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 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If you take a Drone-Net, all Drones gain Split Fire, which allows solo suits with attached Drones to shot at a different target than their Drones eithout needing Target Lock. It's an unconsiderable expense, but all the freebies are well worth it.

This would also allow the above solo-Tide to split fire is it also takes a Shielded Missile Drone (or two), saving points for an EWO or VT.

SJ

Only the drones who are part of the formation gains the split fire rule.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If you take a Drone-Net, all Drones gain Split Fire, which allows solo suits with attached Drones to shot at a different target than their Drones eithout needing Target Lock. It's an unconsiderable expense, but all the freebies are well worth it.

This would also allow the above solo-Tide to split fire is it also takes a Shielded Missile Drone (or two), saving points for an EWO or VT.

SJ

Only drones in the drone net get spitfire, not all drones in the detachment

Hey, i don't know if this has been touched upon yet (who am i kidding it probably already has) but what are some tips and strategies to kill wraith knight(s) without using destroyer missiles with marker lights?

Hmm....yaknow that might actually be a viable use for HRR - anti wraiths. Long as hell range, slap a commander with PEN chip for reroll wounds, pens armor, and no fear of D cannons due to 6 drones in the way. The drones could add more damage within 36", though unreliable its still more damage.

Outside that, youre lookin at Seekers/Fusion spam. Everything else we got doesnt pen the armor or has the RoF to bother. Riptides/hammerheads pen the armor and wound on 4s (or 2s with railgun) but thats 1 potential wound on a high wound model with FNP. I bring 5 piranhas regularly and i maxed them on Seekers once against a certain Eldar player who never plays friendly. Turn one killed one of his 2 WKs with 10 seekers ignoring cover and BS4 (3ML = whole unit ignore cover and +1BS is better than firing 3 seekers via marker)
Reason i say Fusions is because while theyre 1 shot, its really easy to bring a ton of them unlike our other low RoF high AP guns with enough strength. Its almost never a bad thing to have a ton of fusions against eldar, since most of the time if they have wraiths they never have numbers of squishy things. Good for ID'ing nonwraiths.

Which is exactly why i always say supers dont belong in sub-2k games. Ive used my stormsurge twice because unlike a local eldar player im not a dick, im not going to bring a super sub2k lol

X078 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If you take a Drone-Net, all Drones gain Split Fire, which allows solo suits with attached Drones to shot at a different target than their Drones eithout needing Target Lock. It's an unconsiderable expense, but all the freebies are well worth it.

This would also allow the above solo-Tide to split fire is it also takes a Shielded Missile Drone (or two), saving points for an EWO or VT.

SJ

Only Riptide that could join drones would be O'vesa i guess.

Riptides can taked Shielded Missiles drones.

And in lou of multiple replies to the same post, Drone-Net buffs all Drones in the army, not just the Drones in its formation.

SJ

acidlemon wrote:
Hey, i don't know if this has been touched upon yet (who am i kidding it probably already has) but what are some tips and strategies to kill wraith knight(s) without using destroyer missiles with marker lights?

The Dawn Blade detachment excels at this - The re-rolls gives even Fire Warriors a good chance of hurting one.

Theyre replying in saying the special rules are only on the formation. The +1BS is army wide, the special rules are not.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

X078 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If you take a Drone-Net, all Drones gain Split Fire, which allows solo suits with attached Drones to shot at a different target than their Drones eithout needing Target Lock. It's an unconsiderable expense, but all the freebies are well worth it.

This would also allow the above solo-Tide to split fire is it also takes a Shielded Missile Drone (or two), saving points for an EWO or VT.

SJ

Only Riptide that could join drones would be O'vesa i guess.

Riptides can taked Shielded Missiles drones.

And in lou of multiple replies to the same post, Drone-Net buffs all Drones in the army, not just the Drones in its formation.

SJ

Sorry wrong again. Drone net gives the entire detachment +1 BS to drones. All the other rules are ONLY for the drone net formation.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

X078 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If you take a Drone-Net, all Drones gain Split Fire, which allows solo suits with attached Drones to shot at a different target than their Drones eithout needing Target Lock. It's an unconsiderable expense, but all the freebies are well worth it.

This would also allow the above solo-Tide to split fire is it also takes a Shielded Missile Drone (or two), saving points for an EWO or VT.

SJ

Only Riptide that could join drones would be O'vesa i guess.

Riptides can taked Shielded Missiles drones.

And in lou of multiple replies to the same post, Drone-Net buffs all Drones in the army, not just the Drones in its formation.

SJ

Sorry wrong again. Drone net gives the entire detachment +1 BS to drones. All the other rules are ONLY for the drone net formation.

Well, dang.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

X078 wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
If you take a Drone-Net, all Drones gain Split Fire, which allows solo suits with attached Drones to shot at a different target than their Drones eithout needing Target Lock. It's an unconsiderable expense, but all the freebies are well worth it.

This would also allow the above solo-Tide to split fire is it also takes a Shielded Missile Drone (or two), saving points for an EWO or VT.

SJ

Only Riptide that could join drones would be O'vesa i guess.

Riptides can taked Shielded Missiles drones.

And in lou of multiple replies to the same post, Drone-Net buffs all Drones in the army, not just the Drones in its formation.

SJ

Sorry wrong again. Drone net gives the entire detachment +1 BS to drones. All the other rules are ONLY for the drone net formation.

Well, dang.

SJ

Yeah. It would be insanely good (it already is, but even more so) if all drones got all those special rules.

acidlemon wrote:
Hey, i don't know if this has been touched upon yet (who am i kidding it probably already has) but what are some tips and strategies to kill wraith knight(s) without using destroyer missiles with marker lights?

I have a specific anti-superheavy unit designed:

Shadowsun,
Her reroll ones when shooting drone,
Three man crisis unit with dual fusion,
Shas'vre has the Puretide chip,
Whatever number of ablative drones you feel like taking.

Deep strike in, ideally guided by a homing beacon if possible. Mark up the superheavy unit with four lights, turn on BS5 and Ignores Cover, designate own unit for rerolling ones, pick Monster or Tank Hunters as appropriate.

You now have 8 functionally BS 10 S8 AP 1 Melta shots rerolling wounds and penetration, plus some drone pot shots if it's a GC target. You also don't count as a suicide unit, as you have a 3d6 jet move plus stealth and shrouded.

On their test run the unit took 5 wounds off a Stormsurge without marker support, letting me finish it off with other shooting.

changemod wrote:

acidlemon wrote:
Hey, i don't know if this has been touched upon yet (who am i kidding it probably already has) but what are some tips and strategies to kill wraith knight(s) without using destroyer missiles with marker lights?

I have a specific anti-superheavy unit designed:

Shadowsun,
Her reroll ones when shooting drone,
Three man crisis unit with dual fusion,
Shas'vre has the Puretide chip,
Whatever number of ablative drones you feel like taking.

Deep strike in, ideally guided by a homing beacon if possible. Mark up the superheavy unit with four lights, turn on BS5 and Ignores Cover, designate own unit for rerolling ones, pick Monster or Tank Hunters as appropriate.

You now have 8 functionally BS 10 S8 AP 1 Melta shots rerolling wounds and penetration, plus some drone pot shots if it's a GC target. You also don't count as a suicide unit, as you have a 3d6 jet move plus stealth and shrouded.

On their test run the unit took 5 wounds off a Stormsurge without marker support, letting me finish it off with other shooting.

Only Neg here is how you house rule the BRB FAQ on infiltrate, cause RAW Shadowsun can't join a unit of crisis suits (infiltrate special rule restrictions) but otherwise, she doesn't add too much that a commander wouldn't be able too himself anyway. At least in this build.

even still though.. it takes an enormous amount of fusion to take out a Knight... You need 9 wounds to wipe out a non shield Knight, that means regardless of BS and buffs you would need 18 hits w/o puretide and 12 hits w/ puretide in order to do those 9 wounds.. that's 9 and 6 suits respectively which is a huge point sink... and I assumed your hitting ALL your hits there..

changemod wrote:

acidlemon wrote:
Hey, i don't know if this has been touched upon yet (who am i kidding it probably already has) but what are some tips and strategies to kill wraith knight(s) without using destroyer missiles with marker lights?

I have a specific anti-superheavy unit designed:

Shadowsun,
Her reroll ones when shooting drone,
Three man crisis unit with dual fusion,
Shas'vre has the Puretide chip,
Whatever number of ablative drones you feel like taking.

Deep strike in, ideally guided by a homing beacon if possible. Mark up the superheavy unit with four lights, turn on BS5 and Ignores Cover, designate own unit for rerolling ones, pick Monster or Tank Hunters as appropriate.

You now have 8 functionally BS 10 S8 AP 1 Melta shots rerolling wounds and penetration, plus some drone pot shots if it's a GC target. You also don't count as a suicide unit, as you have a 3d6 jet move plus stealth and shrouded.

On their test run the unit took 5 wounds off a Stormsurge without marker support, letting me finish it off with other shooting.

Assuming your opponent took a Shield, this was really, really lucky. Don't get complacent in later games.

raverrn wrote:Assuming your opponent took a Shield, this was really, really lucky. Don't get complacent in later games.

No shield, but no marker support under the circumstances either - Was a three against three player match, I wanted to test the unit anyhow, so I crammed a minimal allied detachment next to a OSC to contribute both a solid workhorse/distraction unit and a superheavy hunter.

I figure the shield/marker thing is mostly a wash really. The point is less to straight up annihilate the opposing superheavy than to cripple it and make it killable without taking my own.

Grizzyzz wrote:Only Neg here is how you house rule the BRB FAQ on infiltrate, cause RAW Shadowsun can't join a unit of crisis suits (infiltrate special rule restrictions) but otherwise, she doesn't add too much that a commander wouldn't be able too himself anyway. At least in this build.

even still though.. it takes an enormous amount of fusion to take out a Knight... You need 9 wounds to wipe out a non shield Knight, that means regardless of BS and buffs you would need 18 hits w/o puretide and 12 hits w/ puretide in order to do those 9 wounds.. that's 9 and 6 suits respectively which is a huge point sink... and I assumed your hitting ALL your hits there.

A Wraithknight you mean? As far as an Imperial Knight goes, if they can land in melta range it's more or less dead.

As for what Shadowsun adds, and without her I'd have just taken more crisis suits rather than bothering with a commander, is that between 3d6 thrust and Stealth/Shrouded, she lets me avoid the unit being a suicide unit.

changemod wrote:

Grizzyzz wrote:Only Neg here is how you house rule the BRB FAQ on infiltrate, cause RAW Shadowsun can't join a unit of crisis suits (infiltrate special rule restrictions) but otherwise, she doesn't add too much that a commander wouldn't be able too himself anyway. At least in this build.

even still though.. it takes an enormous amount of fusion to take out a Knight... You need 9 wounds to wipe out a non shield Knight, that means regardless of BS and buffs you would need 18 hits w/o puretide and 12 hits w/ puretide in order to do those 9 wounds.. that's 9 and 6 suits respectively which is a huge point sink... and I assumed your hitting ALL your hits there.

A Wraithknight you mean? As far as an Imperial Knight goes, if they can land in melta range it's more or less dead.

yeah a wraithknight.

Disallowing Shadowsun to join any unit during deployment that ISNT infiltrating is absolute bullcrap and makes no sense. I dont know a single HQ thats actually good in any remote sense with Infiltrate except Shadowsun. Considering Ork Commandos are allowed to outflank with an HQ (Snikrot specifically says he cannot ambush when another IC is in the unit, which is impossible unless its legal) i dont understand why anyone would deny it the other way around, including deepstrike. No Infiltrate, but other than that its legal. Allowing her to infiltrate a unit that isnt stealths would be ridiculous lol (Optimum placement Broadsides ftw)

That being said i dont think i'd want to put that many points in a unit that close to a WK. 8 meltas, even with BS5 reroll 1s and reroll 4+ wounds odds are wont kill it since they have 6 wounds and at least FNP if you stripped cover and they didnt take shields. If you dont kill it, he will charge them and even without the sword he will murder them. Unless you deepstriked at max fusion range that is, which given scatter problems you should never try because you are bound to scatter backwards 4-5 inches and miss entirely lol.
And the few times ive used shadowsun, banking on that 3D6 to get you away always bites you in the ass.

Against an IK, yeah that would kill it dead. 8 meltas getting doublepen would murder the hell out of any vehicle, super or not. Deepstrike on a side that doesnt have its shield on it, average dice its dead (remember, explodes on 5+ cause D3 damage in addition to the pen, so in theory only 3 meltas are even needed if you can roll well enough)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Disallowing Shadowsun to join any unit during deployment that ISNT infiltrating is absolute bullcrap and makes no sense. I dont know a single HQ thats actually good in any remote sense with Infiltrate except Shadowsun. Considering Ork Commandos are allowed to outflank with an HQ (Snikrot specifically says he cannot ambush when another IC is in the unit, which is impossible unless its legal) i dont understand why anyone would deny it the other way around, including deepstrike. No Infiltrate, but other than that its legal. Allowing her to infiltrate a unit that isnt stealths would be ridiculous lol (Optimum placement Broadsides ftw)

Don't shoot the messenger

Yeah I agree it is stupid, I have a worse example. Captain Shrike, he has infiltrate and he has a special rule where he can only join Jump pack units in deployment.. which is impossible given RAW of the infiltrate FAQ so he technically has to deploy solo.

Stupid yes, which is why I mentioned house rule interpretation. Our FLGS house rule is you must start in reserves if either the IC or unit does not have infiltrate; Allowing use of these specific HQs in fluffy games.

Thats how we do it too. Play the game logically, not RAW.

That makes 2 cases where completely preventing any deployment around infiltrating units/hqs and noninfiltrating throws that FAQ out the window. Though that one is unplayable without houserule while the ork one is just "Well why does it say this then?" lol. Gotta admit i miss running Snikrot with Ghazzy and Ambushing behind enemy lines...sadly i cannot ambush anymore with'm and ghazzy sucks now

Its always been a general consensus even before that FAQ that you cant give a unit infiltrate with an infiltrate HQ. For the exact reason i mentioned earlier lol (broadsides)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Unless you deepstriked at max fusion range that is, which given scatter problems you should never try because you are bound to scatter backwards 4-5 inches and miss entirely lol.

Homing beacons. I play a lot of stealth suits.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Thats how we do it too. Play the game logically, not RAW.

That makes 2 cases where completely preventing any deployment around infiltrating units/hqs and noninfiltrating throws that FAQ out the window. Though that one is unplayable without houserule while the ork one is just "Well why does it say this then?" lol. Gotta admit i miss running Snikrot with Ghazzy and Ambushing behind enemy lines...sadly i cannot ambush anymore with'm and ghazzy sucks now

Its always been a general consensus even before that FAQ that you cant give a unit infiltrate with an infiltrate HQ. For the exact reason i mentioned earlier lol (broadsides)

Broadsides, centstars, many others... cypher doing shenanigans with all kinds of units... there definitely needed to be an FAQ, but if GW meant it as "the act of" infiltrating during deployment, they should have either written the FAQ differently or adjusted the original rule to not use "models with the infiltrate usr" and "infiltrators" as one in the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
of course as discussed with some GW managers in my area we all agree it is meant to be the "act of" but we also agree the FAQ needs an FAQ to explicitly say that lolzz

acidlemon wrote:
Hey, i don't know if this has been touched upon yet (who am i kidding it probably already has) but what are some tips and strategies to kill wraith knight(s) without using destroyer missiles with marker lights?

Surprised that no one has said what I think to be the single easiest way - Optimized Stealth Cadre

Since you declare wall of mirrors at the start of your shooting phase, and the knight has to declare the facing of his shield at the start of your shooting phase, and since when it's your turn you decide what order simultaneous actions go in, it goes like this:

1) "Good sir, which way would you like your ion shields to face?"

2) "To the rear, of course! I am prepared for your Tau trickery!"

3) "Ok then. I will not activate my wall of mirrors this turn. I lose ignores cover and the ability to hit rear armor, as well as a point of ballistic skill"

4) ".....wait! Then I want to put my shields to the facing that you are on!"

5) "Ok you can do that. But if you do, I will activate my wall of mirrors, striking rear armor with my shots"

6) "......FML"

hehehe. This is true true true.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Thats how we do it too. Play the game logically, not RAW.

That makes 2 cases where completely preventing any deployment around infiltrating units/hqs and noninfiltrating throws that FAQ out the window. Though that one is unplayable without houserule while the ork one is just "Well why does it say this then?" lol. Gotta admit i miss running Snikrot with Ghazzy and Ambushing behind enemy lines...sadly i cannot ambush anymore with'm and ghazzy sucks now

Its always been a general consensus even before that FAQ that you cant give a unit infiltrate with an infiltrate HQ. For the exact reason i mentioned earlier lol (broadsides)

Broadsides, centstars, many others... cypher doing shenanigans with all kinds of units... there definitely needed to be an FAQ, but if GW meant it as "the act of" infiltrating during deployment, they should have either written the FAQ differently or adjusted the original rule to not use "models with the infiltrate usr" and "infiltrators" as one in the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
of course as discussed with some GW managers in my area we all agree it is meant to be the "act of" but we also agree the FAQ needs an FAQ to explicitly say that lolzz

Infiltrate is a strange USR in any case since technically it's not an option at all. An opponent pointed that out to me and I had to reread it since it gets hard after playing 6 of 7 editions. Infiltrators ARE deployed last and following the USR, it's no longer an option even in 7th. I also play it as they can join a unit in reserve though, since this makes at least some sense. Otherwise I'd say infiltrate is more of a negative then a positive. It already hoses units like striking scorpions and sicarain infiltrators since they can never deploy normally and counter charge turn 1 lol.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Infiltrate is a strange USR...It already hoses units like striking scorpions and sicarain infiltrators since they can never deploy normally and counter charge turn 1 lol.

To be fair, they aren't part of the Greater Good. Struggle and misfortune are to be expected of lesser races.

All that means is they cant deploy normally, which doesnt really mean anything if you want them in your deployment zone anyway.

Considering Infiltrate itself confers Outflank, there is no way you can say they cant enter the game from noninfiltrate methods. It just HAS to be infiltrating if they arent reserves.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
All that means is they cant deploy normally, which doesnt really mean anything if you want them in your deployment zone anyway.

Considering Infiltrate itself confers Outflank, there is no way you can say they cant enter the game from noninfiltrate methods. It just HAS to be infiltrating if they arent reserves.

Which is exactly where the issues arise. Also having outflank doesn't really matter, the entire space wolf codex has acute senses on models that will never use it. It's not as if GW has a solid plan going in, I stopped giving them the benefit of the doubt a long time ago when regards to rules.

has it occurred that some rules are there for consistency and fluff, not for rulesiness?

Battle Focus on Eldar Jetbikes? Why? Because they are Guardians. Just om Jetbikes. its illogical for them to "lose" battle Focus even if they cant use it on their bikes.

 Jancoran wrote:
has it occurred that some rules are there for consistency and fluff, not for rulesiness?

This should never be the case. Fluff and rules are joined, but ultimately separate, as at the end of the day we can have amazing fluff and the game is still a game, in that the game can be forgiven for making things different in the name of balance, as it already does quite often...

Basically, tournament play does not have the luxury of casual play to change things as they wish, so it's better to have a better balanced game initially, and give people the option to change things within it, then to have an unbalanced game and hope it works for tournaments.

 Tinkrr wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
has it occurred that some rules are there for consistency and fluff, not for rulesiness?

This should never be the case. Fluff and rules are joined, but ultimately separate, as at the end of the day we can have amazing fluff and the game is still a game, in that the game can be forgiven for making things different in the name of balance, as it already does quite often...

Basically, tournament play does not have the luxury of casual play to change things as they wish, so it's better to have a better balanced game initially, and give people the option to change things within it, then to have an unbalanced game and hope it works for tournaments.

But... it literally mattrs not at all that the Space wolves have accute senses. its a fluff thing for most things. Entirely. I see no reason for outrage there.

Shadowsun can't join Crisis during deployment or reserves, sorry. During the game, she can. Same with an Ethereal not being able to join Kroot (or Vespid in the Kroot/Vespid formation). Infiltration "vice-versa" line in the FAQ is the main problem here.

Letting them join such units is totally ok, but is a houserule.