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You seriously don't understand the concept that a codex special rule overrides a rulebook general rule?

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You seriously don't understand the concept that a codex special rule overrides a rulebook general rule?

SJ

Is there any contradiction between Skies of Fury rule and "models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer"?
Can't Stormraven move more than 6" while Hovering?

txdyz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You seriously don't understand the concept that a codex special rule overrides a rulebook general rule?

SJ

Is there any contradiction between Skies of Fury rule and "models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer"?
Can't Stormraven move more than 6" while Hovering?

Can you state a difference within the rules between moving more than 6" in hover versus zooming? Can you demonstrate how a specific permission to disembark if the transport moves over 6" in a turn does not occur if the transport zooms? Have you bother to read the rules in question at all before arguing them?

SJ

The rules for zooming states that passengers cannot embark or disembark, removing the restriction on movement does not remove the restriction inherent in the zooming mode as the zooming restriction is separate from the movement restriction.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

txdyz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
You seriously don't understand the concept that a codex special rule overrides a rulebook general rule?

SJ

Is there any contradiction between Skies of Fury rule and "models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer"?
Can't Stormraven move more than 6" while Hovering?

Can you state a difference within the rules between moving more than 6" in hover versus zooming? Can you demonstrate how a specific permission to disembark if the transport moves over 6" in a turn does not occur if the transport zooms? Have you bother to read the rules in question at all before arguing them?

SJ

Yes; you can move anywhere between 6" and 12" while hovering.

If you did not move at least 18" in a zooming flyer you crash.

Ghaz asked earlier in the thread what the definition of a zooming flyer is: that would be any flyer that is not in hover mode: it must then be zooming(that is the only other option); and must move at least 18".

Flyers zoom by default; if a flyer has hover, it may choose to enter hover mode.

Zooming is specifically restricted, skys and grav chute do not remove that restriction.



That said I have always plaued with the house rule that they can, but that is explicitly known as a house rule.

I'm with Jeffersonian here... you guys can rules lawyer all you want, but it seems pretty clear to me that the codex rule doesn't care if you are zooming or hovering. If the stormraven moves more than 6 inches you can disembark via Skies of Fury... and I know you guys are arguing the RAW, but the intent behind Skies of Fury or a Grav Chute Insertion seems pretty clear to me (and not game breaking in any sense). As they say so often to me in pharmacy school... use your professional judgement if you feel something is unclear.

Its not a houserule, its RAW that Skies of Fury and Grav Chute Insertion allow passengers to disembark while zooming. Both of those rules are specific exceptions to the general restriction that units cannot embark nor disembark while the transport is zooming. Neither rule has language requiring the transport to be hoving. Both rules are codex rules, and codex rules have permission to override rulebook rules in the rulebook! Why is this even being argued?

Per RAW, passengers of a Stormraven can disembark from the Stormraven even if the Stormraven moves more than 6", but to do so requires the passengers to disembark following a specific set of rules. In addition, again per RAW, if those passengers are placed within 6" of the Stormraven when they disembark, they can use the Stormraven's Locator Beacon to not scatter (if it has a Beacon, and if it started the turn on the table). This is due to how Skies of Fury and Locator Beacon are worded. Zooming as no baring on how these rules work due to how these rules are worded.

SJ

jeffersonian, if it's RAW you should be able to post a rule that overrides the restriction on disembarking from a Zooming Flyer. So far all I've seen is a rule that overrides the restriction on disembarking from a vehicle that moved more than 6".

 Happyjew wrote:
jeffersonian, if it's RAW you should be able to post a rule that overrides the restriction on disembarking from a Zooming Flyer. So far all I've seen is a rule that overrides the restriction on disembarking from a vehicle that moved more than 6".

I did. The power of reading, my friend, the power of reading.

SJ

You mean the rule that overrides one restriction but not the other?

 Happyjew wrote:
You mean the rule that overrides one restriction but not the other?

On one hand, yes. On the other hand, codex overrules BRB, so it could be argued that it ignores both restrictions depending on the exact wording of the rule.

vundere wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
You mean the rule that overrides one restriction but not the other?

On one hand, yes. On the other hand, codex overrules BRB, so it could be argued that it ignores both restrictions depending on the exact wording of the rule.

This is my view exactly. RAW the only qualifier for Skies of Fury to be legal is you move more than 6". As this is a codex rule, it doesn't whether you are hovering or zooming. If you move more than 6", you can disembark from the Stormraven in a manner similar to deep striking.

Scion of Sanguinius wrote:

vundere wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
You mean the rule that overrides one restriction but not the other?

On one hand, yes. On the other hand, codex overrules BRB, so it could be argued that it ignores both restrictions depending on the exact wording of the rule.

This is my view exactly. RAW the only qualifier for Skies of Fury to be legal is you move more than 6". As this is a codex rule, it doesn't whether you are hovering or zooming. If you move more than 6", you can disembark from the Stormraven in a manner similar to deep striking.

Your interpretation of codex>brb would lead to a unit being allowed to charge on the turn it arrived from reserves and then ran/fired a heavy weapon, just because it's datasheet said it can charge on the turn it disembarked.

the codex rule must actually be written to override the brb rule

 jokerkd wrote:

Scion of Sanguinius wrote:

vundere wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
You mean the rule that overrides one restriction but not the other?

On one hand, yes. On the other hand, codex overrules BRB, so it could be argued that it ignores both restrictions depending on the exact wording of the rule.

This is my view exactly. RAW the only qualifier for Skies of Fury to be legal is you move more than 6". As this is a codex rule, it doesn't whether you are hovering or zooming. If you move more than 6", you can disembark from the Stormraven in a manner similar to deep striking.

Your interpretation of codex>brb would lead to a unit being allowed to charge on the turn it arrived from reserves and then ran/fired a heavy weapon, just because it's datasheet said it can charge on the turn it disembarked.

the codex rule must actually be written to override the brb rule

Unless you can prove your example, it's a bad example.

In the case on Skies of Fury, we are not only given permission to disembark, we are given specific rules that must be followed if a unit disembarks under those conditions. As in, it is a very specific circumstance that is accounted for within the rule set. It does not conflate to allowing other, non-specific loop holes to occur, but does open the possibility that a combo can occur given the right wording (such as found with the Locator Beacon).

SJ

Could the kharybdis plus bezerker KDK formation allow the bezerker S to run and charge? It's rule very specifically but all encompassing states they may assault the turn they disembark - so from deepstrike, for example seems the obvious one, but running and assaulting would also be covered.

Similarly here I can disembark even if I've moved over 6" , is that codex specific enough?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Could the kharybdis plus bezerker KDK formation allow the bezerker S to run and charge? It's rule very specifically but all encompassing states they may assault the turn they disembark - so from deepstrike, for example seems the obvious one, but running and assaulting would also be covered.

Similarly here I can disembark even if I've moved over 6" , is that codex specific enough?

this is the example i'm talking about. should a rule that actually only covers one restriction, then override override every other restriction?

 jokerkd wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Could the kharybdis plus bezerker KDK formation allow the bezerker S to run and charge? It's rule very specifically but all encompassing states they may assault the turn they disembark - so from deepstrike, for example seems the obvious one, but running and assaulting would also be covered.

Similarly here I can disembark even if I've moved over 6" , is that codex specific enough?

this is the example i'm talking about. should a rule that actually only covers one restriction, then override override every other restriction?

A rule that overrides one restriction is overriding ... one restriction.

SJ

 jokerkd wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Could the kharybdis plus bezerker KDK formation allow the bezerker S to run and charge? It's rule very specifically but all encompassing states they may assault the turn they disembark - so from deepstrike, for example seems the obvious one, but running and assaulting would also be covered.

Similarly here I can disembark even if I've moved over 6" , is that codex specific enough?

this is the example i'm talking about. should a rule that actually only covers one restriction, then override override every other restriction?

Except the bezerker rule is blanket permission to assault the turn they disembark, so it's specific and wide reaching...

I am with jeffersonian000 here... pretty clear, and there are many examples throughout all the codecs where special codecs rules give special permissions.

Someone mentioned the necron flyer deepstrike earlier. what is the wording on that flyers special disembark rules?

 Grizzyzz wrote:
I am with jeffersonian000 here... pretty clear, and there are many examples throughout all the codecs where special codecs rules give special permissions.

Someone mentioned the necron flyer deepstrike earlier. what is the wording on that flyers special disembark rules?

It says that flyer can disembark even when zooming. Skies of Fury doesn't say that.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 jokerkd wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Could the kharybdis plus bezerker KDK formation allow the bezerker S to run and charge? It's rule very specifically but all encompassing states they may assault the turn they disembark - so from deepstrike, for example seems the obvious one, but running and assaulting would also be covered.

Similarly here I can disembark even if I've moved over 6" , is that codex specific enough?

this is the example i'm talking about. should a rule that actually only covers one restriction, then override override every other restriction?

A rule that overrides one restriction is overriding ... one restriction.

SJ

And skys overrides only the more than 6" restriction; not the zooming restriction.

But it's obvious the flyer will move more than 6" if it zooms so this is covered.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
But it's obvious the flyer will move more than 6" if it zooms so this is covered.

Not unless you consider 6.1 to 12" zooming as well. You have only defeated one of the two restrictions. By RAW, SoF only lets you disembark while at Cruising speed.

Since no one's been willing to post the definition of Zooming, I will:

Zoom, pg 86 of the Warhammer 40,000 7th edition rulebook wrote:If a Flyer Zooms, it has a Combat Speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of up to 36".

So the rulebook defines Zooming as moving 18" up to 36". Is moving 18" up to 36" moving more than 6"?

Seriously, those arguing that Skies of Fury doesn't work with a Zooming Flyer reminds me of that insurance commercial where the kid is drinking allof the cartons of milk.

Flo: "Aren't you lactose intolerant?"

Kid: "This isn't lactose, it's milk!"

 Ghaz wrote:
Since no one's been willing to post the definition of Zooming, I will:

Zoom, pg 86 of the Warhammer 40,000 7th edition rulebook wrote:If a Flyer Zooms, it has a Combat Speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of up to 36".

So the rulebook defines Zooming as moving 18" up to 36". Is moving 18" up to 36" moving more than 6"?

Seriously, those arguing that Skies of Fury doesn't work with a Zooming Flyer reminds me of that insurance commercial where the kid is drinking allof the cartons of milk.

Flo: "Aren't you lactose intolerant?"

Kid: "This isn't lactose, it's milk!"

Zooming is a state, not distance of moving.

Again, what does the rulebook define as Zooming?

 Ghaz wrote:
Again, what does the rulebook define as Zooming?

Finally, unless otherwise stated, models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.
So why they wrote the sentence above even they had wrote “A unit that begins its Movement phase embarked upon a vehicle can disembark either
before or after the vehicle has moved (including pivoting on the spot, etc) so long as the vehicle has not moved more than 6"”?

That is because zooming is not a distance thing.
A unit cannot disembark from a zooming flyer even before the flyer moves

So once again, you can't provide a definition of Zoom without giving one that allows Skies of Fury to work.

 Ghaz wrote:
So once again, you can't provide a definition of Zoom without giving one that allows Skies of Fury to work.

Flyers can usually only make a special kind of move called Zoom. Some can also Hover – see opposite. Zooming allows the Flyer to move at fantastic speeds, making it very difficult to shoot down, but limits its manoeuvrability. If a Flyer Zooms, it has a Combat Speed of 18" and a Cruising Speed of up to 36". However, as a certain amount of forward thrust is required for the vehicle to stay in the air, a Zooming Flyer can never voluntarily move less than 18" in its own Movement phase. If a Zooming Flyer is forced to move less than 18" in its own Movement phase, it is automatically Wrecked.
To represent its limited manoeuvrability, a Zooming Flyer can only make a single pivot on the spot of up to 90° before it moves. Thereafter, it must move directly forwards in a straight line. In a turn in which a Flyer enters the board from Reserve, it can do so facing any direction you wish, providing that the resulting move will not carry it off the board again.
A Zooming Flyer can move over intervening units and impassable terrain exactly as a Skimmer. In addition, a Zooming Flyer does not have to take Dangerous Terrain tests even if it starts or stops over difficult, dangerous or impassable terrain. Finally, unless otherwise stated, models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming Flyer.
Zoom, Tank Shock and Ramming
Zooming Flyers cannot Tank Shock or Ram, nor can they be Tank Shocked or Rammed. If a Ramming vehicle would end up underneath a Zooming Flyer, move the Ramming vehicle by the shortest distance so that it is 1" away from the base of the Flyer.
Zooming and Shooting
Flyers have sophisticated targeting systems designed to work at the fastest speeds. Zooming Flyers can fire up to four of their weapons using their full Ballistic Skill if they have moved at either Combat Speed or Cruising Speed that turn.
Hard to Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don’t roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.
Zoom and Flat Out
A Zooming Flyer that goes Flat Out must move forwards in a straight line between 12" and 24".
Charging Zooming Flyers
Due to their high speed (and presumably high altitude), Zooming Flyers cannot be charged.
Repairing Zooming Flyers
Some models have the ability to repair Hull Points, Immobilised or Weapon Destroyed results on vehicles. Such models can only use such abilities on a Zooming Flyer if that Flyer is a Transport and the model attempting to repair it is embarked inside it.
Leaving Combat Airspace
It’s quite likely that a Flyer making a Zoom move will leave the board, either deliberately or by accident. If this happens, the Flyer is said to have left combat airspace – it then enters Ongoing Reserves. A Flyer that leaves combat airspace must Zoom back on when it returns from Ongoing Reserves, even if it has the Hover type.
A Flyer cannot leave combat airspace on the same turn that it entered play from Reserves – the owning player must deploy their model in such a way that it will not leave the board on the same turn.

This is the definition of Zooming. Don't garble quote out of context.

So still no definition of Zooming that Skies of Fury doesn't override. Gotcha. You can't answer a simple question because it proves you wrong.