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 Sigvatr wrote:
Not sure what you expected to happen other than that. After some horribly, horribly led socialist years that caused huge problems in the country itself and drastically weakened the economy /and/ the islamistic terrorist attacks, this was bound to happen.

Well between Mitterand and Hollande there were Chirac and Sarkozy, and it is general agreement that Chirac in particular fethed up. Not saying that Hollande was not a loser, generally speaking, and Sarkozy not a practical joke played on the French but credit where credit is due.

But I understand you need simple messages, and your message must be "socialists are bad", Siggi. So yes, of course everything and her mother is the socialists' fault.





BTW, Nice avatar!

I'll keep it short to avoid overburdening you with complicated info, but economical changes tend to go into effect quite some time after they were made. France, under the socialist government, took a few of downright terrible decisions that satisfy the lower class voters, but will result in long-term loss of economic productivity...which is a problem because there /need/ to be more economically strong countries in the EU. Most EU countries are solely dependant on Germany and even its star is starting to dim. You cannot create political balance by having a political union mostly reliant on a single country.

What other countries do not realize is that once TTIP is through, they get a /huge/ problem as long-term trade relations with the US become much more attractive.

 godardc wrote:

So, any reaction ? Do you think the next French President(2017) will be a Front National one ?

It's a possibility if more attacks and deaths occur. I foresee a more of a compromising right-wing politician taking the popular votes rather than extreme one. Still, that's a move to a 'right wing' view. I have no idea how Frances's elections work so take that with a once of salt.

I've been wondering how things can keep going on like the are before Europe, says enough. I really can't see why Germany's politicians side with refugees over the safety of their own people. Its seriously nuts over there. Of course, we naïve citizens can't handle the truth so things are being played down here in the US because anything otherwise doesn't fit the media or government agenda.

There are similar parallels playing out here in the US. Your called a bigot and a racist if you don't support Muslim refugee relocation. Not sure why its like this anymore we're but we're being taught to be PC for the sake of being PC and big brother government will protect us from harm. I just see the potential danger and wonder is it worth 10, 20, 100 or 1000 deaths of our citizens. I live far from harm, being very rural. So I have very little fear of what's going on; real or perceived. I just think that should the worst happen would others lives be worth the risk. Left wing say yes. Right wing says no. How about their friends or family? who will take responsibility? surely the President would....doubtful.

San Bernardino is apparently being twisted into work place violence and a call for gun regulation. Mostly to deflect from the truth of the matter. I guess calling terrorism something incorrect like, Isolated incident or cultural misunderstanding, will help people feel safe. Surely, the loved ones of the fallen will feel comfort in that, right?

I can accept the label of racist and even coward, if it means I'm more concerned for my countrymen than some refugee. After all I'd rather be wrong and error on the side of caution than see one person die from terrorism on their home soil, even French and Germans.

Your called a bigot and a racist if you don't support Muslim refugee relocation.

And this is why FN is so high.
The gooders called so many people racist so many times, they banalized it.
People can stand being told what they are allowed to think anymore.

I don't think the FN will loose momentum, because they are becoming more and more populareach year for a decade now.
This is not something new, but I agree the illegal aliens crisis made it easier for the FN.

The fact is, it is not in their official speechs, but Jean-Marie LePen, the founder, is a well-known anti semite (or at least, is viewed as one) and some random guys says bad things sometimes.

To give an idea, Marion-Marechal LePen (the beautiful young woman I used as an avatar ! ) said: "Musilm people can be French only, and only, on condition. The condition to respect and follow 16 century of Christianity..." etc etc.
Some think this is racist, some don't think so.

There is such a HUGE bashing everyday here in France, I don't knowif it is / it was / the same in your country for a party ?
Every artist, tv presenter, even newspapers give up profesional conduct to bash the FN^^

I just heard Germany will dissolute their own "FN" ? Is that true ? Just when the FN is about to lead and maybe prove they can rule correctly, Germany ensures it can never happens ... Such a disgusting and anti democratic decision...

What do you guys propose should be done with refugees fleeing ISIS genocide?

Send them back?

Apparently the only help we can offer is the kind that explodes and kills everyone nearby.

 Da Boss wrote:
What do you guys propose should be done with refugees fleeing ISIS genocide?

Send them back?

Apparently the only help we can offer is the kind that explodes and kills everyone nearby.

Provide more support for them. Honestly, it may just be time to start supporting Assad as much as it pains me to say it. His government is the only power in Syria that is "stable", relatively speaking. Our best bet would be to work with Russia, working to unite the "good" rebels, with the Syrian government, and then stomping out ISIS and the "bad" rebels behind a coordinated front.

This would hopefully enable a speedier resolution, and ensure there is a government in place to handle the refugees needs.

We... and when I say *we*, I mean more than one country.

This is like Bosnia of the 90's... the U.N. need to get involved.

Also, collectively, does Syria as a country still exist?

Does Iraq??

 whembly wrote:
We... and when I say *we*, I mean more than one country.

This is like Bosnia of the 90's... the U.N. need to get involved.

Also, collectively, does Syria as a country still exist?

Does Iraq??

Iraq ? Yep, definitely. Syria, I'm not sure.

Does Libya still exist ?

Maybe, they should fight for their country ?
I mean, there are about 30-50k terrorist, fighting 2 country.
Two country with MILLIONS of people.
It looks like a GW Space Marine battle when a squad conquers a planet...
How can 30k conquers tens of millions of people ?!
Did you see the migrants ? All youngs, mainly mens.
ISIS is just an excuse for them to come here and have more money.
I never liked Nasser (for example) but he tried to develop Egypt.
He didn't say: let's go to Europe to have more money !

Ok I know it is war, that's horrible and maybe if I were at war I would just cry.
But it can't be true for ALL OF THEM.

They choose to leave their country occupied, they don't deserve a good life.

And absolutely not a good life at my expense.

Assad is a murderous scumbag, but he's less of a murderous scumbag than ISIS. But defeating ISIS will probably not end the civil war in any kind of acceptable fashion.

I agree (beatnik pacifist scum that I am) that we need to do more to stop the war.
Send in troops.
Economic sanctions for Turkey, Saudi, and any other Gulf states that have large numbers of private citizens supporting ISIS.
UN supervision of the government.
AND take care of the refugees from the crisis like human friggin' beings.

We've got a bunch of Syrian refugees that come around to my school to learn English. Really nice, normal people, wouldn't look out of place in any supermarket. How we can shut the door to them is beyond me, given the situation. I read a story the other day about a family who went back to Syria from Turkey because they heard ISIS was not in their home region any more.

Their village got bombed by the Russians for not being supportive of Assad, and their five year old daughter and the nephew who tried to shield her with his body was killed.

godardc: You have no fething idea, do you? Which side should they fight for? Assad, who was brutalising them and denying them freedoms before, or one of the various rag tag militias fighting him and ISIS? Or ISIS?

I see the migrants - and they were a mix of middle aged people, kids, and yeah, young people. You know, people.

 godardc wrote:
Maybe, they should fight for their country ?
I mean, there are about 30-50k terrorist, fighting 2 country.
Two country with MILLIONS of people.
It looks like a GW Space Marine battle when a squad conquers a planet...
How can 30k conquers tens of millions of people ?!
Did you see the migrants ? All youngs, mainly mens.
ISIS is just an excuse for them to come here and have more money.
I never liked Nasser (for example) but he tried to develop Egypt.
He didn't say: let's go to Europe to have more money !

Ok I know it is war, that's horrible and maybe if I were at war I would just cry.
But it can't be true for ALL OF THEM.

They choose to leave their country occupied, they don't deserve a good life.

And absolutely not a good life at my expense.

We'll see what you do next time France is directly threatened ?
Me ? I'll be abroad trying to live a normal life. Am I a coward ? Yep.

It's easy to say when you don't have several hundred guys with weapons marching through your town godardc.

These "millions" of people aren't there in one location. Daish is hitting town after town, using overwhelming force to conquer small areas in a rapid fashion.

It forces these thousands to flee with little more then the clothes on their backs, trying to stay one step ahead of the bad guys, never getting time to stop and organize.

This isn't something that is just centralized to the Middle East either.

http://ww2today.com/16th-june-1940-civilians-continue-to-flee-the-war

Hey, I said "if I were at war I would just cry".
I was pointing that in two country, there must be some courageous people...
Look at the kurdish !
The solution is not to take everyone here.
If you throw millions of poor people in a country, the country will impoverish, and everyone will be poor.
Imagine, when the Peace will be here again on Syria and Iraqi: where will be all their engineers, their doctors, etc...
In Europe.
Because their elites will stay in Europe, for the most.
If you let them come in, it is bad for Europe AND bad for them.

Don't let your emotions take on your rationality.

The migrants are mostly young men, but there is also older people and entire families with kids (and they are right here in my town)
They are not fleeing anymore though. Sure, most of them fled Syria for either ISIS, one of the so-called "moderate" groups or Assad's soldiers. But virtually all of them fled to Turkey. Turkey is safe. Their going from Turkey to Europe is not fleeing anymore, it is simply hope for a better life, which is an illusion. The refugees come here thinking there will be houses, jobs and lots of money for them. The truth is that they simply are sent to refugee centers (or given the current crisis and lack of space, emergency shelters in gyms, schools, hotels or abandoned buildings) just like in Turkey.

This, exaclty what Captain Putin said.
There are others counties closest than France, Germany and England (and not as cold^^ )

Turkey's capacity to deal with all of these refugees is simply not there.

The conditions in Turkey are not tenable.

I agree that the situation is far from ideal - emigration is devastating for the countries afflicted (I'm Irish, we know all about it).

But we've got to deal with the situation as is.

 Da Boss wrote:
Turkey's capacity to deal with all of these refugees is simply not there.

The conditions in Turkey are not tenable.

I agree that the situation is far from ideal - emigration is devastating for the countries afflicted (I'm Irish, we know all about it).

But we've got to deal with the situation as is.

Wouldn't dealing with the situation as is be more about fixing the source of the problem instead of dealing with the results of the situation, while the situation keeps on going? Not only is immigration bad for the countries, it's also bad as a fix even short term and gets worse long term.

If this is the current way of dealing with immigrants/refugees then it's easy to see why people are starting to vote for people who might actually do something about it over simply picking up the crap without removing the source of the crap.

Regardless, if you support the refugees would it not be better to support a safer method of extraction, at the moment their journeys are pretty bad with bodies being found etc. It seems like the current solution is "we will help those who survive the journey". Imagine a firefighter doing that, waiting for those in danger to escape the burning house THEN helping them. It's not really helping them, it's just helping the fortunate bunch who had the resources or luck to get there. It also does nothing to save the burning house.

 Da Boss wrote:
Turkey's capacity to deal with all of these refugees is simply not there.

The conditions in Turkey are not tenable.

I agree that the situation is far from ideal - emigration is devastating for the countries afflicted (I'm Irish, we know all about it).

But we've got to deal with the situation as is.

Maybe it is different in Germany, but the Netherlands doesn't have the capacity either. They have been stuffing refugees in the weirdest of places all over the country because refugee camps simply are not large enough.

 Da Boss wrote:


But we've got to deal with the situation as is.

No, "we" don't have to. It's the decision made by individual governments and they did not "have to" make those decisions.

In the end, I will be laughing my buttocks off in a notsolong time, when most Germans suddenly realize that #refugeeswelcome actually means #youpayforit. It already is extremely expensive and will be even more expensive. No tax cuts, in the contrary, you're looking at /way/ higher taxes. I'll enjoy the uproar. A lot.

Mon Cher Godardc,

J'ai pris le temps de parcourir l'ensemble de ce thread avant d'intervenir. J'avoue que je ne comprends pas bien ta démarche initiale à part vouloir faire la promotion du FN de façon faussement innocente :

"le FN a fait 30% qu'en pensez vous ? Est ce que vous pensez qu'on pourrait avoir un Président de la République FN ?"

Allons donc !!

Le FN n'a jamais progressé en France en raison de la justesse de ses idées ou de ses programmes : il a juste prospéré en raison du laxisme des autres partis politiques français qui ont chacun agité consciencieusement l'épouvantail qu'il représente afin de draguer des électeurs supplémentaires.

Le programme du FN ? Uniquement de la haine et la négation totale de l'autre que l'on habille avec le vernis de la laïcité ajoutées à la peur en reprenant des idées politico-racistes vieilles de 2 siècles.

Certes le FN a fait une sérieuse poussée aux élections régionales mais uniquement grâce aux abstentionnistes (1 abstentionniste sur 2, bravo !) et au contexte socio-politique actuel.

Depuis une cinquantaine d'années que le FN existe et que la famille Le Pen se plait à dénoncer les travers de la société française qui n'existent parfois que de façon putative, force est de constater qu'à l'opposé de leurs discours, ils n'ont jamais désiré le pouvoir sinon ils l'auraient déjà eu depuis longtemps et profitent du système.

Ils sont contre l'Europe ? Ils sont pourtant députés européens et profitent largement du train de vie qui va avec (indemnités tout ça...)... Ils ont même créé un groupe de travail avec d'autres partis politiques ouvertement racistes... Pour faire quoi ? Quels sont les travaux qu'ils ont publié à ce jour ?

Les Le Pen sont des patriotes proches du Peuple Français ? Pas compliqué d'être proches des "petits" quand on est millionnaires grâce aux ciments Lafarge entre autres.

Juste pour rappel, le FN n'est que l'héritier direct de mouvements politiques foncièrement racistes comme "jeune nation" et "ordre nouveau", des partis politiques qui se sont constitués à partir des cendres du IIIe Reich allemand et de la France de Vichy qui étaient encore chaudes.

Certes, les Le Pen ne sont pas les derniers des cons, certes ils ne disent pas que des conneries, certes tu as un avatar beaucoup plsu sexy que Marie Aubry mon cher Godardc mais le FN incarne tout sauf le renouveau et l'avenir de la France. C'est plutôt le contraire mais on le sait tous les deux.

Je ne te dénierai jamais le droit à la parole car j'ai toujours été partisan de la liberté d'expression et je l'utilise autant que je le peux... Mais le discours que tu tiens n'a absolument pas sa place sur un forum de figurines, même étranger (où les users ne sont pas forcément au fait de la situation exacte du FN) : aurais tu le courage de te pointer sur un forum français avec un tel avatar ? On connait tous les deux la réponse à cette question.

Rien de bon ne peut sortir de la haine et de la négation de l'autre. La Laïcité (la vraie, celle avec une majuscule) n'a jamais été d'imposer sa culture à l'autre mais de vivre ensemble en cherchant à les concilier... et ça a marché : à Jérusalem, avant que les croisés ne viennent y mettre le souk et tuer tout le monde au nom d'un Dieu qui a dû pas mal pleuré de voir les atrocités commises en Son Nom), il y avait eu un gouvernement tri-partite de chrétiens, de juifs et de musulmans qui vivait en parfaite harmonie... Ah oui et tant que j'y suis, les populations juives et musulmanes sont présentes en France depuis l'Antiquité où elles ont favorisé l'essor de celle-ci notamment grâce aux échanges commerciaux... Alors au temps pour "la France pays de race blanche" hein...

Nous ne sommes pas du même bord politique mon cher Godardc et ta tentative faussement naïve de faire la promotion du FN sur Dakka Dakka me donne la nausée. C'est dommage car en d'autres circonstances, nous aurions pu avoir des conversations beaucoup plus enrichissantes... d'autant plsu que tu peins très bien.

Serviteur,

Morikun

Sigvatr: Of course, you are also right. There will be a large economic cost to helping these people, and we will all pay for it. And there will likely be uproar from people who haven't thought that far ahead.

But when millions of people are displaced by war and disaster, it is not humane to turn your face away. If it costs, and it's difficult, them's the breaks. It sucks, and we will probably have problems stemming from these decisions for a long time, but the alternative is worse.

On "we should do more than just take refugees" I actually agree fully. I am normally anti-military intervention, and Syria is a goddamned vipers nest of factions and fanatics, but I think given that the major powers all agree and the UN has given the go ahead, we should take ISIS on, and leave a peace keeping force to stop Assad brutalizing his own people when we're done. That will also be expensive and difficult, but ISIS have to be fought. Lobbing a few bombs from aircraft won't cut it.

But I'll say again, they should be fought by every means we have - economic, military and social. Sanctions on Turkey and the Gulf states who support them are required. Taking care of displaced refugees and showing them that "the West" is not the monster some think it is, and unfortunately, putting soldiers in harms way is part of this.

It's hypocritical of me to want military action when I know I will not be required to fight, too. I know that. But I reckon this situation needs resolving, and we all have to share the cost.

 Morikun wrote:
Mon Cher Godardc,
(snip)

So, for those of you who can't read French, Morikun is basically writing directly to Godarc, and claiming he's promoting the FN under cover of "honest discussion", and breaking a few of the myths around the FN, like how easy it is to look like you care for blue-workers' interests, when you've inherited your money...
Having read the whole wall of text, I have to say his claims are very valid and his explanations well backed.

Morikun : Bien dit. C'est mieux formulé que tout ce que j'aurais pu écrire.

TF;DR (Too French;Didn't Read) : Well said.

 Da Boss wrote:
Sigvatr: Of course, you are also right. There will be a large economic cost to helping these people, and we will all pay for it. And there will likely be uproar from people who haven't thought that far ahead.

That's the important difference - it will not be all of us who pay for it. It will hit those the hardest that we actually need the most: the middle class and, apart from them, lower classes too. Statistically, single parents will be among the top suffering. In Germany, as a small company, small entrepreneur or middle-class worker, you very quickly end up paying roughly 50% taxes. I, for example, pay an effective tax rate of 15-20% because I, and others in the upper class, have the means to do so. Those refugees will cost billions, a lot of billions, over the year as most of them are highly unqualified, can, of course, not speak German and thus need governmental support, or not even speak English and thus be useless in regards to the working force. The middle class are the ones who will pay for them and it's not going to be pretty. The current government's policy of not having a policy will significantally weaken Germany's economy and thus the entire EU.

The smarter move, as usual, would have been to first force all states to take part in taking refugees and then act upon such a decree. Right now, it's chaos and even the public opinion starts to sway against the government's policy of "Oi, come everyone!", heavily fueling the right side of politics (European right) with the AfD now hovering around 11%, more than doubling in a short time.

As stated in another thread, the problem is that most people just react emotionally to it and are too short-sighted to see that taking more than 1.000.000 refugees might make you feel better in the short run, but will make you feel bad in the long run.

Anyway, as I said, I will enjoy it. Actually, I am already starting to profit from it as prices for housing started to rise quite remarkably and owning several of them...hah. Furthermore, the increased need for security highly satisfies our company and if worse comes to worst, we'll just bail and re-locate to the US.

So, for those of you who can't read French, Morikun is basically writing directly to Godarc, and claiming he's promoting the FN under cover of "honest discussion", and breaking a few of the myths around the FN, like how easy it is to look like you care for blue-workers' interests, when you've inherited your money...
Having read the whole wall of text, I have to say his claims are very valid and his explanations well backed.

Thank you very much my Dear Hudson.

I beg the pardon of those who can't read French. That's right I would like to re-focus the debate on an important point : the Front National (aka "FN") is NOT and will NOT be the ideal of the French Republic. I won't lie : we, in France, must face to a very strong politics crisis + social crisis because of the Daesh attacks of the november 13th. Peoples are affraid, peoples have the impression to be left on their own... BUT the FN is not and will NOT the answer.

Maybe you, foreigners, would not have a very good information about the FN on your media (for us, french, the KKK from USA, Forza Padania from Italy or the Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands from Germany for examples are just "some extremists groups" but the truth in details are more even dark) but FN is everything but fight for blue-workers interests.

The main credo of FN has always been "foreigners go home or get out and keep out" (except if you're white and christian). All politics partys in France use it to lauch fear on peoples to win several elections... But nothing, really nothing could grow on the fear, the hate and racism.

(And just for your information : if Godardc would come with his avatar on french fora, he perfectly knows that he would be banned in 5 sec. Would you wear "KKK" or "NPD" as an avatar ? I don't think so.)

Excuse me for my bad english please.

Morikun : Bien dit. C'est mieux formulé que tout ce que j'aurais pu écrire.

Merci mon Cher LethalShade.

Voir ce genre de topic s'étaler jusque dans un forum de figurine, c'est proprement écœurant... Surtout qu'avec son air faussement innocent, Godardc prend les étrangers pour des cons. J'espère qu'au 2e tour des élections régionales le peuple français va se réveiller !!

Habituellement je ne fais pas de politique... Mais là il ne faudrait pas déconner non plus : ou est "Je suis Charlie" ? Plus que jamais nous devons défendre notre devise : "Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité". Jamais les extrémismes ne parleront au nom de la France !

Serviteur,

Morikun

 Sigvatr wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Sigvatr: Of course, you are also right. There will be a large economic cost to helping these people, and we will all pay for it. And there will likely be uproar from people who haven't thought that far ahead.

That's the important difference - it will not be all of us who pay for it. It will hit those the hardest that we actually need the most: the middle class and, apart from them, lower classes too. Statistically, single parents will be among the top suffering. In Germany, as a small company, small entrepreneur or middle-class worker, you very quickly end up paying roughly 50% taxes. I, for example, pay an effective tax rate of 15-20% because I, and others in the upper class, have the means to do so. Those refugees will cost billions, a lot of billions, over the year as most of them are highly unqualified, can, of course, not speak German and thus need governmental support, or not even speak English and thus be useless in regards to the working force. The middle class are the ones who will pay for them and it's not going to be pretty. The current government's policy of not having a policy will significantally weaken Germany's economy and thus the entire EU.

The smarter move, as usual, would have been to first force all states to take part in taking refugees and then act upon such a decree. Right now, it's chaos and even the public opinion starts to sway against the government's policy of "Oi, come everyone!", heavily fueling the right side of politics (European right) with the AfD now hovering around 11%, more than doubling in a short time.

As stated in another thread, the problem is that most people just react emotionally to it and are too short-sighted to see that taking more than 1.000.000 refugees might make you feel better in the short run, but will make you feel bad in the long run.

Anyway, as I said, I will enjoy it. Actually, I am already starting to profit from it as prices for housing started to rise quite remarkably and owning several of them...hah. Furthermore, the increased need for security highly satisfies our company and if worse comes to worst, we'll just bail and re-locate to the US.

And once the refugees have been integrated and Keynesian economic effects have been included? Then what? You're talking up all the costs while completely ignoring the economic advantages.

 Da Boss wrote:
I agree (beatnik pacifist scum that I am) that we need to do more to stop the war.
Send in troops.

Whose troops?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
AND take care of the refugees from the crisis like human friggin' beings.

We are taking care of the refugees. We can send more food, supplies, medical assistance, etc. The only objection to Syrian refugees is that we do not have any soft of system to detect hostile infiltrators who have threatened to carry out terrorist attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
I agree that the situation is far from ideal - emigration is devastating for the countries afflicted (I'm Irish, we know all about it).

Thank you for taking up the mantle and speaking on behalf of the Irish community...

Morikun : You're exaggerating a bit. As much as I despise the Front National, I feel obligated to point out that they are not comparable to the KKK.

 Da Boss wrote:
What do you guys propose should be done with refugees fleeing ISIS genocide?

Send them back?

Apparently the only help we can offer is the kind that explodes and kills everyone nearby.

Yes, UN safe zone communities have been done before and successfully. However, we also must declare war on ISIS and frack them up so hard, they realize they should have never been born. They want the Wrath of God then give it to them, Reign fire on them. But, since we have a an apologist $uss$ for a president it'll never happen.

 LethalShade wrote:
Morikun : You're exaggerating a bit. As much as I despise the Front National, I feel obligated to point out that they are not comparable to the KKK.

Really ? Ok FN is not burning crosses but behind the varnish of the democratic debate, ideology is the same : hate, fear, homophobia... and Marine Le Pen is weel known to accept some of very violent guys that support national-socialism/white power... Despite the fact that she pretended to ban this way of thinking.

Some of the racial groups such "Le Bloc Identitaire" are not so different from the "white hoods" I mean... Even if the FN is not (officially) Le Bloc identitaire...

I don't reproach to Godardc his politics opinion but I don't agree the fact that he tries to disguise the truth.

Serviteur,

Morikun