For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.

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**notredameguy10**

_ghost_ wrote:
Regarding the ECPA : Rule wise ists clear that with th Mont'ka Book a normal Riptide cant get it. Fact. There is also no ambiguity here. As a normal Riptide has no access to FE relics...

O'Vesa on the other side get that ECPA. perhaps... just perhaps its RAI that only he geths this one and such ECPA has its Nova Rules ...

Yeah sorry still gonna refuse to play anyone who says i cannot use it on my riptide

FSE: Riptides could equip Signature Systems
FSE: ECPA has an ability that ONLY riptides can use
Mont'ka: It does not say riptides can equip signature systems
Montka: ECPA is still there exactly the same with an ability ONLY riptides can use.

It is clearly an oversight in the Mont'ka book.

**Kanluwen**

notredameguy10 wrote:
_ghost_ wrote:
Regarding the ECPA : Rule wise ists clear that with th Mont'ka Book a normal Riptide cant get it. Fact. There is also no ambiguity here. As a normal Riptide has no access to FE relics...

O'Vesa on the other side get that ECPA. perhaps... just perhaps its RAI that only he geths this one and such ECPA has its Nova Rules ...

Yeah sorry still gonna refuse to play anyone who says i cannot use it on my riptide

The squat, muscular physiology of the Earth caste makes them ill-fitting pilots for their famous battlesuits. In the Farsight Enclaves, however, it is not unheard of for a battlesuit to be built to accommodate an Earth caste pilot. The honour of donning the Hero's Mantle has been granted to very few such individuals, but an Earth caste pilot can judge a battlesuit's accuracy and energy tolerances far better than his Fire caste equivalent, even if his skill at close quarters leaves much to be desired.

It's intentional at this point--the fluff made it clear before that it was not intended solely for Riptides.

FSE: Riptides could equip Signature Systems

True, but that doesn't mean the EPCA is just for Riptides. It benefits them much more than it would a standard Crisis Suit, but there's a reason why it says "Models with battlesuits only." and not "Riptides only."

FSE: ECPA has an ability that ONLY riptides can use

"The model re-rolls all rolls of 1 To Hit in the Shooting phase, and may re-roll the dice when using a Nova Reactor. However their Weapon Skill is 1."

There is ONE part of that specific to Riptides.

Mont'ka: It does not say riptides can equip signature systems
Montka: ECPA is still there exactly the same with an ability ONLY riptides can use.

And still "Models with battlesuits only."

It is clearly an oversight in the Mont'ka book.

Or maybe they just wanted it to be specific to O'Vesa for Riptides?

I mean, the whole thing about him having a Riptide i why he's part of The Eight.

**notredameguy10**

Kanluwen wrote:
notredameguy10 wrote:
_ghost_ wrote:
Regarding the ECPA : Rule wise ists clear that with th Mont'ka Book a normal Riptide cant get it. Fact. There is also no ambiguity here. As a normal Riptide has no access to FE relics...

O'Vesa on the other side get that ECPA. perhaps... just perhaps its RAI that only he geths this one and such ECPA has its Nova Rules ...

Yeah sorry still gonna refuse to play anyone who says i cannot use it on my riptide

The squat, muscular physiology of the Earth caste makes them ill-fitting pilots for their famous battlesuits. In the Farsight Enclaves, however, it is not unheard of for a battlesuit to be built to accommodate an Earth caste pilot. The honour of donning the Hero's Mantle has been granted to very few such individuals, but an Earth caste pilot can judge a battlesuit's accuracy and energy tolerances far better than his Fire caste equivalent, even if his skill at close quarters leaves much to be desired.

It's intentional at this point--the fluff made it clear before that it was not intended solely for Riptides.

FSE: Riptides could equip Signature Systems

True, but that doesn't mean the EPCA is just for Riptides. It benefits them much more than it would a standard Crisis Suit, but there's a reason why it says "Models with battlesuits only." and not "Riptides only."

FSE: ECPA has an ability that ONLY riptides can use

"The model re-rolls all rolls of 1 To Hit in the Shooting phase, and may re-roll the dice when using a Nova Reactor. However their Weapon Skill is 1."

There is ONE part of that specific to Riptides.

Mont'ka: It does not say riptides can equip signature systems
Montka: ECPA is still there exactly the same with an ability ONLY riptides can use.

And still "Models with battlesuits only."

It is clearly an oversight in the Mont'ka book.

Or maybe they just wanted it to be specific to O'Vesa for Riptides?

I mean, the whole thing about him having a Riptide i why he's part of The Eight.

lol so you think it the intention was to cost 30 points to only be able to use half the rule to get to reroll 1's? yeah i don't think so. THIRTY points?

**Grizzyzz**

luke1705 wrote:
_ghost_ wrote:
Regarding the ECPA : Rule wise ists clear that with th Mont'ka Book a normal Riptide cant get it. Fact. There is also no ambiguity here. As a normal Riptide has no access to FE relics...

O'Vesa on the other side get that ECPA. perhaps... just perhaps its RAI that only he gets this one and such ECPA has its Nova Rules ...

The problem is that RAW, O'Vesa has an illegal loadout. He, as defined in the eight formation, is just a normal riptide with all of his upgrades and the associated special rules. None of those rules allow him to take an ECPA if a normal riptide could not (which is the case). Definitely a simple oversight as there is no current way to approach the rules that make sense. It's like Ravenwing HQ level of bad. Any FSE Riptide will definitely be able to take the ECPA, as there is no other way to satisfy O'Vesa's item requirements.

So go ahead in good conscience and run a riptide with an ECPA, since even if you think that it's only meant for O'Vesa, then why does it have a cost in the relic section? Who can actually purchase and use it for 30 points?

That being said, I think it's kind of moot since the Riptide wing is so much better. Although, I really don't plan on fielding the wing. We're not quite at 4 source format yet for the ITC, which is what I would need to field it. The other option would be the 4 or 5 riptides the Notre Dame has outlined, and I really am not about that life. 3 is pushing it for me. More likely, I'll just grab a stormsurge and call it a day.

Not the case, All the members of the Eight are Independent Characters, and it is clear that "characters in FSE" may take relics, so O'Vesa is good to go! Except you will never take him, because the Eight formation is not viable in normal sized games.. =(

**_ghost_**

In addition: even if the O'vesa riptide would be otherwise absolutely illegal.... he is listed in exactly this way in the book. Its not as if you get a proposal hhow to fit out O'Vesa. in fact he could also have a ... mastercrafted Bolter on his shoulder.. wear a daemonic CC weapon and drive a jetbike.... as long as its listed in the book as its gear... its legal.

**carldooley**

let us see; ECPA is 30 to reroll ones.
shadowsun's Command Link Drone is 20. Command link drone is on a unit, but it is unavailable to FSE.
what is the current wording for ecpa? Does it affect one riptide, or is there a way to justify that it is spread across the unit?

**Kanluwen**

notredameguy10 wrote:

lol so you think it the intention was to cost 30 points to only be able to use half the rule to get to reroll 1's? yeah i don't think so. THIRTY points?

Have you looked at Relics for other armies?

These kinds of "lolwat" items exist everywhere.
The Raven Guard, for example, got a Relic that is 15 points called "The Raven Skull of Korvaad".
You add 1 to Weapon Skill and Leadership of a model with it. If the model dies, all friendly Raven Guard models have the Hatred and Rage special rules while they are within 6" of this position.
The Cadian Detachment got a Relic that is 25 points for a power sword(the Iron Left) with +2 Strength instead of Strength User.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

carldooley wrote:
let us see; ECPA is 30 to reroll ones.
shadowsun's Command Link Drone is 20. Command link drone is on a unit, but it is unavailable to FSE.
what is the current wording for ecpa? Does it affect one riptide, or is there a way to justify that it is spread across the unit?

Models with battlesuits only. The model re-rolls all rolls of 1 To Hit in the Shooting phase, and may re-roll the dice when using a Nova Reactor. However, their Weapon Skill is 1.

It's the exact same wording as it was in FSE--it's specific to the model.

**Tautastic**

So strictly looking only at the Mont ka book, how many point does it cost? The book does not specify point cost on each model just their wargear.

**carldooley**

Tautastic wrote:
So strictly looking only at the Mont ka book, how many point does it cost? The book does not specify point cost on each model just their wargear.

scroll up. . .
if I ever needed proof that people don't actually read the thread

**gmaleron**

Thankfully it seems GW finally pulled their heads out and are starting to put up updated FAQ's on their website and I expect that this will be cleared up, until then I don't care what you say. This item is clearly meant for a Riptide so I will continue to use it, you can throw out the "RAW" all you want but anyone with common sense can see that this is an oversight. Being and Independent Character would not make him immune to taking it because he is technically a Suit so his loadout currently is illegal if the mistake is actually correct. Sorry, im taking the ECPA and I know im not cheating in the slightest.

**_ghost_**

How can a written set of wargear for a Character illegal?

**gmaleron**

_ghost_ wrote:
How can a written set of wargear for a Character illegal?

Because according to Mont'ka Riptides cannot take it and Ovesa is listed as being in a Riptide, why this is a clear oversight.

**carldooley**

gmaleron wrote:
Thankfully it seems GW finally pulled their heads out and are starting to put up updated FAQ's on their website and I expect that this will be cleared up, until then I don't care what you say. This item is clearly meant for a Riptide so I will continue to use it, you can throw out the "RAW" all you want but anyone with common sense can see that this is an oversight. Being and Independent Character would not make him immune to taking it because he is technically a Suit so his loadout currently is illegal if the mistake is actually correct. Sorry, im taking the ECPA and I know im not cheating in the slightest.

except that you are, sorry. This is why Tau players are having so much trouble with the ITC poll. The RaW is clear - riptides cannot take the Earth Caste Pilot Array, but in a Hunter Cadre Riptides and Hammerheads can benefit from a buffmander's abilities, even if the Riptide has a Target Lock and targets a different unit than the rest of its unit.

**gmaleron**

carldooley wrote:
gmaleron wrote:
Thankfully it seems GW finally pulled their heads out and are starting to put up updated FAQ's on their website and I expect that this will be cleared up, until then I don't care what you say. This item is clearly meant for a Riptide so I will continue to use it, you can throw out the "RAW" all you want but anyone with common sense can see that this is an oversight. Being and Independent Character would not make him immune to taking it because he is technically a Suit so his loadout currently is illegal if the mistake is actually correct. Sorry, im taking the ECPA and I know im not cheating in the slightest.

except that you are, sorry. This is why Tau players are having so much trouble with the ITC poll. The RaW is clear - riptides cannot take the Earth Caste Pilot Array, but in a Hunter Cadre Riptides and Hammerheads can benefit from a buffmander's abilities, even if the Riptide has a Target Lock and targets a different unit than the rest of its unit.

Im not cheating and you wont be able to convince me otherwise, this is a clear oversight and hopefully the ITC is smart enough to see that. This would mean that Ovesa is unfieldable because he would have illegal wargear, its common sense. FSE Riptides can take the Earth Caste Pilot Array and without a doubt it will be FAQd when the get to the Mont'Ka book. Glad im in an environment where my FLGS agrees 110% with me.

**carldooley**

gmaleron wrote:
_ghost_ wrote:
How can a written set of wargear for a Character illegal?

Because according to Mont'ka Riptides cannot take it and Ovesa is listed as being in a Riptide, why this is a clear oversight.

then you obey the rules for the eight and you include the points in the model, even if it is illegal normally.

**gmaleron**

carldooley wrote:
gmaleron wrote:
_ghost_ wrote:
How can a written set of wargear for a Character illegal?

Because according to Mont'ka Riptides cannot take it and Ovesa is listed as being in a Riptide, why this is a clear oversight.

then you obey the rules for the eight and you include the points in the model, even if it is illegal normally.

That makes 0 sense, this is clearly an oversight period.

**carldooley**

gmaleron wrote:
carldooley wrote:
gmaleron wrote:
Thankfully it seems GW finally pulled their heads out and are starting to put up updated FAQ's on their website and I expect that this will be cleared up, until then I don't care what you say. This item is clearly meant for a Riptide so I will continue to use it, you can throw out the "RAW" all you want but anyone with common sense can see that this is an oversight. Being and Independent Character would not make him immune to taking it because he is technically a Suit so his loadout currently is illegal if the mistake is actually correct. Sorry, im taking the ECPA and I know im not cheating in the slightest.

except that you are, sorry. This is why Tau players are having so much trouble with the ITC poll. The RaW is clear - riptides cannot take the Earth Caste Pilot Array, but in a Hunter Cadre Riptides and Hammerheads can benefit from a buffmander's abilities, even if the Riptide has a Target Lock and targets a different unit than the rest of its unit.

Im not cheating and you wont be able to convince me otherwise, this is a clear oversight and hopefully the ITC is smart enough to see that.

and again, until there is a revision in the digital codex or a FAQ is released, I'm sorry, but you are cheating if you equip a ECPA to any riptide other than O'Vesa.

Keep in mind that I'm saying this as a Tau Player with 3 riptides. I'd love to equip it, but until a change happens it is impossible.

gmaleron wrote:
That makes 0 sense, this is clearly an oversight period.

Hold on. you want sense? how about we play a game with supported (and playtested) rules. . .

**Tautastic**

carldooley wrote:
Tautastic wrote:
So strictly looking only at the Mont ka book, how many point does it cost? The book does not specify point cost on each model just their wargear.

scroll up. . .
if I ever needed proof that people don't actually read the thread

Let me clarify my question. How many point does O'Vessa cost or any of the eight?

**Kanluwen**

Tautastic wrote:
So strictly looking only at the Mont ka book, how many point does it cost? The book does not specify point cost on each model just their wargear.

It didn't do that in FSE either. Under FSE, it said that you could take The Eight(of which O'Vesa was a member) with all of their fittings, at the points cost that it would be.

In any regards, Formations never really list points costs. You take the units that constitute the Formation at the cost of the components that make up the Formation.

**gmaleron**

And that's fine, however I know im not cheating, again youre not going to convince me that I am in any way shape or form man. Not trying to be "that guy" but this is CLEARLY GW messing up the writing. Also when in doubt I can just use the standard Farsight Enclaves Codex because after reading through Mont'Ka there is nothing saying I cant use that Codex and nothing I have been able to find says that you cant use it either. This isn't cheating if your using something that is clearly meant to be used, GW writing a bad sentence yet again is not the fault of the players. I am not cheating. And how is it a playable rule when it is an item that contradicts itself? Sorry its common sense.

**carldooley**

Tautastic wrote:
Let me clarify my question. How many point does O'Vessa cost or any of the eight?

that is why it is a supplement. If it is put together like the FSE supplement there should be a list of the equipment that each has. you get the cost of each of the eight by adding the total costs together.
in the Farsight Enclaves supplement (keeping in mind that I do NOT have the Mont'ka book - and I don't know if the costs have changed)
Farsight - in the Tau Codex unchanged so I won't post the points here.
Arra'kon 159
Bravestorm 199
Sha'vastos 174
Brightsword 200
Torchstar 154
Ob'lotai 9-0 128
O'vesa 305
for a total cost of 1484

**Grizzyzz**

gmaleron wrote:

That makes 0 sense, this is clearly an oversight period.

The thing is your probably right. it probably is oversight. there are a lot of things that need some extra attention in the new books. Does that make it "legal" though.. no..

If your local group allows it, fine, go ahead, there are hundreds of home brewed rules and interpretations out there. I guess what people are really trying to say, is don't argue your point.. when RAW its illegal for a riptide right now.

As for O'vesa... any listed wargear is not illegal.. and on top of that the clause "characters in FSE can take relics" also says that O'Vesa can have the ECPA because he is an IC... so I really don't see where your coming from...

**gmaleron**

Grizzyzz wrote:
As for O'vesa... any listed wargear is not illegal.. and on top of that the clause "characters in FSE can take relics" also says that O'Vesa can have the ECPA because he is an IC... so I really don't see where your coming from...

Its not Homebrew in my eyes and never will be, its what was intended and what it should be. I only mention it because it says Riptides cannot take any relics and Ovesa is listed as a Riptide but he is also a character so they are contradicting themselves. Trust me I agree with you but its what ive heard from the one player who argued it, thankfully everyone knows he is a WAAC kind of guy so we ignored him and said it was fine.

**Grizzyzz**

gmaleron wrote:
Grizzyzz wrote:
As for O'vesa... any listed wargear is not illegal.. and on top of that the clause "characters in FSE can take relics" also says that O'Vesa can have the ECPA because he is an IC... so I really don't see where your coming from...

Its not Homebrew in my eyes and never will be, its what was intended and what it should be. I only mention it because it says Riptides cannot take any relics and Ovesa is listed as a Riptide but he is also a character so they are contradicting themselves. Trust me I agree with you but its what ive heard from the one player who argued it, thankfully everyone knows he is a WAAC kind of guy so we ignored him and said it was fine.

it doesn't say that though.. no where does it say "riptides can't take relics"... the issue in Montka is that they left out the clause that..

"Characters in FSE can take signature systems. RIPTIDES IN AN FSE DETACHMENT MAY ALSO TAKE SIG SYSTEMS"

**Kanluwen**

Just so we're clear, it's not "characters in FSE can take relics".

Mont'ka page 84 wrote:
Signature Systems
Any character in a Farsight Enclaves Detachment or Formation that may select Signature Systems uses the Signature Systems of the Farsight Enclaves(opposite), at the points costs shown, instead of the Signature Systems from Codex: Tau Empire

Personally, I kinda think this might be a response to the fact that Riptides were not really intended to have a large presence in the FSE book and they wanted to make O'Vesa special rather than just making FSE Riptides "autotake" a Relic that makes the penalties of the unit(Nova Reactor) even more of a joke than the Stimulant Injector did.

**Grizzyzz**

Kanluwen wrote:
Just so we're clear, it's not "characters in FSE can take relics".

Mont'ka page 84 wrote:
Signature Systems
Any character in a Farsight Enclaves Detachment or Formation that may select Signature Systems uses the Signature Systems of the Farsight Enclaves(opposite), at the points costs shown, instead of the Signature Systems from Codex: Tau Empire

Personally, I kinda think this might be a response to the fact that Riptides were not really intended to have a large presence in the FSE book and they wanted to make O'Vesa special rather than just making FSE Riptides "autotake" a Relic that makes the penalties of the unit(Nova Reactor) even more of a joke than the Stimulant Injector did.

I agree with this. And to be fair.. I started running my riptides without the ECPA mainly to save points. It did not reduce their effectiveness that much. If I was going to fail my nova roll.. I was failing it.. reroll or not haha

**gmaleron**

Grizzyzz wrote:
it doesn't say that though.. no where does it say "riptides can't take relics"... the issue in Montka is that they left out the clause that..

"Characters in FSE can take signature systems. RIPTIDES IN AN FSE DETACHMENT MAY ALSO TAKE SIG SYSTEMS"

Its what I mean, it doesn't say they can take it and doesn't say they cant take it, I don't have my book on me right now (at work) so I appreciate you clarifying. It just makes 0 sense that Relic that is clearly intended for use by Riptides can no longer be taken by Riptides. Also, from what I remember nowhere in the Campaign Book does it say that the Farsight Enclaves Supplement is Illegal nor have I seen anything saying that it cant be used anymore so I will continue to use that if I have to.

**carldooley**

gmaleron wrote:
Its what I mean, it doesn't say they can take it and doesn't say they cant take it, I don't have my book on me right now (at work) so I appreciate you clarifying. It just makes 0 sense that Relic that is clearly intended for use by Riptides can no longer be taken by Riptides. Also, from what I remember nowhere in the Campaign Book does it say that the Farsight Enclaves Supplement is Illegal nor have I seen anything saying that it cant be used anymore so I will continue to use that if I have to.

and a person who insists that they can still use Marbo because he was in the last Imperial Guard Codex (because the new one wasn't called Codex: Imperial Guard and wasn't superceded) isn't laughed out of every tournament he tries to attend?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKMMCPeiQoc

**Kanluwen**

It's a Relic that while having an ability "clearly intended for use by Riptides" is a modification to any Battlesuit. If there were a Broadside Commander, you could give it to him.

The bonus to the Nova Reactor and the rerolls To Hit are fluff things, since it's an Earth Caste member who is familiar with the tolerances of the various Battlesuits they service.

Honestly? It never should have been made a Relic that could be taken by anyone but O'Vesa as part of The Eight--but their reasoning at that point was likely they wanted to allow players to take members of The Eight individually.

**gmaleron**

carldooley wrote:
gmaleron wrote:
Its what I mean, it doesn't say they can take it and doesn't say they cant take it, I don't have my book on me right now (at work) so I appreciate you clarifying. It just makes 0 sense that Relic that is clearly intended for use by Riptides can no longer be taken by Riptides. Also, from what I remember nowhere in the Campaign Book does it say that the Farsight Enclaves Supplement is Illegal nor have I seen anything saying that it cant be used anymore so I will continue to use that if I have to.

and a person who insists that they can still use Marbo because he was in the last Imperial Guard Codex (because the new one wasn't called Codex: Imperial Guard and wasn't superceded) isn't laughed out of every tournament he tries to attend?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKMMCPeiQoc

Completely different situation and not at all relatable, please tell me where it says that Mont'Ka is replacing the stand alone Farsight Enclaves Codex? Because Mont'Ka is a Campaign book and like other Campaign Books they use armies that are found in other Codex's, why should they be able to run out of their Codex's if they so choose to but the Farsight Enclaves cant? For example Raven Guard can choose to run their army out of Codex Space Marines or utilize the Formations/Detachment from the Campaign Book, why would it be different for the Farsight Enclaves Codex?