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2015/11/02 23:10:22
Subject: Re:When will other factions get the Tau treatment
Well, since they're just Infantry you can stuff three in one Pod, though it does have to be a FA choice rather than a DT choice.
Don't believe me? It's all in the numbers.
Number 1: That's terror.
Number 2: That's terror.
Dark Angels/Angels of Vengeance combo - ???? - Input wanted!
2015/11/03 02:06:36
Subject: Re:When will other factions get the Tau treatment
What really irks me to no end is that a Gravcent is just 4pts more than a MoN Oblit. You know Chaos Marines are the worst army in the game when our supposedly "cheesiest" unit isn't even a full melta bomb cheaper than a damn god-tier level unit.
I just want a chance to get some cool toys like everyone else has been gifted with. Instead we're stuck trying to compete against Scatbikes & Gravcents with freaking autocannons and plasma guns, and a bunch of special rules we can only get if we pay an arm, a leg and our first born for.
2015/11/03 07:49:28
Subject: Re:When will other factions get the Tau treatment
Korinov wrote: In order to demolish something, a guardsmen blob first needs to survive. And today there are many, many things out there that can pulverize a guardsmen blob very, very quickly.
Hell, a guardsmen blob is probably one of the very few things in the current game that mere, basic marines armed with boltguns can actually kill quickly and effectively.
Yet...not this one. I appreciate that if you know nothing about deploying and moving stuff in an intelligent way, you might well do poorly but thats true of anything and thats a stupid assumption,. Assuming you understand the unit, it will serve you exceptionally well, and can then death blossom on objectives at the end when needed. And it does. It is just a good unit. Try it.
That's not an answer. That's blowing more smoke. How about you actually explain how your IG "deathstar" blob is composed and how it works, given that it's a just a slow, squishy mass of T3 models that get no save against 90+% of the things on the board.
No, its just not rewarding trolls.
But its really straight forward. 40 Guardsman (4 Lascannons, 4 Power Axes), 3 Psykers, 3 Priests.
The unit is primarily melee, but obviously it can shoot like crazy if needed. In Melee it gets 28 Power Weapon attacks, of which 12 can be Force Activated. The 40 IG are 4's to hit, but re-rolling if missed! They are re-rolling to wound as well. The unit is getting 5+ Deny the Witch defense of course but also 4+ if the enemy Psyker happens to be less powerful (such as a Strike Squad might be). Making the unit ever more doughty is that it can give itself the 4+ invulnerable save (on its own very good), which it gets to re-roll in close combat. The unit auto-passes its morale and pinning and the unit is huge.
Lastly at the end game, it can death blossom, meaning that whereas you had one big unit around midboard or wherever it ends up, the individual parts of the unit can explode out to take different objectives if you're going second. Less useful when going first obviously.
So it essentially must be shot to death... While the other 1300 to 1400 points of your army deals damage. And it never really dies. People take too much damage from other things in the list and after a while have to turn their attentions to easier things to kill lest they just get themselves locked up interminably.
tThe unit also Can Overwatch at full Ballistic skill if it gets the Divination power off for that. Ultimately you have six tries and the 4+ invul is the important power. It is also possible to do this with the IG using NON IG, but i think the point of the exercize was to show that IG on its own was able to make a pretty cool deathstar and since it died just once ever, I'm not really inclined to increase it to 50 dudes. But you can, which adds yet more power weapons to the mix...
Dark Eldar Haemonculus Coven got it once. Took a Talos unit and two Grotesque units plus two Wrack units the better part of a game to smash it to pieces but they got it done. Lol. As I will freely admit, there just isn't anything IN 40K that cant be killed. if it has stats, it can be killed.
As for the Lascannons, those can fire as long as they themselves don't move. The unit can start taking up space, firing away with Lasguns and using the orders to make sure the Lascannons are doing damage enough to convince the enemy to come attack us. If enemies don't, we keep shooting and taking up space until we can force the issue, while out other stuff kinda plows the fields.
I do not claim it to be the second coming. It is, however, terribly effective. it also gives the army a lot of defense dice to at least get a shot at stopping an enemy power every round so that's cool and anything that casts ON the unit is as I said quite a bit easier to stop. Shooting is the thing that can work against it but again... thats if you can and will keep firing at it?
I suppose if someone wants to tailor JUST to kill this unit they can get it done. Like every other unit in the galaxy.
JohnHwangDD wrote: The Marine Pod attack is unfair because it requires strategery and taktiks.
I regularly run a small squad or two of AMs with dual Flamers. For less than half 200 points, I shut down that IG "deathstar", because 4 Flamer templates and he's done. AMs are generally considered suck, and yet, they're a decent enough counter to his IG blob. The remaining points buy me an IKT that lobs Battlecannon rounds and mega-Frag into it every turn. For the same 600-ish points, I have vastly superior firepower from the IKT and adequate bubblewrap from the AMs.
Two Wyverns are 130 points. Barrage, Shred and AP4. Designed to turn light/medium infantry to shreds no matter where it hides. Two Wyverns alone will mutilate any light infantry blob without even trying. You don't even need the flamer vet squad in a Chimera or a Hellhound to make sure there's nothing left.
Wyverns are ruthless.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2015/11/03 08:56:32
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
That's not an answer. That's blowing more smoke. How about you actually explain how your IG "deathstar" blob is composed and how it works, given that it's a just a slow, squishy mass of T3 models that get no save against 90+% of the things on the board.
No, its just not rewarding trolls.
But its really straight forward. 40 Guardsman (4 Lascannons, 4 Power Axes), 3 Psykers, 3 Priests.
The unit is primarily melee, but obviously it can shoot like crazy if needed. In Melee it gets 28 Power Weapon attacks, of which 12 can be Force Activated. The 40 IG are 4's to hit, but re-rolling if missed! They are re-rolling to wound as well. The unit is getting 5+ Deny the Witch defense of course but also 4+ if the enemy Psyker happens to be less powerful (such as a Strike Squad might be). Making the unit ever more doughty is that it can give itself the 4+ invulnerable save (on its own very good), which it gets to re-roll in close combat. The unit auto-passes its morale and pinning and the unit is huge.
In melee, yes, the unit is good. No one is denying that this unit isn't good in melee (though it does fail against the better deathstars and melee units in the game, since its slow).
The problem, as everyone has pointed out, is that it's absurdly slow and not very tough. It's about as tough as a Dire Avenger unit when it comes to shooting, and costs 600+ points.
The shooting isn't good. 40 lasguns won't put a lot of wounds down field, and 4 lascannons in that many points is worse than DE anti-tank.
Lastly at the end game, it can death blossom, meaning that whereas you had one big unit around midboard or wherever it ends up, the individual parts of the unit can explode out to take different objectives if you're going second. Less useful when going first obviously.
So it essentially must be shot to death... While the other 1300 to 1400 points of your army deals damage. And it never really dies. People take too much damage from other things in the list and after a while have to turn their attentions to easier things to kill lest they just get themselves locked up interminably.
You'll notice that so far, 2 commonly seen options (scat bikes and basic drop pod marines) were able to drop this thing in 2 turns. Using less points.
For marines there may be more dangerous things to pod in against (wyverns, for example) but scat bikes can destroy this thing pretty much free of charge. It's not uncommon to see 30-40 bikes across the table, plus spiders. 40 bikes could destroy this unit turn 1.
tThe unit also Can Overwatch at full Ballistic skill if it gets the Divination power off for that. Ultimately you have six tries and the 4+ invul is the important power. It is also possible to do this with the IG using NON IG, but i think the point of the exercize was to show that IG on its own was able to make a pretty cool deathstar and since it died just once ever, I'm not really inclined to increase it to 50 dudes. But you can, which adds yet more power weapons to the mix...
I don't know what you're facing locally, but considering 2 squads of bikes and 3 squads of bolter marines in pods dropped it in 2 turns...it seems very weak.
Again, this wasn't even list tailoring. I could have used BA flamer squads, sternguard with combi weapons or special ammo, spiders, a huge unit of wraiths, all of these would have handled this unit. These are commonly seen units that handled this pretty easily, with only suffering ~200 points in damage at worse (the bikes maybe lose 2 bikes).
Dark Eldar Haemonculus Coven got it once. Took a Talos unit and two Grotesque units plus two Wrack units the better part of a game to smash it to pieces but they got it done. Lol. As I will freely admit, there just isn't anything IN 40K that cant be killed. if it has stats, it can be killed.
As for the Lascannons, those can fire as long as they themselves don't move. The unit can start taking up space, firing away with Lasguns and using the orders to make sure the Lascannons are doing damage enough to convince the enemy to come attack us. If enemies don't, we keep shooting and taking up space until we can force the issue, while out other stuff kinda plows the fields.
Again, can be removed in 2 turns and is very very slow. Who is 4 lascannons threatening? It's not a lot of fire power, you'll be dropping a rhino or razorback a turn.
I do not claim it to be the second coming. It is, however, terribly effective. it also gives the army a lot of defense dice to at least get a shot at stopping an enemy power every round so that's cool and anything that casts ON the unit is as I said quite a bit easier to stop. Shooting is the thing that can work against it but again... thats if you can and will keep firing at it?
Which I just proved is absurdly easy for most armies to do, and this unit really can't stop them from doing so.
I suppose if someone wants to tailor JUST to kill this unit they can get it done. Like every other unit in the galaxy.
I would hardly call 2 units of bikes or 3 drop pod marines list tailoring.
If your meta isn't competitive I guess I can see how you think 2 units of bikes is list tailoring (?) but 3 units of marines in pods??
JohnHwangDD wrote: The Marine Pod attack is unfair because it requires strategery and taktiks.
I regularly run a small squad or two of AMs with dual Flamers. For less than half 200 points, I shut down that IG "deathstar", because 4 Flamer templates and he's done. AMs are generally considered suck, and yet, they're a decent enough counter to his IG blob. The remaining points buy me an IKT that lobs Battlecannon rounds and mega-Frag into it every turn. For the same 600-ish points, I have vastly superior firepower from the IKT and adequate bubblewrap from the AMs.
Two Wyverns are 130 points. Barrage, Shred and AP4. Designed to turn light/medium infantry to shreds no matter where it hides. Two Wyverns alone will mutilate any light infantry blob without even trying. You don't even need the flamer vet squad in a Chimera or a Hellhound to make sure there's nothing left.
Wyverns are ruthless.
And are commonly seen in IG armies. 1/2 the points of your blob in wyverns will defeat your blob and be much more useful.
Honestly, this death star isn't very good. It dies to shooting from commonly seen units in the majority of mid tier dexes. If this is the best IG can do, everyone was right to call them bad.
2015/11/03 13:14:07
Subject: When will other factions get the Tau treatment
Referring to the OP here-since Tau are powerful now, is that good or bad?
INSANE army lists still available!!!! Now being written in 8th edition format! I have Index Imperium 1, Index Imperium 2, Index Xenos 2, Codex Orks Codex Tyranids, Codex Blood Angels and Codex Space Marines!
PM me for an INSANE (100K+ points) if you desire.
2015/11/03 14:21:11
Subject: When will other factions get the Tau treatment
Jancoran wrote: But its really straight forward. 40 Guardsman (4 Lascannons, 4 Power Axes), 3 Psykers, 3 Priests.
Honestly, this death star isn't very good. It dies to shooting from commonly seen units in the majority of mid tier dexes. If this is the best IG can do, everyone was right to call them bad.
[SNIP!]
I was going to go through Jancoran's points but I think Akiasura basically covered everything I would have said. Except i would have had more snark and more emphasis on the super units I love (i.e. IKTs).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/03 18:17:19
KaptinBadrukk wrote: Referring to the OP here-since Tau are powerful now, is that good or bad?
It is good in the sense that Tau are par with Decurion-class Codices.
If all the weaker codexes got to be at Tau power levels, 40k would be a lot better. With only minor house rules the game would suddenly become playable.
I doubt this will happen.
2015/11/03 18:25:06
Subject: Re:When will other factions get the Tau treatment
In melee, yes, the unit is good. No one is denying that this unit isn't good in melee (though it does fail against the better deathstars and melee units in the game, since its slow).
The problem, as everyone has pointed out, is that it's absurdly slow and not very tough. It's about as tough as a Dire Avenger unit when it comes to shooting, and costs 600+ points.
The shooting isn't good. 40 lasguns won't put a lot of wounds down field, and 4 lascannons in that many points is worse than DE anti-tank.
You'll notice that so far, 2 commonly seen options (scat bikes and basic drop pod marines) were able to drop this thing in 2 turns. Using less points.
For marines there may be more dangerous things to pod in against (wyverns, for example) but scat bikes can destroy this thing pretty much free of charge. It's not uncommon to see 30-40 bikes across the table, plus spiders. 40 bikes could destroy this unit turn 1.
I don't know what you're facing locally, but considering 2 squads of bikes and 3 squads of bolter marines in pods dropped it in 2 turns...it seems very weak.
Again, this wasn't even list tailoring. I could have used BA flamer squads, sternguard with combi weapons or special ammo, spiders, a huge unit of wraiths, all of these would have handled this unit. These are commonly seen units that handled this pretty easily, with only suffering ~200 points in damage at worse (the bikes maybe lose 2 bikes).
Again, can be removed in 2 turns and is very very slow. Who is 4 lascannons threatening? It's not a lot of fire power, you'll be dropping a rhino or razorback a turn.
I do not claim it to be the second coming. It is, however, terribly effective. it also gives the army a lot of defense dice to at least get a shot at stopping an enemy power every round so that's cool and anything that casts ON the unit is as I said quite a bit easier to stop. Shooting is the thing that can work against it but again... thats if you can and will keep firing at it?
Which I just proved is absurdly easy for most armies to do, and this unit really can't stop them from doing so.
I suppose if someone wants to tailor JUST to kill this unit they can get it done. Like every other unit in the galaxy.
I would hardly call 2 units of bikes or 3 drop pod marines list tailoring.
If your meta isn't competitive I guess I can see how you think 2 units of bikes is list tailoring (?) but 3 units of marines in pods??
JohnHwangDD wrote: The Marine Pod attack is unfair because it requires strategery and taktiks.
I regularly run a small squad or two of AMs with dual Flamers. For less than half 200 points, I shut down that IG "deathstar", because 4 Flamer templates and he's done. AMs are generally considered suck, and yet, they're a decent enough counter to his IG blob. The remaining points buy me an IKT that lobs Battlecannon rounds and mega-Frag into it every turn. For the same 600-ish points, I have vastly superior firepower from the IKT and adequate bubblewrap from the AMs.
Two Wyverns are 130 points. Barrage, Shred and AP4. Designed to turn light/medium infantry to shreds no matter where it hides. Two Wyverns alone will mutilate any light infantry blob without even trying. You don't even need the flamer vet squad in a Chimera or a Hellhound to make sure there's nothing left.
Wyverns are ruthless.
And are commonly seen in IG armies. 1/2 the points of your blob in wyverns will defeat your blob and be much more useful.
Honestly, this death star isn't very good. It dies to shooting from commonly seen units in the majority of mid tier dexes. If this is the best IG can do, everyone was right to call them bad.
Actually the unit doesnt fail against most deathstars. It never dies basically so I'm not sure what your definition of failure actually is. But it took an avalanche to kill it the only time it was killed so I dont understand this comment you made. "Fail" is so overused and vague (and in this case inaccurate) that I think you need to explain "fail". In fact I kinda like it when those Deathstrs get to me, on the whole. Means they will be going nowhere and doing nothing the rest of the game. and I'll probably kill them!
Your arguments have boiled down to this:
1. Slow
2. Lascannons dont do "enough"
3. Other Deathstars can beat it up (somehow?).
4. Some super tailored list could maaaaaaybe ignore the other 1400 points of the army and try to focus it down despite 4+ invul saves?
Yet... None of those things matter. It can be slow because there are 5-6 turns. Where is it going that it needs to hurry any faster? If the enemy is going to try to match it in melee, they will probably fail. its that simple. By probably I mean demonstrably over time it has shown them to fail. If they want to shoot at us, okay fine too. We also shoot, with high accuracy (Presceince) if that's the game that is being played. That and...the rest of the force. So stand back and shoot me but don't expect a lot of quivering in fear if that's your strategy. IG forces can have a good old fashioned shoot out as good as anyone and if your melee is no threat at all, then we only have to weather one phase.
Lascannons are a staple if IG life and a necessary thing to knock units out on overwatch (with Foreboding) and to kill the blasty threats to us. But becaue we SPREAD OUT, templates and blasts aren't the problem you're making them to be. They'll do damage though. Yessir, of course they will. Kill the unit? No. demonstrably they won't usually kill the IG unit. 4+ invul is hard core with that many bodies on the field. if I don't get that power, then it may have to be used in a more traditional way. I might even split the units up. I have options. Depends entirely o nthe opponent. And it would be funny to see the 20 scatterbikes decide that shooting all 20 at my 10 man squad was a good idea. hehehe.
Again I am sure you can tailor to it and bring some improbable 3x20 bike army. But then... if thats the conversation you want to have, whats the point? Are you going to argue next that Imperial Knights are invalid because: 3 units of Wraithguard? Lol. That kind of silly argument is a waste. Oh you mean you're meta isn't tough and no one does that? See how dumb that sounds?
As for Lascannons downfield: who cares? those Lascannons are great against an army that has armor. It just keeps demolishing tanks a round at a time until melee happens and if they never engage me and i never engage them (both unlikely), well, I'll keep killing tanks. There's no downside. and if I get Foreboding, then almost no one sane charges that thing. A WraithKnight might try but then its not going anywhere for a real long time. Worth it to try? Maybe? So maybe we shoot that Wraith Knight first...with LASCANNONS!
And you're wrong. Two "commonly used" armies Haven't managed to kill it. I face those armies (in several forms). None have but one. No one takes 40 Scatterbikes but if you want to CALL that common and NOT list tailored..uh... sure. Good luck when all your army can do is kill the assault vehicles that are going to disgorge your doom for the next round, because Im not the only army you'll be facing in a tournament and i can play the "perfect storm scenario" game with you too.
I DO play a guy with 11 drop pods. Travis got into me with 35 flamer hits. 35!!! I had deployed spread out but missed a hole just small enough to fit hid drop pod in. Clumped too much. Anyways, net result: tabled him minus five drop pods. The unit survived to the end. 4+ for the win.
I play a couple of guys guy who love their scatterbikes and Wraith Knight combo. Never lost the unit. The Lascannons killed the Wraithknight with help from other units in turn two in our most recent battle. TL Lascannons that ignore cover are pretty cool when they fire unabated for two rounds, plus full BS overwatch when he tried to get in on me and tie me up finished it. And then theres that other 1300-1400 points we talked about...
Now I cannot tell you all the different things I will see in a given tournament. Neither can you so lets not waste each others time on that. Using nonsense "perfect storm" scenarios to illustrate why a unit that has in actual games died once "isn't good" is just... not the remotest bit fair minded.
How it works is really basic: it doesnt die, it throws out some weak but accurate pewpew as it advances (and they do damage over time), wrecks a couple vehicles if that's a better target and then locks up stuff and butchers it with a mass of Power weapons buried in ablative wounds. at the end if going second your guys can leave the unit and go take objectives if needed. The end.
And it CAN die. For the record. We finally proved that much. So I am sure when the dude shows up with 60 Scatter bikes or whatever, I'll have to adjust or die. Can't win 'em all. Have you, using your knowledge and "better meta" (weak argument) won them all? I think not.
if you ever even play Guard, try it. Build a good list around it obviously that will support its mission and mesh with your style of play. You'll collect many tears from many sad faces. And then at some point a Dark Eldar player will come along and gitcha. Can't win 'em all. You'll win a lot. Even without the "Tau Treatment".
Oh one last tidbit: Strategic Warlord Traits are awesome. if you get to infiltrate this unit, it can really be fun. I've done that before and that's a lot of fun.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/03 18:28:04
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Okay, I scrolled back and took a look at your so called 'power build'
4 Guard sections blobbed together with three psykers and three commissars right?
Wrong. But you can hit me up on PM if you wanna talk about it.
No thankyou Jancoran, if you are truly such a master of the Guard and have such brilliant game winning strategies you will not mind posting them here where myself and the others can all see them.
As for your power build I was wrong, it has 3 priests. That just makes it even squishier as the priests can do sweet feth all against my two tanks.
1st turn:As you moved the blob your Lascannons can not fire even if you left them still. .
Also wrong
Ah, maybe I was wrong. Im not quite sure how the rules work in regarding mixed units - is it the heavy weapon itself that has to move or not or is it the entire unit? Either way though, you are playing to a disadvantage as if you are leaving the Lascannons in the backbench you will have to congaline your blob from them. All it takes is one blast... If you want some AT then you would be better off dropping those 4 Lascannons for 4 Meltas which are chaper and can be fired on the move.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
DR:90-S++G+++M++B++I+Pww205++D++A+++/sWD146R++T(T)D+
2015/11/03 19:12:34
Subject: Re:When will other factions get the Tau treatment
In melee, yes, the unit is good. No one is denying that this unit isn't good in melee (though it does fail against the better deathstars and melee units in the game, since its slow).
The problem, as everyone has pointed out, is that it's absurdly slow and not very tough. It's about as tough as a Dire Avenger unit when it comes to shooting, and costs 600+ points.
The shooting isn't good. 40 lasguns won't put a lot of wounds down field, and 4 lascannons in that many points is worse than DE anti-tank.
You'll notice that so far, 2 commonly seen options (scat bikes and basic drop pod marines) were able to drop this thing in 2 turns. Using less points.
For marines there may be more dangerous things to pod in against (wyverns, for example) but scat bikes can destroy this thing pretty much free of charge. It's not uncommon to see 30-40 bikes across the table, plus spiders. 40 bikes could destroy this unit turn 1.
I don't know what you're facing locally, but considering 2 squads of bikes and 3 squads of bolter marines in pods dropped it in 2 turns...it seems very weak.
Again, this wasn't even list tailoring. I could have used BA flamer squads, sternguard with combi weapons or special ammo, spiders, a huge unit of wraiths, all of these would have handled this unit. These are commonly seen units that handled this pretty easily, with only suffering ~200 points in damage at worse (the bikes maybe lose 2 bikes).
Again, can be removed in 2 turns and is very very slow. Who is 4 lascannons threatening? It's not a lot of fire power, you'll be dropping a rhino or razorback a turn.
I do not claim it to be the second coming. It is, however, terribly effective. it also gives the army a lot of defense dice to at least get a shot at stopping an enemy power every round so that's cool and anything that casts ON the unit is as I said quite a bit easier to stop. Shooting is the thing that can work against it but again... thats if you can and will keep firing at it?
Which I just proved is absurdly easy for most armies to do, and this unit really can't stop them from doing so.
I suppose if someone wants to tailor JUST to kill this unit they can get it done. Like every other unit in the galaxy.
I would hardly call 2 units of bikes or 3 drop pod marines list tailoring.
If your meta isn't competitive I guess I can see how you think 2 units of bikes is list tailoring (?) but 3 units of marines in pods??
JohnHwangDD wrote: The Marine Pod attack is unfair because it requires strategery and taktiks.
I regularly run a small squad or two of AMs with dual Flamers. For less than half 200 points, I shut down that IG "deathstar", because 4 Flamer templates and he's done. AMs are generally considered suck, and yet, they're a decent enough counter to his IG blob. The remaining points buy me an IKT that lobs Battlecannon rounds and mega-Frag into it every turn. For the same 600-ish points, I have vastly superior firepower from the IKT and adequate bubblewrap from the AMs.
Two Wyverns are 130 points. Barrage, Shred and AP4. Designed to turn light/medium infantry to shreds no matter where it hides. Two Wyverns alone will mutilate any light infantry blob without even trying. You don't even need the flamer vet squad in a Chimera or a Hellhound to make sure there's nothing left.
Wyverns are ruthless.
And are commonly seen in IG armies. 1/2 the points of your blob in wyverns will defeat your blob and be much more useful.
Honestly, this death star isn't very good. It dies to shooting from commonly seen units in the majority of mid tier dexes. If this is the best IG can do, everyone was right to call them bad.
Actually the unit doesnt fail against most deathstars. It never dies basically so I'm not sure what your definition of failure actually is. But it took an avalanche to kill it the only time it was killed so I dont understand this comment you made. "Fail" is so overused and vague (and in this case inaccurate) that I think you need to explain "fail". In fact I kinda like it when those Deathstrs get to me, on the whole. Means they will be going nowhere and doing nothing the rest of the game. and I'll probably kill them!
Fair enough, I can define fail as far as death stars go.
1) Can the unit get to where it needs to be (in this case, melee)?
No, this unit can not. It is a fail here.
2) Can this unit be delivered to its effective range (again, melee) safely?
No, this unit can not. As demonstrated, it loses to 20 bikes or 30 marines.
3) Is this unit effective against threats it is likely to meet in its effective range (melee)?
Yes, it can defeat the majority of units it reaches in melee.
4) Can this unit defeat other top tier choices in its effective range?
No, wraith stars and cent stars will shut it down.
So, it can do 1/4, which is a 25%.
In my classes, a 25% is a failing grade.
1. Slow
2. Lascannons dont do "enough"
3. Other Deathstars can beat it up (somehow?).
4. Some super tailored list could maaaaaaybe ignore the other 1400 points of the army and try to focus it down despite 4+ invul saves?
Yet... None of those things matter. It can be slow because there are 5-6 turns. Where is it going that it needs to hurry any faster?
Hopefully to melee, since it takes only 2 turns to destroy it with shooting. In that time, it will contribute 8 lascannon shots to the battle.
If the enemy is going to try to match it in melee, they will probably fail. its that simple. By probably I mean demonstrably over time it has shown them to fail.
Not really. Put them up against 15 wraiths with a good formation (T5, Init 5, 3++, 4+ FnP, 2W, HoW attacks) and see how you do. That's not even a death star, its a commonly seen selection in most necron lists.
Heck, put them up against similar points in flayed ones. They still lose.
In an extremely casual meta, sure they do okay in melee. Compared to other deathstars who re-roll 2++ saves and are sporting T5 and a bucket ton of quality attacks, this falls down.
You have yet to demonstrate anything.
If they want to shoot at us, okay fine too. We also shoot, with high accuracy (Presceince) if that's the game that is being played. That and...the rest of the force. So stand back and shoot me but don't expect a lot of quivering in fear if that's your strategy. IG forces can have a good old fashioned shoot out as good as anyone and if your melee is no threat at all, then we only have to weather one phase.
Again, not really. You'll notice in my examples I actually used LESS points than you did to destroy the squads (about 20% less in each case) and took commonly seen units. In each case, it took 2 turns, way less time than it takes you to reach melee (except against the drop pods, where you did manage to destroy 1-2 squads before dying and only earning half your points back).
Eldar still have the vast majority of their forces on the table. I could take 2 wraithknights or something similar. The SM could easily fit a centstar with their remaining points, posing a credible melee threat. Both of those are a lot scarier than anything the IG bring to the table.
If you are shooting your rapid fire weapons, you aren't charging (the only phase you are good in, I figured you would not want to shoot. We can do it without charging if you want).
Lascannons are a staple if IG life and a necessary thing to knock units out on overwatch (with Foreboding) and to kill the blasty threats to us. But becaue we SPREAD OUT, templates and blasts aren't the problem you're making them to be. They'll do damage though. Yessir, of course they will. Kill the unit? No. demonstrably they won't usually kill the IG unit. 4+ invul is hard core with that many bodies on the field. if I don't get that power, then it may have to be used in a more traditional way. I might even split the units up. I have options. Depends entirely o nthe opponent. And it would be funny to see the 20 scatterbikes decide that shooting all 20 at my 10 man squad was a good idea. hehehe.
You'll notice, again, I did use the invul save in my calculations.
You'll notice that I only used blast weapons with the marines (which did a total of...6-7 wounds?).
You realize eldar typically take min squads, yes? It'll be more like 4 bikes firing into your 10 man squad over the course of two turns to eliminate it. I used 20 guys at once for ease of math, but that is not what is typically seen. It's a troops choice after all, no reason not to spam it.
It's crazy, but the opponent can make half way intelligent decisions too.
Again I am sure you can tailor to it and bring some improbable 3x20 bike army. But then... if thats the conversation you want to have, whats the point? Are you going to argue next that Imperial Knights are invalid because: 3 units of Wraithguard? Lol. That kind of silly argument is a waste. Oh you mean you're meta isn't tough and no one does that? See how dumb that sounds?
You'll notice I used 20 bikes and 3 drop pod marines. No one is using 60 bikes, I don't know why you felt the need to bring it up again and again. I used drop pod marines too.
If your meta doesn't include 20 bikes (easily the best choice in the dex, and not even spamming) or 3 drop pod marines (pretty common since...5th?) than I don't know what to tell you.
I didn't tailor. I took common units from good dexes (20 bikes, 30 marines, 15 wraiths) and placed them against you. And won.
As for Lascannons downfield: who cares? those Lascannons are great against an army that has armor. It just keeps demolishing tanks a round at a time until melee happens and if they never engage me and i never engage them (both unlikely), well, I'll keep killing tanks. There's no downside. and if I get Foreboding, then almost no one sane charges that thing. A WraithKnight might try but then its not going anywhere for a real long time. Worth it to try? Maybe? So maybe we shoot that Wraith Knight first...with LASCANNONS!
4 lascannons in 600 points of troops is awful. Even with prescience, you're looking at 3 hits a turn. You won't kill a single Wave serpent a turn, let alone decimate armor. Even a Rhino in cover might survive that.
It'll take you nearly the whole game to kill a wraithknight, assuming he leaves you alone. The blob costs more and has about 2 turns to do its damage before the blob just ups and dies against an eldar army.
And you're wrong. Two "commonly used" armies Haven't managed to kill it. I face those armies (in several forms). None have but one. No one takes 40 Scatterbikes but if you want to CALL that common and NOT list tailored..uh... sure. Good luck when all your army can do is kill the assault vehicles that are going to disgorge your doom for the next round, because Im not the only army you'll be facing in a tournament and i can play the "perfect storm scenario" game with you too.
Again, it was 20 scat bikes. 20 scat bikes are common in competitive metas (tbh that seems a little low to me).
3 Drop pods isn't list tailoring either.
As for no one taking 40 bikes, I suggest you look at the ETC and Nova (those are competitive, btw). You'll see nearly every list includes 40 scat bikes and spiders.
But again, I used half of that and had no problem destroying this unit. For less points than it costs.
I DO play a guy with 11 drop pods. Travis got into me with 35 flamer hits. 35!!! I had deployed spread out but missed a hole just small enough to fit hid drop pod in. Clumped too much. Anyways, net result: tabled him minus five drop pods. The unit survived to the end. 4+ for the win.
11 drop pods is a terrible list imo. You usually see a few for tank hunting or alpha striking, and a strong deathstar central unit (which can change depending on marine flavor.
Again, you are probably playing in a casual meta if this unit is working.
I play a couple of guys guy who love their scatterbikes and Wraith Knight combo. Never lost the unit. The Lascannons killed the Wraithknight with help from other units in turn two in our most recent battle. TL Lascannons that ignore cover are pretty cool when they fire unabated for two rounds, plus full BS overwatch when he tried to get in on me and tie me up finished it. And then theres that other 1300-1400 points we talked about...
You'll have to excuse me if I don't believe 8 lascannon shots can destroy a knight on average. Because they can't.
With prescience, you're looking at 6 hits. You need a 3+ to wound, so already down to 4 wounds. Then a 5++ invul, so about 3 wounds.
So yeah. About 4 turns to destroy one knight, which costs half of your blob, and is incredibly fast. When your blob can be destroyed by two turns of shooting with a decent amount of scat bikes.
If he meleed that squad with a Wraithknight, knowing you had those powers, than he isn't very good. Again, casual meta is casual.
Now I cannot tell you all the different things I will see in a given tournament. Neither can you so lets not [/i]waste each others time on that. Using nonsense "perfect storm" scenarios to illustrate why a unit that has in actual games died once "isn't good" is just... not the remotest bit fair minded.
How it works is really basic: it doesnt die, it throws out some weak but accurate pewpew as it advances (and they do damage over time), wrecks a couple vehicles if that's a better target and then locks up stuff and butchers it with a mass of Power weapons buried in ablative wounds. at the end if going second your guys can leave the unit and go take objectives if needed. The end.
Well, all the math I posted kinda proves everything you said wrong. And I used common units.
But if it works for you enjoy. I wouldn't brag about it when it seems pretty terrible.
And it CAN die. For the record. We finally proved that much. So I am sure when the dude shows up with 60 Scatter bikes or whatever, I'll have to adjust or die. Can't win 'em all. Have you, using your knowledge and "better meta" (weak argument) won them all? I think not.
Nope.
And again, it's 20 bikes. I'd only need 40 to destroy it in 1 turn, but I used 20.
if you ever even play Guard, try it. Build a good list around it obviously that will support its mission and mesh with your style of play. You'll collect many tears from many sad faces. And then at some point a Dark Eldar player will come along and gitcha. Can't win 'em all. You'll win a lot. Even without the "Tau Treatment".
I don't really enjoy guard, and people don't play them much locally anymore since the dex is so bad.
I can always ask a friend to run it against my Eldar Aspect warrior shrine list, but that seems cruel considering how many models he'll have to unpack and put away. BS 5 avengers and Spiders are just brutal, especially with a decent amount of LoS blocking terrain.
Oh one last tidbit: Strategic Warlord Traits are awesome. if you get to infiltrate this unit, it can really be fun. I've done that before and that's a lot of fun.
That seems good, but you still need 2 turns for melee. If you go first and if you get that...then the unit could destroy something in melee.
If that something is worth 600 points than yeah, the unit would be worth it.
2015/11/03 19:28:29
Subject: When will other factions get the Tau treatment
Your unit seems interesting but I have several questions. Why does it have lascannons? You state that this unit's primary purpose is to get into assault (where it could be effective with shear number of attacks), but then give it an expensive heavy weapon. Even if you just move the blob, the weapon's accuracy has dropped to negligible levels and if you try to run (to reach the enemy to get into combat), then you cannot fire it at all. Would it not be better to save your shooty stuff for the shooty units and let your fighty units fight?
Second, the blob still suffers from not having anything stronger that S: 3 in close combat. This means that they will be at a disadvantage against most common units. Going against this with basic units like bikerboyz or SM on bikes (T: 5) would mean that you can only wound us on 6s before having to get through an armour save.
Third, your blob is too big. Having played blob orks, playing a mob this big means that you have to accept that there is no way to put this thing in cover if you want to advance across the board. Any choke points caused by things like buildings set any close to each other will result in you forces either spaghettiing as they try to avoid bunching up (making it harder to get the ones in the back into close combat where you want them) or will result in your troops being forced to move close together and becoming vulnerable to blast weapons.
Your mob is too slow to be an effective close combat squad. Close combat currently suffers because you have to be able to reach your opponent to make it happen. Any turn spent walking and running towards the enemy is a turn where your opponent is shooting you and you do not get to make any points back. A lot of the close combat builds get around this limitation by being fast (bikerbuilds), being durable (flyrants), or by having the numbers to ignore losses (by numbers I mean stuff like the ork mob that has 100 models minimum). Your mob would spend too many turns walking (especially if they waste time with those lascannons) that they won't have enough time in close combat to earn their points back. Their speed also limits their use as last turn objective grabbers because you have to be close to all the objectives that you grab, unlike a biker star that can explode and grab objectives all across the board.
Finally, you mob is still consisted of basic guardsmen with T:3 and weak armour. They will die in handfuls to enemy fire and to your opponent's close combat attacks. Even tau will be able to remove guardsmen in close combat. Basic guns like the boltgun and shoota wound on a 3+ and the spammable high rate of fire dakkagun can remove guard on a 2+, quickly reducing this unit below a use able capacity. Once this squad has been reduced to 20 or so guradsmen then it no longer poses much of a threat in close combat because they lost their insane number of attacks and can be safely ignored.
While the unit may work for you, it is hardly optimal and suffers from some questionable choices. I think you need to consider the age old adage "boys before toys" when considering the addition of the lascannons and all those special characters, dropping the squads point price by a lot would go a ways towards making it a distraction unit that can camp an objective (though still suboptimal compared to camping some of the stuff in other codices).
Still waiting for Godot.
2015/11/03 19:49:44
Subject: Re:When will other factions get the Tau treatment
Actually the unit doesnt fail against most deathstars. It never dies basically so I'm not sure what your definition of failure actually is. But it took an avalanche to kill it the only time it was killed so I dont understand this comment you made. "Fail" is so overused and vague (and in this case inaccurate) that I think you need to explain "fail". In fact I kinda like it when those Deathstrs get to me, on the whole. Means they will be going nowhere and doing nothing the rest of the game. and I'll probably kill them!
And yet everyone here has thus far proven that this so called 'Deathstar' can be killed, very easily and for a lot less points than it costs.
Your arguments have boiled down to this:
1. Slow
Painfully slow in fact - the lack of a transport option means that you are reduced to footslogging across the board with what are essentially Light Infantry
2. Lascannons dont do "enough"
For what they cost in a Guard army Lascannons do not do near enough.
3. Other Deathstars can beat it up (somehow?).
Because they can quite easily. Hell, my 2 Eradicators are no where near Deathstar level and yet they munch this unit. Factor in Wraithbrigade and Scatbike spam (two very common lists) and everything else and this unit of yours falls to pieces easily.
4. Some super tailored list could maaaaaaybe ignore the other 1400 points of the army and try to focus it down despite 4+ invul saves?
My 2 Eradicators are a footnote on my list and yet they eat this thing for lunch. Tailoring is not required, my regular lists laugh at this invunrablob... And these are fluffy lists.
Yet... None of those things matter. It can be slow because there are 5-6 turns. Where is it going that it needs to hurry any faster?
Because in those 5-6 turns it will not be there. In fact it will probably cease to exist, if not entirely, as a viable threat somewhere around turn 2. You seem to forget that people will shoot the hell out of it.
If the enemy is going to try to match it in melee, they will probably fail. its that simple.
How have you gotten in to melee? It is now turn three and I am delegating a couple of tanks and possibly an Infantry section or two to mop up the remnants of your unit. With shooting.
By probably I mean demonstrably over time it has shown them to fail.
I wish I was facing your opponents. I could do with easy mode for a while.
If they want to shoot at us, okay fine too. We also shoot, with high accuracy (Presceince) if that's the game that is being played.
Okay, feel free too. Three Lascannons and a few lasgun shots are not exactly scary, even when psybuffed.
That and...the rest of the force. So stand back and shoot me but don't expect a lot of quivering in fear if that's your strategy. IG forces can have a good old fashioned shoot out as good as anyone and if your melee is no threat at all, then we only have to weather one phase.
The rest of your force... you mean minus the 670+ point sink? IG shooting is, and I say this as a veteran IG player, currently close to its lowest. One shooting phase? How the hell are you magically teleporting across the battle field. It will take you three turns at last to reach me.
Lascannons are a staple if IG life and a necessary thing to knock units out on overwatch (with Foreboding) and to kill the blasty threats to us.
Nope. Lascannons are bad for IG and I would rather take HB's over them any day.
But becaue we SPREAD OUT, templates and blasts aren't the problem you're making them to be.
Its what, a maximum of 1 inch between models? Good luck.
[quote demonstrably they won't usually kill the IG unit. 4+ invul is hard core with that many bodies on the field.
Okay, a 4+ invun is nice. Better pray for the dice though. Also they will kill enough of your unit to render it no longer a threat.
if I don't get that power, then it may have to be used in a more traditional way. I might even split the units up. I have options. Depends entirely o nthe opponent. And it would be funny to see the 20 scatterbikes decide that shooting all 20 at my 10 man squad was a good idea. hehehe.
Finally a good suggestion. Just remember that you have to decide at deployment whether to blob or not though. Also, that it 10 scatbikes shooting your 10 guys and another 10 shooting elsewhere. Scatbike units are a maximum of 10 in number.
Again I am sure you can tailor to it and bring some improbable 3x20 bike army.
No tailoring needed, as demonstrated above. Also 60 scatbikes is an average Eldar army.
But then... if thats the conversation you want to have, whats the point? Are you going to argue next that Imperial Knights are invalid because: 3 units of Wraithguard? Lol. That kind of silly argument is a waste. Oh you mean you're meta isn't tough and no one does that? See how dumb that sounds?
Congratulations, you just described the average 40K meta
As for Lascannons downfield: who cares?
Everyone here whom is seeing this and going WTF. Lascannons downfield are A) moving and thus only snapshooting and B) stupidly close to enemy shooting and melee in an area they can not hope to compete in.
those Lascannons are great against an army that has armor.
Middling at best. Meltas are far better.
It just keeps demolishing tanks a round at a time until melee happens and if they never engage me and i never engage them (both unlikely), well, I'll keep killing tanks.
How? Your moving and thus only snapshooting. That and your average tank has 3 HP. That is three shots that need to hit AND damage.
There's no downside. and if I get Foreboding, then almost no one sane charges that thing. A WraithKnight might try but then its not going anywhere for a real long time. Worth it to try? Maybe? So maybe we shoot that Wraith Knight first...with LASCANNONS!
Why charge you? I can just delegate another two tanks to blast you as well, or maybe a Punisher to drown you in shots.
And you're wrong.
Or your local meta is incredibly weak
Two "commonly used" armies Haven't managed to kill it. I face those armies (in several forms).
As I said above, your local meta is soft.
No one takes 40 Scatterbikes but if you want to CALL that common and NOT list tailored..uh... sure.
actually I DO call 40 scatterbikes a common list because it is.
Good luck when all your army can do is kill the assault vehicles that are going to disgorge your doom for the next round, because Im not the only army you'll be facing in a tournament and i can play the "perfect storm scenario" game with you too.
Waitwhat? 1) The Imperial Guard do not have assault vehicles 2) There is no non forgeworld transport in the game which can transport that many models
I DO play a guy with 11 drop pods. Travis got into me with 35 flamer hits. 35!!! I had deployed spread out but missed a hole just small enough to fit hid drop pod in. Clumped too much. Anyways, net result: tabled him minus five drop pods. The unit survived to the end. 4+ for the win.
I call that very bad playing with the flamers.
I play a couple of guys guy who love their scatterbikes and Wraith Knight combo.
Clearly you do not.
Never lost the unit. The Lascannons killed the Wraithknight with help from other units in turn two in our most recent battle. TL Lascannons that ignore cover are pretty cool when they fire unabated for two rounds, plus full BS overwatch when he tried to get in on me and tie me up finished it. And then theres that other 1300-1400 points we talked about...
At this point I am calling your opponents competency in to question...
Now I cannot tell you all the different things I will see in a given tournament. Neither can you so lets not waste each others time on that. Using nonsense "perfect storm" scenarios to illustrate why a unit that has in actual games died once "isn't good" is just... not the remotest bit fair minded.
I do not need a perfect storm. I need two Eradicators and a line of sight.
How it works is really basic: it doesnt die
Yes it does
it throws out some weak but accurate pewpew as it advances (and they do damage over time)
This it does indeed
wrecks a couple vehicles if that's a better target
How? needing a 6+ to hit and then a whatever to damage, even if TL'd and then accounting for cover...
and then locks up stuff and butchers it with a mass of Power weapons buried in ablative wounds. at the end if going second
Just wondering how these masses of PW and ablative wounds actually made it through 3 - 4+ rounds of shooting to get into CC?
your guys can leave the unit and go take objectives if needed. The end.
I assume you mean the characters as regular infantry blobs can not split back into individual units during the game.
And it CAN die.
FINALLY, he admits it!
For the record. We finally proved that much.
We proved it many, many, pages back.
So I am sure when the dude shows up with 60 Scatter bikes or whatever, I'll have to adjust or die.
Or his two/three Eradicators plus supporting units. Or his wraithbrigade. Or his Riptide's. Or his...
Can't win 'em all. Have you, using your knowledge and "better meta" (weak argument) won them all? I think not.
Better Meta. Yours is better by far, it is far easier and more laid back.
if you ever even play Guard, try it.
Been playing since 3rd edition dropped.
Build a good list around it obviously that will support its mission and mesh with your style of play.
Yep, you build a fun army
You'll collect many tears from many sad faces
But in return you will lose a LOT of games.
And then at some point a Dark Eldar player will come along and gitcha
Or an Ork player, or a Tau player, or a Space Smurf player or a [insert 40K faction here]
Can't win 'em all.
But you can win some
You'll win a lot. Even without the "Tau Treatment".
I find this hard to believe. Not when every other army out there has access to better units, better priced units, better vehicles per point, better shiny toys, formations and freebies, can ignore most of our strengths and at the same time exploit our weaknesses, etc.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/03 19:51:19
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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2015/11/03 20:43:03
Subject: When will other factions get the Tau treatment
Man alive, you need to be really fast in replying here. Also, agreed that the IG blob isn't that awesome, due to it being so slow and such a large target.
Also, the 1/6 chance of it Infiltrating means that it loses X rounds of shooting it's 4 Lascannons while it is in Reserves, meaning that the remaining 900+ points is at significant disadvantage fighting the opponents full 1500+ points.
That said, if the meta and skill are both grossly sub-par, maybe crap units like the IG blob can appear to be "good".
I think Force Weapons, 4+ invul and rerollable wounds/saves might do really well against Wraiths, actually.
@Jancoran, obviously nothing is as compelling as results on the tabletop but have you tried running this concept with a 3+, meaning a 20x Sisters of Battle blob with a Lib Conclave? I'd be curious to see how it stacks up.
2015/08/03 21:47:10
Subject: Re:When will other factions get the Tau treatment
As for your power build I was wrong, it has 3 priests. That just makes it even squishier as the priests can do sweet feth all against my two tanks.
Ah, maybe I was wrong. Im not quite sure how the rules work in regarding mixed units - is it the heavy weapon itself that has to move or not or is it the entire unit? Either way though, you are playing to a disadvantage as if you are leaving the Lascannons in the backbench you will have to congaline your blob from them. All it takes is one blast... If you want some AT then you would be better off dropping those 4 Lascannons for 4 Meltas which are chaper and can be fired on the move.
Umm... And why...would...that...matter? Exactly? That I cant affect your two tanks with the Priests? You think its the PRIESTS that do the damage to tanks?
and yes. you were wrong about moving the LasCannons. and no one blast doesnt ruin things for me. Blasts kill the closest thing. if you MEANT barraghe, that assumes they have one. And if they have one that its big enough, hits on target, wounds, i fail my four plus saves aaaaaand dont have enough guys to just move back on my turn...aaaaaand only then if my intention isn't to charge the next round (and it generally is).
That, sir...is a ton of if's. =)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Akiasura... heres what you just said:
1) Can the unit get to where it needs to be (in this case, melee)?
No, this unit can not. It is a fail here.
2) Can this unit be delivered to its effective range (again, melee) safely?
No, this unit can not. As demonstrated, it loses to 20 bikes or 30 marines.
3) Is this unit effective against threats it is likely to meet in its effective range (melee)?
Yes, it can defeat the majority of units it reaches in melee.
4) Can this unit defeat other top tier choices in its effective range?
No, wraith stars and cent stars will shut it down.
So, it can do 1/4, which is a 25%.
In my classes, a 25% is a failing grade.
Heres where my mirth comes from. You state...that it cant get to where it needs to go. And since that is untrue this makes no sense. You're ignoring the obvious fact that it DOES get to where it has to go. YOU don't define where it needs to go. Lol.
You havent demonstrated that it loses to any of those bikes or Marines. I have demonstrated, literally, that it does not. Not on some forum. In fact. because it isn't IN a vacuum. So STATING that this happens does not turn it into a fact.
You agree it smashes things. Fine.
Then you try to place YOUR value judgement as to where it places in the top 25% as the deciding factor as to whether it is in the top 25%. You basically say "Iit is isnt because I said so, no matter how many times it refused to die and no matter how many times it wins or loses me the battle or has no say in the final outcome". This unit has eaten Wraith Stars (we have a fair number of Necron players in the general vicinity) so here again: no idea what you're talking about. The sheer volume of attacks is enough to grind them ever so slowly down. It has butchered Centurion Stars. Its done all this. A
Those things you mention are busy being whittled and shot before they ever arrive if not outright killed... or... they are busy with other elements of the army. No ones suggesting those things arent good. But they arent the answer to THIS. You'd WASTE a Centurion stars shooting on this guard unit? They fire the equivalent of STR 5 guns when it comes to us and wounding it on 5's. So... I mean... thats insane to even suggest.
If all you want to do is say "Centurions are cooler in my opinion" you do that. Denturion star with Tiggy is what? 400 points or something like that? Without a transport? That has zero, literally, to do with whether the Astra Militarum need the "Tau Treatment". They don't need it. this unit is a very good way to counter a lot of cool things in 40K. The sheer volume and accuracy of pewpew, the sheer variety of targets it can take out, and the psyker defense and death blossom effect is just really good. The rest of the army finds it much easier to do its job when these boys are on the job.
None of your points really answers the question at all on hos it failed. it doesn't fail to get where it needs to go just because you DECIDE it can't., it takes out most anything it fights and the things it can't fight (generally IK's, though I suppose if you add meltabombs it might do that too) the "Tau Treatment" isn't necessary.
I really do think you'd have a different opinion of you had to face it and all that comes with it. Butthe unit itself is tremendously effective in actual demonstable games, tailoring aside.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/03 22:09:50
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
As for your power build I was wrong, it has 3 priests. That just makes it even squishier as the priests can do sweet feth all against my two tanks.
Ah, maybe I was wrong. Im not quite sure how the rules work in regarding mixed units - is it the heavy weapon itself that has to move or not or is it the entire unit? Either way though, you are playing to a disadvantage as if you are leaving the Lascannons in the backbench you will have to congaline your blob from them. All it takes is one blast... If you want some AT then you would be better off dropping those 4 Lascannons for 4 Meltas which are chaper and can be fired on the move.
Umm... And why...would...that...matter? Exactly? That I cant affect your two tanks with the Priests? You think its the PRIESTS that do the damage to tanks?
and yes. you were wrong about moving the LasCannons. and no one blast doesnt ruin things for me. Blasts kill the closest thing. if you MEANT barraghe, that assumes they have one. And if they have one that its big enough, hits on target, wounds, i fail my four plus saves aaaaaand dont have enough guys to just move back on my turn...aaaaaand only then if my intention isn't to charge the next round (and it generally is).
That, sir...is a ton of if's. =)
[lots of other stuff that I shall leave for now]
The fact that you cannot affect my two tanks with your priests is a big one as that essentially means that nothing in your blob can hurt them unless you either:
A) Purchase a number of power axe's/mauls for your Sergeants.
or
B) spend another (10xnumber of Infantry sections) points to give everyone Krak Grenades.
Both methods are expensive and the first one is not really a good idea against armour.
Eh, I didnt realise about the Lascannon thing, thanks for pointing that out to me.
Okay the problem with your conga line is that your combat effectiveness is reduced by a number of models equal too the distance your unit has travelled divided by two. So for an average 36" assault range you will lose your 6 Lascannoneers plus another 18 models for a grand total of 24 attacks that you are not getting.
Another thing that you fail to account for is the fact that I will not be sitting still. Barrages are all very well and good but what about a flanking unit hitting your conga line? Suddenly the closest models ARE the all so vital conga and suddenly your blob is out of unit coherency by a vast amount. It wont happen you say? Well I have done similar before, although not to a conga of this length. And this length means that I just get to choose my engagement point better.
Free from GW's tyranny and the hobby is looking better for it
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2015/11/03 22:40:35
Subject: Re:When will other factions get the Tau treatment
As for your power build I was wrong, it has 3 priests. That just makes it even squishier as the priests can do sweet feth all against my two tanks.
Ah, maybe I was wrong. Im not quite sure how the rules work in regarding mixed units - is it the heavy weapon itself that has to move or not or is it the entire unit? Either way though, you are playing to a disadvantage as if you are leaving the Lascannons in the backbench you will have to congaline your blob from them. All it takes is one blast... If you want some AT then you would be better off dropping those 4 Lascannons for 4 Meltas which are chaper and can be fired on the move.
Umm... And why...would...that...matter? Exactly? That I cant affect your two tanks with the Priests? You think its the PRIESTS that do the damage to tanks?
and yes. you were wrong about moving the LasCannons. and no one blast doesnt ruin things for me. Blasts kill the closest thing. if you MEANT barraghe, that assumes they have one. And if they have one that its big enough, hits on target, wounds, i fail my four plus saves aaaaaand dont have enough guys to just move back on my turn...aaaaaand only then if my intention isn't to charge the next round (and it generally is).
That, sir...is a ton of if's. =)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Akiasura... heres what you just said:
1) Can the unit get to where it needs to be (in this case, melee)?
No, this unit can not. It is a fail here.
2) Can this unit be delivered to its effective range (again, melee) safely?
No, this unit can not. As demonstrated, it loses to 20 bikes or 30 marines.
3) Is this unit effective against threats it is likely to meet in its effective range (melee)?
Yes, it can defeat the majority of units it reaches in melee.
4) Can this unit defeat other top tier choices in its effective range?
No, wraith stars and cent stars will shut it down.
So, it can do 1/4, which is a 25%.
In my classes, a 25% is a failing grade.
Heres where my mirth comes from. You state...that it cant get to where it needs to go. And since that is untrue this makes no sense. You're ignoring the obvious fact that it DOES get to where it has to go. YOU don't define where it needs to go. Lol.
The unit itself defines where it needs to go. It has a ranged output of 4 lascannons (which, for 600+ points, is 150 points per lascannon). It needs to be in melee to have a hope of earning its points back or having an impact on the field.
You havent demonstrated that it loses to any of those bikes or Marines. I have demonstrated, literally, that it does not. Not on some forum. In fact. because it isn't IN a vacuum. So STATING that this happens does not turn it into a fact.
I have. Do you need me to link the math again? Or perhaps walk you through it?
Again, you haven't demonstrated anything. You've provided some batreps that are sounding worse by the minute, tbf (A wounded wraithknight charging a unit like this knowing it has the ability to destroy it from overwatch? Really?).
Everything I have stated is a fact based on math. On average, 20 scat bikes will eliminate this squad in 2 turns. On average, 3 deep striking marines armed with no special weapons will destroy this in 2 turns. On average, equivalent points in wraiths and flayed ones will roll this squad.
Then you try to place YOUR value judgement as to where it places in the top 25% as the deciding factor as to whether it is in the top 25%.
I never claimed it isn't in the top 25%. I said it isn't as good as the best deathstars in the game.
And it's not. Go look at the NOVA or ETC or any other large tournament. This blob is absent, while most of the other deathstars are out in force. This game isn't complicated, there is a simple reason for that. Compare the two in regards to field impact, durability to shooting, and melee punch and this comes up short in most categories.
You basically say "Iit is isnt because I said so, no matter how many times it refused to die and no matter how many times it wins or loses me the battle or has no say in the final outcome". This unit has eaten Wraith Stars (we have a fair number of Necron players in the general vicinity) so here again: no idea what you're talking about. The sheer volume of attacks is enough to grind them ever so slowly down. It has butchered Centurion Stars. Its done all this.
Again, I have a hard time seeing this unit butchering wraiths. They strike first and can eliminate a decent number of enemies (I want to say 15 or so in the first turn). Most of your guys need 4's to hit and 6's to wound, combined with a 3++ and 4+ (better toughness than your troops, and you only outnumber them 2 to 1 at this point). The axe troops fair slightly better, needing a 5 to wound, but is still pretty bad since you won't ignore either of their saves.
Cent stars are even worse, since they usually manage to get some sort of extremely low rerollable save and have really nice firepower on top of it.
Again, we are comparing what happens on average (using math) versus what you claim happens in your local games (which are sounding more and more casual).
Those things you mention are busy being whittled and shot before they ever arrive if not outright killed... or... they are busy with other elements of the army. No ones suggesting those things arent good. But they arent the answer to THIS. You'd WASTE a Centurion stars shooting on this guard unit? They fire the equivalent of STR 5 guns when it comes to us and wounding it on 5's. So... I mean... thats insane to even suggest.
No, with marines I'd drop 3 drop pods on this squad and pretty much cripple it. If it wants to engage me in melee combat I'd let it, since it's pretty easy to roll over. I could always just move away from it since it's slow.
I'd shoot your tanks with the grav star.
You'll notice I never once suggested the centstar would be shooting at this unit. I suggested it could outmelee this unit while ignoring it's firepower, and so it can.
While a cent star is more expensive than this squad, the counters I listed are less expensive and can target you pretty easily. The rest of the army doesn't factor into it.
But if you want to compare the SM/Eldar dex to IG and say who has brought the better "rest of the army", go ahead.
If all you want to do is say "Centurions are cooler in my opinion" you do that. Denturion star with Tiggy is what? 400 points or something like that? Without a transport? That has zero, literally, to do with whether the Astra Militarum need the "Tau Treatment". They don't need it. this unit is a very good way to counter a lot of cool things in 40K. The sheer volume and accuracy of pewpew, the sheer variety of targets it can take out, and the psyker defense and death blossom effect is just really good. The rest of the army finds it much easier to do its job when these boys are on the job.
If 4 lascannons with re-rollable bs 3 is a lot of firepower to you, that's great. Sadly in most competitive meta's 150 points per lascannon is just terrible.
It can't take out a lot of units at range. In melee, sure. But it won't do so until late game, and the enemy has to not shoot it (since it's pretty easy to remove, as I've shown), so it seems like it only does well against bad generals and casual lists. Which is what we've seen from your reports so far.
None of your points really answers the question at all on hos it failed. it doesn't fail to get where it needs to go just because you DECIDE it can't., it takes out most anything it fights and the things it can't fight (generally IK's, though I suppose if you add meltabombs it might do that too) the "Tau Treatment" isn't necessary.
I answered each one of them in kind. Again, I used math and commonly encountered scenarios.
If you want I can talk about how bad the IG blob was when it first released under DA allies back in the day. It was a bit tougher then, but it still wasn't anything special.
I really do think you'd have a different opinion of you had to face it and all that comes with it. Butthe unit itself is tremendously effective in actual demonstable games, tailoring aside.
Again, I didn't list tailor.
I took 3 drop pod marines. 3. They are an extremely common unit, and that is the most common way of taking them. I didn't give them flamers or anything they wouldn't normally take.
20 scat bikers is also an extremely common thing to see. Go to any competitive tournament army list section and you'll easily see double that being used.
15 wraiths isn't anything special either. I see many lists with twice that locally.
No one is list tailoring. Many common units wipe this unit off the table without losing more than 20-30% of equivalent points. SM in pods do the worse and still do it okay.
2015/11/03 22:43:04
Subject: When will other factions get the Tau treatment
Your unit seems interesting but I have several questions. Why does it have lascannons? You state that this unit's primary purpose is to get into assault (where it could be effective with shear number of attacks), but then give it an expensive heavy weapon. Even if you just move the blob, the weapon's accuracy has dropped to negligible levels and if you try to run (to reach the enemy to get into combat), then you cannot fire it at all. Would it not be better to save your shooty stuff for the shooty units and let your fighty units fight?
Second, the blob still suffers from not having anything stronger that S: 3 in close combat. This means that they will be at a disadvantage against most common units. Going against this with basic units like bikerboyz or SM on bikes (T: 5) would mean that you can only wound us on 6s before having to get through an armour save.
Third, your blob is too big. Having played blob orks, playing a mob this big means that you have to accept that there is no way to put this thing in cover if you want to advance across the board. Any choke points caused by things like buildings set any close to each other will result in you forces either spaghettiing as they try to avoid bunching up (making it harder to get the ones in the back into close combat where you want them) or will result in your troops being forced to move close together and becoming vulnerable to blast weapons.
Your mob is too slow to be an effective close combat squad. Close combat currently suffers because you have to be able to reach your opponent to make it happen. Any turn spent walking and running towards the enemy is a turn where your opponent is shooting you and you do not get to make any points back. A lot of the close combat builds get around this limitation by being fast (bikerbuilds), being durable (flyrants), or by having the numbers to ignore losses (by numbers I mean stuff like the ork mob that has 100 models minimum). Your mob would spend too many turns walking (especially if they waste time with those lascannons) that they won't have enough time in close combat to earn their points back. Their speed also limits their use as last turn objective grabbers because you have to be close to all the objectives that you grab, unlike a biker star that can explode and grab objectives all across the board.
Finally, you mob is still consisted of basic guardsmen with T:3 and weak armour. They will die in handfuls to enemy fire and to your opponent's close combat attacks. Even tau will be able to remove guardsmen in close combat. Basic guns like the boltgun and shoota wound on a 3+ and the spammable high rate of fire dakkagun can remove guard on a 2+, quickly reducing this unit below a use able capacity. Once this squad has been reduced to 20 or so guradsmen then it no longer poses much of a threat in close combat because they lost their insane number of attacks and can be safely ignored.
While the unit may work for you, it is hardly optimal and suffers from some questionable choices. I think you need to consider the age old adage "boys before toys" when considering the addition of the lascannons and all those special characters, dropping the squads point price by a lot would go a ways towards making it a distraction unit that can camp an objective (though still suboptimal compared to camping some of the stuff in other codices).
Lascannons dont move, rest of the unit does. They fire at full BS, re-rolling with prescience (possibly with more rules from orders) like all heavy weapons that don't move within their units. The Lascannons cannot be hidden better in any place on the board than they can in the 40 man blob so they are safer there. In addition it takes away the enemies option to say "Well I cant beat it in melee but I can stop the incoming fire and lessen it". Which they probably WOULD wish to do, thinking from my opponents realistic side of his brain. the Prescience is useful in all phases so having it affect the cannons necessarily gives my melee the boost it also needs without a second casting being necessary so its more efficient use of the Psyker dice as well.
The Str 3 is an issue but remember we are re-rolling to hit and to wound. the Guardsman damage is kind of icing on the cake. Because the real damge is done when we fire off 28 Power Axe attacks. Clearly this solves a lot of problems that you mention. and if you are lucky on rolls, you might even get a stray smash attack from a Priest (STR 6 ap 2) though this is of relatively minor consequence in the grand scheme and hes not really there to do that. Since we cannot break, it is somewhat like what happens when Scarab Swarms hit you. if you've ever had 14 of them hit you you kind of know what I mean. The Guardsman are much MUCH more devastating than that though. 4+ re-rollable saves? It matters little what we're fighting. We will lose almost no one. We will kill plenty. We will force the issue.
I agree as to the effects of terrain. Terrain does slow it down. Unlike orks who MUST get as FAR forward as possible as quick as possible to avoid annihilation, we don't have nearly that problem with a 4+ invul save (plus 5+ armor too if that fails). So we're really not relying on cover like Orks do. Once you engage us, or we engage you, that combat wont end until one of us is dead (Zealots). As I illustrated, that pretty much means when the enemy is dead And we will get a lot of terrain free movement from that and consolidations! Charges also do a lot for those intervening distances but really the blobs job also isn't the same in this sense: unlike orks, we are content to control the board from the center depending on the enemy type. I mean I am sure you can imagine that some enemies will definitely prompt us to move and move hard (for which the Move! move! Move! rule is quite handy and again cares nothing about terrain as orks would). Our presence and girth force the enemy units far to the sides if they want safety and to avoid giving us that free movement (and movement was your point) which protects our Lascannons and other machines of war. So unlike the orks who you really rely on so much to do the work, we are accomplishing a little bit more just because we can take so much more punishment. We are giving a BIG chunk of our army a relatively longer life span to do its damage using a completely legitimate threat that you cant just hope to force your way past. Deep Striking units will try to get around it and with some success i might add. At that point, if the pod lands, you have a tough choice to make: hurt the blob but lose your unit and give up free movement oooor... kill something else and maaaaybe not lose your unit?
As for your mantra of boyz before toys: i get that too. This is an atypical unit for me to build, actually. the Lascannons are very safe in that unit and if someone wants ot rumble, they will be free to fire again quite soon if needed. Those are just the realities. It takes a SERIOUS unit with a loto f wounds to give in order to slow it down as the Talos were able to do with a lot of help. But even they were in peril from instant death and would have eventually succumbed without help (which they got). and lets face it: not everyone had a 600 point Talos unit to fight a 600+ point IG squad. though its titan on titan at that point. So...
Honestly, It's an ok unit. But it will be wrecked by a squadron of wyverns. And for much cheaper to boot. I don't care if you have a 4+ invuln. A squadron of wyverns firing on that blob will force so many wounds through that the blob WILL lose models.
TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
2015/11/03 22:48:23
Subject: Re:When will other factions get the Tau treatment
Go look at the NOVA or ETC or any other large tournament. This blob is absent, while most of the other deathstars are out in force. .
Well if you're playing Space Marines youre not too likely to be using an IG blob are you? Lol. So as Imperial Guard lists went, I note that BOTH the unit was absent and IG were absent from the top rankings simultaneously. Hmm... I see a correlation there somewhere... Or maybe its just a coincidence. Probably is. But you cant demonstrate that so...
No, with marines I'd drop 3 drop pods on this squad and pretty much cripple it. .
Travis thought so too. This simply is not the case though. He dropped in with that AND his Fragioso! 35 hits. Pretty good sicne I was dpread out. that's 23 wounds. Saves: 11 or 12 dead. Also pretty good. My multicharge took them all out in a few phases. and hid me from two rounds of his shooting. 30 marines gone. Seems like a poor exchange. But he had to try something right?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
master of ordinance wrote: Please Jancoran, can you tell me where all these 28 Power Axe attacks are coming from? Is every psyker, priest and sergeant so equipped with one?
4 sergeants with x 4 attacks on the charge (or counter attack withthe Foreboding power as the case may be). 16 attacks.
3 psykers with Force Weapons on the charge (or counter attack with foreboding). 12 attacks.
thats 28 attacks
Also: Re-roll to hits (prescience or more likely, Zealot rule). More importantly, Re-rolls to wound (Priest). Enemy will go first so I will get 4+ invuls, re-rolling (priest).
Quite good.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2015/11/03 22:58:11
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
I do enjoy how it's assumed that this unit will always have the necessary psychic supports... If we're going that route, then I can just as easily say that my mono Tzeentch Daemons will always have a LoC gaining Corpulescence + Daemonic Resilience and Precognition for a tidy 305pts of your blob!
Plus the additional fistful of WC's my army has that will shut down your critical augments... (you're relying entirely on Forewarning for protection - I can typically rock 16+ WC's without breaking a sweat!)
And a max unit of Flamers that'll rock re-rolled 2++ saves...
And a couple units of 'counts as' Beasts that can counter-charge the blob's target unit(s)...
And Screamers who can simply annoy the crap out of it with their slashes...
I've played against a few Guard 'deathblobs' with a highly friendly Tzeentch Daemon list, (including Flamers, Locus of D6Str. Horrors, 'counts as' Beasts), and never once had trouble dealing with it.
Honestly, I love the idea of a scary close combat guard blob. I would love to do a proper Feral Guard regiment myself!
However, it would be better off rocking Santic+Divination for better synergies, (Forewarning + Sanctuary & Hammerhand), or else just allying in better psykers with access to Telepathy for full blown Invis OP'ness and the ability to Shriek away most things that could threaten to lock it down.
CSM/Daemon Party 
The Spiky Grot Legion 
The Heavily-Ignored Pedro and Friends 
<Dynasty> 
War Coven of the Coruscating Gaze 
~3000pts
Thrice-Damned Plague Corps 
~3250pts
Admech (TBN) 
- 
-- $k 
-- 9k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
-- 
your blob!