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Hmmm... That sounds interesting

 War Kitten wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I would just like to confirm something:

Someone said that my Guard where A) good and B) competitive in every phase.

I would like this person to come right back here and provide evidence because in my experience this is about as far from the truth as it gets.

That was me. Evidence is in the codex. Take a gander i guess?

Since when were Guard good in melee? Nearly all of our units that could do something in melee are either overcosted (bullgryns) or underpowered (blob squads) sometimes both (rough riders). So tell me, my good fellow, how exactly can Guard perform in the assault phase? It has been my experience that we suck in CC.

Ignoring JohnHwangDDMade and his pessimism, as i have said in another thread: My blob squad has died a total opf one time ever and it demolishes almost everything. It's an expensive unit and you have to be willing to pay that price. I am. I have noticed that some people focus a LOT of time and energy on what things cost instead of what they do. I get it. In a vacuum, on a forum, lots of things LOOK Expensive. Then you use them. Then you realize that it ceased to matter.

So I won't derail the thread other than to say that if you want to know more, feel free to PM me. On with the Tau show!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Okay, I scrolled back and took a look at your so called 'power build'

4 Guard sections blobbed together with three psykers and three commissars right?

Wrong. But you can hit me up on PM if you wanna talk about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 master of ordinance wrote:



1st turn:As you moved the blob your Lascannons can not fire even if you left them still. .

Also wrong

Are imperial guard like orks? They seem to use a lot of models

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Are imperial guard like orks? They seem to use a lot of models

Well, yes and no.

They are both horde armies that rely on volume of models rather than quality of shoots.

In game, how they play are very different. They are both currently sporting weak codexes. You may see Orks, IG, BA, CSM, or DE lumped together. It's not that they play in a similar manner, its that they are scraping the bottom of the barrel currently.

Take the IG blob that is being mentioned right now. Most of the power armies can remove it without trying to hard, or can field death stars that put it to shame.

 Jancoran wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
I would just like to confirm something:

Someone said that my Guard where A) good and B) competitive in every phase.

I would like this person to come right back here and provide evidence because in my experience this is about as far from the truth as it gets.

That was me. Evidence is in the codex. Take a gander i guess?

Since when were Guard good in melee? Nearly all of our units that could do something in melee are either overcosted (bullgryns) or underpowered (blob squads) sometimes both (rough riders). So tell me, my good fellow, how exactly can Guard perform in the assault phase? It has been my experience that we suck in CC.

Ignoring JohnHwangDDMade and his pessimism, as i have said in another thread: My blob squad has died a total opf one time ever and it demolishes almost everything. It's an expensive unit and you have to be willing to pay that price. I am. I have noticed that some people focus a LOT of time and energy on what things cost instead of what they do. I get it. In a vacuum, on a forum, lots of things LOOK Expensive. Then you use them. Then you realize that it ceased to matter.

So I won't derail the thread other than to say that if you want to know more, feel free to PM me. On with the Tau show!

This thread is about "other factions", not Tau, so it's not a derail to ask you to justify your statement that IG are a good, fully competitive army on the tabletop.

Merely claiming to have an uber-blob that "demolishes almost everything", and then saying "wrong", "wrong" and redirecting to PM when asked for details makes the claim look more trollish than not.

Given that you made the original claim publicly, the onus is on you to either back it up publicly, or retract it publicly. Not to take it private, and let people imagine that your bold claim just sits without challenge. I will accept silence on your part as an admission that you were just making stuff up.

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Are imperial guard like orks? They seem to use a lot of models

They can be. 120 models isnt unheard of. I've seen lists with like 40 models also. So it varies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


This thread is about "other factions", not Tau, so it's not a derail to ask you to justify your statement that IG are a good, fully competitive army on the tabletop.

Merely claiming to have an uber-blob that "demolishes almost everything", and then saying "wrong", "wrong" and redirecting to PM when asked for details makes the claim look more trollish than not.

Given that you made the original claim publicly, the onus is on you to either back it up publicly, or retract it publicly. Not to take it private, and let people imagine that your bold claim just sits without challenge. I will accept silence on your part as an admission that you were just making stuff up.

Im not merely claiming anything. You have the codex? It's not a super complicated concept. Just saying they can build a very good deathstar and there arent too many things that like seeing it. And it WAS wrong. he's misquoting both the list and the rules!

In order to demolish something, a guardsmen blob first needs to survive. And today there are many, many things out there that can pulverize a guardsmen blob very, very quickly.

Hell, a guardsmen blob is probably one of the very few things in the current game that mere, basic marines armed with boltguns can actually kill quickly and effectively.

 Korinov wrote:
In order to demolish something, a guardsmen blob first needs to survive. And today there are many, many things out there that can pulverize a guardsmen blob very, very quickly.

Hell, a guardsmen blob is probably one of the very few things in the current game that mere, basic marines armed with boltguns can actually kill quickly and effectively.

Yet...not this one. I appreciate that if you know nothing about deploying and moving stuff in an intelligent way, you might well do poorly but thats true of anything and thats a stupid assumption,. Assuming you understand the unit, it will serve you exceptionally well, and can then death blossom on objectives at the end when needed. And it does. It is just a good unit. Try it.

 Jancoran wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
This thread is about "other factions", not Tau, so it's not a derail to ask you to justify your statement that IG are a good, fully competitive army on the tabletop.

Merely claiming to have an uber-blob that "demolishes almost everything", and then saying "wrong", "wrong" and redirecting to PM when asked for details makes the claim look more trollish than not.

Given that you made the original claim publicly, the onus is on you to either back it up publicly, or retract it publicly. Not to take it private, and let people imagine that your bold claim just sits without challenge. I will accept silence on your part as an admission that you were just making stuff up.

Im not merely claiming anything. You have the codex? It's not a super complicated concept. Just saying they can build a very good deathstar and there arent too many things that like seeing it. And it WAS wrong. he's misquoting both the list and the rules!

That's not an answer. That's blowing more smoke. How about you actually explain how your IG "deathstar" blob is composed and how it works, given that it's a just a slow, squishy mass of T3 models that get no save against 90+% of the things on the board.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
In order to demolish something, a guardsmen blob first needs to survive. And today there are many, many things out there that can pulverize a guardsmen blob very, very quickly.

Hell, a guardsmen blob is probably one of the very few things in the current game that mere, basic marines armed with boltguns can actually kill quickly and effectively.

Yet...not this one. I appreciate that if you know nothing about deploying and moving stuff in an intelligent way, you might well do poorly but thats true of anything and thats a stupid assumption,. Assuming you understand the unit, it will serve you exceptionally well, and can then death blossom on objectives at the end when needed. And it does. It is just a good unit. Try it.

L2P, noob.

That's all you've got when asked directly.

Thanks for making it easy!

*ignore*

I'll give you another chance in about a year.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
In order to demolish something, a guardsmen blob first needs to survive. And today there are many, many things out there that can pulverize a guardsmen blob very, very quickly.

Hell, a guardsmen blob is probably one of the very few things in the current game that mere, basic marines armed with boltguns can actually kill quickly and effectively.

Yet...not this one. I appreciate that if you know nothing about deploying and moving stuff in an intelligent way, you might well do poorly but thats true of anything and thats a stupid assumption,. Assuming you understand the unit, it will serve you exceptionally well, and can then death blossom on objectives at the end when needed. And it does. It is just a good unit. Try it.

Ad hominem attacks on Korinov do nothing to reinforce your case.

Again, define exactly what your blob is and what it does. Explain how you're "deploying and moving" "in an intelligent way" so that "it will serve you exceptionally well". Explain how it is "a good unit".

If all you can do is say "wrong" and "it works", that's nonsense.

 Jancoran wrote:

 Korinov wrote:
In order to demolish something, a guardsmen blob first needs to survive. And today there are many, many things out there that can pulverize a guardsmen blob very, very quickly.

Hell, a guardsmen blob is probably one of the very few things in the current game that mere, basic marines armed with boltguns can actually kill quickly and effectively.

Yet...not this one. I appreciate that if you know nothing about deploying and moving stuff in an intelligent way, you might well do poorly but thats true of anything and thats a stupid assumption,. Assuming you understand the unit, it will serve you exceptionally well, and can then death blossom on objectives at the end when needed. And it does. It is just a good unit. Try it.

Thanks for the advice, Mr. I-have-a-blog, but just fyi, Imperial Guard is one of my two armies alongside CSM. If you happen to be playing in a mostly casual-friendly and non-competitive meta where guardsmen blobs can actually recover their points and not find themselves completely slaughtered by turn 2, cheers to you. But take into account that the world outside may be a different place to play. And it's not like my meta is extremely competitive by the way, just competitive enough that guardsmen blobs are no guarantee of anything.

Try deploying and moving your 30 or 40-man blob "in an intelligent way" while it's being shot by barrage weapons that do not need LOS to fire at it, shot by moderate amounts of S4-5 AP5 weapons (that are virtually everywhere in the game) or just wait for some nice and friendly marines deep-striking nearby inside a drop pod and saying hello with their flamers. I'm just wondering where you're going to hide that blob of 30, 40 or 50 models so it won't be getting shot at from every side.

Reserves?

Another question, if I may ask, what are star formations? I keep hearing mention of "deathstar" and other such "-----stars". What exactly are they?

"Deathstar" refers to a "super unit" that is supposed to be highly resilient and very dangerous.

It comes from WFB, where you can stack super fighters and super wizards into a huge (semi-)elite unit for massive synergies.

For mere Guardsmen, that's a bit of a stretch, hence the chorus of skeptics demanding he justify his outrageous claim.

Deathstar unit in 40k are typically high-cost unis that stack multiple bonuses together to form a unit that has a disproportionate amount of offensive and defensive power. Utter pain in the ass.

The "IG Deathstar Blob" mentioned above has little to no applicable use on the TT, and can be eliminated on T1 very very easily.

 Jancoran wrote:

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Are imperial guard like orks? They seem to use a lot of models

They can be. 120 models isnt unheard of. I've seen lists with like 40 models also. So it varies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:


This thread is about "other factions", not Tau, so it's not a derail to ask you to justify your statement that IG are a good, fully competitive army on the tabletop.

Merely claiming to have an uber-blob that "demolishes almost everything", and then saying "wrong", "wrong" and redirecting to PM when asked for details makes the claim look more trollish than not.

Given that you made the original claim publicly, the onus is on you to either back it up publicly, or retract it publicly. Not to take it private, and let people imagine that your bold claim just sits without challenge. I will accept silence on your part as an admission that you were just making stuff up.

Im not merely claiming anything. You have the codex? It's not a super complicated concept. Just saying they can build a very good deathstar and there arent too many things that like seeing it. And it WAS wrong. he's misquoting both the list and the rules!

\

Just for a counter example, a unit of 10 scat bikes cost 270 points and puts out 40 S6 shots at 36".
So, let's say you take 2 squads (I know no one would take max squads, but it makes life easier).

So, 80 S6 shots for 540.
That's 53.3 hits, 44 wounds, 22 deaths (which cause instant death to anything in that squad I believe).
So, even with ~100 points less, this unit can be destroyed by scat bikes in 2 turns, way before they reach CC with anything in the eldar army, for less points than the blob costs.
Tau can do this nearly as well as the scat bikes, though the guard might get to shoot. Against the scat bikes they can only fire with their las cannons assuming there is no LoS blocking cover for the bikers to scoot behind.

Let's do a similar thing with marines.
You can take about ~4 drop pods without upgrades, or 3 with and have a decent amount of points left over. We'll do 3.
30 Marines rapid fire (because pods have accurate deep strike) in a triangle pattern
60 shots
40 hits (53 hits if you take the right chapter tactic)
27 wounds (35 with the 53 hits)
13.5 or 17.5 kills.

3 Drop pods can fire the Strength 5 Pie plate. Assuming 4 hits per pie plate, we get 12 hits
So 10 wounds
5 kills.
So 18.5 or 22.5 kills total.

So roughly half the squad dies. You assault one squad, and only one squad because deep striking intelligently in a triangle is a thing, and take
20 shots, 3 hits, 2 wounds, 1 kill.
Let's say the marines do 1 kill total in CC before being wiped.
Let's say you down 1 drop pod with the cannons.

Next round you take 40 shots
27 hits
18 wounds
9 deaths

The drop pods hit only 3 people each (since you are losing guys by the bucketload now)
6 hits
5 wounds
2.5 kills.

So at this point, 30 people have died (with the better CT, this is more like ~35).
The squad is effectively weakened to the point it no longer becomes a good blob. It can assault another marine squad (assuming it can reach them, since it's so slow and triangle is a thing) but it may lose. If it does win, you get wiped next turn by the remaining marines.
So you've killed effectively 340 points of marines, basic marines with almost no upgrades (flamers would have been worse, for example, and a PG might have helped) while they have wiped 600 points of IG.

With 40 marines, this becomes a lot worse, but you are using more points then the IG (The blob basically kills 1 marine squad, maybe, and then is ineffective, but it's much harder to deepstrike 4 pods turn 1).
This isn't even the best possible use of points for the marines. Regular marines aren't great.

Compare that to wraiths, centstar, or WolfCav and you'll see why most of us aren't impressed by your death star. It's not that people don't want to spend points (death stars have been a viable tactic for many armies since 3rd) its that IG in particular don't run a very good death star. People were talking about a similar unit with DA and IG allies, and it wasn't amazing back then. The power of the top tier codexes has only gotten higher since.

I'm BA and I'm not impressed. That's a pretty damn low bar.

The Marine Pod attack is unfair because it requires strategery and taktiks.

I regularly run a small squad or two of AMs with dual Flamers. For less than half 200 points, I shut down that IG "deathstar", because 4 Flamer templates and he's done. AMs are generally considered suck, and yet, they're a decent enough counter to his IG blob. The remaining points buy me an IKT that lobs Battlecannon rounds and mega-Frag into it every turn. For the same 600-ish points, I have vastly superior firepower from the IKT and adequate bubblewrap from the AMs.

Marine pod attack has been around since the beginning of 5th. People should know how to set up against it by now. Especially IG.

My comment was a bit tongue in cheek, as the IKT and AMs require basically zero thought - a n00b can run them, no problem.

For extra awesome, put BA in drop pods so it turns off our chapter tactic.

There's no drop pods that carry vehicles are there?

Martel732 wrote:
Marine pod attack has been around since the beginning of 5th. People should know how to set up against it by now. Especially IG.

While I agree you can stop pods from destroying tanks, and maybe stop flamers, I'm having a hard time seeing how you stop the pods from being able to target a huge blob.

I actually picked marines in pods because its a common and not a great option (especially with no special weapons).
I could have done sternguard with flamer spam and special ammo and done a lot better. The Chapter Tactics also make a big difference in this fight.

I think there's a FW that carries dreadnoughts. I never see it used, so I assume it's pretty overpriced.

Akiasura wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Marine pod attack has been around since the beginning of 5th. People should know how to set up against it by now. Especially IG.

While I agree you can stop pods from destroying tanks, and maybe stop flamers, I'm having a hard time seeing how you stop the pods from being able to target a huge blob.

I actually picked marines in pods because its a common and not a great option (especially with no special weapons).
I could have done sternguard with flamer spam and special ammo and done a lot better. The Chapter Tactics also make a big difference in this fight.

You can't protect the blob. I wasn't trying to say that one could. I meant a regular IG list.

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
There's no drop pods that carry vehicles are there?

Dreadnoughts can ride in drop pods

Oh yeah, I'm thinking like predators or rhinos though

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The Marine Pod attack is unfair because it requires strategery and taktiks.

I regularly run a small squad or two of AMs with dual Flamers. For less than half 200 points, I shut down that IG "deathstar", because 4 Flamer templates and he's done. AMs are generally considered suck, and yet, they're a decent enough counter to his IG blob. The remaining points buy me an IKT that lobs Battlecannon rounds and mega-Frag into it every turn. For the same 600-ish points, I have vastly superior firepower from the IKT and adequate bubblewrap from the AMs.

Two Wyverns are 130 points. Barrage, Shred and AP4. Designed to turn light/medium infantry to shreds no matter where it hides. Two Wyverns alone will mutilate any light infantry blob without even trying. You don't even need the flamer vet squad in a Chimera or a Hellhound to make sure there's nothing left.

Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Oh yeah, I'm thinking like predators or rhinos though

I think BA used to be able to deep strike in certain tanks. I haven't seen a BA army in some time so I'm not sure about the specifics of their dex.