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 Da Boss wrote:
I'm sorry, the Mayor of Cologne is now the representative of opinion for all of Germany? All hail the new dictator?

Can I pick an american who represents the views of all americans then? Is that how this works?

I mean your statement is directly contradicted by the Justice Minister at the end of the quoted section. One idiot saying something dumb does not tar an entire country, and if it does, the US is screwed.

Are you saying victim blaming isn't happening? Is it only the Mayor who's doing it? Oh, and I included the comment of the Justice Minister because I found it ironic that he would blame the perps when politicians and police in Germany were actively trying to obfuscate the identity of those same perps out of political correctness.

 Wulfmar wrote:
I don't believe the problem has anything to do with race, or think that racism is applicable as a term for the resentment as it's not a race causing the trouble.

The issue is Islam.

There. I said it.

Islam and the barbarism is brings to any place it rules over

Specifically, the inherent sexism and misogyny in Islamic culture.

So it was Islam that was responsible for the very similar NYC wilding attacks that have been mentioned twice in the thread so far?

No.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

I'm having a pretty hard time accepting that anything written, however unpleasant, on right wing sites and chatrooms can be 'at least as awful' as (and by inference very possibly worse than) women being physically assaulted and actually raped in the street.

Last year we had some very prominent ideologues going before the United Nations to talk about how cyber violence was equally as damaging as real, physical violence.

These comments are that ideology in action.

Wait, it was proven what group was part of the attacks?

Islam isn't responsible for every event. Picking a single event to make a point isn't a valid argument. Islamic teachings and culture are behind a lot of the problems in the middle East and Africa.

Allowing the rape of non-Muslim women (culture) who have been captured in war and are termed right hand property (teachings)

Videos (I won't link as they're vile) of preachers commanding men to rape western women to 'out breed' the white man...

I mean, this stuff just goes on and I'm only looking at one aspect.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
Clearly Cologne needs a slut walk, in full view of said migrants.

Don't like it? Welcome to Europe.

in light of events, its best if they are escorted by guards with machine guns.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
So it was Islam that was responsible for the very similar NYC wilding attacks that have been mentioned twice in the thread so far?

No.

What does that have to do with Cologne?

Thats a non sequitur.

 Wulfmar wrote:
I don't believe the problem has anything to do with race, or think that racism is applicable as a term for the resentment as it's not a race causing the trouble.

The issue is Islam.

There. I said it.

Islam and the barbarism is brings to any place it rules over

That is not true. There are plenty of places that are pretty neat and have Islam as a majority religion. Tatarstan, Turkey, Malaysia etc.
The issue is not Islam in itself, it is a combination of cultural and economical factors.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
I don't believe the problem has anything to do with race, or think that racism is applicable as a term for the resentment as it's not a race causing the trouble.

The issue is Islam.

There. I said it.

Islam and the barbarism is brings to any place it rules over

That is not true. There are plenty of places that are pretty neat and have Islam as a majority religion. Tatarstan, Turkey, Malaysia etc.
The issue is not Islam in itself, it is a combination of cultural and economical factors.

Some of those factors are inherently Islamic.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
So it was Islam that was responsible for the very similar NYC wilding attacks that have been mentioned twice in the thread so far?

No.

What does that have to do with Cologne?

The fact that muslims do not have the monopoly on sexual violence, which means that it is entirely possible that Islam as a religion had absolutely nothing to do with the rapes and it was rather the acts of savage men, regardless of their religion.

Every day a christian will rape someone, somewhere. They may do it in a large group. Does that mean that christianity is to blame for that rape?
Every day an atheist will rape someone, somewhere. They may also do it in a large group. Does that mean that atheism is to blame for that rape?
Every day a hindu will rape someone, somewhere. They may do it in a large group, too. Does that mean that hinduism is to blame for that rape?

The only thing that is to blame for this is the people who engaged in sexual violence.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
So it was Islam that was responsible for the very similar NYC wilding attacks that have been mentioned twice in the thread so far?

No.

What does that have to do with Cologne?

The fact that muslims do not have the monopoly on sexual violence, which means that it is entirely possible that Islam as a religion had absolutely nothing to do with the rapes and it was rather the acts of savage men, regardless of their religion.

Nobody here said that it did. Only that it was a factor which influenced the perpetrators behavior.

Every day a christian will rape someone, somewhere. They may do it in a large group. Does that mean that christianity is to blame for that rape?

If they're influenced and motivated by Christian religious beliefs and doctrines, partially.

Every day an atheist will rape someone, somewhere. They may also do it in a large group. Does that mean that atheism is to blame for that rape?

Ditto.

Every day a hindu will rape someone, somewhere. They may do it in a large group, too. Does that mean that hinduism is to blame for that rape?

Ditto.

There are parts of the Quran that state a husband is permitted to beat his wife when she misbehaves. Ergo, when a Muslim man beats his wife because he believes its permitted by his religion, is that religion not partly to blame?

The only thing that is to blame for this is the people who engaged in sexual violence.

Really? And not the culture and religion they were brought in which helped shape their values and gave them the belief that its ok and permissable to do certain things? What about genital mutilation? Circumcision is a pretty core tenet of Jewish belief right? Its in the Torah? So does it not follow that Jewish religious belief and scripture are partly to blame for male circumcision?

>"My religious book permits me to do X"
>He does X.
>"There is absolutely no connection between the religious book permitting X and the individual committing X. Its all the individuals fault."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For decades, Christianity in Europe has been attacked for its stance(s) on homosexuality. The Bible contains strictures and beliefs that are distinctly homophobic, by modern standards.

But there is no connection between the homophobia in the Bible, and the homophobia of some individual Christians?

Skimmed the last few pages and didn't see this:

If its already been posted, I'll delete.

http://news.yahoo.com/unprecedented-sex-harassment-helsinki-police-194548532.html

Helsinki (AFP) - Finnish police reported Thursday an unusually high level of sexual harassment in Helsinki on New Year's Eve and said they had been tipped off about plans by groups of asylum seekers to sexually harass women.

Helsinki deputy police chief Ilkka Koskimaki told AFP: "There hasn't been this kind of harassment on previous New Year's Eves or other occasions for that matter... This is a completely new phenomenon in Helsinki."

Security guards hired to patrol the city on New Year's Eve told police there had been "widespread sexual harassment" at a central square where around 20,000 people had gathered for celebrations.

Three sexual assaults allegedly took place at Helsinki's central railway station on New Year's Eve, where around 1,000 mostly Iraqi asylum seekers had converged.

"Police have... received information about three cases of sexual assault, of which two have been filed as complaints," Helsinki police said in a statement.

"The suspects were asylum seekers. The three were caught and taken into custody on the spot," Koskimaki told AFP.

Police said they had increased their preparedness "to an exceptional level" in Helsinki for New Year's Eve after being tipped off about possible problems.

"Ahead of New Year's Eve, the police caught wind of information that asylum seekers in the capital region possibly had similar plans to what the men gathered in Cologne's railway station have been reported to have had," police said in a statement.

Dozens of apparently coordinated sexual assaults against women took place on New Year's Eve in the western German city of Cologne.

Cologne police said they had received 120 criminal complaints by Thursday and quoted witnesses as saying that groups of 20-30 young men "who appeared to be of Arab origin" had surrounded victims, assaulted them and in several cases robbed them.

Koskimaki said police did not see a link between the Cologne and Helsinki incidents.

Shortly before New Year's Eve, Finnish police also arrested six Iraqis at an asylum residency centre in Kirkkonummi, around 30 kilometres (19 miles) west of Helsinki, suspected of "publicly inciting criminal behaviour". They were released on January 2.

According to Koskimaki, the arrests were linked to the information police received in the run-up to New Year's Eve.

In November, Finnish authorities said around 10 asylum seekers were suspected of rapes, among the more than 1,000 rapes reported to police in 2015.

Im still confused, is it an actual minority group responsible or are people just theorizing

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Im still confused, is it an actual minority group responsible or are people just theorizing

I believe that all that is known is that men of Arab or North African origins were responsible. It is sure that it was a minority group, what is not sure is whether they were refugees or "regular" asylum seekers.

Sex attackers risk deportation - Merkel

Germany must look again at deporting foreigners convicted of crimes
following the Cologne sex attacks, Chancellor Angela Merkel says.

She said "clear signals" had to be sent to those not prepared to abide by German law.

Gangs of men described as of North African and Arab appearance were reported to be behind the attacks.

Meanwhile, similar incidents from New Year's Eve have been reported in Finland and Switzerland.

"What happened on New Year is not acceptable," Mrs Merkel said in a statement.

"These are repugnant criminal acts that a state, that Germany will not accept.
The feeling women had in this case of being at people's mercy, without any protection, is intolerable for me personally as well.

"That's why it is important that everything that happened there will be brought to the table.
We must examine again and again whether we have already done what is necessary in terms of deportations from Germany,
in order to send clear signals to those who are not prepared to abide by our legal order."


The identification of the attackers as North African or Arab in appearance has caused alarm in Germany because of the influx of more than a million migrants and refugees in the past year.

German Justice Minister Heiko Maas also said deportations "would certainly be conceivable" for any foreigners involved in the attacks.

He told the Funke newspaper group that German law allowed people to be deported during asylum proceedings if they were sentenced to a year or more in prison.


Source: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35259224

It appears that Angela Merkel is ready to take action.

About time if you ask me.

Sex attackers "risk" deportation?

Must look again, she says. Poppycock. They'll make a big fuss to generate headlines then quietly drop it like a hot potato once the news agenda has moved on. European human rights will be a big obstacle to deportotaion.

Shell "look again" and think "nope".

 Breotan wrote:
Sex attackers "risk" deportation?

It sounds like they get prison first, then deportation. ...right?

 Witzkatz wrote:
A friend of mine just posted an article on facebook where the author was roughly referring to this incident, but also explained that Western media oversexualizes women so that all the young men from middle eastern countries are, naturally, thinking that all Western girls are easy and like a rather aggressive approach. It's another weird...discussion point I have not heard before.

Once when I was out shopping a middle eastern-looking guy started hitting on me out of nowhere. I don't know if he thought "hey, easy white girl" or if he was just not great at social customs yet - if that's the case hopefully he learned a little bit from the encounter? That was just one guy, though. If you want to write them off over one guy the we'll just have to ship all men back to Africa.

I dunno. I've read things by women from that area saying that men look at you differently there than in The West. It probably doesn't help when someone is told it's a woman's responsibility to not tempt them, but again that seems cultural as much as anything. I think reality is that Muslims are just like Christians - their holy book says some awful stuff but when it conflicts with the morality they've learned from their culture, they just tune it out. There are lots of Muslims who are happy citizens of western countries. It might be tough to adjust, but then, when your country has gone up in flames maybe it's easier than you might think to adopt something new.

Re: the reporting thing. Whenever something like this happens, a bunch of anti-Islam or anti-refugee sentiment gets whipped up and certain groups (nationalists in particular) often get violent. Then they do things like firebomb Sikh temples or mosques, or accost and scream at or assault people who they think look Muslim or like a refugee. Don't say "free speech is so important and powerful" out one side of your mouth and "...but it can't possibly hurt anyone" out the other. It does, and reporting this stuff has to be responsible. It does have the capacity to cause more harm than the original actions.

I mean, at the very least you could end up like Australia, where over a decade of politicians vilifying refugees for political gain has led to us committing crimes against humanity in the hopes that we'll convince refugees that coming here is worse than getting killed by the Taliban.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
So it was Islam that was responsible for the very similar NYC wilding attacks that have been mentioned twice in the thread so far?

No.

What does that have to do with Cologne?

Thats a non sequitur.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
I don't believe the problem has anything to do with race, or think that racism is applicable as a term for the resentment as it's not a race causing the trouble.

The issue is Islam.

There. I said it.

Islam and the barbarism is brings to any place it rules over

Specifically, the inherent sexism and misogyny in Islamic culture.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
So it was Islam that was responsible for the very similar NYC wilding attacks that have been mentioned twice in the thread so far?

No.

Identical "wilding" attacks in New York and Cologne, not carried out by Muslims in both cases.

Islam was not the common factor.

It follows, therefore, that Islam is not the problem.

I just saw an article posted on FB that elaborates on the drunkard's fest that is the Oktoberfest, perhaps in comparison to this. During the Oktoberfest, there are also heightened reports of sexual harassment, violence, even rape. There seem to be certain people who specialize on finding girls and women isolated from their friend groups and "offer to bring them home".

Some people argue that these women and girls "knew how the Oktoberfest is" and that "things are of course different" during such an occasion. Others argue, rightfully I think, that there is still no excuse for violence, sexual harassment and rape, though, on the Oktoberfest.

However, it IS interesting that I never heard of mass outcries about "regular tourists" and German natives being violent, sexually aggressive drunkards on the Wies'n.

My personal opinion about Cologne and Oktoberfest and all these instances has changed a bit in the last days...the common factor is not always religion or ethnicities, but rather alcohol. If it wouldn't be so ingrained in culture, there might be a way to solve some problems on that front...

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
I don't believe the problem has anything to do with race, or think that racism is applicable as a term for the resentment as it's not a race causing the trouble.

The issue is Islam.

There. I said it.

Islam and the barbarism is brings to any place it rules over

That is not true. There are plenty of places that are pretty neat and have Islam as a majority religion. Tatarstan, Turkey, Malaysia etc.
The issue is not Islam in itself, it is a combination of cultural and economical factors.

Some of those factors are inherently Islamic.

If they were inherently islamic, that would mean they should appear in every islamic culture. Since they don't, I am going to go with that it is something to do with Arab culture, rather than something in Islam. There is plenty of muslims, even in muslim-majority countries like Bosnia, who share Western values on things like women's rights. Therefore, sexism and misogyny are not inherent to islamic culture.

The last time I posted in one of these threads, Kilkrazy banned me from Off-Topic for a week. Let's roll.

By the way, guys, it wasn't just Cologne:
Hamburg, Helsinki, Zurich, Salzburg, Kalmar.

The factor linking all these together is the same factor that linked everything in Cologne together, by the way.

Helsinki would've been much worse but a group of migrants were arrested earlier in the week and the police found out about plans to do this.

Icing on the cake is the gang rape of two teenaged (14, 15) girls in Weil am Rhine.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
So it was Islam that was responsible for the very similar NYC wilding attacks that have been mentioned twice in the thread so far?

No.

Look up. Look back at your post. Look up again.

Ask yourself, "Am I avoiding cognitive dissonance? Do I hold my opinions for emotional reasons? Is there logic that I am avoiding to stop myself from being bad?"

Let me tell you a story about racism, Kilkrazy. You might like this one. Back in the '80s in London, there was a series of HORRIFIC robbery-rapes. A guy would break into a house, rape ANYONE who was inside and then rob the place and leave. Old men, old women, children, whatever. This guy didn't care. These crimes were awful.

Then there were blockades by police in the poor neighbourhoods in London. They'd stop only black men, swab their mouths and tell them to get on their way. This caused RIOTS. The police were accused of being racist, of being monsters, of targeting black men for no reason except to ruin their day.

The police DID have nothing to go on... except barely understood DNA testing. Earlier, they sent it in the DNA they had got from one of the victims. The lab had sent it back saying, "There is a 99% chance this was a black male as all the genetic markers are there."

The police caught the guy who was doing the crimes and they stopped.

Think about it.

Pretty relevant on the distinction between the two cultures views on what you can and cannot do around woman. Norway for example offer courses for people in dealing with western women because they do come from places and cultures where they don't treat women the same way we do in the western world. To pretend otherwise that no migrants are committing large scale sexual assaults and or see nothing wrong with assaulting western women who are seen sometimes as prostitutes because of their none conservative ways is just flat out denial. You're not racist for seeing reality in things even some migrants from those places say its that way.

When he first arrived in Europe, Abdu Osman Kelifa, a Muslim asylum seeker from the Horn of Africa, was shocked to see women in skimpy clothes drinking alcohol and kissing in public. Back home, he said, only prostitutes do that, and in locally made movies couples “only hug but never kiss.”

Confused, Mr. Kelifa volunteered to take part in a pioneering and, in some quarters, controversial program that seeks to prevent sexual and other violence by helping male immigrants from societies that are largely segregated or in which women show neither flesh nor public affection to adapt to more open European societies.

Fearful of stigmatizing migrants as potential rapists and playing into the hands of anti-immigrant politicians, most European countries have avoided addressing the question of whether men arriving from more conservative societies might get the wrong idea once they move to places where it can seem as if anything goes.

This kind of attitude is whats holding people back, admitting that peoples from certain societies and cultures do view women differently and pose possible danger to more western women who do not uphold cultural conservative attitudes similar to the migrants own is not racist, its not its admitting difference in cultural norms especially in large groups of young men. all that racism card throwing and its not them its us and whatever other flat out denial/victim blaming tactics been thrown around is stopping people fixing the real issue.

Hanne Kristin Rohde, a former head of the violent crime section of the Oslo Police Department, said she ran into a wall of hostility when, in 2011 while still in the police force, she blamed sexual violence by foreign men on cultural factors and went public with data suggesting that immigrants committed a hugely disproportionate number of rapes.

“The biggest danger for everyone is silence,” said Per Isdal, a clinical psychologist in Stavanger who works with the foundation, which developed the program Mr. Kelifa attended in Sandes.

Many refugees “come from cultures that are not gender equal and where women are the property of men,” Mr. Isdal said. “We have to help them adapt to their new culture.”

“This was a big problem but it was difficult to talk about it,” Ms. Rohde said recently, asserting that there was “a clear statistical connection” between sexual violence and male migrants from countries where “women have no value of their own.” The taboo, she added, has since eased somewhat.

“There are lots of men who haven’t learned that women have value,” said Ms. Rohde, who wants mandatory sexual conduct classes for all new male migrants. “This is the biggest problem, and it is a cultural problem.”

An air of silence has blanketed this real issue silencing anyone from addressing it on flawed accusations of "RACIST!"

Mr. Kelifa, the African asylum seeker, said he still had a hard time accepting that a wife could accuse her husband of sexual assault. But he added that he had learned how to read previously baffling signals from women who wear short skirts, smile or simply walk alone at night without an escort.

“Men have weaknesses and when they see someone smiling it is difficult to control,” Mr. Kelifa said, explaining that in his own country, Eritrea, “if someone wants a lady he can just take her and he will not be punished,” at least not by the police.

Let me stress it is not intolerance or simple racism to look at these factors and see the connections with reality taking place. If that were true and we basically have to deny anything happening if it involves migrants well we should start letting people convicted of crimes like murder and rape go if they happen to be from none European countries to appear not racist. It is racist to deny crime and reality based on culture, race or country of origin over facts and two of those still have nothing to do with race.

If a women tells you she was raped and you're sympathetic until you hear it was by an recent immigrant where upon you turn on the victim and tell them its their fault or to give those men leeway because they're different or maybe she should learn to avoid rape herself that its somehow now her fault, that makes you a really bad person for doing so.

As a side note on religion, Christianity has been criticized for years on things like homosexuality and Christian businesses have been forced to go against their beliefs to carry on serving and churches were made to accept changes that don't match up to modern progressive society. so why is Islam off the table for the same thing. Why is it untouchable in the west, why do we make excuses for it when it clashes with western ideology, why do we bend over backwards to accommodate even if its directly opposed to western ways yet any other religion is open to criticism and downright changes/rules and restrictions placed on them.



Its sad because there's a lot of interesting things in the culture too.



References
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/12/20/world/europe/norway-offers-migrants-a-lesson-in-how-to-treat-women.html?_r=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2Fm.facebook.com%2F

 Kilkrazy wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
So it was Islam that was responsible for the very similar NYC wilding attacks that have been mentioned twice in the thread so far?

No.

What does that have to do with Cologne?

Thats a non sequitur.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Wulfmar wrote:
I don't believe the problem has anything to do with race, or think that racism is applicable as a term for the resentment as it's not a race causing the trouble.

The issue is Islam.

There. I said it.

Islam and the barbarism is brings to any place it rules over

Specifically, the inherent sexism and misogyny in Islamic culture.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
So it was Islam that was responsible for the very similar NYC wilding attacks that have been mentioned twice in the thread so far?

No.

Identical "wilding" attacks in New York and Cologne, not carried out by Muslims in both cases.

Islam was not the common factor.

It follows, therefore, that Islam is not the problem.

Right. Because there can only ever be one single possible cause or contributing factor to sexusl violence. If Islam is not the cause/a factor in every single case of sexual violence everywhere in the world, then its never involved in anything.



Nobody here has argued that Islam is always the problem, responsible for all cases of exual violence everywhere. They're arguing that its the problem, and a significant factor in this particular incident.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

As a side note on religion, Christianity has been criticized for years on things like homosexuality and Christian businesses have been forced to go against their beliefs to carry on serving and churches were made to accept changes that don't match up to modern progressive society. so why is Islam off the table for the same thing. Why is it untouchable in the west, why do we make excuses for it when it clashes with western ideology, why do we bend over backwards to accommodate even if its directly opposed to western ways yet any other religion is open to criticism and downright changes/rules and restrictions placed on them.

Because the average Muslim has brown skin, and some people care morr about racism than protecting victims of sexual violence.


I've been scornful of such proposals in the past, but this is an example of men who need to be literally taught not to rape to counteract the negative cultural influences of their country of origin.

On my phone, so no long rant, but treating "Arab" culture or "Islamic" culture as if it's a homogenous blob is actually racist*, since it attributes certain values to people based solely on their geographical origin.

*Note that there's a difference between an argument being racist and the person making it being racist. It's quite possible to make racist arguments without being a racist (hell, I'm guilty of it myself), but that does not change that the argument is rubbish.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
treating "Arab" culture or "Islamic" culture as if it's a homogenous blob is actually racist

All those things have nothing to do with race you can be a follower of Islam and be white. You can follow Islamic culture and be Asian.
People need to learn what race is so they don't pull the racism card for a religion. It would be like me saying "All Christians are bigots" and someone calling racism on it, its silly it makes no sense, its also not factual.

 Los pollos hermanos wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
treating "Arab" culture or "Islamic" culture as if it's a homogenous blob is actually racist

All those things have nothing to do with race you can be a follower of Islam and be white. You can follow Islamic culture and be Asian.
People need to learn what race is so they don't pull the racism card for a religion. It would be like me saying "All Christians are bigots" and someone calling racism on it, its silly it makes no sense, its also not factual.

Or you could take five minutes to read up on cultural racism.

But you haven't actually shown that the argument itself is rubbish, you just used the Race card and lazily labelled it racist as though that is in itself a sufficient rebuttal. I'm still waiting for the punch line.

Of course Islam is not a homogeneous monolith, no religion is. If people sound like they're describing it as such, its usually a generalisation for ease of argument. When people criticise Christianity on homosexuality, do they account for each and every sect of Christianity?

But there are specific aspects of and teachings in Islam that are deeply misogynistic by western standards which influence the behaviour of men brought up in Islamic cultures.

Are you outright denying that there's a link between Islamic teachings and cultural values and the behaviour and attitudes of zmuslim men?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Los pollos hermanos wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
treating "Arab" culture or "Islamic" culture as if it's a homogenous blob is actually racist

All those things have nothing to do with race you can be a follower of Islam and be white. You can follow Islamic culture and be Asian.
People need to learn what race is so they don't pull the racism card for a religion. It would be like me saying "All Christians are bigots" and someone calling racism on it, its silly it makes no sense, its also not factual.

Or you could take five minutes to read up on cultural racism.

A.k.a. redefining words and inventing new isms to back up a flawed argument. Like hammering a square block into a rounded shape to let it fit into s round ho!e.