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Not only that, but aren't all Jump units Bulky while Bike aren't?

I don't really think Jump Infantry need to be even more worse than Bikes.


I could be wrong though. (About Bikes not having Bulky, I mean).

 Ashiraya wrote:
How would they function against vehicles?

Ideally, they wouldn't. Gotta have a reason to take melta too. I'd be perfectly fine with reducing vehicle movement to 0" for the turn on a 5+ or 6+. Still gives a tactical reason to shoot that grav cent split fire against a land raider, but also means the Las options isn't totally overlooked because grav is still better anti vehicle than normal anti tank guns since 2x 6's means it's game over for anything that isn't a land raider or a monolith.

Grav should be anti MC
Plasma should be general anti-infantry with a bit of all-rounder but a drawback
Melta for AV
Flamers for light infantry
Heavy bolters still desperately need a buff to salvo 2/3 or a points drop to 5 points, possibly both.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Not only that, but aren't all Jump units Bulky while Bike aren't?

I don't really think Jump Infantry need to be even more worse than Bikes.

I could be wrong though. (About Bikes not having Bulky, I mean).

You are, bikes are very bulky, pg 63 of the small rulebook

 Drasius wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
How would they function against vehicles?

Ideally, they wouldn't.

Yeeeah...no. There's problems with vehicles, and Grav ain't it.

Gotta have a reason to take melta too.

There is a reason. It's called an additional D6 for armor penetration within half range.

I'd be perfectly fine with reducing vehicle movement to 0" for the turn on a 5+ or 6+. Still gives a tactical reason to shoot that grav cent split fire against a land raider, but also means the Las options isn't totally overlooked because grav is still better anti vehicle than normal anti tank guns since 2x 6's means it's game over for anything that isn't a land raider or a monolith.

Which, again, is a problem with how vehicle damage works not a problem with grav. Also a problem of legacy weapons not getting buffed/altered to match the new ruleset.

Grav should be anti MC
Plasma should be general anti-infantry with a bit of all-rounder but a drawback
Melta for AV
Flamers for light infantry
Heavy bolters still desperately need a buff to salvo 2/3 or a points drop to 5 points, possibly both.

Grav should be anti-high armor saves and vehicles, plasma should have variable fire modes(one for groups and one for single targets), melta should be anti-high toughness/armor, flamers should be anti-cover, and heavy bolters should be a middle ground of fire rate and variable fire modes.

If grav got nerfed SM will take more plasma and some melta. Black Knights are better than grav gun bikers.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If grav got nerfed SM will take more plasma and some melta. Black Knights are better than grav gun bikers.

If Black Knights had the option to switch the Plasma Talons into Grav Talons instead... easiest decision ever.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If grav got nerfed SM will take more plasma and some melta. Black Knights are better than grav gun bikers.

If Black Knights had the option to switch the Plasma Talons into Grav Talons instead... easiest decision ever.

Hurricane Bolter made of Grav Guns, on a Land Raider profile with a Grav Cannon with Grav Amp turret.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If grav got nerfed SM will take more plasma and some melta. Black Knights are better than grav gun bikers.

If Black Knights had the option to switch the Plasma Talons into Grav Talons instead... easiest decision ever.

Hurricane Bolter made of Grav Guns, on a Land Raider profile with a Grav Cannon with Grav Amp turret.

Sign me up!

 Crazyterran wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If grav got nerfed SM will take more plasma and some melta. Black Knights are better than grav gun bikers.

If Black Knights had the option to switch the Plasma Talons into Grav Talons instead... easiest decision ever.

Hurricane Bolter made of Grav Guns, on a Land Raider profile with a Grav Cannon with Grav Amp turret.

Sign me up!

It is how I would balance Grav. Apply Craftworlds level "balance", I.e. balance it by making it even stronger.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If grav got nerfed SM will take more plasma and some melta. Black Knights are better than grav gun bikers.

If Black Knights had the option to switch the Plasma Talons into Grav Talons instead... easiest decision ever.

Hurricane Bolter made of Grav Guns, on a Land Raider profile with a Grav Cannon with Grav Amp turret.

The LR could be a superheavy too so it's not that easy to blow up. 6 hull points minimum. I'm thinking of points now, would 295 be good? Sounds like a reasonable amount to me.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If grav got nerfed SM will take more plasma and some melta. Black Knights are better than grav gun bikers.

If Black Knights had the option to switch the Plasma Talons into Grav Talons instead... easiest decision ever.

Hurricane Bolter made of Grav Guns, on a Land Raider profile with a Grav Cannon with Grav Amp turret.

The LR could be a superheavy too so it's not that easy to blow up. 6 hull points minimum. I'm thinking of points now, would 295 be good? Sounds like a reasonable amount to me.

You're right! Maybe make it on a Baneblade chassis and give it something like a Heavy Grav Burst Cannon, which fires an apocalyptic blast of Grav, has a Grav Cannon with Grav Amp in the front, can can purchase Hurricane Gravgun sponsons.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If grav got nerfed SM will take more plasma and some melta. Black Knights are better than grav gun bikers.

If Black Knights had the option to switch the Plasma Talons into Grav Talons instead... easiest decision ever.

Hurricane Bolter made of Grav Guns, on a Land Raider profile with a Grav Cannon with Grav Amp turret.

The LR could be a superheavy too so it's not that easy to blow up. 6 hull points minimum. I'm thinking of points now, would 295 be good? Sounds like a reasonable amount to me.

You're right! Maybe make it on a Baneblade chassis and give it something like a Heavy Grav Burst Cannon, which fires an apocalyptic blast of Grav, has a Grav Cannon with Grav Amp in the front, can can purchase Hurricane Gravgun sponsons.

And to top it all off it of course has armoured ceramite.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If grav got nerfed SM will take more plasma and some melta. Black Knights are better than grav gun bikers.

If Black Knights had the option to switch the Plasma Talons into Grav Talons instead... easiest decision ever.

Hurricane Bolter made of Grav Guns, on a Land Raider profile with a Grav Cannon with Grav Amp turret.

The LR could be a superheavy too so it's not that easy to blow up. 6 hull points minimum. I'm thinking of points now, would 295 be good? Sounds like a reasonable amount to me.

You're right! Maybe make it on a Baneblade chassis and give it something like a Heavy Grav Burst Cannon, which fires an apocalyptic blast of Grav, has a Grav Cannon with Grav Amp in the front, can can purchase Hurricane Gravgun sponsons.

And to top it all off it of course has armoured ceramite.

So, a Spartan Assault Tank or Achilles Land Raider with grav instead of their usual stuff? I could dig that. Especially the Spartan. 25 man capacity is delicious. I still think all land raiders should be able to carry 4 extra people from what they carry now at no additional cost.

Ideally, they wouldn't. Gotta have a reason to take melta too. I'd be perfectly fine with reducing vehicle movement to 0" for the turn on a 5+ or 6+. Still gives a tactical reason to shoot that grav cent split fire against a land raider, but also means the Las options isn't totally overlooked because grav is still better anti vehicle than normal anti tank guns since 2x 6's means it's game over for anything that isn't a land raider or a monolith.

Grav should be anti MC
Plasma should be general anti-infantry with a bit of all-rounder but a drawback
Melta for AV
Flamers for light infantry
Heavy bolters still desperately need a buff to salvo 2/3 or a points drop to 5 points, possibly both.

Heck no to grav not being able to damage vehicles. At least until melta can be made competitive enough to compete and be decent. Grav not hurting vehicles would mean they don't hurt Super heavies as well.

I don't have an issue with the proposed change to the table. That seems fairly reasonable except for the no way to damage vehicles thing.
Heck no to plasma having a wound chance unless they are much better or drop 5 points. I would even take a str drop to str 6. Plasma still needs a bit more imo to be reliable and decent. Quite frankly plasma as is, is too risky to use unless it has twin-linked or something re-rolling 1s.
Melta NEEDS to be able to strip multiple HP in order for something like grav not hurting vehicles to be a plausible thing. The price shouldn't change.
Flamers are okay as is. Would be nice for there to be a SM flamer with torrent though. I would say on assault squads.
Agreed heavy bolters need a boost. I would say salvo 3/5 pinning. No addition points cost, but maybe a cost drop even with these changes.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If grav got nerfed SM will take more plasma and some melta. Black Knights are better than grav gun bikers.

If Black Knights had the option to switch the Plasma Talons into Grav Talons instead... easiest decision ever.

Hurricane Bolter made of Grav Guns, on a Land Raider profile with a Grav Cannon with Grav Amp turret.

The LR could be a superheavy too so it's not that easy to blow up. 6 hull points minimum. I'm thinking of points now, would 295 be good? Sounds like a reasonable amount to me.

You're right! Maybe make it on a Baneblade chassis and give it something like a Heavy Grav Burst Cannon, which fires an apocalyptic blast of Grav, has a Grav Cannon with Grav Amp in the front, can can purchase Hurricane Gravgun sponsons.

And to top it all off it of course has armoured ceramite.

Nope. It would have a new rule called Reinforced Structure. It would make it immune to the Melta, Lance, and glances(any and all hits must be penetrating hits in order to remove a hull point). 12-man capacity. All for 275 pts.

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If grav got nerfed SM will take more plasma and some melta. Black Knights are better than grav gun bikers.

If Black Knights had the option to switch the Plasma Talons into Grav Talons instead... easiest decision ever.

Not true. Plasma tears up everything equally well.

Just make it unable to hurt vehicles. This way grav still counters Riptides and Wraithknights, but forces more balance.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If grav got nerfed SM will take more plasma and some melta. Black Knights are better than grav gun bikers.

If Black Knights had the option to switch the Plasma Talons into Grav Talons instead... easiest decision ever.

Hurricane Bolter made of Grav Guns, on a Land Raider profile with a Grav Cannon with Grav Amp turret.

The LR could be a superheavy too so it's not that easy to blow up. 6 hull points minimum. I'm thinking of points now, would 295 be good? Sounds like a reasonable amount to me.

You're right! Maybe make it on a Baneblade chassis and give it something like a Heavy Grav Burst Cannon, which fires an apocalyptic blast of Grav, has a Grav Cannon with Grav Amp in the front, can can purchase Hurricane Gravgun sponsons.

And to top it all off it of course has armoured ceramite.

Nope. It would have a new rule called Reinforced Structure. It would make it immune to the Melta, Lance, and glances(any and all hits must be penetrating hits in order to remove a hull point). 12-man capacity. All for 275 pts.

We have a deal. From now on, I'll take 2-3 in every list! Don't you think it could have an invulnerable save of some sort too? Maybe an optional upgrade?

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
If grav got nerfed SM will take more plasma and some melta. Black Knights are better than grav gun bikers.

If Black Knights had the option to switch the Plasma Talons into Grav Talons instead... easiest decision ever.

Hurricane Bolter made of Grav Guns, on a Land Raider profile with a Grav Cannon with Grav Amp turret.

The LR could be a superheavy too so it's not that easy to blow up. 6 hull points minimum. I'm thinking of points now, would 295 be good? Sounds like a reasonable amount to me.

You're right! Maybe make it on a Baneblade chassis and give it something like a Heavy Grav Burst Cannon, which fires an apocalyptic blast of Grav, has a Grav Cannon with Grav Amp in the front, can can purchase Hurricane Gravgun sponsons.

And to top it all off it of course has armoured ceramite.

Nope. It would have a new rule called Reinforced Structure. It would make it immune to the Melta, Lance, and glances(any and all hits must be penetrating hits in order to remove a hull point). 12-man capacity. All for 275 pts.

We have a deal. From now on, I'll take 2-3 in every list! Don't you think it could have an invulnerable save of some sort too? Maybe an optional upgrade?

I suppose they could probably take a 4++ for 25 pts for an even 300 pts. I even came up with a name for this Wraithknight-level-broken monstrosity. The Land Raider Atlas. It would be a Lord of War. But it would still have a handy-dandy formation that lets you take nine of them.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I suppose they could probably take a 4++ for 25 pts for an even 300 pts. I even came up with a name for this Wraithknight-level-broken monstrosity. The Land Raider Atlas. It would be a Lord of War. But it would still have a handy-dandy formation that lets you take nine of them.

I presume the upgrades don't cost any points in the formation?

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I suppose they could probably take a 4++ for 25 pts for an even 300 pts. I even came up with a name for this Wraithknight-level-broken monstrosity. The Land Raider Atlas. It would be a Lord of War. But it would still have a handy-dandy formation that lets you take nine of them.

I presume the upgrades don't cost any points in the formation?

Obviously. Who pays points for stuff anymore anyway.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 Lammikkovalas wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I suppose they could probably take a 4++ for 25 pts for an even 300 pts. I even came up with a name for this Wraithknight-level-broken monstrosity. The Land Raider Atlas. It would be a Lord of War. But it would still have a handy-dandy formation that lets you take nine of them.

I presume the upgrades don't cost any points in the formation?

Obviously. Who pays points for stuff anymore anyway.

Only scrubs who play gak-tier armies who need to get good in the game.