSC and a Hunter Contingent.

Sigh

So how many marker lights is a good idea in 1500pts? Likely to include a stormtide, then healthy measures of the other 'big' suits.

I'm actually a bit concerned with the Stormsurge's durability, honestly. A healthy dose of grav from cent star, sky hammer, kataphrons, etc. has a pretty good chance of taking one out in a single round of shooting, assuming you don't spring for a shield generator. You can't just set him up and expect him to blaze away with impunity all game. My kingdom for conveniently-placed ruins!

As for markers, my personal aim is to have enough to buff the Stormsurge for 2 turns. That should be plenty of time to get all the D missiles off at suitable targets. Any marking beyond that is gravy. It depends on what your marker source is going to be and if you're running a HC (more +BS meander less marker need), but maybe 1 unit of drones with a BS 5 drones controller, 3-4 Tetras, or 2-3 min units of Pathfinders should be plenty. You can also consider running the drone network formation, if you like. You wouldn't need all 4 units to be Marker Drones, but if you have the points, it's a good option.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I'm actually a bit concerned with the Stormsurge's durability, honestly. A healthy dose of grav from cent star, sky hammer, kataphrons, etc. has a pretty good chance of taking one out in a single round of shooting, assuming you don't spring for a shield generator. You can't just set him up and expect him to blaze away with impunity all game. My kingdom for conveniently-placed ruins!

As for markers, my personal aim is to have enough to buff the Stormsurge for 2 turns. That should be plenty of time to get all the D missiles off at suitable targets. Any marking beyond that is gravy. It depends on what your marker source is going to be and if you're running a HC (more +BS meander less marker need), but maybe 1 unit of drones with a BS 5 drones controller, 3-4 Tetras, or 2-3 min units of Pathfinders should be plenty. You can also consider running the drone network formation, if you like. You wouldn't need all 4 units to be Marker Drones, but if you have the points, it's a good option.

I think the consensus is; always spring for the shield generator. If you don't, it can be hard countered. Killing 8 marines with FNP with 3 grav-cents (re-roll to hit, re-roll to wound) is predicable. However killing 16 marines.. well takes twice as long + importantly it extends the Storm's survival past the threshold of one-turn of shooting, allowing it to annihilate the 'counter' & continue fighting.

Well worth the 50pts, when you consider what you would do against one.. and how much harder that 4++ makes it to kill.

I guess 6 drones @ BS3 will give me +1BS & ignores cover. That's your general metric of usefulness.

If you dont pay the 50pts for a shield gen, you are wasting your time on the surge.
In fact, i dont even know how you would load it out other than Shield Gens + EWO + Adv Targeting Systems. Being a GMC, it doesnt need Targetlocks even if you take them in squads since obviously if it can splitfire its own guns it ignores firing at the same unit rules, it cant take VRTs, it already has Stims built in, and it cant fire Overwatch so CF is pointless. One could argue the beacon things that literally nobody ever takes to let outflanks come in from a specific board edge, but what the heck outflanks in our dex besides kroot? lol

Gravs wound on 3s because of armor 3, so theres that perk, but its still a ton of wounds. Without the shield, you are banking on FNP luck - which isnt very reliable against so many wounds. The 4++ will on average cut the wounds in half.

Gravs are designed to murder MCs because of their high armor value by ignoring their toughness. Theyre bound to kick a surge's butt. However, they have more odds at taking out a Riptide or a Ghost (with ignores cover) than taking out a Surge because of the 4++ AND fnp. Riptides have a 5++ and i'd be surprised if anyone puts shields on a ghost for 50pts.

However if you have grav threats, your firewarriors should be bubblewrapping the surge to prevent droppods from being right next to the surge. Furthermore, the surge should always have EWO - he can easily, EASILY mess up any grav droppod and possibly two of them before they get to fire. His blast doesnt have Gets Hot unlike the Riptide, and it ID's centurions.

Also in regards to the Marker support, i would ideally intend to mark up 2 targets for the surge, dont try and fully optimize by firing all 4 missiles at 4 different targets. Remember they are NOT seekers, so 1 ML = D strength profile, but its still BS3 and doesnt ignore cover. You need 5 MLs to safely fire these D missiles to hit on 2s and ignore cover. Yes i know results of 6 ignore cover and invuls, but guess what 2-5 doesnt and still kills most targets.

Shifting gears a little, is taking Pathfinders for their heavy weapons a viable tactic? With markerlights being less important because of the bonus from the Hunter Contingent, might it be viable to take 4-man Pathfinder teams with three special weapons and use them a bit like Space Marine Devastators (only cheaper and squishier)?

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Shifting gears a little, is taking Pathfinders for their heavy weapons a viable tactic? With markerlights being less important because of the bonus from the Hunter Contingent, might it be viable to take 4-man Pathfinder teams with three special weapons and use them a bit like Space Marine Devastators (only cheaper and squishier)?

The problem is that you can get their strengths in other, more durable, and more maneuverable platforms, i.e. Crisis Suits, Riptides, etc.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Shifting gears a little, is taking Pathfinders for their heavy weapons a viable tactic? With markerlights being less important because of the bonus from the Hunter Contingent, might it be viable to take 4-man Pathfinder teams with three special weapons and use them a bit like Space Marine Devastators (only cheaper and squishier)?

There's potentially a place for it, but it would require some very hard testing and list sculpting. The biggest problem is that they're very expensive points wise, but they are actually rather solid weapons. I feel like they might work with the Ethereal formation, since that will help a lot with their moral and give them a FNP save.

The weapons on pathfinders are fine, theyre actually pretty strong. Problem is they become very expensive and die really easy. Pathfinders are already marked for death before any other unit because of the ML threat, the guns/drones just add to that threat. I despise pathfinders in general because they die so freakin quick. Even if i hide them behind my army and in Ruins cover during nightfighting, they still tend to die first turn (or get wittled down to 1-2 models) unless i keep them out of sight entirely, which defeats the point of them since i cant ML through a rock. Ive had ONE game where they didnt in the past few months, and oddly enough that was also a game where i somehow didnt care if my ML were alive still lol

I was seriously hoping they'd allow our Firewarrior Shas'uis to take one Railrifle or Ionrifle per squad, even if it was a hyked price. They can actually use those weapons reliably, pathfinders really cant.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Shifting gears a little, is taking Pathfinders for their heavy weapons a viable tactic? With markerlights being less important because of the bonus from the Hunter Contingent, might it be viable to take 4-man Pathfinder teams with three special weapons and use them a bit like Space Marine Devastators (only cheaper and squishier)?

This is how I play them.

 Jancoran wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Shifting gears a little, is taking Pathfinders for their heavy weapons a viable tactic? With markerlights being less important because of the bonus from the Hunter Contingent, might it be viable to take 4-man Pathfinder teams with three special weapons and use them a bit like Space Marine Devastators (only cheaper and squishier)?

This is how I play them.

Is it effective? Or do they usually just die horribly on the first turn? Seriously, I am curious. I would think they might make a fine distraction unit. Just put them in cover so they get a sorta decent save. They might be a unit that is too small to want to waste shots on but too deadly to ignore.

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Shifting gears a little, is taking Pathfinders for their heavy weapons a viable tactic? With markerlights being less important because of the bonus from the Hunter Contingent, might it be viable to take 4-man Pathfinder teams with three special weapons and use them a bit like Space Marine Devastators (only cheaper and squishier)?

This is how I play them.

Is it effective? Or do they usually just die horribly on the first turn? Seriously, I am curious. I would think they might make a fine distraction unit. Just put them in cover so they get a sorta decent save. They might be a unit that is too small to want to waste shots on but too deadly to ignore.

Well here again, i have an example of their excellent use:
Using Pathfinders as sledgehammers

As you will see, I never asked them to fire a single marker light.

1) Watched a recent MWG vid (i know grain of salt but they are enjoyable to watch). Kid mentioned the infiltration cadre allowed entire army to come in his next turn. Thus going 2nd on turn 1, it was possible to have everything come in on turn 1. Is this the actual wording of the formation? Is this a viable enough tactic (first blood mitigation) that the formation is better than it seems?

2) We are all talking about a 50pt shield generator for the SS. Would it be more viable to pay 60pts for a tau defense line? rules state any model within 1" gets the save, I assume that extends to MCs as well. Plus you get the benefit of reflecting wounds back.. and a reroll 1s platform for something else.

I'm planning on do that with an Infiltration Cadre. I want the formation to be small as possible anyway, might give them special weapons to attract even more fire