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2015/12/04 13:14:48
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
Breotan wrote: Getting back to President Obama's statement that he wanted people on the "no fly list" to be barred from purchasing firearms, the Los Angeles Times has this little tidbit.
LA Times wrote:Federal officials who track terrorists abroad and in the U.S. said neither Farook nor Tashfeen Malik were known to them.
So, yea, even if that were the law, it would not have prevented these two from legally purchasing firearms.
That doesn't mean it's a bad idea. I can understand and sympathize with alot of resistance to gun control measures. But for the life of me, I don't understand the resistance to this effort. I know that some like Carly Fiorina are concerned about the people that end up on that list by mistake. So what? Inconveniencing a few people mistakenly placed on a list is nothing against the potential benefit this would provide, and opposing this seems to me like opposing pure common sense.
Maybe someone can convince me that I'm missing something on this issue.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/04 13:18:48
2015/12/04 13:18:27
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
You don't see the problem with the government creating lists of undesirables based on hidden criteria, that you can't get off of?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/12/04 13:19:24
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
I have a huge problem with Constitutionally protected rights being violated without due process, charges, trial and conviction.
Being told you can't own a firearm because the government says you may or may not do something bad in the future, with no prior record or conviction of any crime, is a horrendously terrible idea and precident to set.
"The Omnissiah is my Moderati"
2015/12/04 13:25:01
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
If the people on the list are doing something wrong, the feds should get warrants, collect evidence, and charge them.
To think stripping a group of people of a constitutional right based on inclusion on a list for which the criteria for and membership of is hidden from the public is disgusting. Should we also strip them of their 4th amendment rights to make it easier for the feds to railroad them? Perhaps strip them of their 1st amendment rights and make it illegal for them to practice their religion or speak out about their treatment would be good for public safety too.
In no way do I find it acceptable that some political appointee at DoJ can feth over people based on his/her decision to put them on some list like this.
I honestly can't see how any American would not find this concept appalling. The people on the list have not DONE anything. If they had, they would have been prosecuted, right?
One law enforcement source said investigators are trying to determine whether explosives left at the scene of the shooting were from a design found in Inspire magazine, the online publication of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula. The source noted that the design is easily accessible and doesn't mean the attack was related to Al Qaeda. Police said the device included three pipe bombs attached to a remote-controlled device.
The ties to Pakistan and Saudi indicated AQ more than DaIsh to me.
Also saw the hard drive(s) were removed and they had been using burner phones. That could very well indicate they were protecting other members of a cell/another cell.
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2015/12/04 14:13:39
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
Frazzled wrote: You don't see the problem with the government creating lists of undesirables based on hidden criteria, that you can't get off of?
Is there no mechanism to appeal if your name has made it on the list somehow?
These are constitutional rights. They can't just be eliminated by fiat.
If the list in the future has definitions only bureaucrats know about and are accountable for...
"You're on the list"
"Thats unconstitutional"
"Sue us to get off. Its no big deal"
"why am I on the list?"
"your parents came from Japan"
"...?"
"You just have to prove you're not Japanese. Whats the problem?"
"...?"
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/12/04 14:31:47
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
Frazzled wrote: You don't see the problem with the government creating lists of undesirables based on hidden criteria, that you can't get off of?
Is there no mechanism to appeal if your name has made it on the list somehow?
These are constitutional rights. They can't just be eliminated by fiat.
But it's already being done, that's why felons can't buy guns, it's why domestic abusers can't own guns, nor people with restraining orders. see "the Lautenberg Amendment"
so throwing in the no fly list into the hat isn't that far of a stretch, but instead of posters here would rather defend the rights of known terrorists to get guns. Wouldn't the more obvious thing to do is petition to have the list made public, and implement a grievance procedure to remove names?
NAH, it's america, sell more guns, use the idea of some wrongly accused guy who probably doesn't exists to allow known terrorist who deserve to be on the list to buy all the guns they need.
2015/12/04 14:38:24
Subject: Re:Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
But it's already being done, that's why felons can't buy guns, it's why domestic abusers can't own guns, nor people with restraining orders. see "the Lautenberg Amendment"
That was a law, not a Star Chamber.
so throwing in the no fly list into the hat isn't that far of a stretch, but instead of posters here would rather defend the rights of known terrorists to get guns.
Thats cute. Do you kiss your mother with that mouth? Does she know you're quoting Hitler now?
Wouldn't the more obvious thing to do is petition to have the list made public, and implement a grievance procedure to remove names?
What if the list includes things like..."no darkies!" How do disprove that?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/12/04 14:46:36
Subject: Re:Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
But it's already being done, that's why felons can't buy guns, it's why domestic abusers can't own guns, nor people with restraining orders. see "the Lautenberg Amendment"
That was a law, not a Star Chamber.
Wouldn't the more obvious thing to do is petition to have the list made public, and implement a grievance procedure to remove names?
What if the list includes things like..."no darkies!" How do disprove that?
That's why it should be public, then we would know who's on it, and challenge nonsense like that in court.
But the pro gun crowd doesn't seem interested in who's on it or why, they just want to sell more guns to them.
and what does a 1983 movie have to do with the law? it's a law and it denies constitutional gun rights to americans.
Due Process is "a thing" ya know...
A fundamental, constitutional guarantee that all legal proceedings will be fair and that one will be given notice of the proceedings and an opportunity to be heard before the government acts to take away one's life, liberty, or property. Also, a constitutional guarantee that a law shall not be unreasonable, Arbitrary, or capricious.
Being suspicious of someone isn't enough to deprive him/her of their fundamental rights.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/04 14:49:03
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2015/12/04 14:56:32
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
Frazzled wrote: You don't see the problem with the government creating lists of undesirables based on hidden criteria, that you can't get off of?
Is there no mechanism to appeal if your name has made it on the list somehow?
These are constitutional rights. They can't just be eliminated by fiat.
But it's already being done, that's why felons can't buy guns, it's why domestic abusers can't own guns, nor people with restraining orders. see "the Lautenberg Amendment"
so throwing in the no fly list into the hat isn't that far of a stretch, but instead of posters here would rather defend the rights of known terrorists to get guns. Wouldn't the more obvious thing to do is petition to have the list made public, and implement a grievance procedure to remove names?
NAH, it's america, sell more guns, use the idea of some wrongly accused guy who probably doesn't exists to allow known terrorist who deserve to be on the list to buy all the guns they need.
Your 2A rights, just like many other rights, can be stripped if you've been convicted of a felony. You also lose some of your 4A protections while you're on probation, etc. There's a huge difference between somebody who committed a serious crime being stripped of rights they have proven to be untrustworthy of due to their own willful actions and stripping rights from somebody who hasn't done anything wrong at all.
Being on the No Fly List doesn't make you a terrorist, it doesn't even make you a criminal. The No Fly List is an unconstitutional abuse of govt power whereby the federal govt prevents private citizens from boarding commercial airlines. These same people, on the list, that allegedly can't be trusted to get on an airplane with out hijacking it and/or murdering everyone on board are still free to move around the country, board other methods of mass transit like trains and buses, drive their own car/truck wherever they want, work their jobs, move freely around the country etc. They're not charged with a crime or apprehended. The No Fly List at face value makes no logical sense and is asinine.
If the federal govt has evidence that a person poses a reasonable risk of hijacking an airplane with murderous intent then there should be enough evidence to charge that person with multiple crimes, apprehend that person and prosecute him/her. Simply putting that person on a list so they can't board the airplane doesn't make the country any safer because that same person that is apparently an imminent terroristic threat if they boarded a plane isn't impeded in any way from committing a terrorist act that doesn't involve an airplane.
There have been multiple documented cases of innocent people being put on the No Fly List.
Wouldn't the more obvious thing to do is petition to have the list made public, and implement a grievance procedure to remove names?
Frazzled wrote: What if the list includes things like..."no darkies!" How do disprove that?
That's why it should be public, then we would know who's on it, and challenge nonsense like that in court.
But the pro gun crowd doesn't seem interested in who's on it or why, they just want to sell more guns to them.
and what does a 1983 movie have to do with the law? it's a law and it denies constitutional gun rights to americans.
Check the stories in the links I posted. People have been wrongly put on the No Fly List for years, ever since it's inception. The federal govt has consistently refused to publicize the names on the list, the criteria for being on the list or create a transparent and effective process for removing your name from the list. This is not a new problem, people have been fighting against the No Fly List for years and the govt refuses to address the problems.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/04 15:00:54
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2015/12/04 15:06:16
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
LethalShade wrote: Are people on this list prevented to leave the US by any mean ?
Or can they travel to another country (Canada, Mexico, etc) then fly from there ?
They are simply prevented by flying, but it's no big deal because you can't ever get off the list and you can't really challenge it in court and even if you do, the government will declare the case against you comprises national secrets and it will be dismissed without you even knowing what they think you did. It's pretty reasonable, all in all.
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2015/12/04 15:19:45
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
LethalShade wrote: Are people on this list prevented to leave the US by any mean ?
Or can they travel to another country (Canada, Mexico, etc) then fly from there ?
They are simply prevented by flying, but it's no big deal because you can't ever get off the list and you can't really challenge it in court and even if you do, the government will declare the case against you comprises national secrets and it will be dismissed without you even knowing what they think you did. It's pretty reasonable, all in all.
Yup, their ability to travel via other non airborne methods of mass transit or travel via private vehicles isn't hindered at all. Neither is their ability to go shopping at Walmart, Home Depot, Lowe's or any other large store from which they could purchase items that would be useful in building an IED. The only thing the No Fly List does is prevent people from boarding commercial airline flights. That's it.
Adding a firearm purchasing prohibition onto the No Fly List wouldn't stop them from doing any of the above either. Preventing people on the List from buying guns is a wholly arbitrary restriction based on fear mongering and politics, not logic or reason.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2015/12/04 15:25:52
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
Prestor Jon wrote: Adding a firearm purchasing prohibition onto the No Fly List wouldn't stop them from doing any of the above either. Preventing people on the List from buying guns is a wholly arbitrary restriction based on fear mongering and politics, not logic or reason.
Since we're on the No-Fly list anyway, is there any information at all on how many terrorist attacks this list has prevented to date? I mean, you don't know you're on the list before you're denied boarding a plane - surely hundreds or thousands of people with bombs, guns or knives have been apprehended thanks to this list?
2015/12/04 15:45:50
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
Prestor Jon wrote: Adding a firearm purchasing prohibition onto the No Fly List wouldn't stop them from doing any of the above either. Preventing people on the List from buying guns is a wholly arbitrary restriction based on fear mongering and politics, not logic or reason.
Since we're on the No-Fly list anyway, is there any information at all on how many terrorist attacks this list has prevented to date? I mean, you don't know you're on the list before you're denied boarding a plane - surely hundreds or thousands of people with bombs, guns or knives have been apprehended thanks to this list?
More likely people just have large amounts of time and money wasted when they show up at the airport and get turned around.
Can't say I remember anything dangerous being stopped by it.
"The Omnissiah is my Moderati"
2015/12/04 16:10:47
Subject: Re:Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
DoJ getting busy and promising to defend us and ensure resources are allocated towards the biggest threats.
Speaking to the audience at the Muslim Advocate's 10th anniversary dinner Thursday, Lynch said her "greatest fear" is the "incredibly disturbing rise of anti-Muslim rhetoric" in America and vowed to prosecute any guilty of what she deemed violence-inspiring speech. She said:
The fear that you have just mentioned is in fact my greatest fear as a prosecutor, as someone who is sworn to the protection of all of the American people, which is that the rhetoric will be accompanied by acts of violence. My message to not just the Muslim community but to the entire American community is: we cannot give in to the fear that these backlashes are really based on.
Assuring the pro-Muslim group that "we stand with you," Lynch said she would use her Justice Department to protect Muslims from "violence" and discrimination.
"When we talk about the First Amendment we [must] make it clear that actions predicated on violent talk are not American."
So yeah, giving her the ability to strip folks of constitutional rights by adding them to a list is clearly the way forward.
Folks (including me) were upset at some of the aspects of the Patriot Act. The types of stuff being promoted by the current admin makes that look real tame.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/12/04 16:12:27
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2015/12/04 16:29:57
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/12/04 16:39:21
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
I'm not sure we can believe that. According to her attorney
Attorney David Chelsey, who represents the family of Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik, told CNN “there is a lot of disconnects and there is a lot of unknowns and there is a lot things that quite frankly don’t add up or seem implausible.”
Chelsey said the 90-pound Tashfeen Malik was not involved in the shooting and could not have carried the heavy armory and tactical gear.
“It just doesn’t make sense for these two to act like some kind of Bonnie and Clyde or something,” Chelsey said. “It’s just ridiculous.”
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2015/12/04 17:02:51
Subject: Re:Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
Was not body armor but tactical webbing. Load Bearing gear
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2015/12/04 17:03:21
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
California attacker Tashfeen Malik pledged allegiance to IS
The woman who carried out a gun attack in California pledged allegiance to the leader of the Islamic State (IS) group on Facebook, US officials say.
Tashfeen Malik made the post under an account with a different name, the officials told US media.
Fourteen people were killed and 21 wounded in Wednesday's attack.
Malik and her husband Syed Rizwan Farook, 28, died in a shootout with police after the killings at San Bernardino, east of Los Angeles.
The New York Times reported that there was no evidence that IS had directed the couple in the attack.
"At this point we believe they were more self-radicalised and inspired by the group than actually told to do the shooting," the newspaper quoted an official as saying.
Tashfeen Malik is reported to have posted the message on Facebook in support of IS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi. The post has since been removed.
After the attack at the Inland Regional Center social services agency, bomb equipment, weapons and thousands of rounds of ammunition were found in the couple's home.
They had destroyed computer hard drives and other electronic equipment before the rampage took place, a US government source said on Friday.
Investigators are also said to be following up a report that Farook had argued with a colleague at work who denounced the "inherent dangers of Islam".
Malik was born in Pakistan and had recently lived in Saudi Arabia.
Intelligence officials in Pakistan have contacted relatives there, a family member quoted by Reuters said.
Police said between 75 and 80 people were at the centre when the shooting began.
The identities of the victims have since been released by San Bernardino's coroner, revealing that the youngest was 26 and the oldest was 60.
Who are the victims?
Officials said the attack indicated there had been "some degree of planning" and local police chief Jarrod Burguan said it appeared that the couple were prepared to carry out another attack.
"There was obviously a mission here. We know that. We do not know why. We don't know if this was the intended target or if there was something that triggered him to do this immediately," said David Bowdich, assistant director of the FBI's Los Angeles office.
In the shootout with police hours after the attack, Farook and Malik fired 76 rounds of ammunition at the officers and the officers fired 380 rounds back.
Two police officers were injured during the pursuit.
Starting to look like this was an attack inspired by ISIS rather than ordered by them.
2015/12/04 17:08:43
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
The wife was from Pakistan. Very recent immigrant and passed DHS vetting. OOPS
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2015/12/04 17:09:46
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
hotsauceman1 wrote: So rumors are flying around that they where american born, is that true?
I think he was (parents were immigrants) and she was born in Pakistan, came in on a K1 visa (or which ever visa allows a citizen to bring in someone to get married).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jihadin wrote: Was not body armor but tactical webbing. Load Bearing gear
Yep, and we've known that for a couple days I think. I'm not sure how old the interview with the lawyer is. Maybe the info about armor was not out at that time.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/12/04 17:10:58
Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings.
2015/12/04 17:12:07
Subject: Active shooter, reports of multiple victims in San Bernardino, Calif.
sirlynchmob wrote: But it's already being done, that's why felons can't buy guns, it's why domestic abusers can't own guns, nor people with restraining orders. see "the Lautenberg Amendment"
so throwing in the no fly list into the hat isn't that far of a stretch, but instead of posters here would rather defend the rights of known terrorists to get guns. Wouldn't the more obvious thing to do is petition to have the list made public, and implement a grievance procedure to remove names?
NAH, it's america, sell more guns, use the idea of some wrongly accused guy who probably doesn't exists to allow known terrorist who deserve to be on the list to buy all the guns they need.
And everything you have listed is subject to due process before the Courts. Something that is conspicuously absent from being placed on a No Fly List. If these people are in fact a threat gather evidence, bring them to trial, and if the evidence warrants it then convict them.