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 luke1705 wrote:
Oh and also I'm thinking that the increase in accuracy might merit the command and control node for the commander instead of stims. Same cost and I think I'd rather have more guaranteed markerlights than a slight increase in durability for the commander. While it may deny warlord longer, not often are motivated players going to find it super difficult to kill a 4W T5 2+ save model, especially when his "invulnerable save" is basically "I hope I'm in cover"

Good maneuvering will go a long way in keeping him alive, with or without Stims. If you feel you want more coverage on offence, go CnC. I think it can be devistating when used in conjunction a list like yours. The one unit of Stormsurges can devistate a unit they would normally barely touch due to snapfireing, with just a few sixes from the Commander's Twin-Linked Markerdrones.

I'm quite surprised at the amount of love a decked-out pure Mark'O is getting. In the current climate of Drone Nets all over the place, 93+ points is an exorbitant amount to spend on 4 BS5 marker light shots per turn, especially when they're now starting at BS3. You have to join the bare-bones Mark'O to a unit of 11 drones before that becomes a winning proposition in terms of marker hits per point, and that number climb as you add wargear to your commander. It's a bit more worthwhile if you go with the old school of thought and have a sizable Marker Drone unit for the boss to roll with and a target lock to allow him to shoot his weapons at something else. I understand that adding durability to your main marker source is a driving factor in having a Mark'O, but is he really that much more durable than 7-9 drones that can jink and go to ground for a 3+ save? That one is a bit of a toss-up, I suppose. At the very least, I guess he's probably better at sucking up any spare small arms fire your opponent may choose to toss your way.

Of course, if you're ignoring ITC and allowing a buffmander's special rules to work with everything shooting at a single target with him. He then becomes an auto-include in any army sporting a Hunter Contingent.

Having essentially guaranteed markerlights (and more durable markerlights) is a thing.

What other HQ would you recommend?

The idea is that you must field a HQ and often a commander is by far the best choice (I have zero fire warriors for a Cadre guy to join).

Then it is a case of force multiplying, spending 8pts to make use of BS5. Whilst you can buy a drone net... that costs more than 8pts. The minimum expenditure is high.

If, like lots of people, you are running a riptide or three and maybe a stormsurge, Tetra and such, a commander won't have any place to go, other than a drone squad. Such a drone squad can be purchased cheaply and the Dv of improvement is great!

Razerous wrote:
The idea is that you must field a HQ and often a commander is by far the best choice (I have zero fire warriors for a Cadre guy to join).

Then it is a case of force multiplying, spending 8pts to make use of BS5. Whilst you can buy a drone net... that costs more than 8pts. The minimum expenditure is high.

If, like lots of people, you are running a riptide or three and maybe a stormsurge, Tetra and such, a commander won't have any place to go, other than a drone squad. Such a drone squad can be purchased cheaply and the Dv of improvement is great!

I kind of wonder if having a single big markerlight unit (Mark'O and blob of marker drones) is any better than having four smaller marker drone units (Drone Net). I had a few marker drones go down in a game recently and I rolled an 11 for leadership on my Mark'O squad, which promptly fled off the table. At least with four smaller units your opponent has to track down more stuff and waste more shots doing it. I think it might be kind of like "six in one hand, a half dozen in the other". Both strategies have their pros and cons.

You are right about that the commander is the best HQ choice for Tau, though. Fireblades are situational (good only for large Fire Warrior blobs), Ethereals are very much a risk even if their abilities are good, and most of the named characters are also pretty situational. The Commander is like the Tau version of Space Marine Chapter Masters, Chaos Lords, Ork Warbosses, and Necron Overlords. All of these characters are swiss army knives for their respective armies.

That depends how you want to split your fire. Unless the big blob is also from the formation, you can only shoot at 1 unit (and therefore you only have markerlights for one unit). That's not insignificant. And the benefit of intercepting drones with split fire...jink...I don't think I can go back

Having essentially guaranteed markerlights (and more durable markerlights) is a thing.

Well, like I said, the statistical break-even point for a buffmander is (just under) 11 drones, assuming a starting BS of 3. The drone net flipped the script a bit on that one. Hitting more often with fewer drones but for the same amount of marker light hits isn't a guarantee. You're just messing with the probabilities a little. I'm also not totally sold on 4 T5 2+ wounds being markedly more durable than 8-ish T4 3+ cover wounds in multiple units. I think that one is more of a meta/judgment call than anything.

You're right that the stat-check durability might not be worth everything, but I also take into account standard deviation.

Say you run a unit of 4 drones with your commander, who has the CNC chip. You're hitting on a re-rollable 2+. Chances of getting 4 markerlights? 90 percent.

Compare that to your normal BS 3 drones, who get 4 hits a mere 6% of the time, just as much as they get zero hits. 25% of the time, they get 3 hits, but that is equally as likely to wind up as just one hit. The two hit result only happens 37% of the time.

40k is a dice game, but the best lists make things less of a dice game and more reliable. Any time you can do that, it very well can be worth it's weight in gold. And with split fire, that can affect two squads

Oh and LD 10 is nice too

LD 10 IS nice.

 luke1705 wrote:
You're right that the stat-check durability might not be worth everything, but I also take into account standard deviation.

Say you run a unit of 4 drones with your commander, who has the CNC chip. You're hitting on a re-rollable 2+. Chances of getting 4 markerlights? 90 percent.

Compare that to your normal BS 3 drones, who get 4 hits a mere 6% of the time, just as much as they get zero hits. 25% of the time, they get 3 hits, but that is equally as likely to wind up as just one hit. The two hit result only happens 37% of the time.

40k is a dice game, but the best lists make things less of a dice game and more reliable. Any time you can do that, it very well can be worth it's weight in gold. And with split fire, that can affect two squads

Oh and LD 10 is nice too

So is it even worth it to run a Dawn Blade contingent in 1850 points? Are the command benefits worth it, or is it better to just have a cad and formation detatchments, or only formation detatchments? I felt like the Killing Blow was pretty decent, especially since strength D and 10 weapons are hard to come by nowadays, with hammerheads being bad...?

 luke1705 wrote:
You're right that the stat-check durability might not be worth everything, but I also take into account standard deviation.

Say you run a unit of 4 drones with your commander, who has the CNC chip. You're hitting on a re-rollable 2+. Chances of getting 4 markerlights? 90 percent.

Compare that to your normal BS 3 drones, who get 4 hits a mere 6% of the time, just as much as they get zero hits. 25% of the time, they get 3 hits, but that is equally as likely to wind up as just one hit. The two hit result only happens 37% of the time.

40k is a dice game, but the best lists make things less of a dice game and more reliable. Any time you can do that, it very well can be worth it's weight in gold. And with split fire, that can affect two squads

Oh and LD 10 is nice too

But for the cost of that unit you can run a unit of 11 drones who will get 4 or more a lot of the time

Sicarioos,

The dawn blade contingent is good against big squads or deathstars because your efficiency goes up, but only against 1 unit. It's not unlike having one big unit of markerlights, except that you can't ignore cover. I prefer the command benefit of having a CAD with objective secured, but to be honest I haven't given the dawn blade a fair shake. I think it's pretty good unless you're going up against a mega MSU list like battle company.

Oldmike,

How long do you think those 11 drones are going to last though? Against non-AP 2 weaponry, the commander saves 3 times more wounds than a standard drone, doesn't cause leadership checks when he loses wounds, and is inherently LD 10. His four wounds are like 12 drone wounds.

Furthermore, I say again who else are you going to have as your warlord? There are definitely good options to have with him having weapons as a buffmander - it just doesn't work in my list and TBH you could get a budget buffmander in any squad of crisis suits.

Assembled my 2nd Ghostkeel, much more straightforward then the 1st time round. Looking forward to giving my updated Tau a spin!

Running at 1850, a tanky buffmander with drone controller, A ministar of 9 crisis suits with missile pods and target locks + 3 ablative bodies...ahem I mean marker drones. A single crisis suit to fill out the other troop slot with missile pods. 3 skyrays with disruption pods and an OSC with the full 3 Ghostkeels (fusion, EWO, target locks on two), two units of 3 stealth suits and finally to round it off...an inquisitor with servo skulls.

Most people around here run good, but not ultra competitive lists, so I think it'll fit the bill. Has some obvious weaknesses in lacking ap2 and psychic defense. Wouldn't be too difficult to fit in a culexus with some shuffling, but whilst I've run into the psychic deathstar, it isn't a regular occurrence.

Can inquisition take a fortification if they are your primary faction? Was thinking of making the inquisitor the warlord so I could make the FSE Cad an allied detachment, dropping the single crisis suit and disruption pods on the skyrays, consolidating the Rays into a single unit and using the saved points to run a void shield generator which can help vs some psychic powers I've read and is handy in general.

 Bryan01 wrote:
Assembled my 2nd Ghostkeel, much more straightforward then the 1st time round. Looking forward to giving my updated Tau a spin!

Running at 1850, a tanky buffmander with drone controller, A ministar of 9 crisis suits with missile pods and target locks + 3 ablative bodies...ahem I mean marker drones. A single crisis suit to fill out the other troop slot with missile pods. 3 skyrays with disruption pods and an OSC with the full 3 Ghostkeels (fusion, EWO, target locks on two), two units of 3 stealth suits and finally to round it off...an inquisitor with servo skulls.

Most people around here run good, but not ultra competitive lists, so I think it'll fit the bill. Has some obvious weaknesses in lacking ap2 and psychic defense. Wouldn't be too difficult to fit in a culexus with some shuffling, but whilst I've run into the psychic deathstar, it isn't a regular occurrence.

Can inquisition take a fortification if they are your primary faction? Was thinking of making the inquisitor the warlord so I could make the FSE Cad an allied detachment, dropping the single crisis suit and disruption pods on the skyrays, consolidating the Rays into a single unit and using the saved points to run a void shield generator which can help vs some psychic powers I've read and is handy in general.

So I have seen that pretty prevalent around here. Why do you run missile pods over the other options for suits? I can understand the plasma rifles because ap2, but missile pods seems ... Underwhelming to me.

The missile pod is a pretty good all rounder option imo. It has range, ap and strength, combined with an okay rate of fire. Not terribly keen on the lone suit with them, but the mini star crisis suits can each target separate units, with tank/monster hunter, ignore cover and twin linked. I've run a smaller version of this unit a few times, and it wrecks light vehicles! Can hurt most other things via wound/hp spam whilst the buffmander (2+ save, t5, 5+ fnp) & drones tank shots for the unit.

Any other weapon besides the missile pods would necessitate the unit getting into closer range.

Plainshow wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
command and control node for the commander. Skip the weapons on him. use those points elsewhere.

If you have issues getting Markerlights on hard to hit targets I would also second trying the CnC Node.

So ran my list this weekend, Opted to take your advice and ran C&C node on Mark'o gave him 2 flamers as well.. mainly I had to quickly fill points, but I will adjust my list a bit more again.

WOW is all I have to say... my buddy was running a 2 CAD GK army with 6 dreadknights, I have seen it played before and was a little nervous.. until i was done my turn 1 and had killed three of them. and then turn 2 when two more went down... it was pretty much a slaughter from there, the riptide wing with burst tides was simply an abomination. I will never use it in a casual game, it was too devastating.

yip. It's pretty good.

 luke1705 wrote:
Sicarioos,

The dawn blade contingent is good against big squads or deathstars because your efficiency goes up, but only against 1 unit. It's not unlike having one big unit of markerlights, except that you can't ignore cover. I prefer the command benefit of having a CAD with objective secured, but to be honest I haven't given the dawn blade a fair shake. I think it's pretty good unless you're going up against a mega MSU list like battle company.

Oldmike,

How long do you think those 11 drones are going to last though? Against non-AP 2 weaponry, the commander saves 3 times more wounds than a standard drone, doesn't cause leadership checks when he loses wounds, and is inherently LD 10. His four wounds are like 12 drone wounds.

Furthermore, I say again who else are you going to have as your warlord? There are definitely good options to have with him having weapons as a buffmander - it just doesn't work in my list and TBH you could get a budget buffmander in any squad of crisis suits.

You be shocked how well jinking drone nets stay up 11 drones are almost 3/4 of the net. I use my commander to attack and tank for a crisis team
Plasma rifles.

I want to run a dawn blade but yet to have a chance

Oldmike wrote:

I want to run a dawn blade but yet to have a chance

I really like the Dawn Blade.. at the same time, I think the Hunter Cadre requires too many units, and while the retaliation cadre is great, it also pigeon holes you. You only get reserve and BS bonuses when the entire formation deep strikes.. so you can't say deploy your riptide or broadsides and reserve the rest and receive the bonus.

While that is fine, it then puts you in a situation, that if you were going to do that anyway.. you might as well have just run a CAD and kept objective secured because it is the best troop ability in the game (if you have objectives).

I still run it though all the time

 Grizzyzz wrote:
WOW is all I have to say... my buddy was running a 2 CAD GK army with 6 dreadknights, I have seen it played before and was a little nervous.. until i was done my turn 1 and had killed three of them. and then turn 2 when two more went down... it was pretty much a slaughter from there, the riptide wing with burst tides was simply an abomination. I will never use it in a casual game, it was too devastating.

Nice! GK Dreadknight Spam can be tough to crack without a ton of AP2. Did you see many rends on the HBCs or did you just force buckets of saves? I'm glad you ended up putting together a nutcracker. I know I can hem and haw for hours over a list.
That's one frustration you don't want to complain too loud about: having so many good units and formations that you can get a migraine trying to fit all together (First World Problems). You can take lots of the good stuff, but if it doesn't work cohesively, you still can get crushed. The flipside is great, though. Getting a force that works as a whole AND fits the style of play that you have=pure bliss.

 Plainshow wrote:

Nice! GK Dreadknight Spam can be tough to crack without a ton of AP2. Did you see many rends on the HBCs or did you just force buckets of saves?

So game pretty much went like this. **note.. my warlord trait was reroll 1s bubble... so clutch with this list**

Turn 1a - GKs, shunted 5 dreads up and with flamers blew away my two units of tetras.. my saving grace is that he needed 2 per squad limiting fire on other things.. but he was trying to take all the markers he could away, and no possible way to have charged me this turn anyway which is what he wants. He only got off 3 santuary's. His warlord and marines dropped down but scattered 12" back.. honestly saving them as they wouldn't have done much anyway.. I denied his psychic shriek (talismon bubble)

Turn 1b - My drone commander lit up one dreadknight without sanctuary. Riptides w/ reroll nova all got their rend cannons spinning. Storm surge used the 6 markerlights i had on the knight to launch 2 missles at bs5... and i rolled both hits.. and a 6... even with ITC nerf.. that was enough to take him out. Stormsurge then used his assault 2 D shotty and blew up another non sancuary knight. I popped my hailfire this turn and don't remember how many rends.. about average it seemed.. but with 6 shooting attacks going out with 12 rending shots each.. it was a combo of weight of dice and rends that wiped out 1 more Knight with sanctuary, and wounding the others. I gambled and charged my stormsurge at his nearest dread and didnt roll a 6 on stomps boo...

* surge and knight were locked in combat for the rest of the game *

Turn 2a GK second libby did not come in from reserves.. marines did.. his Dread did the only thing he could which was move up to charge a riptide. And with counterfire I managed a few hits.. and he failed a save and died (only had one wound left) His warlord and marines went to charge another riptide, but failed the charge..

Turn 2b Nova'd up the riptides again.. blew away his warlord and at this point the game was pretty much over... I had this piranha wing that was just kinda hanging out.. they killed off some marines with their seeker missiles here and there.


Yep that was pretty much it..

 Plainshow wrote:

I'm glad you ended up putting together a nutcracker. I know I can hem and haw for hours over a list.

*remembers MTG* *shudders*

 Grizzyzz wrote:
You only get reserve and BS bonuses when the entire formation deep strikes..

You get the +1BS from Drop Zone Clear as long as you arrive from deepstrike. I agree that the bonuses are not worth trading ObSec. Even in a Dawn Bade I stil find the Hunter Cadre to be my go-to core choice due to the flexibility of the unit selection. Especially since I have a hard time not bringing a Stormsurge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grizzyzz wrote:
So game pretty much went like this. **note.. my warlord trait was reroll 1s bubble... so clutch with this list**

I have just taken to rolling on the command table as well. I find that while Strategic is still probably the better overall chart, this trait and the leadership bubble trait can be so game changing, it's worth it. When I run the Ghostkeel wing I roll Strategic exclusively, just to maximize the chance to get Night Attacker or Conquerer of Cities and have the wing hand out Shrouded instead of Stealth.

Objective Secured is a ket ability. I don't like going without it.

Donno, I for one love T2 guaranteed deep strike.

Let's me trust my fusion drop to clear tanks and imp knights.

I've been tinkering with the outflanking list someone posted a couple pages back since I really, really like the concept. Here's what I came up with:

Infiltration Cadre
3x4 Pathfinders – 3 rail rifles – 267
2x3 Stealth Suits – positional relay – 190
Piranha – fusion – 50

Drone Network
4x4 Marker Drones - 224

FSE CAD
Commander – 2 fusion – 115
2xCrisis Suit – 2 CIB, BKR - 106
3xCrisis Suit – 2 fusion, BKR – 159
Crisis Suit – 2 flamers, BKR - 33
Stormsurge – pulse driver, AFP, EWO, shield generator – 438
Y'Vahra – EWO, stims – 270

1849

As compared with the list posted previously, you sacrifice a little durability (Crisis Suits vs. a bunch of bodies plus a Riptide) but gain a decent amount of firepower and a lot of mobility and flexibility. With the suits - which are all individual units - Deep Striking, you aren't limited to coming in off of a board edge and can (ideally) target your alpha strike exactly where you need it.

I was thinking of retooling some upgrades to get iridium on the Commander, but whatever works. He'll probably hop around with the fusion suits or possibly the Pathfinders. I don't have a well-defined role for him in mind, beyond the obvious drop-n-pop.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

Spoiler:

 Plainshow wrote:

Nice! GK Dreadknight Spam can be tough to crack without a ton of AP2. Did you see many rends on the HBCs or did you just force buckets of saves?

So game pretty much went like this. **note.. my warlord trait was reroll 1s bubble... so clutch with this list**

Turn 1a - GKs, shunted 5 dreads up and with flamers blew away my two units of tetras.. my saving grace is that he needed 2 per squad limiting fire on other things.. but he was trying to take all the markers he could away, and no possible way to have charged me this turn anyway which is what he wants. He only got off 3 santuary's. His warlord and marines dropped down but scattered 12" back.. honestly saving them as they wouldn't have done much anyway.. I denied his psychic shriek (talismon bubble)

Turn 1b - My drone commander lit up one dreadknight without sanctuary. Riptides w/ reroll nova all got their rend cannons spinning. Storm surge used the 6 markerlights i had on the knight to launch 2 missles at bs5... and i rolled both hits.. and a 6... even with ITC nerf.. that was enough to take him out. Stormsurge then used his assault 2 D shotty and blew up another non sancuary knight. I popped my hailfire this turn and don't remember how many rends.. about average it seemed.. but with 6 shooting attacks going out with 12 rending shots each.. it was a combo of weight of dice and rends that wiped out 1 more Knight with sanctuary, and wounding the others. I gambled and charged my stormsurge at his nearest dread and didnt roll a 6 on stomps boo...

* surge and knight were locked in combat for the rest of the game *

Turn 2a GK second libby did not come in from reserves.. marines did.. his Dread did the only thing he could which was move up to charge a riptide. And with counterfire I managed a few hits.. and he failed a save and died (only had one wound left) His warlord and marines went to charge another riptide, but failed the charge..

Turn 2b Nova'd up the riptides again.. blew away his warlord and at this point the game was pretty much over... I had this piranha wing that was just kinda hanging out.. they killed off some marines with their seeker missiles here and there.


Yep that was pretty much it..

 Plainshow wrote:

I'm glad you ended up putting together a nutcracker. I know I can hem and haw for hours over a list.

*remembers MTG* *shudders*

So I was looking at the Y'Vahra battlesuit on the FW website. Why is this good? Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem like this is any good for the price.

Sicarioos wrote:
So I was looking at the Y'Vahra battlesuit on the FW website. Why is this good? Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem like this is any good for the price.

It destroys tanks and infantry alike. It can oneshot a land raider with ease. On lighter vehicles (say a squadron of vindicators) it could easily maneuver for side armor with the 24" move, then light up (on average) about 3 haywire hits, plus 3 str 8 hits, which should glance/pen twice. That's roughly 6 hull points off AV 11. On AVERAGE.

The infantry flamer it can fire twice, so those pesky invulnerable saves or to wound rolls are of no consequence. Torrent is very good, even at only 6" torrent.

Where it wants to be (right where the action is) it has a native 4++ as well. I'm just waiting for the day that forge world says "you may take these in a riptide wing". You drive a hard bargain. Three please.

Sicarioos wrote:
So I was looking at the Y'Vahra battlesuit on the FW website. Why is this good? Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem like this is any good for the price.

I found out firsthand how brutal they are the other day at a tournament. My Tau were facing an opponent's Tau with a Y'Vahra. That thing was just brutal. Of course it didn't help that my Stormsurge's alpha strike failed utterly (4 D missiles fired at his Stormsurge at BS5, all at D strength. 1 miss, 2 of the hits rolled a 1 on the D table, he saved the other hit), and then on his turn my Stormsurge got blown off the table (he rolled 2 6's on the D table). That Y'Vahra ate up most of everything else, though.

 luke1705 wrote:

Sicarioos wrote:
So I was looking at the Y'Vahra battlesuit on the FW website. Why is this good? Maybe it's just me but it doesn't seem like this is any good for the price.

It destroys tanks and infantry alike. It can oneshot a land raider with ease. On lighter vehicles (say a squadron of vindicators) it could easily maneuver for side armor with the 24" move, then light up (on average) about 3 haywire hits, plus 3 str 8 hits, which should glance/pen twice. That's roughly 6 hull points off AV 11. On AVERAGE.

The infantry flamer it can fire twice, so those pesky invulnerable saves or to wound rolls are of no consequence. Torrent is very good, even at only 6" torrent.

Where it wants to be (right where the action is) it has a native 4++ as well. I'm just waiting for the day that forge world says "you may take these in a riptide wing". You drive a hard bargain. Three please.

Don't forget that his Haywire cannon also has blind, a VERY clutch ability against low initiative armies like Necrons.

But the utility of the model comes from its distraction value; it's almost as durable as a Riptide and it will be annihilating your opponent's back field. Unlike actual Riptides, your opponent will have to do something about this highly mobile and destructive unit. Put him in the gak and he will not disappoint.