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X078 wrote:
The Ranged Support Cadre is where it's at with the Special Weapons Pathfinders. Combine with Drone-Net VX formation (Marker Lights / Guns) and Ghostkeel Wing for mobility/cover where/when needed.

Yep and then you have broadsides that can overwatch at full range.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Bach wrote:
I'm not sure if Outflanking is a good reason to justify Pathfinders. Outflanking can still place Pathfinders on a table edge that is highly unfavorable. You can say that Deepstrike can scatter but you can still factor in scattering probability when placing your marker for Scatter. With Outflanking, you can have a 1/3 chance that your Outflanking move puts you on a table edge where you don't want to be.

Ultimately, I think Deepstrike still gives you more control on where your units can come in. The Jump-shoot-jump mobility from crisis suits is a bonus too.

Also consider that Pathfinders are Leadership 7, if I am not mistaken, while Crisis Suits are 8. That alone is a good reason to consider investing points in suits over Pathfinders.

Consider as well that other players are pretty much trained, at this point, to attack sources of markerlights when playing against Tau, making Pathfinders prime targets. If I know that Pathfinders will be a priority target and easy to kill, to boot, I really don't have an incentive to invest heavily into their options.

Quite honestly, Pathfinders are nice little Distraction Carnifexes for us. I can't remember playing any games where I played Pathfinders and they were never focused down by an opponent. Every time they are on the table, opponents make for a bee line right to them. Your opponent will likely prioritize Pathfinders over Stormsurges, Riptides, Ghostkeels, etc.

Knowing that, placing bare bone units of Pathfinders around the table might be a good way to give other of our units opportunities to score points. That seems like a better use for them, as opposed to using them for their heavy weapons and shooting.

The Pathfinders arent markerlights. But if the enemy wants ot come backwards and maaaaaaaaybe get close enough to fire ENOUGH atthem then sure. But outside of rapid fire range most of the time, the Pathfinders will not initially find it difficult to find cover when they enter, the Devilfish provides it also and obscures vision a great deal.

The link I offered shows the way in which they can be optimally used. Its a text book case, although certainly there are others.

As was pointed out, they arent the same as Crisis teams in really, any important way. the only thing tricky about Pathfinders is learning to use them and learning to trust in them.

Enemies often do not sense their peril when it comes to Pathfinders. i have found that to be very true. They dont panic or make special dispensation for their sudden appearance like they might other units. Counting on that isnt a strategy, but it is noteworthy enough to mention.

I began using them when i realized just how silly fragile the Crisis teams prove to be. They can so sqiftly be reduced in functionality that I got to the point of using Monat suits quite frequently. As i paired them down, it gave me more points to experiment in other areas and when they made the Rail rifle RAPID FIRE? Holy crap. I saw possibilities galore.

So try them in this role. Again that link really will kind of illustrate their usefulnesss and utility and oncer a quadrant is cleared, there are only so many turns in the game. The enemy cannot be everywhere. the idea behind them is to help absolutely clear a quadrant and then roll the flank.

I watched the video that you referenced and although it is always a pleasure to watch Wave Serpents go down, the Eldar player made poor tactical decisions by positioning models on the table sides when he knew there were Outflanking enemy units in reserve. The Eldar player also did not move his Fire Prism out of the Pathfinder's range, or LoS, after the Wave Serpent on the right side of board was destroyed? I mean come on, that's basic. I wish I had the luxury of Eldar players who would let me Tee-off on them but I don't. But as I looked at the video more, I realized that even a basic unit of Pathfinders could have popped the rear armor of the Wave serpent without the extra drones or rail guns. A unit of 9 regular Pathfinders could have statistically done the same thing, for only 99 points. The only thing I saw the rail guns do was kill a fire prism from range, a Fire Prism which shouldn't have been sitting out in the open nearby.


Using maxed out Pathfinders with the rail guns still seems crazy to me ( and as the video showed, one of those pricey Pathfinder units, the one on the left table edge, did not make their points back before dying).

I 'm not against trying to use Pathfinders with maxed out rail guns, but I'm just really skeptical. If I add rail guns, I'd rather have more Pathfinder units with maybe a rail gun each as opposed to fewer pricier units that are maxed out with drones, rail, etc. Considering that I'll be running a Stormsurge for a while, I am trying to augment that unit with having more units, having my points spread out, and maybe having more opportunities for Coordinated Firepower.

 Bach wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Bach wrote:
I'm not sure if Outflanking is a good reason to justify Pathfinders. Outflanking can still place Pathfinders on a table edge that is highly unfavorable. You can say that Deepstrike can scatter but you can still factor in scattering probability when placing your marker for Scatter. With Outflanking, you can have a 1/3 chance that your Outflanking move puts you on a table edge where you don't want to be.

Ultimately, I think Deepstrike still gives you more control on where your units can come in. The Jump-shoot-jump mobility from crisis suits is a bonus too.

Also consider that Pathfinders are Leadership 7, if I am not mistaken, while Crisis Suits are 8. That alone is a good reason to consider investing points in suits over Pathfinders.

Consider as well that other players are pretty much trained, at this point, to attack sources of markerlights when playing against Tau, making Pathfinders prime targets. If I know that Pathfinders will be a priority target and easy to kill, to boot, I really don't have an incentive to invest heavily into their options.

Quite honestly, Pathfinders are nice little Distraction Carnifexes for us. I can't remember playing any games where I played Pathfinders and they were never focused down by an opponent. Every time they are on the table, opponents make for a bee line right to them. Your opponent will likely prioritize Pathfinders over Stormsurges, Riptides, Ghostkeels, etc.

Knowing that, placing bare bone units of Pathfinders around the table might be a good way to give other of our units opportunities to score points. That seems like a better use for them, as opposed to using them for their heavy weapons and shooting.

The Pathfinders arent markerlights. But if the enemy wants ot come backwards and maaaaaaaaybe get close enough to fire ENOUGH atthem then sure. But outside of rapid fire range most of the time, the Pathfinders will not initially find it difficult to find cover when they enter, the Devilfish provides it also and obscures vision a great deal.

The link I offered shows the way in which they can be optimally used. Its a text book case, although certainly there are others.

As was pointed out, they arent the same as Crisis teams in really, any important way. the only thing tricky about Pathfinders is learning to use them and learning to trust in them.

Enemies often do not sense their peril when it comes to Pathfinders. i have found that to be very true. They dont panic or make special dispensation for their sudden appearance like they might other units. Counting on that isnt a strategy, but it is noteworthy enough to mention.

I began using them when i realized just how silly fragile the Crisis teams prove to be. They can so sqiftly be reduced in functionality that I got to the point of using Monat suits quite frequently. As i paired them down, it gave me more points to experiment in other areas and when they made the Rail rifle RAPID FIRE? Holy crap. I saw possibilities galore.

So try them in this role. Again that link really will kind of illustrate their usefulnesss and utility and oncer a quadrant is cleared, there are only so many turns in the game. The enemy cannot be everywhere. the idea behind them is to help absolutely clear a quadrant and then roll the flank.

I watched the video that you referenced and although it is always a pleasure to watch Wave Serpents go down, the Eldar player made poor tactical decisions by positioning models on the table sides when he knew there were Outflanking enemy units in reserve. The Eldar player also did not move his Fire Prism out of the Pathfinder's range, or LoS, after the Wave Serpent on the right side of board was destroyed? I mean come on, that's basic. I wish I had the luxury of Eldar players who would let me Tee-off on them but I don't. But as I looked at the video more, I realized that even a basic unit of Pathfinders could have popped the rear armor of the Wave serpent without the extra drones or rail guns. A unit of 9 regular Pathfinders could have statistically done the same thing, for only 99 points. The only thing I saw the rail guns do was kill a fire prism from range, a Fire Prism which shouldn't have been sitting out in the open nearby.


Using maxed out Pathfinders with the rail guns still seems crazy to me ( and as the video showed, one of those pricey Pathfinder units, the one on the left table edge, did not make their points back before dying).

I 'm not against trying to use Pathfinders with maxed out rail guns, but I'm just really skeptical. If I add rail guns, I'd rather have more Pathfinder units with maybe a rail gun each as opposed to fewer pricier units that are maxed out with drones, rail, etc. Considering that I'll be running a Stormsurge for a while, I am trying to augment that unit with having more units, having my points spread out, and maybe having more opportunities for Coordinated Firepower.

Agreed
26 points per pathfinder w/ rail rifle is waaaaaay to expensive on a model that has T3, L7, and a 5+ save. A unit of 5 will cost 130 points and will die to basically anything shooting at it.

 Bach wrote:

I watched the video that you referenced and although it is always a pleasure to watch Wave Serpents go down, the Eldar player made poor tactical decisions by positioning models on the table sides when he knew there were Outflanking enemy units in reserve. The Eldar player also did not move his Fire Prism out of the Pathfinder's range, or LoS, after the Wave Serpent on the right side of board was destroyed? I mean come on, that's basic. I wish I had the luxury of Eldar players who would let me Tee-off on them but I don't. But as I looked at the video more, I realized that even a basic unit of Pathfinders could have popped the rear armor of the Wave serpent without the extra drones or rail guns. A unit of 9 regular Pathfinders could have statistically done the same thing, for only 99 points. The only thing I saw the rail guns do was kill a fire prism from range, a Fire Prism which shouldn't have been sitting out in the open nearby.


Using maxed out Pathfinders with the rail guns still seems crazy to me ( and as the video showed, one of those pricey Pathfinder units, the one on the left table edge, did not make their points back before dying).

I 'm not against trying to use Pathfinders with maxed out rail guns, but I'm just really skeptical. If I add rail guns, I'd rather have more Pathfinder units with maybe a rail gun each as opposed to fewer pricier units that are maxed out with drones, rail, etc. Considering that I'll be running a Stormsurge for a while, I am trying to augment that unit with having more units, having my points spread out, and maybe having more opportunities for Coordinated Firepower.

Attacking the opponent doesnt make your case for you. Several things you're not accounting for. First, the Prism they killed was "out in the open" because it was avoiding my Fire Warriors that otherwise would have swarmed it with EMP. So no. He made no error there., He took the lesser of two evils and hoped.

Second, His Wave serpents being on the flank only mattered visually. Line of sight was an issue for the Wave Serpents so while they surely could have chosen not to fire (yeah right), the reality was that TO fire, he had to maneuver. Could he have ben farther away? Well think about it. He would have to be more than 21" from the board edge to avoid my rapid fire!!! Lol. So I mean thats an enormously narrow area to be deploying. If he had, my Fire Warriors would have done to them what the Pathfinders had to. If he flattens his butt to a board edge, it limits where he can go and his range and his line of sight.

I get that you want to make your point but this isnt the way to do it.

The video simply offers a real example of how it works. if you want to live inthe middle 24" the entire game against a Tau force that has Haywire and can outrange and outgun you... okay! The Tau Empire will appreciatively let you.

His critical error wasn't one you mentioned. he did make one and it was big, but it would be invisible to most onlookers. Still, my point stands pretty firmly atop the success it has enjoyed. And the Infiltration Cadre is probably a good way to use them also.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Agreed
26 points per pathfinder w/ rail rifle is waaaaaay to expensive on a model that has T3, L7, and a 5+ save. A unit of 5 will cost 130 points and will die to basically anything shooting at it.

I am sure they will keep that in mind while you remove your models. =)

Queston: If I kill one 16 point Marine, how much am I worth? What if I kill 2? What if I kill 4? How many am I worth then? 6?

I think You're discounting the value of successive rounds wherein the Pathfinders will get a chance to keep doing it. You say they will die to "anything". But that's not true is it? The aforementioned "anything" has to actually be present and willing. Neither of those are givens. I can almost assure you that between the Pathfinders and their friends, the most immediate threat will be erased and unit B the next closest will be weakened or non existent or uninterested.

So it will come down to whether the enemy can AND DOES find the Pathfinders enough of a reason to lose ground and retreat back to handle them and or maybe send their barrages after them. Barrages are the key threat to Pathfinders, just as STR 8 type missiles are the bane of Crisis teams. Every unit has a susceptibility to certain things. but I have pretty clearly laid out a couple posts agao the problems with pursuing Patyhfinders once they do their damage. Obviously drop pod retalitation and all kinds of things can get there and do it but thems the wages of war. Pathfinders die sometimes... but that can be said of any unit, no matter how tough or good.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
So what does the Pulse Accelerator drone provide for your units if you're going heavy on the special weapons? It seems like you'll generally have a lot less pulse weapons in the unit and you will want to be within the Carbine range anyway due to the rapid fire range of Rail Rifles.

I can maybe see trying to use the Pathfinders as powerful Carbine platforms with the Pulse Accelerator drone, almost as if they were pseudo Breachers, but I don't really understand using it in a unit with multiple Rail Rifles.

The Pulse Accelerator lets me move away from the enemy and still shoot them. It gives me the T4 for a round and it gives me an ablative wound, albeit that is sort of secondary in importance obviously. Once I have the enemy OUT of effective attack range, I want to stay effective and involved inteh game. I can approach to within 24" and still hit stuff if I have that drone which is still too far to charge. Jump troops dont mind 18" range but they do mind 24"

Ok, so what's your squad load out for that unit? As in what does the unit look like on an army list?

I personally made the choice to go with more Pathfinders because the T3, while very relevant, is mitigated by the enemies opportunity. So my unit I currently use, more or less is this:

228pts 7 Pathfinders (EMP Grenades, 3 x Rail Rifles, Shas'ui w/2 x Shield Drones, Recon Drone, Grav Inhibitor Drone, Pulse Accelerator Drone)

Compared to, say, this:

195pts 3 Crisis Suits (TL Fusion+Fusion on all of them, 2 x Shield Drones)

So you can see I pay 33 more points.

Pathfinder Pros:
13 Pathfinder wounds vs only 5-8 (depending on what hits the Crisis team)
Scout and Outflank are risk free deployment moves. Crisis team must Deep Strike
Deep Strikes behind an enemy are quite Dangerous, an outflank is not
The Pathfinders are likely to survive the end of the game. Crisis teams operate too close ot the enemy to do that even when they do well (and they often do well)
The Pathfinders have more range.
The Pathfinders can jump in a transport if they get in trouble.
The Pathfinders can cut a tank to ribbons if throwing their Haywire and firing into the rear with their STR 6 AP 1 doesn't get the job done. Crisis teams must do the best they can with fists if their Fusions don't. Both cases dont come up often but its worth mentioning.
Despite all the damage the unit can do it doubles as Markerlight unit which Crisis teams can never do.
The Recon Drone is a huge synergy, allowing Troops to come in from the enemy board edge! Thats is an enormous advantage.



Cons:
For 33 points, you're T3 and have crappy armor which makes cover essential and positioning needs to be perfect
For 33 points, you are now losing the likely use of the Mrkerlights in favor of a more aggressive usage that doesnt synergize s well with the army (albeit really, they become what other compoents actually synergize to)
For 33 points, the Chrisis team gains JSJ, which the Pathfinders can only dream of having.


So I mean the numbers aren't really far off. Crisis Tems are sexier. I get it. But i think my experience with Pathfinders has really come around.

Underlying all my feelings about list building is a simple truth: Mobility options are essential. The more ways and times you can come onto the board, the more you control over the ebb and flow of the tide.

I don't think this is a fair comparison as you're using the Fusion Suits which are better as solo choices for tank hunting, as opposed to Plasma or Missile Suits that are much better at troop killing. Additionally you're using a twinlinked weapon which is generally not a great choice compared to two regular weapons and a support system. One of those systems can also be a positional relay, to let one of your Suits function as a Recon Drone for a lot less points, and with the ability to move, run (and shoot if you're Hunter Cad), and then assault move you don't actually need to Deep Strike if you don't want to.

However, let's approach it from a different angle, since you're not a fan of Crisis Suits, at least in this situation, let's see what else we can get for those points. At 228 points you can buy:

- A Riptide with a Stim Injector and EWO for 8 points less.
- Three Broadsides for 195 points
- Two Skyrays for 2 points more
- Five Piranhas for 28 points less


So yea, it's not exactly that Crisis Suits are significantly better, it's that there are a lot of options for that many points that can put out a lot more fire power as a whole.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Bach wrote:

I watched the video that you referenced and although it is always a pleasure to watch Wave Serpents go down, the Eldar player made poor tactical decisions by positioning models on the table sides when he knew there were Outflanking enemy units in reserve. The Eldar player also did not move his Fire Prism out of the Pathfinder's range, or LoS, after the Wave Serpent on the right side of board was destroyed? I mean come on, that's basic. I wish I had the luxury of Eldar players who would let me Tee-off on them but I don't. But as I looked at the video more, I realized that even a basic unit of Pathfinders could have popped the rear armor of the Wave serpent without the extra drones or rail guns. A unit of 9 regular Pathfinders could have statistically done the same thing, for only 99 points. The only thing I saw the rail guns do was kill a fire prism from range, a Fire Prism which shouldn't have been sitting out in the open nearby.


Using maxed out Pathfinders with the rail guns still seems crazy to me ( and as the video showed, one of those pricey Pathfinder units, the one on the left table edge, did not make their points back before dying).

I 'm not against trying to use Pathfinders with maxed out rail guns, but I'm just really skeptical. If I add rail guns, I'd rather have more Pathfinder units with maybe a rail gun each as opposed to fewer pricier units that are maxed out with drones, rail, etc. Considering that I'll be running a Stormsurge for a while, I am trying to augment that unit with having more units, having my points spread out, and maybe having more opportunities for Coordinated Firepower.

Attacking the opponent doesnt make your case for you. Several things you're not accounting for. First, the Prism they killed was "out in the open" because it was avoiding my Fire Warriors that otherwise would have swarmed it with EMP. So no. He made no error there., He took the lesser of two evils and hoped.

Second, His Wave serpents being on the flank only mattered visually. Line of sight was an issue for the Wave Serpents so while they surely could have chosen not to fire (yeah right), the reality was that TO fire, he had to maneuver. Could he have ben farther away? Well think about it. He would have to be more than 21" from the board edge to avoid my rapid fire!!! Lol. So I mean thats an enormously narrow area to be deploying. If he had, my Fire Warriors would have done to them what the Pathfinders had to. If he flattens his butt to a board edge, it limits where he can go and his range and his line of sight.

I get that you want to make your point but this isnt the way to do it.

The video simply offers a real example of how it works. if you want to live inthe middle 24" the entire game against a Tau force that has Haywire and can outrange and outgun you... okay! The Tau Empire will appreciatively let you.

His critical error wasn't one you mentioned. he did make one and it was big, but it would be invisible to most onlookers. Still, my point stands pretty firmly atop the success it has enjoyed. And the Infiltration Cadre is probably a good way to use them also.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Agreed
26 points per pathfinder w/ rail rifle is waaaaaay to expensive on a model that has T3, L7, and a 5+ save. A unit of 5 will cost 130 points and will die to basically anything shooting at it.

I am sure they will keep that in mind while you remove your models. =)

Queston: If I kill one 16 point Marine, how much am I worth? What if I kill 2? What if I kill 4? How many am I worth then? 6?

I think You're discounting the value of successive rounds wherein the Pathfinders will get a chance to keep doing it. You say they will die to "anything". But that's not true is it? The aforementioned "anything" has to actually be present and willing. Neither of those are givens. I can almost assure you that between the Pathfinders and their friends, the most immediate threat will be erased and unit B the next closest will be weakened or non existent or uninterested.

So it will come down to whether the enemy can AND DOES find the Pathfinders enough of a reason to lose ground and retreat back to handle them and or maybe send their barrages after them. Barrages are the key threat to Pathfinders, just as STR 8 type missiles are the bane of Crisis teams. Every unit has a susceptibility to certain things. but I have pretty clearly laid out a couple posts agao the problems with pursuing Patyhfinders once they do their damage. Obviously drop pod retalitation and all kinds of things can get there and do it but thems the wages of war. Pathfinders die sometimes... but that can be said of any unit, no matter how tough or good.

Hey I'm not saying he's not a good player but looking at the video, I see things that Eldar players, I play, don't do. If he was determined to stay on table edges, he could have butt up the Wave Serpents on the edge and force the Pathfinders to make side armor pen rolls instead of rear armor. The Fire Prism in question could have easily moved to it's right to avoid the fire warriors and maybe get a cover save from a wall that looks inches away. But can you see why we're talking about the Fire Prism? It allowed one of the two expensive Pathfinder units to make it's points back. And from what I see in the video, had the Fire Prism been moved and not have range or been shot by he Pathfinders, neither Pathfinder unit would have made their points back. I realized that there was a lot of other things going on in that game, that you could argue and maybe they do, and I'm not seeing it. In my opinion, you had other units doing a great job handling things while the Pathfinders did OK. And by OK, I mean that you could have spent a lot less points on them and had about the same result. Granted, it's a case for Outflank but I'm not seeing the value in the rail guns or the 40-80 points of drones in each unit.

I don't know what else to say other than the circumstances and choices made in that game do affect the point that you have been trying to make. And I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that I did not witness Pathfinders being as efficient or as effective as using them as an example would infer.

Also.. how is your rapid fire 21"... Recon drone only effects the pulse weapons I thought...??

Yea, the pulse drone specifically states pulse weapons, while the Rail Rifles are classified as Rail Weapons, so you'd still only have the 15" rapid fire range.

Even if it did, there could still be the argument that it would only give you 3" in rapid fire, not the full 6".

I think a unit of 5 pathfinders with 2 rail rifles might be ok. That's only 85 points and I think is manageable for cost and output. A recon drone makes it 113 and gives you a homing beacon if need be.

Maybe even just pathfinders with an Accelerator Drone, since Pulse Carbines with a 24" range isn't a bad deal, it's just that the Pathfinders are still a little pricey :/.

I think he was referring to threat range, that is 6" move plus 15" rapid fire. The homing beacon thing seems a bit overblown in the last 2 pages. Is it really that important to have a way to bring in your unit on the edge of the table on turn 3 or later? Considering how mobile the alternatives are (and the fact that they freaking deep strike) and that having a significant unit off the table for a third of the game kind of sucks, I'm gonna go with "no."

Sorry, I'm gonna roll with a unit that doesn't rely on my opponent ignoring it to be, at best, less effective than pretty much anything else.

MilkmanAl wrote:
I think he was referring to threat range, that is 6" move plus 15" rapid fire. The homing beacon thing seems a bit overblown in the last 2 pages. Is it really that important to have a way to bring in your unit on the edge of the table on turn 3 or later? Considering how mobile the alternatives are (and the fact that they freaking deep strike) and that having a significant unit off the table for a third of the game kind of sucks, I'm gonna go with "no."

Sorry, I'm gonna roll with a unit that doesn't rely on my opponent ignoring it to be, at best, less effective than pretty much anything else.

Well you can outflank then drop your troops within 6" for no scatter on turn 2. Since beacons don't require to be on the table at the start of the turn. so I would use it for deepstriking my broadsides in my DBC behind enemy armor.

Touché, good sir. I was under the impression the beacon had to be on the board previously to functional, but you're right.

If the beacon is that important, we do have plenty of other options like Stealth Suits (OSC) that can take the ability, and infiltrate reasonably close. There's also the option of throwing a beacon on a Crisis suit and using that, by deep striking them first, and then using them to position other deep strikers if you needed.

Really that's just the problem, the pathfinders don't do anything that we can't find in many other sources. The only real gimmick they have is their Markerlights and the ability to run 24" +movement Pulse Carbines.

problem with deepstriking the stealthsuits is if they come in the same turn as the other units, they dont get to benefit from the beacon.

Reason being, reserves happen simultaneously not one by one. Beacons have to be there before they deepstrike to be useful, but if they come in together they cant use it.

That being said, even just infiltrating stealth suits gives the deepstrikers a huge advantage. They may not get it for behind an IG tankline but they can still pop out of nowhere and get very clutch shots on marine units or midfield rear armor.

Also i will attest that a unit of pulse carbines is nothing to shake a stick at. I regularly run 5 piranhas, which dump off a unit of 10 gun drones. Those drones do a ton of damage even without marker support. Only reason they last as long as they do for me is because they are also completely a waste of time objectively, since they cant score and do not count for any kill points, so my opponents really dont want to kill them because they cant get points out of them and they cant score for me w/o a commander attached.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
problem with deepstriking the stealthsuits is if they come in the same turn as the other units, they dont get to benefit from the beacon.

Reason being, reserves happen simultaneously not one by one. Beacons have to be there before they deepstrike to be useful, but if they come in together they cant use it.

That being said, even just infiltrating stealth suits gives the deepstrikers a huge advantage. They may not get it for behind an IG tankline but they can still pop out of nowhere and get very clutch shots on marine units or midfield rear armor.

Also i will attest that a unit of pulse carbines is nothing to shake a stick at. I regularly run 5 piranhas, which dump off a unit of 10 gun drones. Those drones do a ton of damage even without marker support. Only reason they last as long as they do for me is because they are also completely a waste of time objectively, since they cant score and do not count for any kill points, so my opponents really dont want to kill them because they cant get points out of them and they cant score for me w/o a commander attached.

This is incorrect. Nowhere in the rules for Deepstriking/Reserves does it say they "arrive simultaneously". Homing beacon has ALWAYS allowed for use in the same turn it arrives on the board.

Yeah reserves happen 1 by one. Techniquly speaking you roll for a unit you place them in table.. then move to the next one. Most people just roll for all the units then place them all.

That's just another one of those things tau have that make a imperial players salty. (But where's our drop pods I say?

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Yeah reserves happen 1 by one. Techniquly speaking you roll for a unit you place them in table.. then move to the next one. Most people just roll for all the units then place them all.

That's just another one of those things tau have that make a imperial players salty. (But where's our drop pods I say?

You roll all first, and only then you move on board. Just like you need to roll all charges (and move successful ones in B2B) before resolving assault sub-phases

Well my (possibly bad) idea was to use Pathfinder special weapons in the Infiltration Cadre in conjunction with lots of deepstriking other units. Pathfinders take Recon Drones + special weapons + maybe pulse accelerator drones (possibly in Devilfish), Stealth Suits take homing beacons.

This way, the Pathfinders and Stealth Suits get into position to prepare in the desert a highway for the deepstriking units, using their special weapons at the same time. If they opponent tries to neutralize their positioninh and/or firepower, then all the reserves come in immediately.

Maybe that wouldn't work, but it's my idea.

I considered the Infiltration Cadre, too, since you could quickly go and claim objectives from the onset. It sounds good and having everything Deepstrike from reserve sounds good but there is also an alternative too. What about multiple Kroot units and the Retaliation Cadre? You'd start with less initial firepower, but ( for less points) can still infiltrate on objectives, turn 1. You are also guaranteed Deepstrike, turn 2, which includes a Riptide, Crisis suits, Commander, and Relentless Broadsides, all with +1 BS the turn they arrive. Not saying it's better but just a thought.

 Bach wrote:
I considered the Infiltration Cadre, too, since you could quickly go and claim objectives from the onset. It sounds good and having everything Deepstrike from reserve sounds good but there is also an alternative too. What about multiple Kroot units and the Retaliation Cadre? You'd start with less initial firepower, but ( for less points) can still infiltrate on objectives, turn 1. You are also guaranteed Deepstrike, turn 2, which includes a Riptide, Crisis suits, Commander, and Relentless Broadsides, all with +1 BS the turn they arrive. Not saying it's better but just a thought.

And with the allied contingent thingie they would get +1 BS with the vespids. Albeit everybody hates vespids.

 Bach wrote:
I considered the Infiltration Cadre, too, since you could quickly go and claim objectives from the onset. It sounds good and having everything Deepstrike from reserve sounds good but there is also an alternative too. What about multiple Kroot units and the Retaliation Cadre? You'd start with less initial firepower, but ( for less points) can still infiltrate on objectives, turn 1. You are also guaranteed Deepstrike, turn 2, which includes a Riptide, Crisis suits, Commander, and Relentless Broadsides, all with +1 BS the turn they arrive. Not saying it's better but just a thought.

I'd be wary of using Kroot as your only unit on the table turn 1. You want something that can really take the heat of your opponents entire army. I played a Dawnblade Detachment (with the retaliation as the core) with an Optimized Stealth Cadre against a Hunter Contingent this week. Utilizing range, and line of sight blocking terrain, I was able to deploy only my Ghostkeels and completely negated his first turn. I think I tool a single wound from Smart Missiles.

I want an all suit army, possibly with a bomb, with an XV109 as I love the model.

At 1850 I could run a normal TE Retaliation formation with a buffmander as the commander, a Drone Net formation for ML support, and a FSE CAD with Farsight as Warlord, who can deploy with the largest crisis team with the buffmander from the Retaliation formation, and bring the XV109 and a couple of OBSEC Crisis troops via the CAD.

Would this be the best way of having a Farsight bomb with an XV109, or is there a more intelligent way? Cheers!

I like the ranged support cadre with a tidewall shieldline. Shrouded on the wall gives you a 2 plus cover rerolling ones to hit and every shot saved has a chance of wounding the attacker. Makes anyone without ignores cover think twice about shooting them. Dont know if that makes them better then marker drones but, its pretty close.

For a solo Stormsurge, is the Pulse Driver Cannon or the D-Shotgun a better option? Looking to support it with a Retaliation Cadre and Optimized Stealth Cadre.

 Verviedi wrote:
For a solo Stormsurge, is the Pulse Driver Cannon or the D-Shotgun a better option? Looking to support it with a Retaliation Cadre and Optimized Stealth Cadre.

The Pulse Driver Cannon is the way to go imo. Utilizing the stabilizing anchors and allowing to it to shoot everything twice is much harder if you have the Pulse Blastcannon

 Verviedi wrote:
For a solo Stormsurge, is the Pulse Driver Cannon or the D-Shotgun a better option? Looking to support it with a Retaliation Cadre and Optimized Stealth Cadre.

If its for support, the Pulse Driver. If its for more active work, the D-shotgun.

SJ

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


I don't think this is a fair comparison as you're using the Fusion Suits which are better as solo choices for tank hunting, as opposed to Plasma or Missile Suits that are much better at troop killing.

It doesnt substantially change my point. But if you prefer an alternative comparison its fine. The outcome is the same: Crisis teams have less wounds to give, lose firepower faster, have to operate closer to the enemy etc... All my points apply to them as well.


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 Grizzyzz wrote:
Also.. how is your rapid fire 21"... Recon drone only effects the pulse weapons I thought...??

Yes. Only the Pulse weapons. Im not sure what this post is in relation to.


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 Bach wrote:


I don't know what else to say other than the circumstances and choices made in that game do affect the point that you have been trying to make. And I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that I did not witness Pathfinders being as efficient or as effective as using them as an example would infer.

To Review:

The Pathfindrs killed two Wave Serpents and a Fire Prism. they assisted in killing two Dire Avenger Squads. I'm not sure what about that sounds insignificant but I assure you: it wasn't.

You are also forgetting that they had ruled that the wave shield is a forward firing weapon along the width of the model. It had to face its target and you might not be considering that. Turning sideways would not have worked. But yes, he COULD have and if that were the case, it would have been more difficult to kill.

One of the points I did make is that people simply don't accord the threat of it enough respect, which does lead some opponents to make mistakes. I'm not really convinced that this was an example of one, but if you were inclined to call it one, then certainly its a prime example of that as well.

In a game against aan Imperial Guard player who typically finds me insane online, we decided to play. He brought an Imperial Guard army and he too did not feel as threatened by my "Markerlight caddies" when they showed up. He felt markedly different when his Leman Russ's were smoking ruins. As in all games, this was a combination of things but the Pathfinder units ended two Leman Russ Squadrons.

The list of examples that could be provided is lengthy but I know online, sometimes Batreps help you visualize what someone is saying, so I offered it. Beyond a feeling that an opponent "could have done better " (and what losing side doesn't feel that way? They all do of course) the batrep does its job.


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MilkmanAl wrote:

The homing beacon thing seems a bit overblown in the last 2 pages. Is it really that important to have a way to bring in your unit on the edge of the table on turn 3 or later?
.

That depends. Are you feeling like bringing anything onto the rear edge of the board? If so its very relevant.

In my case, i nthe army I more typically run, I have Kroot Riders and bringing them on there is very very relevant. and a creative sort could find all kinds of other uses for that. I (personally) prize mobility as its own weapon and Maelstrom makes that twice as useful.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Also.. how is your rapid fire 21"... Recon drone only effects the pulse weapons I thought...??

Yes. Only the Pulse weapons. Im not sure what this post is in relation to.

In a previous post you mentioned 21" rapid fire in regards to your railrifles. I was looking for clarification; someone mentioned you may have meant 6" move + 15" rapid fire range.

 Jancoran wrote:
As in all games, this was a combination of things but the Pathfinder units ended two Leman Russ Squadrons.

Sounds very impressive. Honestly, baffled that he would keep his rear armor showing to your pathfinders long enough to destroy two full squads. When if he turned the slightest would have basically shut that possibility down. (needing 6s with rail, and pulse would do nothing)


I don't think anyone here is saying that outflanking pathfinders with special weapons is something you should never do. I think most our just defending that is not the "best thing for the price". Like I stated.. maybe a few smaller units with only 1 or 2 special weapons. That way if they get out of position or taken out, its not a huge loss.






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In practice I usually go for more of smaller units then singular giant point sinks. When it comes to pathfinders there is just too many solutions to them. Any template weapon would annihilate them, and those are pretty easy to come by.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:


I don't think this is a fair comparison as you're using the Fusion Suits which are better as solo choices for tank hunting, as opposed to Plasma or Missile Suits that are much better at troop killing.

It doesnt substantially change my point. But if you prefer an alternative comparison its fine. The outcome is the same: Crisis teams have less wounds to give, lose firepower faster, have to operate closer to the enemy etc... All my points apply to them as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
Also.. how is your rapid fire 21"... Recon drone only effects the pulse weapons I thought...??

Yes. Only the Pulse weapons. Im not sure what this post is in relation to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bach wrote:


I don't know what else to say other than the circumstances and choices made in that game do affect the point that you have been trying to make. And I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that I did not witness Pathfinders being as efficient or as effective as using them as an example would infer.

To Review:

The Pathfindrs killed two Wave Serpents and a Fire Prism. they assisted in killing two Dire Avenger Squads. I'm not sure what about that sounds insignificant but I assure you: it wasn't.

You are also forgetting that they had ruled that the wave shield is a forward firing weapon along the width of the model. It had to face its target and you might not be considering that. Turning sideways would not have worked. But yes, he COULD have and if that were the case, it would have been more difficult to kill.

One of the points I did make is that people simply don't accord the threat of it enough respect, which does lead some opponents to make mistakes. I'm not really convinced that this was an example of one, but if you were inclined to call it one, then certainly its a prime example of that as well.

In a game against aan Imperial Guard player who typically finds me insane online, we decided to play. He brought an Imperial Guard army and he too did not feel as threatened by my "Markerlight caddies" when they showed up. He felt markedly different when his Leman Russ's were smoking ruins. As in all games, this was a combination of things but the Pathfinder units ended two Leman Russ Squadrons.

The list of examples that could be provided is lengthy but I know online, sometimes Batreps help you visualize what someone is saying, so I offered it. Beyond a feeling that an opponent "could have done better " (and what losing side doesn't feel that way? They all do of course) the batrep does its job.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MilkmanAl wrote:

The homing beacon thing seems a bit overblown in the last 2 pages. Is it really that important to have a way to bring in your unit on the edge of the table on turn 3 or later?
.

That depends. Are you feeling like bringing anything onto the rear edge of the board? If so its very relevant.

In my case, i nthe army I more typically run, I have Kroot Riders and bringing them on there is very very relevant. and a creative sort could find all kinds of other uses for that. I (personally) prize mobility as its own weapon and Maelstrom makes that twice as useful.

Thats not the point. Yes they can cause some damage. But every single one will die in one round of shooting without the opponent breaking a sweat. They are too expensive for what they are.

For example, assume you are facing another Tau player

20 fire warriors shoot not in rapid fire range.
10 hits
8.3333 wounds
assume 4+ cover = 4.167 Pathfinders dead. (~108 points)

And that is giving the pathfinders the benefit of: 4+ cover, out of rapid fire range, and no marker lights boosting the fire warriors BS or ignore cover. Change any of that and you have double the dead pathfinders.