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Out of all the formations in the new Mont'ka book, this is by far my favorite!

I've heard lists with 15 Piranhas proposed before, but with this formation they become amazing. I fully intend to build a list with 16 of them (5x3+1), but I'm a little torn on how to equip them and how the rest of the list should look like supporting it. I imagine two ways to run it:

1. Drone Factory - 16 Piranhas with stock burst cannon.

2. Seeker shoals - Same 16 piranhas as above, although with 2 seeker missiles on every piranha except the targeting team, which gets sensor spines and disruption pods. It ups the cost to 900pts and plays differently.


So the choice is between a crap-ton of S5ap5, or slightly less of that with plenty of S8ap3 on top. I consider a Drone-Net of at least 4x4 marker drones mandatory as support, granting some ML hits and native BS3 to the drones. On top of that I'm leaning towards an Enclaves CAD seeing as the list will be over-saturated with pulse fire as it is. Crisis suits can act as troop choices while providing an ap2 solution, the only thing that the formation can't provide, while kroot and fire warriors fill the same niche as drones (with exception that they're scoring). There's simply no need for more pulse fire with this formation.

Which of the above versions would you run, and how would you support it? What are the glaring weaknesses? Discuss!

You should build for 2, play for 1. Let's you stay flexible.

SJ

The Drone factory is more annoying to the enemy, but Seeker Festival is closer to my taste on Piranhas. And I don't have that many drones anyway

I'm thinking about factory for turns 1 and 2, then half factory/half festival for turns 3 and 4, followed by all festival on turn 5.

SJ

Pretty broken. Where did you find those rules?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I'm thinking about factory for turns 1 and 2, then half factory/half festival for turns 3 and 4, followed by all festival on turn 5.

SJ

Yeah thats how I would run it. Thats a hell of a lot of drones and a ridiculous amount of Str 8 weapons being fired lol

I'm sure it's gona get banned everywhere. So, what's that new Mont'ka book? Cause i didn't find this thing in the dex.

Holy Ship! That's nasty!

This is the new Tervigon-spam. Ouch.

 koooaei wrote:
I'm sure it's gona get banned everywhere. So, what's that new Mont'ka book? Cause i didn't find this thing in the dex.

Its basically a supplemental codex. Its essentially the new farsight enclave codex

 koooaei wrote:
I'm sure it's gona get banned everywhere. So, what's that new Mont'ka book? Cause i didn't find this thing in the dex.

Yep, Mont'ka.

 koooaei wrote:
I'm sure it's gona get banned everywhere. So, what's that new Mont'ka book? Cause i didn't find this thing in the dex.

It probably won't be. As many of said "Who has that many drones," It is true.. I just counted all my drones last night and I have about 60 drones. I just posted in a thread the other day I thought I had many more than that!

My spamming will be limited to 2 turns!

I don't think it's about how many drones you physically have. It's more about abusive rules that weren't thought through and that have a real potential of breaking the game. Basically, if you try to play it raw, you'd be tfg.

Yeah, if you play WYSIWYG, you'd have to own a very large number of Drones. I've been playing Tau for a long time and I only have 50 some odd Gun Drones. Sure, I have a smattering of Marker, Shield, etc. Drones, but those aren't Gun Drones.

The current, cheapest way to get Gun Drones is at a cost of 12 USD each on the new Tau Drone sprue, which weirdly can only make one of each type of Drone. The second cheapest is actually the XV8 Crisis Team, which can make 6 Gun Drones at a cost of 12.50 USD each ($75/6), assuming you don't need the Crisis Suits. (I'm also assuming the new Box can make 6 Gun Drones. The old one could.)

Assuming you already have everything else you need...
Assuming you already have 50 Gun Drones from having collected Tau Empire for awhile...
Assuming you can get a solid 20% retail discount...

The extra 110 Gun Drones you would need to pull off a 5 turn Drone Factory without casualties would cost 1056 USD. Now, obviously you'd have the option of getting lots of Drones through eBay and what not, but that's unreliable. I'm talking straight retail with a reasonable discount. Also, you'd probably not need 110 Gun Drones. You're going to have casualties that can be used for future waves. Still though, this is a pretty expensive trick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
I don't think it's about how many drones you physically have. It's more about abusive rules that weren't thought through and that have a real potential of breaking the game. Basically, if you try to play it raw, you'd be tfg.

Gun Drones are exactly game breaking. Sure, you have lots of them, but they're basically walking on from your table edge each turn. If you play a shooty army, it's going to take them at least two turns to get into range (6" move before your shooting phase with 18" range guns). In other words, the last two waves of Drones are more or less useless in terms of attacking. They're also SUPER easy to kill. It's not like 4+ armor is hard to chew through. In fact, any halfway decent assault unit can pretty much just faceroll through them.

I'm not saying it's not a strong formation. I'm just saying that it's not going to be winning any tournaments AND that if you can't deal with Gun Drones that you need to reevaluate your strategy.

Fun Counter... take lots of infiltrating units. Infiltrate across their board edge. Don't give the Piranhas anywhere to come on. They can't move within 1" of an enemy unit, and Piranhas are pretty wide. You really only need a model every ~5-6 inches or so to block off a table edge. Even if you can't block the whole table edge, you should be easily able to block off portions of it. 16 Piranhas need A LOT Of table real estate to come on.

 Kriswall wrote:

Fun Counter... take lots of infiltrating units. Infiltrate across their board edge. Don't give the Piranhas anywhere to come on. They can't move within 1" of an enemy unit, and Piranhas are pretty wide. You really only need a model every ~5-6 inches or so to block off a table edge. Even if you can't block the whole table edge, you should be easily able to block off portions of it. 16 Piranhas need A LOT Of table real estate to come on.

I am not sure that would work.. in current 7ed you cant block off reserves anymore, at least from my understanding.

More importantly though, the piranha are skimmers, so they can just move over whatever units you have there.

NOW what you can do.. is position yourself so that they cannot be within 6" of the board edge to drop drones and pop back in. That is doable. All in all though.. thats going to be some all our nothing counter that wont translate to an all comers list anyway.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Fun Counter... take lots of infiltrating units. Infiltrate across their board edge. Don't give the Piranhas anywhere to come on. They can't move within 1" of an enemy unit, and Piranhas are pretty wide. You really only need a model every ~5-6 inches or so to block off a table edge. Even if you can't block the whole table edge, you should be easily able to block off portions of it. 16 Piranhas need A LOT Of table real estate to come on.

I am not sure that would work.. in current 7ed you cant block off reserves anymore, at least from my understanding.

More importantly though, the piranha are skimmers, so they can just move over whatever units you have there.

NOW what you can do.. is position yourself so that they cannot be within 6" of the board edge to drop drones and pop back in. That is doable. All in all though.. thats going to be some all our nothing counter that wont translate to an all comers list anyway.

True, but tying up over a third of your army to generate Drones isn't exactly a take all comers list either. Gun Drones aren't exactly a take all comers kind of unit. As has been said before, AV12 is an absolute hard counter against Gun Drones. Any vehicle with decent armour can flat out ignore them.

Same, i have about ~50 drones but most of them are in a shabby state since i never need more than 30 even in large games (counting the 10 my piranhas dump off).
While i dont intend to use it just because of model limitations (i am not buying 11 more piranhas and a gakton of drones) i'd seriously call BS if they ban it at tournaments. This is not the only "factory" tactic in the game, and the others are not banned (afaik).

If you use them for the drone factory youre lookin at 32 drones per turn when maxed out, meaning unless your opponent is wiping them out each turn they arrive you will need well over 100 drones QUICK. And considering theyre in 4 squads, clearing them all in 1 turn wouldnt be easy especially at a distance.

As for the AV12, the amount of drones were putting out we wouldnt care. We'd just suicide swarm it to get rear armor. Isnt very many vehicles with AV12+ rear. And reminder, the max Piranha cost is 640pts if you dont take seekers - thats PLENTY of breathing room for anti vehicle support.

Infiltrating to counter the formation won't work - The piranhas start on the board turn 1 to release drones and enter reserves or fire seekers. That means your infiltrators will be blocked by the piranhas, not the other way around. And indeed, as skimmers they can move over the opposition.

Now, I certainly agree that Gun Drones are far, far from game breaking. However, I do feel people might underestimate what damage they can do in the numbers we're talking about. With a Drone Net each drone puts out 2 pinning S5ap5 shots at TL BS3. That's 15 S5ap5 hits per ten drones. Obviously they are short ranged at 18", but consider how they are deployed: The piranhas enter anywhere along your board edge, 6" in. The drones then disembark 6", meaning anything within 30" of the Tau board edge can be targeted the same turn as the drones are spawned. Being jet pack infantry, they then move an average 7" in the assault phase. Combined with their next movement phase, the drones can now be ~23" down the table in their second shooting phase, ~30" in the following assault phase.

And I wouldn't call the drones easy to kill either. They're not tough, but it's still T4 4+, and every round the drones absorb is one less hurting the rest of the tau army. Also consider their ability to JSJ into cover as required.

 Kriswall wrote:

True, but tying up over a third of your army to generate Drones isn't exactly a take all comers list either. Gun Drones aren't exactly a take all comers kind of unit. As has been said before, AV12 is an absolute hard counter against Gun Drones. Any vehicle with decent armour can flat out ignore them.

Consider this before you decide it's not a take-all comers list: 640 points for 16 Piranhas, and 224 for 4x4 marker drones in a drone net. For 864 points, the list now gets: 16 BS3 marker lights on JSJ platforms that can Splitfire, Jink and have Interceptor. On top of that, each turn, you add 64 BS3 TL S5ap5 shots to your force. Let's say that you only get two shooting phases with two waves to be very conservative - We're still talking 256 S5ap5 shots, 192 hits. That's 128 dead Orks, 42 dead MEQ, 21 dead TEQ, five dead carnifexes, two dead riptides or one dead Wraithknight.

That's all for 640 points if we get minimum efficiency from the drones, without accounting for marker lights. If three waves get three shooting phases those numbers more than double.

Now, you're entriely correct that AV12+ is the bane of Gun Drones. However, we have 986 points left to spend before we have an 1850 points army. Considering how efficiently you can get Fusion Blasters in a Farsight CAD, armour isn't the issue you're making it out to be. Heck, if you bring the seeker spam version, you got your answer right there!

 Vector Strike wrote:
The Drone factory is more annoying to the enemy, but Seeker Festival is closer to my taste on Piranhas. And I don't have that many drones anyway

You can always get a bunch of bottle caps and flying stands to make your own. Soda caps for a tougher shield drone look, and beer caps for more aggressive gun drone.

 Nilok wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
The Drone factory is more annoying to the enemy, but Seeker Festival is closer to my taste on Piranhas. And I don't have that many drones anyway

You can always get a bunch of bottle caps and flying stands to make your own. Soda caps for a tougher shield drone look, and beer caps for more aggressive gun drone.

I'm always up for "rule of cool" conversions, but there is no way I'm playing against a bottle cap army. One has to draw a line somewhere. You want to play the tactic, pay for the models.

If I've mistaken joking comments for serious comments, I apologize.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Nilok wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
The Drone factory is more annoying to the enemy, but Seeker Festival is closer to my taste on Piranhas. And I don't have that many drones anyway

You can always get a bunch of bottle caps and flying stands to make your own. Soda caps for a tougher shield drone look, and beer caps for more aggressive gun drone.

I'm always up for "rule of cool" conversions, but there is no way I'm playing against a bottle cap army. One has to draw a line somewhere. You want to play the tactic, pay for the models.

If I've mistaken joking comments for serious comments, I apologize.

I was serious, but in no way did I mean you stop at just gluing bottle caps onto flying bases. You can use bits from pathfinders for the carbines, the bottle caps for the ridged, angular body, and foam/green stuff and other bits for surface and engine details.

I can definitely understand wanting your opponent to have the actual models when going to a tournament with this, or playing this list too much at your FLGS (unless the opponent requests it), but scratch building has long been a part of this hobby and I don't feel that you should be forced to pay to play a specific tactic if you are creative enough.

Maybe it's because my FLGS was really open to 100% scratch built models as the Dark Angel and IG/Ork players had really awesome large scratch built army, even helping the Ork player build three awesome scratch built Stompas.

Ah...

Cool. In that case, might I recommend these?

http://www.lowes.com/pd_81617-261-19010___?productId=3659950&pl=1&Ntt=wood+button

They're about perfect in terms of shape and size. Glue on a couple of lenses around the perimeter, an antenna on the top and some guns on the bottom... boom. Gun Drone. Painted well and they barely stand out.

 Kriswall wrote:
Ah...

Cool. In that case, might I recommend these?

http://www.lowes.com/pd_81617-261-19010___?productId=3659950&pl=1&Ntt=wood+button

They're about perfect in terms of shape and size. Glue on a couple of lenses around the perimeter, an antenna on the top and some guns on the bottom... boom. Gun Drone. Painted well and they barely stand out.

Ooo, i like that idea.

I need to kitbash a bunch of marker drones still, since i literally only have 5 that arent Gun Drone proxies lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Ah...

Cool. In that case, might I recommend these?

http://www.lowes.com/pd_81617-261-19010___?productId=3659950&pl=1&Ntt=wood+button

They're about perfect in terms of shape and size. Glue on a couple of lenses around the perimeter, an antenna on the top and some guns on the bottom... boom. Gun Drone. Painted well and they barely stand out.

Ooo, i like that idea.

I need to kitbash a bunch of marker drones still, since i literally only have 5 that arent Gun Drone proxies lol

They make different sizes. The one inch ones work well for Drone replacements. I sometimes use the smallest ones to dress up bases and models. I use them as little swarms of mini-Drones. I have a couple of XV8s where the suit has no weapons. The "hardpoints" are ll little floating mini-drones that can hold one weapon each attached to various parts of the model and base.

That's a great method for converting drones!

So, assuming 1850 Points, one full firestream at 640pts and 4x4 marker drones at 224, what would you add with the remaining 986 points?

TompiQ wrote:
That's a great method for converting drones!

So, assuming 1850 Points, one full firestream at 640pts and 4x4 marker drones at 224, what would you add with the remaining 986 points?

probably a CAD, or hunter cadre if taking DBC.

Bring a riptide to taste, a unit of fusion suits... you really dont need any mass shooting if your cranking out s5 drones... so I would focus on low ap. Plasma teams, Ion riptides, maybe breachers if you like fielding troops


Automatically Appended Next Post:


And definitely some markerlights! you want those for when you decide to "block out the sun" with your seeker missles in one turn.

TompiQ wrote:
That's a great method for converting drones!

So, assuming 1850 Points, one full firestream at 640pts and 4x4 marker drones at 224, what would you add with the remaining 986 points?

A well stocked Retaliation Cadre.

SJ

Massed Kroot! Waves of Drones swarming in from your table edge with Waves of Kroot swarming in from the sides. Bury your enemies in wave after wave of Tau Empire cannon fodder!

Joking, but tell me this wouldn't be hilarious. 986 points gives you 15 units of 10 Kroot/1 Kroothound (for the Acute Senses). Outflank the lot and just watch as you have multiple units walk on every turn.

TompiQ wrote:
That's a great method for converting drones!

So, assuming 1850 Points, one full firestream at 640pts and 4x4 marker drones at 224, what would you add with the remaining 986 points?

Riptide Wing

Riptide Team (3)
Riptide
-Ion Accelerator
-EWO
Riptide
-Ion Accelerator
-EWO
-Target Lock
Riptide
-Ion Accelerator
-EWO
-Target Lock

Riptide Team (1)
Riptide
-Heavy Burst Cannon
-Velocity Tracker
-Advanced Targeting Array

Riptide Team (1)
Riptide
-Heavy Burst Cannon
-Velocity Tracker
-Advanced Targeting Array

986 on the dot.

But will this list with 3 formations work and most importantly, Will it be a competitive list?

It's not going to be that great of an army since it needs to hug a table side.