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Rihgu wrote:
When GSC get updated to a full army, if their limos had an equally inexplicable AV14 would everyone be expected to accept it because "Tyranids finally got something good"?

if you're going to fluff it as civilian equipment with all SAFETY protocols turned off, you should at the very least give it Gets Hot.

This civilian equipment is currently as good (or better) than military grade plasma rifles AND safer.

Plasma rifles are rapid fire and not heavy, this is not better.
People really will complain and pick fights about anything won't they?

 Accolade wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Accolade wrote:
It's interesting that all of the units have no options other than bog-standard size/equipment. I wonder if these rules will just be temporary until a legit codex comes out.

They're named formations/characters.

Very rarely do those have options.

Ah, gotcha. I wasn't sure since I saw the usual Elite/Troop/Fast Attack symbols next to them. Thanks Kan

You're quite welcome.

If I had to make a semi-educated guess? I would say whenever we see the final products, it would be like so on GSC:

HQ
Magus
Patriarch
Primus

Elite
Aberrants
Purestrains

Troops
First & Second Generation Hybrids(AP/CCWs with a Rending Claw and Assault Grenades; smaller unit size but heavier hitting unit)
Third & Fourth Generation Hybrids(Autoguns with options for scavenged heavy/special weapons mixed in; larger unit size and basically bullet shields)

Maybe Aberrants getting the ability to be doled out into units of Hybrids?

Deathwatch:
HQ
Chaplain
Watch-Captain
Librarian

Elite
Kill-Marines done similar to Lone Wolves; options for Jump Packs or Terminator Armor. Infantry(Character)
Deathwatch Terminator Squad OR a Deathwatch Dreadnought

Troops
Deathwatch Squad--each model is Infantry(Character) as we saw with Squad Donatus; models take individual upgrades but otherwise are one unit

Fast Attack
Deathwatch Scout--Bike or on Foot. Infantry(Character)

 BloodGrin wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
When GSC get updated to a full army, if their limos had an equally inexplicable AV14 would everyone be expected to accept it because "Tyranids finally got something good"?

if you're going to fluff it as civilian equipment with all SAFETY protocols turned off, you should at the very least give it Gets Hot.

This civilian equipment is currently as good (or better) than military grade plasma rifles AND safer.

Plasma rifles are rapid fire and not heavy, this is not better.
People really will complain and pick fights about anything won't they?

But Plasma rifles do Gets Hot! and aren't S9.

edit: so this is strictly better at ranges between 12 and 24".
edit2: not strictly, since you can move and shoot Plasma Rifles. Confused Rapid Fire with Salvo for a second

 CT GAMER wrote:
Anything in the game that makes marine players and their fleet of free Razorbacks salty is a good thing in my book.

I'm sure this new god weapon is going to totally shake up and unbalance the tourney scene...

I'm not a tourney player, but it wouldn't scare me. Correct me if my math is off: 2 shots at the front of a razorback, needing 4+/6+ to hit, and 5+ to wound... not much to be afraid of.

The lascannon on a razorback is twin-linked, has double the range, hits the GSC on 3+/6+ and wounds/kills on a 2+.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Deathwatch:
HQ
Chaplain
Watch-Captain
Librarian

Elite
Kill-Marines done similar to Lone Wolves; options for Jump Packs or Terminator Armor. Infantry(Character)
Deathwatch Terminator Squad OR a Deathwatch Dreadnought

Troops
Deathwatch Squad--each model is Infantry(Character) as we saw with Squad Donatus; models take individual upgrades but otherwise are one unit

Fast Attack
Deathwatch Scout--Bike or on Foot. Infantry(Character)

I wish they'd allow for Deathwatch Assault and Tactical Squads. And Terminators!

BaronVonSnakPak wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:
Anything in the game that makes marine players and their fleet of free Razorbacks salty is a good thing in my book.

I'm sure this new god weapon is going to totally shake up and unbalance the tourney scene...

I'm not a tourney player, but it wouldn't scare me. Correct me if my math is off: 2 shots at the front of a razorback, needing 4+/6+ to hit, and 5+ to wound... not much to be afraid of.

The lascannon on a razorback is twin-linked, has double the range, hits the GSC on 3+/6+ and wounds/kills on a 2+.

The big GSC formation grants you Stealth and Infiltrate.
Additionally, if you Infiltrate? You get Shrouded until the start of turn 2.

BaronVonSnakPak wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:
Anything in the game that makes marine players and their fleet of free Razorbacks salty is a good thing in my book.

I'm sure this new god weapon is going to totally shake up and unbalance the tourney scene...

I'm not a tourney player, but it wouldn't scare me. Correct me if my math is off: 2 shots at the front of a razorback, needing 4+/6+ to hit, and 5+ to wound... not much to be afraid of.

The lascannon on a razorback is twin-linked, has double the range, hits the GSC on 3+/6+ and wounds/kills on a 2+.

It's a 2+, just fyi

Rihgu wrote:

 BloodGrin wrote:

Rihgu wrote:
When GSC get updated to a full army, if their limos had an equally inexplicable AV14 would everyone be expected to accept it because "Tyranids finally got something good"?

if you're going to fluff it as civilian equipment with all SAFETY protocols turned off, you should at the very least give it Gets Hot.

This civilian equipment is currently as good (or better) than military grade plasma rifles AND safer.

Plasma rifles are rapid fire and not heavy, this is not better.
People really will complain and pick fights about anything won't they?

But Plasma rifles do Gets Hot! and aren't S9.

edit: so this is strictly better at ranges between 12 and 24".
edit2: not strictly, since you can move and shoot Plasma Rifles. Confused Rapid Fire with Salvo for a second

I don't think it matters if it is better or worse. GW decided GSC needed a short range lascannon and so they got one and then gave an explanation. Accept or don't accept. The "whole" safety protocol thing... what if they exist not to protect the user but specifically to keep it from being used as a weapon and yet is still somehow disabled?

 Kanluwen wrote:

BaronVonSnakPak wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:
Anything in the game that makes marine players and their fleet of free Razorbacks salty is a good thing in my book.

I'm sure this new god weapon is going to totally shake up and unbalance the tourney scene...

I'm not a tourney player, but it wouldn't scare me. Correct me if my math is off: 2 shots at the front of a razorback, needing 4+/6+ to hit, and 5+ to wound... not much to be afraid of.

The lascannon on a razorback is twin-linked, has double the range, hits the GSC on 3+/6+ and wounds/kills on a 2+.

The big GSC formation grants you Stealth and Infiltrate.
Additionally, if you Infiltrate? You get Shrouded until the start of turn 2.

Alright, they're within firing range turn 1 and gives them a 4+ open ground save for the first turn, but it doesn't change their to hit and wound roll numbers. 2 heavy 1 shots at BS3 still isn't scary.

BaronVonSnakPak wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:
Anything in the game that makes marine players and their fleet of free Razorbacks salty is a good thing in my book.

I'm sure this new god weapon is going to totally shake up and unbalance the tourney scene...

I'm not a tourney player, but it wouldn't scare me. Correct me if my math is off: 2 shots at the front of a razorback, needing 4+/6+ to hit, and 5+ to wound... not much to be afraid of.

The lascannon on a razorback is twin-linked, has double the range, hits the GSC on 3+/6+ and wounds/kills on a 2+.

I was being sarcastic. Marine players complaining that what will probably amount to a poorly supported niche sub-faction getting a nice toy is beyond facepalm inducing. In a world dominated by uber-cheese, alliance abuse, 100s of free points and of course Eldar; cultists getting a nifty laser cannon is a moot point...

 CT GAMER wrote:

I was being sarcastic. Marine players complaining that what will probably amount to a poorly supported niche sub-faction getting a nice toy is beyond facepalm inducing. In a world dominated by uber-cheese, alliance abuse, 100s of free points and of course Eldar cultists getting a laser cannon is a moot point...

Gotcha. It's hard to differentiate between sarcasm and salt on 40k forums these days.

 the_Armyman wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Apparently, the Imperium has REALLY advanced mining equipment. How many armies would like a R24" S9 AP2 weapon with no drawbacks? My Deathwing and GK should take temp jobs on the nearest mining colony...

It's a Heavy weapon on a BS3 T35+ sv model. It may be stronger than expected, but let's not pretend it has "no drawbacks".

My point was that it's ridiculous to think a mining laser is superior to most of the weapons in the game. A tool purpose-built for mining makes a pretty devastating weapon? Why do termies bother with storm bolters when they could carry a mining laser?

Why are termies just as fast as other units when they should be slower?

Answer: Just because. Funny I didn't see you champion this that Terminators are too fast.

BaronVonSnakPak wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

BaronVonSnakPak wrote:

 CT GAMER wrote:
Anything in the game that makes marine players and their fleet of free Razorbacks salty is a good thing in my book.

I'm sure this new god weapon is going to totally shake up and unbalance the tourney scene...

I'm not a tourney player, but it wouldn't scare me. Correct me if my math is off: 2 shots at the front of a razorback, needing 4+/6+ to hit, and 5+ to wound... not much to be afraid of.

The lascannon on a razorback is twin-linked, has double the range, hits the GSC on 3+/6+ and wounds/kills on a 2+.

The big GSC formation grants you Stealth and Infiltrate.
Additionally, if you Infiltrate? You get Shrouded until the start of turn 2.

Alright, they're within firing range turn 1 and gives them a 4+ open ground save for the first turn, but it doesn't change their to hit and wound roll numbers. 2 heavy 1 shots at BS3 still isn't scary.

S9 glances a Razorbacks' AV11 on a 2+ FYI.

Here i thought this was the news & rumors page, could you take the rules discussion to, say the rules discussion page?

Any figs spotted yet on ebay or is it still to early?

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Here i thought this was the news & rumors page, could you take the rules discussion to, say the rules discussion page?

Any figs spotted yet on ebay or is it still to early?

Plenty of preorder sales of figs on there.

Other than just for fairness' sake (and to sell more models for 40k, which has it's place in business) the fluff guy in me thinks than neither force in this game should have a rules-supported place among the types of battles that 40k portrays. It would be like giving rules to take Escher gangs alongside your Imperial forces (although that basically did happen in a limited fashion in the Armageddon codex, oddly enough).

These are the types of forces where I always felt having the mechanical capability to deal with things on a battlefield-scale combat feels a bit shoehorned in sometimes, because they are better suited for intense skirmish-level wargaming like Kill Team (in this case, it's where the name came from, lol!).

To me, a Genestealer cult doesn't need any sort of heavy AP ranged weapons. They are either fighting against PDF forces, or in the drastic circumstances involved in facing something like the Deathwatch, they either have to drown them in autogun-fire and pray for the best, or get help from their Purestrain brethren (or hybrids' claws).

If I were playing a special non-board game of these two forces against each other, I think I would find that if GSC only had a melee option to crack armor, it would be what made them unique, rather than hybrid "squads" being set up in the traditional tactical setup of "x number of guys, including one special weapon and one heavy weapon", because that's what everyone else has.

I always found the fun in those situations being that I don't have the extreme options of a 40k battlefield-ready force.

Really, in the fluff, if a cult gets powerful enough to start taking over large areas by force, it seems they would need and have large amounts of the wargear that the Guard has to gain the upper hand, whereupon mechanically on the tabletop they would be more like an Imperial guard force with some Hybrids and purestrains scattered about.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Your contention is meaningless. You may as well ask why Marines aren't all carrying lascannons instead of just one out of 10 of them.

Exactly. Also, their is no reasons for the Imperium to use these lasers for war (not to mention that in the IOM, STC desing are sacred, so modifying them and using them for something else than their intended purpose is forbidden), since the lascannon is actually a much better weapon.

But then, the guy obviously get a thrill out of being a contrarian.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Here i thought this was the news & rumors page, could you take the rules discussion to, say the rules discussion page?

Any figs spotted yet on ebay or is it still to early?

At this point, less than a week from release, I think it's safe to assume we pretty much have all the info about this box. Without any more rumors, talking about unit stats and TT applications is a pretty natural evolution of the discussion. I didn't see people asking for the thread to be moved to P&M when color palettes and methods were being discussed.

As to your question:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xdeathwatch+overkill.TRS0&_nkw=deathwatch+overkill&_sacat=0

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Other than just for fairness' sake (and to sell more models for 40k, which has it's place in business) the fluff guy in me thinks than neither force in this game should have a rules-supported place among the types of battles that 40k portrays. It would be like giving rules to take Escher gangs alongside your Imperial forces (although that basically did happen in a limited fashion in the Armageddon codex, oddly enough).

These are the types of forces where I always felt having the mechanical capability to deal with things on a battlefield-scale combat feels a bit shoehorned in sometimes, because they are better suited for intense skirmish-level wargaming like Kill Team (in this case, it's where the name came from, lol!).

To me, a Genestealer cult doesn't need any sort of heavy AP ranged weapons. They are either fighting against PDF forces, or in the drastic circumstances involved in facing something like the Deathwatch, they either have to drown them in autogun-fire and pray for the best, or get help from their Purestrain brethren (or hybrids' claws).

If I were playing a special non-board game of these two forces against each other, I think I would find that if GSC only had a melee option to crack armor, it would be what made them unique, rather than hybrid "squads" being set up in the traditional tactical setup of "x number of guys, including one special weapon and one heavy weapon", because that's what everyone else has.

I always found the fun in those situations being that I don't have the extreme options of a 40k battlefield-ready force.

Really, in the fluff, if a cult gets powerful enough to start taking over large areas by force, it seems they would need and have large amounts of the wargear that the Guard has to gain the upper hand, whereupon mechanically on the tabletop they would be more like an Imperial guard force with some Hybrids and purestrains scattered about.

Many armies currently bend/brake/rewrite and abuse fluff these days. The alliance rules are a hot mess in this regard as well, daemon summoning, etc. etc. most players ignore fluff as they see fit, so this new GSC aren't prime offenders tbh.


Personally I prefer the kind of battles you describe for GSC and will
Mostly be using them in a narrative Zone Mortalis/ kill-team campign, but GW also wants standard 40k players to use them as well so you get a bit of the " shoe horning" you describe for sure.

SO!!!!!!!!! Correct me if Im wrong, but All these are Formations and not units? Right?

So if that is the case you could do something like this.

Ghosar Quintus Broodkin
The Faithfull Throng x5
Fovoured Disciples x5
Purestrain Princelings x9

Total 1845pts

This wouldnt be a good list at all, Im just asking if this would be a Legal "Bound" list.

With that Said Im thinking of Running 3 Dakka Flyrants, Ghosar Quintus Broodkin, 3 Mucolid Spore's and trying it out later this week or next week.

Guys, why not just think of it that this box represents an isolated colony, specialized in a commodity. Not large. Hadley's hope type thing. That is why this cult is armed the way they are.

If this release proves popular enough, you can surely imagine that future, 40k dedicated releases would include PDF weaponry and more, representing larger cults on larger worlds. You can also imagine tiered Patriarchs... ones like the broodlord esque one we have here, fed by hundreds or thousands, and then larger, more powerful versions fed by millions of cultists.

There is so much room to grow the concept, and ways to approach the fluff as well that allow for the core concept and then splinter variants.

In any case, I guess the point I am making is that if viewed as a very specific cult, not a generalized one, then one can easily 'forgive' (if it even needs forgiving) the limitations of the options.

As to the mining laser issue... it's a laser, powerful enough to blast rock or metals in huge amounts. One would think power was already implied, and range was the only issue needing a jury rigged adjustment. I don't find it a massive stretch of the imagination to think they would figure out a way to rig the mining laser given how ubiquitous and understood laser tech is in the modern imperium. If that is your only gripe, should probably get over it imho.

Also, one would assume a mining colony would be quite well armed to protect from pirates and xenos as well. The amount and type of weapons makes sense for local militia.

Legitimate question: if this is a boardgame with 40K rules added on as an afterthought, why couldn't the uber mining lasers stay in the boardgame version of Deathwatch: Overkill and not bleed into the 40K rules?

 Amishprn86 wrote:
SO!!!!!!!!! Correct me if Im wrong, but All these are Formations and not units? Right?

So if that is the case you could do something like this.

Ghosar Quintus Broodkin
The Faithfull Throng x5
Fovoured Disciples x5
Purestrain Princelings x9

Total 1845pts

This wouldnt be a good list at all, Im just asking if this would be a Legal "Bound" list.

With that Said Im thinking of Running 3 Dakka Flyrants, Ghosar Quintus Broodkin, 3 Mucolid Spore's and trying it out later this week or next week.

And servo skulls ruin your day. Or going second.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
SO!!!!!!!!! Correct me if Im wrong, but All these are Formations and not units? Right?

So if that is the case you could do something like this.

Ghosar Quintus Broodkin
The Faithfull Throng x5
Fovoured Disciples x5
Purestrain Princelings x9

Total 1845pts

This wouldnt be a good list at all, Im just asking if this would be a Legal "Bound" list.

With that Said Im thinking of Running 3 Dakka Flyrants, Ghosar Quintus Broodkin, 3 Mucolid Spore's and trying it out later this week or next week.

And servo skulls ruin your day. Or going second.

The point was... this could be legal.

Every paper has its scissors and every scissors has its rock. Also it depends if your local/meta plays with them.

 the_Armyman wrote:
Legitimate question: if this is a boardgame with 40K rules added on as an afterthought, why couldn't the uber mining lasers stay in the boardgame version of Deathwatch: Overkill and not bleed into the 40K rules?

Counter Question: Why is it a problem? So far, everything else in all the boardgames has been able to transition to 40k/30k, without much of a problem. Including rules for a new weapon (albeit one that functions similarly to another type) seems fine.

Yeah... I don't see the big deal.

 the_Armyman wrote:
Legitimate question: if this is a boardgame with 40K rules added on as an afterthought, why couldn't the uber mining lasers stay in the boardgame version of Deathwatch: Overkill and not bleed into the 40K rules?

Likely because people would get annoyed when they can't use all their brand new miniatures.
Also it's probably likely that people would complain if their GSC had no realistic way to deal with PA level saves and armored vehicles.

 Carnikang wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Legitimate question: if this is a boardgame with 40K rules added on as an afterthought, why couldn't the uber mining lasers stay in the boardgame version of Deathwatch: Overkill and not bleed into the 40K rules?

Counter Question: Why is it a problem? So far, everything else in all the boardgames has been able to transition to 40k/30k, without much of a problem. Including rules for a new weapon (albeit one that functions similarly to another type) seems fine.

Answer: You have failed to establish why this is a problem beyond your single subjective opinion. It is no fictional stretch to modify a man portable, high powered short range laser into a longer range one (which is less effective than the true, dedicated laser cannon). As mentioned, the power supply and all aspects necessary to create a heavy weapon are logically already present but for that one thing. Then, again understanding lasers are common tech in 40k, it is also no stretch to imagine the knowledge necessary to fit a ranged focusing array on it is feasible.

So -
Being reasonable unto the rules of 40k fiction - is it possible to turn the mining laser into a cannon? Yes.
Being reasonable is this gun completely alien and broken in terms of rules of the game and other weapons? No, it fits the rules and range of available guns.
Being reasonable, if the above is true, then have you presented any legitimate reason this gun is a problem other than you are upset it was jury-rigged in fiction and didn't come off of a weapon manufactorum line? No, you haven't.

Honestly man you have been griping on this for a few pages. You just don't like it, no particular reason other than you don't. That is fine, you absolutely don't have to. But stop trying to force others to agree with you when you literally have no compelling argument other than the equivalent of 'I don't like blue on a car, so you can't either'.

Would love to move on now, hopefully the Mods will encourage exactly that, as the topic is stalemated.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
SO!!!!!!!!! Correct me if Im wrong, but All these are Formations and not units? Right?

So if that is the case you could do something like this.

Ghosar Quintus Broodkin
The Faithfull Throng x5
Fovoured Disciples x5
Purestrain Princelings x9

Total 1845pts

This wouldnt be a good list at all, Im just asking if this would be a Legal "Bound" list.

With that Said Im thinking of Running 3 Dakka Flyrants, Ghosar Quintus Broodkin, 3 Mucolid Spore's and trying it out later this week or next week.

They are unit data-slates, formations don't exclusively feature a unit profile and have Troops/Elites/HQ symbols denoting their position in a Force Organization Chart the last time I checked. Them having specific titles rather than generic descriptors doesn't make them Unique or anything different to a regular unit rules-wise. Just so it is clear-cut, formations have their own symbol (look at the Ghosar Quintis Broodkin) distinct from units, check the top left part of each data-slate.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
SO!!!!!!!!! Correct me if Im wrong, but All these are Formations and not units? Right?

I believe you are wrong actually. The various units and characters all have Battlefield Roles (Troops, Elites, HQ) and so are just Unit Entries. The only Formation here is the Ghosar Quintus Broodkin.

You could still legally field them as Combined Arms or Allied Detachments though - up to three of them in fact, with the various HQ's taking a slot in each and the other units filling Troops and Elites slots. (The three HQ's are Unique, so you can only have one of each of them, but the other units are not, so you can have as many as your Formation or Detachment allows - so a max of 18 Troops and 9 Elites choices going with Combined Arms Detachments. Of course, then you lose out on the lovely Broodkin Special Rules.