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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/11 21:07:32
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Reliable Krootox
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Space Marines have a clause that lets them specifically take an Allied Detachment of Marines, despite being from the same Faction on the Allies Matrix. The wording is s different for Tau, they can ally with other Tau Faction formations and detachments as Battle Brothers using the Allies Matrix, but the restriction preventing the use of an Allied Detachment is still there.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/11 21:09:53
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/11 21:32:41
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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If you take an allied detachment from FSE, you have to include one troop of 3 crisis suits, even if you run them naked.
If you run an allied CAD from Mont'ka, you still have to take 2 troops, but it lacks the spearhead rule, so they can be one suit each.
With that said. . . the Ranged Support Cadre is excellent for a scout formation.
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'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/12 07:31:21
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Allying FSE and TE is not hazy, it's clearly wrong. Both are the same faction just like CSM and Crimson slaughter are.
Nothing stops you from taking a CAD though, it's just 45 more points minimum entry anyway.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/12 07:32:17
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/12 18:21:49
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun
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Though the only problem with allying in FSE is you are mandated a squad of 3 crisis suits.
Normally not a problem, but considering the vast majority of our formations we use (OSC exception) have crisis units as well....thats potentially a lot of crisis suits. Im already fielding more crisis suits than i usually like doing lol.
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An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/12 22:11:42
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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The only problem is that it's not legal due to allied detachment cant be same faction as your primary. new FSE does not require a 3 suit team any more, a single suit is enough.
And you have TOO MUCH crisis suits in your formation? I struggle to find how to put more in my formations, without freaking riptides...
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/12 23:06:56
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun
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Too many separate units rather, not actual suits. And yes it IS legal, since FSE is still being sold thus still a valid book and it says it CAN be allied in to Tau Empire as battle brothers, and no FAQ/Eratta has changed that yet. Codex/Supp > BRB as to who wins the rules arguement. Supp says its legal, BRB says it isnt, Supp wins. Mont'Ka is not an update for FSE, its just formations involving it.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/12 23:07:40
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/12 23:21:04
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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Vineheart01 wrote:Too many separate units rather, not actual suits.
And yes it IS legal, since FSE is still being sold thus still a valid book and it says it CAN be allied in to Tau Empire as battle brothers, and no FAQ/Eratta has changed that yet. Codex/Supp > BRB as to who wins the rules arguement. Supp says its legal, BRB says it isnt, Supp wins.
Mont'Ka is not an update for FSE, its just formations involving it.
as long as you don't try to mix & match, I don't see too many people saying boo. I have a related question: what about dual CAD from FSE & Mont'ka?
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'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/13 00:29:06
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Dual CAD is fine.
It's not that they are battle brothers or not.. its thus you can't bring an allied detach ment of models from the same army as the primary..
Codec does not overrule anything here..
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/13 02:01:24
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Reliable Krootox
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Grizzyzz wrote:It's not that they are battle brothers or not.. its thus you can't bring an allied detach ment of models from the same army as the primary..
Exactly. Being allowed to ally does not waive the restrictions of an Allied Detachment.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/13 02:53:56
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun
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That makes literally no sense. You are allowed to ally, but you cant. What is the point of the rule allowing FSE to ally with Tau Empire if it DOESNT trump the BRB restrictions? Not that i care anyway i never allied them in to begin with. But it still makes no damn sense.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/13 02:58:27
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/13 03:39:29
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Trustworthy Shas'vre
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Vineheart01 wrote:That makes literally no sense.
You are allowed to ally, but you cant. What is the point of the rule allowing FSE to ally with Tau Empire if it DOESNT trump the BRB restrictions?
Not that i care anyway i never allied them in to begin with. But it still makes no damn sense.
Fse specifically says it can ally with TE, but Mont'ka doesn't.
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'No plan survives contact with the enemy. Who are we?'
'THE ENEMY!!!'
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/13 04:54:18
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Human Auxiliary to the Empire
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The argument isn't that the Codex/Supplement rule doesn't take precedence over the rule from the BRB - it's that the rule was made redundant by the changes regarding allies between 6th and 7th edition. The 7th edition basic rules already allow a Farsight Enclaves detachment and a Tau Empire detachment to be taken together as Battle Brothers, which is what the Farsight Enclaves supplement rules allow. The claim is that because the rule doesn't specifically state "they may take an Allied Detachment" (instead stating they "may ally together"), the rule doesn't allow you to take an Allied Detachment due to the "new" restriction that an Allied Detachment must from a different faction than your Primary Detachment. This interpretation seems a little strange to me because the requirement that an Allied Detachment must be taken from a different faction than the Primary Detachment did exist in 6th edition, and the ability to take an Allied Detachment is specifically what the Farsight Enclaves supplement rule allowed you to do in 6th edition. Conflict between RAW and RAI, I guess.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/13 04:56:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/13 13:04:22
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Peregrim wrote:The argument isn't that the Codex/Supplement rule doesn't take precedence over the rule from the BRB - it's that the rule was made redundant by the changes regarding allies between 6th and 7th edition. The 7th edition basic rules already allow a Farsight Enclaves detachment and a Tau Empire detachment to be taken together as Battle Brothers, which is what the Farsight Enclaves supplement rules allow. The claim is that because the rule doesn't specifically state "they may take an Allied Detachment" (instead stating they "may ally together"), the rule doesn't allow you to take an Allied Detachment due to the "new" restriction that an Allied Detachment must from a different faction than your Primary Detachment. This interpretation seems a little strange to me because the requirement that an Allied Detachment must be taken from a different faction than the Primary Detachment did exist in 6th edition, and the ability to take an Allied Detachment is specifically what the Farsight Enclaves supplement rule allowed you to do in 6th edition. Conflict between RAW and RAI, I guess.
Should note as well, it specifically says in the Space marines codex "chapters may be taking as allied detachments". It is because it is specifically allowed in other codex's that when extended to FSE we cannot do this. Iyanden faced the same situation with Eldar... atleast until they were faded out =(
I need to look at my FSE book again, but I thought it only mentioned "FSE and Tau are battle brothers", which is different from saying they can be taken as an allied detachment. Battle brothers means you can share marker lights, ethereal powers, other buffs from warlord, etc.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/13 15:58:26
Subject: Re:For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Human Auxiliary to the Empire
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"Farsight Enclaves detachments and Codex: Tau Empire detachments may ally together as Battle Brothers."
The question is whether "may ally together" is general permission to take detachments from both (which is already permitted by the basic rules) or if it is specific permission to take an Allied Detachment. As you note, Codex: Space Marines (which was released after the change to 7th edition) specifically refers to Allied Detachments - so there's no debate there. But I'd be inclined to say that the Farsight Enclaves supplement allows the same because that's specifically what it granted permission to do in 6th edition (the different wording is simply due to the edition change). Of course, my ruling infers how "may ally together" should be interpreted based on RAI (due to how the rule worked when it was written) - it's not strictly based on RAW (so it might be more of a HIWPI than a rules interpretation).
AFAIK, unlike Farsight Enclaves, Iyanden did not give Eldar permission to ally even in 6th edition.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/13 16:17:47
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Reliable Krootox
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Thankfully this particular issue is becoming less of a problem due to the multitude of formations and the new lower troop taxes. So if your group/club doesn't allow Allied Detachments from the same Faction as the Primary, you hopefully can pay the lessened tax on a CAD or use a formation that achieves the same result. I tend to not look at Tau troops as a tax in the first place, as they are almost always useful and underrated.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/13 16:37:07
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Plainshow wrote:Thankfully this particular issue is becoming less of a problem due to the multitude of formations and the new lower troop taxes. So if your group/club doesn't allow Allied Detachments from the same Faction as the Primary, you hopefully can pay the lessened tax on a CAD or use a formation that achieves the same result. I tend to not look at Tau troops as a tax in the first place, as they are almost always useful and underrated.
Yeah exactly! Doesn't really even matter as much anymore.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/14 00:34:56
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Lady of the Lake
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Yeh even in the OSC where the stealth suits would seem like tax at first glance, they simply aren't.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/14 01:38:19
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Stealth Suits were never particularly bad, they just didn't do anything the Tau didn't have in other forms, it's the same as the Razorshark Flier, they're fine models, they just aren't contributing anything special that other models don't already provide in large numbers.
That being said, when I did my quick analysis of the Razorshark formation I left out that it's only slightly overcosted in the current meta, but it would be significantly better if fliers become popular as it shoots other fliers normally. Yes, it gets a lot of advantages against Jetbikes and Skimmers, but it gets those and more against fliers, while also being on par with Ghostkeels to some extent.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/14 03:00:56
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Lady of the Lake
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I liked them, but they competed with so many better things before which was probably their problem too I guess.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/14 03:12:52
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Shas'ui with Bonding Knife
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Razershark is ok for its points. There are worse flyers but as you said it provides nothing tau don't already have. In the formation they get free markers to fire their seekers and just enough bonuses they need to handle themselves. I love this formation.
Don't underestimate their turret weapons. You can kite the board and still hit nearly anything you want!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/14 03:21:14
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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I mean really the Tau Codex doesn't have any truly bad units, outside from the Vespids and maybe some of the Kroot special stuff like Krootox, it's just that it has a lot of redundant units that do what other parts of the army do better.
Again, Shielded Missile Drones aren't exactly bad on a Riptide, they just cost so much that you can buy a full Crisis Suit with whatever weapons you want for the price of two, but they do have better toughness and benefit from the formation, while also having a Riptide tank. Though they also have a worse save and can cause the Riptide some issues in turn.
The Stealth Suits aren't bad, they just don't have any weapon options and provide fire power that the basic troops can do better, while also depending on cover stuff. That being said, if you don't have troops thanks to formations and the like they get a lot better, and the formation does give them a lot of benefit, while also making the Ghostkeel better, which is big.
The Razorshark is also just ok normally, but the formation again pushes it up a lot, and if flying units are powerful (not just jet bikes and skimmers) the formation becomes exceptionally strong, though as it stands the amount of fire power it brings is just short of other options.
So yea, we just suffer from redundancy more than anything else :/.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/14 03:29:51
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Lady of the Lake
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Yeh that's what I love about them the most the burst cannon and infiltrate, I wouldn't mind if they had more options but 1 fusion per 3 feels weird when to me the unit feels like a nice cheap infantry harassment team. For CAD I'd rather they be in fast attack over elites that way it's easier to fit them in and they feel more like they belong there with the pathfinders over the elites anyway.
That formation sold me completely on using ghostkeels in the end, I decided to use them as anti air fire and that let me fit in some HRR broadsides in a way I was happy with.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/14 03:32:53
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
Phoenix, AZ, USA
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Homing Beacons on my OSC Stealth squads let my Ret Cadre arrive without scatter. Not a tax at all.
SJ
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“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/14 03:37:46
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Lady of the Lake
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Wasn't sure on putting that much into the beacons myself cause I figured the bubble around the stealth suits would be a bit small since I'm only running 1 OSC. Maybe I should look into it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/14 04:02:16
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Human Auxiliary to the Empire
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Another option to look into if you're taking a Dawn Blade Contingent is Recon Drones with the Pathfinder teams from a Ranged Support Cadre (which gives them Infiltrate). Pathfinders are a bit more economical than Stealth teams at Deepstrike herding (you can field 3 minimum size Pathfinder teams w/ Recon Drone for the same cost as 2 minimum size Stealth teams w/ Homing Becon), and they're comparably survivable (Stealth team has better saves, Pathfinder team has more wounds). Ranged Support Cadre requires you to take a lot of Broadsides (which you're already taking in the Retaliation Cadre), however.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/14 04:09:33
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Lady of the Lake
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Maybe a bit too many broadsides really.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/14 04:22:24
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Big Mek in Kustom Dragster with Soopa-Gun
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Well, technically Broadsides are one of our most powerful if not the most powerful bang for our point in the dex. Very little isnt afraid of them. Problem is $$$ lol.
I had a friend long ago ask me why i run Hammerheads or Skyrays at all when Broadsides are infinitely better for ~100pts more. I could easily field 3 squads of them and still have plenty of an army left. Then i mentioned thats 450USD and he shutup instantly lol
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An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/14 04:46:11
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Lady of the Lake
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Yeh they're $75 each here, I like them but I'm not going to horde them.
What about some of the older xv8 loadouts like the plasma rifle and missile pod ones for the retaliation cadre? I kind of felt like dual plasma or dual missile is better but I was kind of leaning to the balance of it since I'm using HRR broadsides instead of missile and still expect to regularly see marines.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/14 04:51:31
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Human Auxiliary to the Empire
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1x Broadside in each Ranged Support Cadre unit plus 3x in the Retaliation Cadre (for a total of 6) isn't too bad. You know... only $300 (US).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/14 04:53:22
Subject: For the greater good! Tau 7th edition tactica.
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Lady of the Lake
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Peregrim wrote:1x Broadside in each Ranged Support Cadre unit plus 3x in the Retaliation Cadre (for a total of 6) isn't too bad. You know... only $300 (US).
$450 AUD
I actually thought it was more broadsides than that tbh.
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