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 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 mondo80 wrote:
2 wound assault terminators are bad? I know one guy who drives them around in a landraider.

The problem is that they have slow and purposeful (making them slow to footslog it up and cannot sweep advance, while gaining none of the benefits since they have no ranged weapons) and only come in units of 3 at max, making them waste space in a Land raider. Paladins, the only real equivallents in the game, at least come with psycannons and psychic powers backing that up.

He did have a chaos lord in the raider with them and they were able to assault out of it.

Who has a standard Land Raider actually live to T2 unless their opponent sucks?

Sigh. Weak.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who has a standard Land Raider actually live to T2 unless their opponent sucks?

Depends. My space wolf list would ignore this unit since my twc star isn't remotely afraid of it and I'd rather go after units that are more threatening.
My marines would carve it apart. Grav weapons would do that.
My Eldar, turn 1 or 2. Fire dragons would tear it apart and not be concerned about the unit inside overly much, being much faster. My whole army might ignore it since it's extremely fast while this thing lumbers around costing 400 points for a few lascannon shots.
Necrons would glance to death then send in wraiths for easy clean up. I may just ignore since at most it'd wipe one squad and the wraiths would destroy this unit.

Honestly a lot of my lists would ignore this unit since it's so slow and requires cc to perform well. I'd rather go after actual threats. If they advance as a wall I'd target with superior firepower or attempt to outflank.
If I had to remove it however it wouldn't be a big deal for the power armies. Nids would struggle at removing the raider by T2 but they have bad anti tank at ranged. They are the only army I'm seeing having issues, and they aren't threatened by this unit either. Slow and melee don't work in 40k.

Short answer No.

Oh you wanna the long answer?, NNNNNNNNooooooooooooooooo.

Akiasura wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Who has a standard Land Raider actually live to T2 unless their opponent sucks?

Depends. My space wolf list would ignore this unit since my twc star isn't remotely afraid of it and I'd rather go after units that are more threatening.
My marines would carve it apart. Grav weapons would do that.
My Eldar, turn 1 or 2. Fire dragons would tear it apart and not be concerned about the unit inside overly much, being much faster. My whole army might ignore it since it's extremely fast while this thing lumbers around costing 400 points for a few lascannon shots.
Necrons would glance to death then send in wraiths for easy clean up. I may just ignore since at most it'd wipe one squad and the wraiths would destroy this unit.

Honestly a lot of my lists would ignore this unit since it's so slow and requires cc to perform well. I'd rather go after actual threats. If they advance as a wall I'd target with superior firepower or attempt to outflank.
If I had to remove it however it wouldn't be a big deal for the power armies. Nids would struggle at removing the raider by T2 but they have bad anti tank at ranged. They are the only army I'm seeing having issues, and they aren't threatened by this unit either. Slow and melee don't work in 40k.

Ignore them and they attack. You can pretend like they wont reach anything. But they will, and they punch hard.

Don't ignore them and they soak your resources for me. This I like. I don't mind losing them if it costs you two or three hundred points to do... and it might. I dont mind losing them if you have to pour a ton of attacks into them in melee to be sure. It protects the other participants.

It's a no lose proposition for me. =)

Akiasura wrote:

 mondo80 wrote:
2 wound assault terminators are bad? I know one guy who drives them around in a landraider.

I know a guy who thought warp talons were the best unit in the game because claws.
Doesn't make them good.
Muties in a landraider is a very expensive unit that falls over against similar priced units from other dexes. At best it will manage to kill 2 units, more likely 1 or none, before being destroyed.

For people claiming Muties are good, I'd appreciate a battle report where they are used against a good force effectively or a tactica that holds up to scrutiny. Saying "I said so" doesn't carry much weight on an online forum.

I got ya, mate.
Chaos Marines vs. Eldar. Chaos wins. Mutilators show their value in turns 3 and 4.
This Mutilator review pretty much supports everything that you're saying, and even brings in some mathhammer to show how terrible Mutilators are, but it gives you a good strategy to use them for, at the end.
Here is a thread/tactica discussing different ways in which to deploy Mutilators effectively, and in a much more constructive manner, I might add. Among them is DSing three individual Mutis for maximum effect.
Fists vs. Chaos Marines. Turn 3 and 4 see the Muti wreck a Rhino when the nearby Tac Marines fail to eliminate it on the turn it deepstrikes in.
raven guard vs. Chaos Marines. Chaos gets wrecked, but I'd like to point out how a single Mutilator drew the fire of a Tac Squad and a Rapier - a total of 190 pts. worth of shooting to take out a 55 pts. model. How delicious. A Mutilator proceeds to drive the Rapier Crew off the Board (55 pt. Unit rendering a 120-pt. Unit absolutely useless). Another Muti gets destroyed by a 100 pt. Thunderfire. Notice how the Mutis are drawing fire from higher-point Units the entire match.

Those are local gakky games. I see Warp Talons kill an Assault Terminator squad once and you don't see anyone praising them. We're using math and what's competitive and what's logical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also one of those comes from Jancoran's blog, which has been shown to be terrible in different threads.

[quote=Slayer-Fan123 674138 8340274 null
Also one of those comes from Jancoran's blog, which has been shown to be terrible in different threads.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Those are local gakky games. I see Warp Talons kill an Assault Terminator squad once and you don't see anyone praising them. We're using math and what's competitive and what's logical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also one of those comes from Jancoran's blog, which has been shown to be terrible in different threads.

Such negativity, SMH. Here's a few more, then.
http://www.mobswell.net/streaming/TvVyvouo6Ww/warhammer-40k-chaos-space-marine-mutilator-tactics.html Runs through a few viable ways of running mutis.
This guy explains a great use for Mutilators
4Chan supports the strategy that has been espoused on virtually every link that I've given, as well.
This battle report has Mutilators wrecking face, due to the fact that the opponent chose to shoot at juicier targets and payed the price for it.
Honestly, at this point, I'm sick of looking up battle reports and tacticas, but I think that I've proven my point. Concede defeat, and move on. Nobody likes a stubborn negative nancy who has been proven wrong by 10 sources and brings no sources of her own to support her claim.

 dusara217 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Those are local gakky games. I see Warp Talons kill an Assault Terminator squad once and you don't see anyone praising them. We're using math and what's competitive and what's logical.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also one of those comes from Jancoran's blog, which has been shown to be terrible in different threads.

Such negativity, SMH. Here's a few more, then.
http://www.mobswell.net/streaming/TvVyvouo6Ww/warhammer-40k-chaos-space-marine-mutilator-tactics.html Runs through a few viable ways of running mutis.
This guy explains a great use for Mutilators
4Chan supports the strategy that has been espoused on virtually every link that I've given, as well.
This battle report has Mutilators wrecking face, due to the fact that the opponent chose to shoot at juicier targets and payed the price for it.
Honestly, at this point, I'm sick of looking up battle reports and tacticas, but I think that I've proven my point. Concede defeat, and move on. Nobody likes a stubborn negative nancy who has been proven wrong by 10 sources and brings no sources of her own to support her claim.

A stubborn negative nancy brings an undeniable prove. "The army i play sux".

 dusara217 wrote:

Akiasura wrote:

 mondo80 wrote:
2 wound assault terminators are bad? I know one guy who drives them around in a landraider.

I know a guy who thought warp talons were the best unit in the game because claws.
Doesn't make them good.
Muties in a landraider is a very expensive unit that falls over against similar priced units from other dexes. At best it will manage to kill 2 units, more likely 1 or none, before being destroyed.

For people claiming Muties are good, I'd appreciate a battle report where they are used against a good force effectively or a tactica that holds up to scrutiny. Saying "I said so" doesn't carry much weight on an online forum.

I got ya, mate.
Chaos Marines vs. Eldar. Chaos wins. Mutilators show their value in turns 3 and 4.

Old dex, I've already seen this battle report. This is the one where the guy takes a very sub par list and forgets to deploy a Wave serpent.
I'm quite aware of Jancorans blog. I've been asking him for recent battle reports to back up his claims for a while now, much to my dismay

 dusara217 wrote:

This Mutilator review pretty much supports everything that you're saying, and even brings in some mathhammer to show how terrible Mutilators are, but it gives you a good strategy to use them for, at the end.

Good read, nothing new though

 dusara217 wrote:

Here is a thread/tactica discussing different ways in which to deploy Mutilators effectively, and in a much more constructive manner, I might add. Among them is DSing three individual Mutis for maximum effect.
Fists vs. Chaos Marines. Turn 3 and 4 see the Muti wreck a Rhino when the nearby Tac Marines fail to eliminate it on the turn it deepstrikes in.

An old game, and the marine list is terrible. It has 30+ tactical marines

 dusara217 wrote:

raven guard vs. Chaos Marines. Chaos gets wrecked, but I'd like to point out how a single Mutilator drew the fire of a Tac Squad and a Rapier - a total of 190 pts. worth of shooting to take out a 55 pts. model. How delicious. A Mutilator proceeds to drive the Rapier Crew off the Board (55 pt. Unit rendering a 120-pt. Unit absolutely useless). Another Muti gets destroyed by a 100 pt. Thunderfire. Notice how the Mutis are drawing fire from higher-point Units the entire match.

The only good battle report that was posted, so thank you for that.
A few things
1) Were the mutilators deployed as a group? They all arrived turn 2 and I can't find them in the photos.
2) 190 points to kill a 55 pt model isn't great, but it's not terrible. It's 1/3 of their point cost, which is the cusp of being worth shooting at.
3) The mutilator destroyed the rapier crew AFTER the crew was roasted by a drake. So...they dedicated more points than the unit was worth by a bit.
4) I see no mention of the mutilator killing a thunderfire. The thunderfire is still operating on the last turn, when does this happen?
5) The only other time the mutilator was fired upon was by the techmarine, which destroyed it.

To me, if a unit can kill 1/3 of it's points in a turn, that's about average. 1/2 is great, but not even the bikes manage to kill their point cost every turn without support. 1/4 and lower is where it gets bad. So in this report, the mutilator managed to barely succeed once, and this is the only relevant report you posted. For the rest of the game, there is no mention of them doing anything, and this was not a powerful list.

In the future, if someone is asking for battle reports against the power armies (Space Marines, Eldar, Tau, Necron) posting old battle reports doesn't do much to help your argument. It makes it seem like, since these armies have released, mutilators have completely fallen off the game (or maybe chaos has?). Competitive army lists (For eldar, this would mean bikes, aspect warriors, WK, and not guardians from a previous edition; Space marines bikes and cents, not 30+ tacticals or vanguard; Necrons decurion; Tau suits and tides). That's what I have been asking for the entire time, from anyone, and so far no one has delivered. I'm a professor by trade, if someone is able to provide evidence that I'm wrong I'll happily switch opinions. I own a huge chaos army and would love to field mutilators, but in my meta only the better armies get played. I won't be going up against 30 tacticals or a dread mob sadly
Out of your 10 sources, 1 battle report is against a modern codex I believe, and the list isn't what I would consider competitive, and the mutilators didn't accomplish what you are claiming. I probably should have spelled out what competitive consists of so that's my mistake.
Appreciate the reports though!



@ Jancoran
You can't just claim a unit will reach everything. Provide proof, in the form of a battle report against the modern eldar army and how mutilators perform.
Or a report against modern marines featuring bikes and cents.
Or modern Wolves featuring a TWC star.
Or modern decurion.

Because an entire army that can run extremely fast, has the fastest choices in the game (jet bikes, hawks, warp spiders, wave serpents, WK) isn't easy to catch when you are using one of the slowest units in the game that must reach melee.

It might cost 200-300 points for the weaker armies, but as was shown (using you know...math) for most armies it's a 140-150 point investment. It's not bad, it's right on the cusp of being worth firing at and if chaos had more viable threats they'd be a lot better. As it is, they really need more accurate deepstrike and speed to be worth using. The battle report posted shows that, at no point, was it a 200-300 point investment to remove the mutilator.

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know. Even BA have grav bikers. Orks outfight them. DE are too fast. Lower tier lists are lower tier because they have no answers for triple digit S6 shots from 36" away. We have answers for slow assault units that deep strike and happen to be T5 2+. In fact, I can consistently put the hammer down on GK because they volunteer themselves to get shot in the face by grav and melta.

You're still missing it. You're still trying to go by "What can do more". thats not the point of the mutilator here. And last time I checked, no one is fast enough to break through the "box" created by Chaos Raptors and Rhinos, Mutilators and Obliterators. No one. Talking about ti doesnt make it so. If someone tries null deploying it, the army can just center up and wait. You're talking about 9-12 units forming a box. No matter how "good" this stuff you're mentioning is, its STILL stuck and STILL cant kill all it needs to kill. The Mutilators are as likely to survive and do damage from target priority as they are anything else.

I am not suggesting the Mutilators are the second coming or aren't outclassed by "better" units in some form or fashion. What I'm telling you is that the only reason the Mutilators WNT get their chance is if the enemy simply prioritizes them. And i hope they do.

It's really hard to box in BA or DE. Orks will love you for getting so close. Again, these lists have the tools to deal with your CSM box in. I really don't see why you think trying to outmaneuver BA is going to end well.

Do you guyz have batreps where mutilators perform poorly?

 koooaei wrote:
Do you guyz have batreps where mutilators perform poorly?

I haven't seen CSM in months. So, no. Do you need a batrep to see where this is not a good unit against BA? It's not good for the same reason that GK aren't particularly good vs BA.

 koooaei wrote:
Do you guyz have batreps where mutilators perform poorly?

Isn't this the same as the teacup argument?

Funny thing is, if they could get a 3+ invul save, they might actually be considered one of the more powerful units in the game (being essentially Hammernators with +1 wound and chainfists). Currently the best they can do is a 4+ invul save.

With a 3++ they'd be only mediocre, because having to switch weapons and being SaP.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Do you guyz have batreps where mutilators perform poorly?

Isn't this the same as the teacup argument?

No its clearly not a celestial teapot argument. All you need is a battle report where the mutilator do nothing useful and are destroyed. A celestial teapot argument is an argument impossible to demonstrate due to its techincal impossibility. This is clearly not the case and so far seem to have failed to provide a battle rep in which they are atrocious. What you are doing is called moving the goal post. You challenged someone to bring you battle reports and they did. You challenged them to bring you a tactic and use for them and they did. They even brought proof that those tactics work in the real world with real paper. Do they claim they are killer units? No they are not, but aren't nearly as bad as the craptastic unit you make them. Your tactical orthodoxy seem to blind you to different uses and stratagem. One man's trash is another man treasure...

We are reading very different reports if you thought they worked as advertised. Drawing 190 points worth of gunfire all game and removing one wounded cheap unit off the board is pretty useless, and is what I would expect. And the marine list was extremely subpar.

I get a little annoyed with batreps that use lists and units that no one would actually consider deploying for real.

It doesn't annoy me, every meta is different and I wouldn't mind mine being more casual, but they can't be used as proof of efficacy. Especially when the unit in question didn't accomplish much.

I like it when people use less-than-optimal units for fun. You get to see things like Warp Talons jumping about - makes it more interesting just from a variety point of view.

That can be done, if you have limitless cash to spend on w40k. Can't see how it could be otherwise. Well maybe if someone plays in a place where everything can be counts as with everything, and you can just take 10 cultists to represent 10 warp talons. Even if the size of models is wrong.


2k point games vs super bad lists are hardly an argument in favor of using mutilators. When was the last time a tournament wining chaos list run those. ?

In Jancoran's CAAC locals of course, where he TRULY shows his unorthodox Tactics against the bad AND the mediocre!

Makumba wrote:
That can be done, if you have limitless cash to spend on w40k. Can't see how it could be otherwise. Well maybe if someone plays in a place where everything can be counts as with everything, and you can just take 10 cultists to represent 10 warp talons. Even if the size of models is wrong.


2k point games vs super bad lists are hardly an argument in favor of using mutilators. When was the last time a tournament wining chaos list run those. ?

I'm assuming you're replying to me as you mention warp talons after I did? I don't know why you would need limitless cash to play with non-optimal models. I have some warp talons I made before I found out they weren't super-awesome. I wasn't even arguing to use mutilations, I just said I like it when I see different stuff in general - are you saying I'm wrong for liking something?

Martel732 wrote:

It's really hard to box in BA or DE. Orks will love you for getting so close. Again, these lists have the tools to deal with your CSM box in. I really don't see why you think trying to outmaneuver BA is going to end well.

Orks dont' love me for getting close.

Outmaneuvering Blood Angels is harder. I agree. But then you don't have to really do that. If Blood angels won't engage and play to their strongest suit, what am I worried about? Blood Angel shooting? I feel like I am pretty well equipped to meet Blood angels on their terms. Dante is a beast and I do respect the hell out of him. He's immune to my best trick for removing him so of course deserves my respect. That really is no statement on Mutilators though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 koooaei wrote:
Do you guyz have batreps where mutilators perform poorly?

I haven't seen 'em. So we should question it. Lol. Hilarious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
In Jancoran's CAAC locals of course, where he TRULY shows his unorthodox Tactics against the bad AND the mediocre!

Prove it. Go play all the people I play and come back then. Until then, save it.

They are a bad unit in a bad codex. Do they have no use. No, but we need to accept two versions of 40k, one were people take fun fluffy and cool units in their army, and one where people crunch numbers to divine the best units and ignore the rest.

Can Chaos Marine beat other armies, yes. Do they reliably win major tournaments, not to my knowledge.

 koooaei wrote:
Do you guyz have batreps where mutilators perform poorly?

Tbh, I am unable to find any batreps that are recent where mutilators are included at all. You see the usual suspects of course, though chaos has very little bat reps to chose from as is.
It seems no side is able to provide batreps that illustrate their point, beyond the one where they charge a damaged 120 point squad and fail to accomplish anything else, despite the claims that were...exaggerated.