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 Grizzyzz wrote:


Sounds very impressive. Honestly, baffled that he would keep his rear armor showing to your pathfinders long enough to destroy two full squads. .

Haywire Grenades.


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 Grizzyzz wrote:

In practice I usually go for more of smaller units then singular giant point sinks. When it comes to pathfinders there is just too many solutions to them. Any template weapon would annihilate them, and those are pretty easy to come by.

By that reasoning, we should not play 40K armor because meltas are easy to come by. We should not play Hordes because Heavy flamers are easy to come by and we shouldn't play airplanes because skyfire is easy to come by.

I don't think that really is an argument for or against.


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notredameguy10 wrote:

Thats not the point. Yes they can cause some damage. But every single one will die in one round of shooting without the opponent breaking a sweat.

Same kind of argument. No. They wont kill it without breaking a sweat. They COULD do it in one round of shooting if they had it to give. and were willing to spend it on say Pathfinders instead of...say... something on an objective. or something like a Riptide.

Armies don't come with ulimited shots, with unlimited lines of sight hanging out near the same board edge we came in on. Part of why outflanking works so well is that it lengthens the battlefield and puts a very good chunk of the enemy firepower away from you and gives you more wreckage and terrain options for cover, including your own Devilfish.

 Jancoran wrote:
Haywire Grenades.

Even more so then.. I have taken out some vehicles with haywire grenades before.. but since you can't outflank and charge in the same turn. that means that your opponent has at least 1 turn to move.. or destroy the threat.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:

In practice I usually go for more of smaller units then singular giant point sinks. When it comes to pathfinders there is just too many solutions to them. Any template weapon would annihilate them, and those are pretty easy to come by.

By that reasoning, we should not play 40K armor because meltas are easy to come by. We should not play Hordes because Heavy flamers are easy to come by and we shouldn't play airplanes because skyfire is easy to come by.

I don't think that really is an argument for or against.

Missing my point. Your pathfinder unit was 250+ points. You can bring armor in 40k because a Russ is 150 points.. bring more than one.. you can bring flyers for the same reason. Hordes is in and of itself good because again your taking a lot of a small costed unit.

Taking a unit that sometimes catches your opponent off guard, but in reality is easy to get rid of is risky. Sure it will pan out for you on occasion, but if your close enough for your pathfinders to be threatening with an effective 18" range or within haywire threat range.. then they are even more likely to be destroyed.


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Take a full squad of pathfinders with 4 rail rifles. (170 points)

they outflank and shoot at a 10 man squad of marines.
Assuming within 15" and for kicks.. lets assume no cover for marines.

6 Pulse hits, 4 rail hits -> 4 pulse wounds, 3 rail wounds -> 4 marines fall.

thats not a lot of damage outright..

assume a squad of armor av 10 in rear
6 and 4 hits respectively -> 2 glance+, 2 glance+
most likely their will be some cover so maybe a glance and a pen go through... yes the pen can explode but it might not..

going after vehicles is probably the better option from quick maths as you have a potential to inflict more first strike damage... but otherwise their offense wasn't anything out of this world

 Grizzyzz wrote:


Even more so then.. I have taken out some vehicles with haywire grenades before.. but since you can't outflank and charge in the same turn. that means that your opponent has at least 1 turn to move.. or destroy the threat.

He tried. And as I have said reperatedly, its not so "automatic" as you say. THAT is the point.


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 Grizzyzz wrote:

Missing my point. Your pathfinder unit was 250+ points. You can bring armor in 40k because a Russ is 150 points.. bring more than one.. you can bring flyers for the same reason. Hordes is in and of itself good because again your taking a lot of a small costed unit.

Taking a unit that sometimes catches your opponent off guard, but in reality is easy to get rid of is risky. Sure it will pan out for you on occasion, but if your close enough for your pathfinders to be threatening with an effective 18" range or within haywire threat range.. then they are even more likely to be destroyed.

1. It wasnt more than 250 points. So perhaps familiarizing yourself with what I said would help any retort become more effective.
2. A dead tank that's 150 points vs a unit that isn't dead for X points. Which is more valuable? So you can SAY a STRIPPED DOWN, worst version of a Leman Russ is inexpensive. Sure you can. But it doesn't bring it back from the dead.
3. You dont have to catch an opponent "off guard", though you will sometimes. That was never a REQUIREMENT for the unit to work.


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notredameguy10 wrote:

Thats not the point. Yes they can cause some damage. But every single one will die in one round of shooting without the opponent breaking a sweat. They are too expensive for what they are.

For example, assume you are facing another Tau player

20 fire warriors shoot not in rapid fire range.
10 hits
8.3333 wounds
assume 4+ cover = 4.167 Pathfinders dead. (~108 points)

And that is giving the pathfinders the benefit of: 4+ cover, out of rapid fire range, and no marker lights boosting the fire warriors BS or ignore cover. Change any of that and you have double the dead pathfinders.

Correct your math. the first ten fire warriors are shooting a tough 4 unit. The second would be firing on a tough 3 unit, as mentioned. And the wounds would be on Drones, not Pathfinders. So in essence, you have killed zero pathfinders, just SOME of the drones. They are now free to help kill the {fill in the blanks} sercond unit they were going to target..

So 1.67 unsaved wounds on the first volley. 2.08 on the second. Not QUITE 4 wounds. Which mean that you killed three Drones and put a wound on the Recon drone 75% of the time (it comes with two)..

That is the corrected math.

EDIT: also: a cleaver person who puts the two spare pathfinders among the drones in front can be at Tough 4 against both volleys!

 Jancoran wrote:

 Grizzyzz wrote:


Even more so then.. I have taken out some vehicles with haywire grenades before.. but since you can't outflank and charge in the same turn. that means that your opponent has at least 1 turn to move.. or destroy the threat.

He tried. And as I have said reperatedly, its not so "automatic" as you say. THAT is the point.


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 Grizzyzz wrote:

Missing my point. Your pathfinder unit was 250+ points. You can bring armor in 40k because a Russ is 150 points.. bring more than one.. you can bring flyers for the same reason. Hordes is in and of itself good because again your taking a lot of a small costed unit.

Taking a unit that sometimes catches your opponent off guard, but in reality is easy to get rid of is risky. Sure it will pan out for you on occasion, but if your close enough for your pathfinders to be threatening with an effective 18" range or within haywire threat range.. then they are even more likely to be destroyed.

1. It wasnt more than 250 points. So perhaps familiarizing yourself with what I said would help any retort become more effective.
2. A dead tank that's 150 points vs a unit that isn't dead for X points. Which is more valuable? So you can SAY a STRIPPED DOWN, worst version of a Leman Russ is inexpensive. Sure you can. But it doesn't bring it back from the dead.
3. You dont have to catch an opponent "off guard", though you will sometimes. That was never a REQUIREMENT for the unit to work.


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notredameguy10 wrote:

Thats not the point. Yes they can cause some damage. But every single one will die in one round of shooting without the opponent breaking a sweat. They are too expensive for what they are.

For example, assume you are facing another Tau player

20 fire warriors shoot not in rapid fire range.
10 hits
8.3333 wounds
assume 4+ cover = 4.167 Pathfinders dead. (~108 points)

And that is giving the pathfinders the benefit of: 4+ cover, out of rapid fire range, and no marker lights boosting the fire warriors BS or ignore cover. Change any of that and you have double the dead pathfinders.

Correct your math. the first ten fire warriors are shooting a tough 4 unit. The second would be firing on a tough 3 unit, as mentioned. And the wounds would be on Drones, not Pathfinders. So in essence, you have killed zero pathfinders, just SOME of the drones. They are now free to help kill the {fill in the blanks} sercond unit they were going to target..

So 1.67 unsaved wounds on the first volley. 2.08 on the second. Not QUITE 4 wounds. Which mean that you killed three Drones and put a wound on the Recon drone 75% of the time (it comes with two)..

That is the corrected math.

EDIT: also: a cleaver person who puts the two spare pathfinders among the drones in front can be at Tough 4 against both volleys!

Lol think whatever you want. Rail pathfinders are NOT good and NOT competitive. They are a waste of points compared to other units you could take instead. You can try and make up absurd situations all you want and it won't change the fact that you are shooting at T3, L7, 5+ AS models that cost 26 points a piece. Anyone can kill those all day long without a single F given.

So....this like 3 page discussion on the tactical merits (or lack thereof) of pathfinders is pretty interesting but I'm wondering what you guys think is the strongest 3-source 1850 list.

Some things I've considered:

1) Drone Formation plus OSC plus Riptide Wing (4 or 5 tides, depending on load out)

2) FSE CAD plus two OSC

3) Frankie's double stormsurge plus riptide wing list

4) FSE CAD with 1-2 stormsurges, riptide wing and drone formation

5) FSE/Tau CAD, OSC, Riptide Wing

6) Something else I haven't thought of

My personal preference would be an OSC plus a riptide wing and some kind of CAD, but I'll probably run a double OSC because I don't want to go get three riptides (that's right I own zero!)

 luke1705 wrote:
So....this like 3 page discussion on the tactical merits (or lack thereof) of pathfinders is pretty interesting but I'm wondering what you guys think is the strongest 3-source 1850 list.

Some things I've considered:

1) Drone Formation plus OSC plus Riptide Wing (4 or 5 tides, depending on load out)

2) FSE CAD plus two OSC

3) Frankie's double stormsurge plus riptide wing list

4) FSE CAD with 1-2 stormsurges, riptide wing and drone formation

5) FSE/Tau CAD, OSC, Riptide Wing

6) Something else I haven't thought of

My personal preference would be an OSC plus a riptide wing and some kind of CAD, but I'll probably run a double OSC because I don't want to go get three riptides (that's right I own zero!)

Drone net with 4x5 marker drones
Riptide wing with 5 riptides (squad of 3 with IA/EWO/TL and 2 individual with HBC/VT/ATS)
OSC w/ 3 Ghostkeels with CIR/TL FB

That would be pretty great imo.

Unless you just dont want a random formation of drones, there really is no reason to not take the Drone Net even in a Hunter Contingent list (they just dont count as Aux slots or benefit from Coord Fire). Theyre barely more expensive than the usual pathfinder units people take, but way more durable with T4 4+ save AND they can fire/move/jsj. Thats before factoring in all drones +1BS, which also works on Missile Drones (the only drone you could get Drone Controllers on that wasnt affected by it).
Furthermore, they have interceptor. One of the biggest reasons i dont like using EWO unless i absolutely have to is because i fire without marker support, since NOTHING has interceptor and markers (except the Stealthsuit Shas'ui if you really wanna do that). This is a ton of intercepting markerlights, which can easily secure the Riptide's blast on that termie blob.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Lol think whatever you want. Rail pathfinders are NOT good and NOT competitive. They are a waste of points compared to other units you could take instead. You can try and make up absurd situations all you want and it won't change the fact that you are shooting at T3, L7, 5+ AS models that cost 26 points a piece. Anyone can kill those all day long without a single F given.

These aren't absurd examples. They are what has happened. I'm sharing with you because the Infiltration Formation gives you an ideal way to field such a thing. But more than that, we are here in a thread to share ideas and this is one that has actually been tested.






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 luke1705 wrote:
So....this like 3 page discussion on the tactical merits (or lack thereof) of pathfinders is pretty interesting but I'm wondering what you guys think is the strongest 3-source 1850 list.

Some things I've considered:

1) Drone Formation plus OSC plus Riptide Wing (4 or 5 tides, depending on load out)

2) FSE CAD plus two OSC

3) Frankie's double stormsurge plus riptide wing list

4) FSE CAD with 1-2 stormsurges, riptide wing and drone formation

5) FSE/Tau CAD, OSC, Riptide Wing

6) Something else I haven't thought of

My personal preference would be an OSC plus a riptide wing and some kind of CAD, but I'll probably run a double OSC because I don't want to go get three riptides (that's right I own zero!)

The Optimized Stealth Cadre is definitely the most compelling of the Formations for me. I tested it out as I mentioned and it was as effective as I had imagined. There simply was nothing to dislike about it in actual play.

My strong feelings that you need Objective Secured units to win big makes me say that the Combined Arms Detachment is always going to be important. So There's two right there.

The third one that looks pretty mean is the Riptide Wing. I personally have some distaste for bringing three Riptides in casual play, but from a competitive point of view it's really impressive. My hesitation on that is pretty simple: I think you need D weapons to battle the Wraith Knight more effectively. BUT since your question is which 3-Source force specifically to use, I would say the Riptide wing+ OSC + CAD.

But in reality I would strongly recommend a singular StormSurge instead of the Riptide Wing because: D Weapons. They're just flat necessary. As much as I like the Riptide Wing, I cannot find a convincing and points efficient way to deal with a Wraith Knight or similar Imperial Guard/Ork threat than that. I tried to kill one of those silly Ork monstrosities and let me tell you: 12 points that regenerate rapidly is no picnic to try and mulch through with anything even approaching efficiency. You gotta' have a better answer than conventionaol weaponry so the Nuclear StormSurge option feels right to me.




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 Vineheart01 wrote:
Unless you just dont want a random formation of drones, there really is no reason to not take the Drone Net even in a Hunter Contingent list (they just dont count as Aux slots or benefit from Coord Fire). Theyre barely more expensive than the usual pathfinder units people take, but way more durable with T4 4+ save AND they can fire/move/jsj. Thats before factoring in all drones +1BS, which also works on Missile Drones (the only drone you could get Drone Controllers on that wasnt affected by it).
Furthermore, they have interceptor. One of the biggest reasons i dont like using EWO unless i absolutely have to is because i fire without marker support, since NOTHING has interceptor and markers (except the Stealthsuit Shas'ui if you really wanna do that). This is a ton of intercepting markerlights, which can easily secure the Riptide's blast on that termie blob.

Drones are by far and away a better Markerlight source than Pathfinders if you can afford them. I use a Buffmander to protect and command the one Marker Drone swarm I take and then I take Sniper Drones as another Markerlight source (very accurate, harder to kill).

The Drone net in a Hunter Contingent makes them a lot more useful on their own and saves a Buffmanders points which I like, though you still don't get the performance from them a Buffmander allows. But then, you're not paying for the Buffmander which gives you a lot more points to spend. So this feels like one of those decisisons that is a style thing more than anything else.

Since I like Firesight Marksman as Markerlight sources, and I have a Markerdrone Swarm, I start to run out of reasons to want the Drone Net. but in other builds, it certainly is tempting.

I like the idea of the Riptide Wing, but I feel it falls short without appropriate markerlight sources. The drone net seems to mitigate this requirement, but that's already two of your three sources. For my competitive list, the drone net and the standard CAD were two of my detachments, so I was left with the difficult decision of the OSC or Riptide Wing. What decided it for me was the flexibility or deployment options of the OSC plus the efficient and dependable damage it produces. The Riptide Wing seems to fall victim to Los blocking terrain and risks losing damage capability as the game continues. Especially if your opponent can nuke a Riptide early on. But if you're expecting to play at a tournament with minimal Los blocking terrain, Riptide Wing for days.

So....this like 3 page discussion on the tactical merits (or lack thereof) of pathfinders is pretty interesting but I'm wondering what you guys think is the strongest 3-source 1850 list.

Yeah...I'm over this Pathfinder thing. A 1850 list I plan to try out is the following:

CAD
Ethereal - 50
2x5 Fire Warriors of whatever flavor - 90
2xStormsurge - AFP, EWO, pulse driver - 770
Skyshield - 75

Firestream
1 Piranha - 40
3x5 Piranhas - 600

Skynet
4x4 Marker Drones - 224
1849

The drone farm is just too insane to pass up in competitive play, in my opinion. In 5 turns, you crank out 160 freaking drones. The Marker Drones are for the +1 BS to your drone swarm and to guide your Stormsurge D missiles. Skyshield is there for 4++ on the Surges and to help spare you losing the Ethereal, if necessary. Given the mass of BS3, potentially 3 shot drones, you should have more than enough firepower to mow through pretty much anything without AV 12. The S10 blasts are for deathstars, and the numerous D missiles should take down Wraithknights and IKs without much issue. MSU obsec marines is a possible weakness, but again, you should be easily able to shoot anything off of any objective you want. You can also opt to not immediately run your Piranhas away if you REALLY need to.

MilkmanAl wrote:

So....this like 3 page discussion on the tactical merits (or lack thereof) of pathfinders is pretty interesting but I'm wondering what you guys think is the strongest 3-source 1850 list.

Yeah...I'm over this Pathfinder thing. A 1850 list I plan to try out is the following:

CAD
Ethereal - 50
2x5 Fire Warriors of whatever flavor - 90
2xStormsurge - AFP, EWO, pulse driver - 770
Skyshield - 75

Firestream
1 Piranha - 40
3x5 Piranhas - 600

Skynet
4x4 Marker Drones - 224
1849

The drone farm is just too insane to pass up in competitive play, in my opinion. In 5 turns, you crank out 160 freaking drones. The Marker Drones are for the +1 BS to your drone swarm and to guide your Stormsurge D missiles. Skyshield is there for 4++ on the Surges and to help spare you losing the Ethereal, if necessary. Given the mass of BS3, potentially 3 shot drones, you should have more than enough firepower to mow through pretty much anything without AV 12. The S10 blasts are for deathstars, and the numerous D missiles should take down Wraithknights and IKs without much issue. MSU obsec marines is a possible weakness, but again, you should be easily able to shoot anything off of any objective you want. You can also opt to not immediately run your Piranhas away if you REALLY need to.

16x3x2 = 96 drones. Not 160. Not sure where that number is coming from.

You have 16 Piranhas that each drop off 2 drones per turn. After 5 turns, that's 5x2x16 or 160, yes? Am I missing something?

Yes. You don't just get to drop drones off. You have to leave the board and come back.

Drones come off during the movement phase. Piranhas leave at the end of the movement phase. When they (automatically) return the following turn, they just have to not move further than 6" to let drones off and then immediately leave again.

No because you must end the piranhas movement... then disembark. Cant move flat out when you embark OR disembark,. So the Piranha has to drop, then move. Then it moves, then drops.

So effectively you're on the board every other round. And in rounds you are on, you obviously don't generate new drones.

 Jancoran wrote:


It doesnt substantially change my point. But if you prefer an alternative comparison its fine. The outcome is the same: Crisis teams have less wounds to give, lose firepower faster, have to operate closer to the enemy etc... All my points apply to them as well.

Less wounds, at better saves and toughness, in addition to JSJ. Sure, it's less wounds, but it's a much more survivable set of wounds. The same goes for losing fire power, and don't forget you can actually split the wounds on Crisis Suits a lot more if you'd like.

They by no means operate closer to the enemy as their JSJ ability lets them have a further operating range than pathfinders if you're counting the movement as part of their operating range as you did when you talked about 21 inch rapid fire range, even with double ones they only move in 4" to gain +6", that can also be positioned a lot better. More so, them being able to ignore difficult terrain also means they can make more use of their movement as a whole. You're also discounting that Missile Pods are 36" range base, so if you compare them to Missile Suits the Missile Suits have a much further range, and the Plasma Suits have a comparable range due to JSJ.

Don't forget that in both the topic of range and survival you're tethered to cover with Pathfinders, you're not burdened by such with Suits.

 Jancoran wrote:
No because you must end the piranhas movement... then disembark. Cant move flat out when you embark OR disembark,. So the Piranha has to drop, then move. Then it moves, then drops.

So effectively you're on the board every other round. And in rounds you are on, you obviously don't generate new drones.

The Piranhas leave at the end of the movement phase, not the end of their movement. They should be able to dump drones and still hightail it out in the same turn, as long as everything stays within 6" of a board edge. I'm not sure where moving flat out comes into this at all.

 Jancoran wrote:
No because you must end the piranhas movement... then disembark. Cant move flat out when you embark OR disembark,. So the Piranha has to drop, then move. Then it moves, then drops.

So effectively you're on the board every other round. And in rounds you are on, you obviously don't generate new drones.

When is the Piranha moving flat out?

SJ

 Jancoran wrote:
No because you must end the piranhas movement... then disembark. Cant move flat out when you embark OR disembark,. So the Piranha has to drop, then move. Then it moves, then drops.

So effectively you're on the board every other round. And in rounds you are on, you obviously don't generate new drones.

Thats the loophole though. They dont actually "move off the board" they just have to end the movement phase 6" from the edge of the board. Probably not intended though since that just gets ridiculous, and im sure its another rule people will rule against the tau player since its not an imperial thing.

Also:
I said a marker drone unit with a Mark'O was good, but expensive as hell. You are putting a ~130pt tax (higher if you go tankmander route) on a ~112pt unit (8 drones) which will guarantee a unit is lit to hell and back, but just one unit. One of the parks of using pathfinders over a Mark'O squad is you can divvy up your ML rather than ultimately focus fire - which you can still do. I still by no means like pathfinders, but i'll run them over mark'o any day.
If the Buffmander is in a squad of Misslepod Crisis suits that took marker drones, thats different. Now hes buffing 6-8 ML drones to BS5 with reroll AND via targetlocks making the 6 MPs annihilate something. I do this all the time, or at least i did. I stopped using the buffmander lately since hes so damn expensive.

 Jancoran wrote:
No because you must end the piranhas movement... then disembark. Cant move flat out when you embark OR disembark,. So the Piranha has to drop, then move. Then it moves, then drops.

So effectively you're on the board every other round. And in rounds you are on, you obviously don't generate new drones.

Yeah sorry you are wrong again. The piranhas can come on the board, drop off their drones, and exit the same turn they arrived. This has been discussed many times and you 100% cannot argue against it.

 luke1705 wrote:
So....this like 3 page discussion on the tactical merits (or lack thereof) of pathfinders is pretty interesting but I'm wondering what you guys think is the strongest 3-source 1850 list.

Some things I've considered:

1) Drone Formation plus OSC plus Riptide Wing (4 or 5 tides, depending on load out)

2) FSE CAD plus two OSC

3) Frankie's double stormsurge plus riptide wing list

4) FSE CAD with 1-2 stormsurges, riptide wing and drone formation

5) FSE/Tau CAD, OSC, Riptide Wing

6) Something else I haven't thought of

My personal preference would be an OSC plus a riptide wing and some kind of CAD, but I'll probably run a double OSC because I don't want to go get three riptides (that's right I own zero!)

I like Frankie's list but it's hard to see the value of the Pulse Driver Cannon with the way he plays. He always seems to like going in for Stomp and being up in people's business so I think the stock blast cannon might be better.

Aside from that, I think the OSC has good utility but out of curiosity, why not Hunter or Dawn Blade Contingents? When I look at my previous lists, the only thing that the Hunter Contingent really leaves me without is Skyrays, which I can always ally in with an ECPA Riptide in a FSE Allied Detachment.

 Bach wrote:


I like Frankie's list but it's hard to see the value of the Pulse Driver Cannon with the way he plays. He always seems to like going in for Stomp and being up in people's business so I think the stock blast cannon might be better.

The Pulse Driver still has a better profile at most ranges against most things, and he does deploy the heels in various matches. The real problem is that the Pulse Blast is only better when you're pretty much in range to charge, and by then the stomps should be doing most of the work, while the Driver is better as a whole.

Edit: Basically, with the Pulse Driver you diversify yourself, with the Pulse Blast you're kind of all in on a plan, and that doesn't always work.

 Vineheart01 wrote:

Also:
I said a marker drone unit with a Mark'O was good, but expensive as hell. You are putting a ~130pt tax (higher if you go tankmander route) on a ~112pt unit (8 drones) which will guarantee a unit is lit to hell and back, but just one unit. One of the parks of using pathfinders over a Mark'O squad is you can divvy up your ML rather than ultimately focus fire - which you can still do. I still by no means like pathfinders, but i'll run them over mark'o any day.
If the Buffmander is in a squad of Misslepod Crisis suits that took marker drones, thats different. Now hes buffing 6-8 ML drones to BS5 with reroll AND via targetlocks making the 6 MPs annihilate something. I do this all the time, or at least i did. I stopped using the buffmander lately since hes so damn expensive.

Ahh but often you are required to field a commander, so it is less of a tax. In addition, fielding a target lock + dual missile pods & you are making some use of your (often mandatory tax unit).

Its the issue I'm having with the Hunter Contingent, OSC, Ripwing, minimum requirements to field a stormsurge.. i.e. in a hunter contingent you are forced to take two drone squads, so with a drone-net formation, your rocking minimum 24 drones which is a bit steep.

I'd still rather the shotgun if i were going stompsurge strat. You cant stomp everything, so fire 2 Str D shots into their face. afaik you can stomp vehicles but not MCs, and obviously you cant stomp supers.

The mid-range shotgun is still pretty damn potent, just not all-powerful potent. S10 AP3 Blastx2 is nothing to scoff at. Even the long range one is pretty good, just has gak all for AP (S9 AP5 Large Blastx2). Causing a ton of wounds is often better than penning armor. After all, im one of those that thinks putting multiple Airbursters on crisis units is a dick move because its so amazingly strong when massed lol

But an AP2 S10 at 72" , that's also an ordinance, is probably going to pick off anything the Blast Cannon does, especially if you do decide to plant your heels and shoot.

I can easily be wrong, but it just seems like the power of the Driver is probably just better than the Blast, except against things that can still be picked off by the Driver from a safer range.

Right, but thats also ONE S10 AP2 large blast.

It would outkill any vehicles compared to the non-D Shotgun but you wouldnt be firing it at them anyway. Blasts = blobs of units, not vehicles. I never fire my Pulse Driver at a vehicle, though i tend to favor units standing near one if i can.

Sure, but at 20" or even 20"-30" you're only getting one extra hit at a weaker power and much shorter range. I think that the vehicle issue is less of a problem, because we have enough tools to deal with that, such as the OSC, or simply just a ton of fire power from well any of our big formations. Now a S10 AP2 shot, that's ordinance, can do some real damage to a Cent-star or anything with a 2+ save, at a much larger range, and it's significantly better than the Pulse Blast at 20"-30" against anything with a 3+ save, which is can probably just insta kill with that strength.

True, when factoring in the long range the Pulse Driver is superior no question. I was referring to a stompsurge, i.e. one that goes downfield and stomps things. The range of the Pulse Driver is wasted in this situation.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
True, when factoring in the long range the Pulse Driver is superior no question. I was referring to a stompsurge, i.e. one that goes downfield and stomps things. The range of the Pulse Driver is wasted in this situation.

Very not true. Needing to target the same target as your stomps is actually, often, not the case. Being able to engage multiple units and at the widest variety in ranges is extremely valuable.

Simply the fact it can wade in and stomp is great, being able to pop a transport across the board at the same time is also awesome!

In addition to what Razerous said, there are games where even with the Stompsurge being your plan default plan, you don't want to do that as Frankie said. So in those games the value of the Stormsurge goes up drastically if it has the Driver over the Blast. So while the Blast is good when stomping, if you have two Stompsurges it's probably just overkill, while the Driver makes them much more cost effective in games where you don't stomp, while not greatly reducing their power in games that you do.