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All I'm getting here is yet another Top 3 army getting salty that people don't enjoy playing them. What a surprise.

Lets talk about how you outplay a Necron army.

...oh wait you can't. You are forced to accept their pace because they will always trade effectively.
-Alpha strike is like a serving platter
-Castling is pointless in the current edition of 40k,
-Shoot-n-Scoot is only possible by Xenos armies and only used to the full potential with Eldar.

There are no tactics a person can leverage against them in general. There is no room to outplay them, you *have* to rely on beating them on points.

Dark Eldar - Fragile
Grey Knights - Low model count
Imperial Guard - No real strength to speak of
Orks - Low armor and LD
Sisters of Battle - Suffer from low toughness and AV units

All of these armies have a weakness that can be used and be relied upon. The generals of those armies build their list to minimize the weakness; Necrons don't have to build around a weakness because they have none (Same story for Eldar and SM; Tau is approaching it with assault and psychic being dump stats)

the_scotsman wrote:
I've always hated this attitude by people playing shooting armies.

I paid 40 points for a weapon, 35 points for armor, 50 points for better combat stats and 35 points for an assault transport to get them there. You paid points for the ability to shoot at supremely long range. I don't want 10 point upgrades to deflect your shooting back at you, you paid points for that shooting. I don't want invuln saves on all my models for free, you paid points for low AP.

This means, when you shoot at me, I remove models. No complaint there, I'm not asking for the ability to shoot back on your turn.

But the second my assault units might actually get some points back for all the melee abilities I bought, people playing shooting armies think they deserve to get 15 point upgrades to invalidate 150+ point characters, they think they're justified that they get to shoot out of turn sequence at me for no cost, and they still find one of the very, very few assault-favoring rules in the game oh so broken.

Loyalist Marine & Tau players I find are the worst for this...

Eldar players being arrogant d-bags is really just an epic example of "forging the narrative" and really playing into the character of their army!

 CrownAxe wrote:

 darthdaddy wrote:
The reason we have the new fnp rules to begin with is people complained that mss was op. Tesla snap shots were unfair, and spiders and scarabs needed to be nerfed too. Give me back my old necrons and stop your bitching, we didn't ask for these new rules, you did!

That is the lamest excuse i've heard yet. Nothing about balancing old issues has anything to do with new unrelated broken issues.

Not to mention the fact that MSS was introduced simultaneously with the FnP rules, which means that anything relating to MSS cannot be blamed for the change to Resurrection Protocols.

My whole point is Necron players didn't ask for these changes. People complaining about Necrons did. I find the irony delicious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mss and fnp rules may have been created at the same time, however the new rp/fnp rule was created at the same time we lost mss in its old form.

I recently got into 40k with my cousin, him playing necrons and me playing CSM. Now, we both just pick units that look cool and dont really care about power too much, but I gotta say, in the 4 games we have played, I have won one, and thats only because he is still learning certain rules. We played 2000 points last night and by the end of the game I won on objectives, but he removed about 1400 points of my army, and I killed a squad of 5 lychguard, 3 immortals, and a monolith. The most annoying thing to play against them is that he far outshoots me, every turn he wiped something off the board, where I would remove maybe a model in my shooting phase. Its hard to enjoy the victory when your hiding behind cover in the objectives the whole time too afraid to move because you will die, and in the process maybe kill 2 or 3 troops of his. if it wasn't for the obliterators making saves on over 900 points of shooting at them, I would have lost.

The most annoying thing about playing him is I need to pay for meltas out the wazhoo and hope to god they hit to get through his armor, while his troops wound anything on 6s. I'm more scared of Gauss then I am of 4+RP. in the games we have played a simple squad of warriors or immortals have killed countless rhinos, heldrakes, and killed my landraider in 1 turn of shooting, from just basic troops! Everyone says on here that its statistically impossible, but he rolls sixes like theres no tomorrow. Sure I can stay back and not get in rapid fire range, but to kill anything with the 4+ I gotta send everything in close with heavy weapons, which usually get blasted by all the firepower he has. Hell, I could do my full turn sequence before he even gets done half his shooting!

He basically runs a squad of 10 immortals, 2x 10 warriors, 2 monoliths, 2 anni barges, doomsday ark, 4 wraiths, 5 lynchguard, and a stalker. Everything in that list can kill anything I can bring, without having to specialize units to deal with a certain type of threat, while I pay out the wazoo for certain squads that are meant for one purpose. Now im not too sure if its more of a necron problem or a fact that CSM are in bad need of a better codex, or both. Even though I have won one game, its an uphill battle the whole time and I basically got very lucky with save rolls, and he didn't even advance his army until turn 4. I know he wont make that mistake again so im at a loss as to how im going to deal with it next game lol.

Addressing the cost of a warrior vs a space marine. You state at the cost of I2 but forget -1 to our save. Warriors have a 4+ save.

With RP, this only matter agaisnt AP4, the rarest of the game.

If AP4 had been rare, Stormtroopers would have been useful.

Armor saves in general are not really awesome, see the amount of threads regarding terminators. And the Scion dex have a lot more problems than just not being able to survive being shot at.

I can think of 5 weapons, heavy flamer, heavy bolters, chainaxes, autocannons (and variants) and that Leman Russ that ignores cover.

As with all things the better you learn your army the better you are at addressing other armies unique fighting styles.

Also, how often does I2 actually come into play? It's all well and good being slower in combat, but how often are you in melee with them? Especially when their (and the system's) shooting game is so strong.

 Ashiraya wrote:
If AP4 had been rare, Stormtroopers would have been useful.

AP4 is rare. AP3 and below is common, however.

This means that units which pay a premium to get their save from a 4+ to a 3+ in order to be more survivable against big guns are actually making a bad investment of those points, as they're now more expensive but still just as vulnerable to the AP3 and below weapons which are more common in the game compared to AP4.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 darthdaddy wrote:
My whole point is Necron players didn't ask for these changes. People complaining about Necrons did. I find the irony delicious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mss and fnp rules may have been created at the same time, however the new rp/fnp rule was created at the same time we lost mss in its old form.

Correlation =/= causation.

Just because RP got better when MSS disappeared does not mean that RP got better because MSS was taken away.

If it were then that would be one of the most idiotic cases of game design I have ever heard.

"Well we're removing wargear options from these few units."
"Well we'd better buff the entire army to make up for that!"

People complaining about Necrons didn't ask for these changes. They wanted MSS to be balanced, not necessarily removed. They didn't ask for RP to be buffed, army wide.

3+ save gives you a 66% percent chance to save your wound. 4+ and 4+++ gives you a 50% chance to save your wound. Advantage Space Marine.

Yes, on one AP value out of 6, omg, so good

 darthdaddy wrote:
3+ save gives you a 66% percent chance to save your wound. 4+ and 4+++ gives you a 50% chance to save your wound. Advantage Space Marine.

And against AP3 or better weapons, which are more common?

And how about AP5+?

And AP 5, 6 and no AP

Let me hear your theory. All I heard complained about Necrons was nerfed 100% in the new Codex. I agree with Tesla snap shots being nerfed and point costs for night scythes being increased those changes were expected. They changed the whole army dynamic. I ask you to use reason when you look at this. The only and I mean only thing that balanced cc was mss, remove it and the army falls apart. What is your solution to this given nerfing mss is going to happen?

 darthdaddy wrote:
3+ save gives you a 66% percent chance to save your wound. 4+ and 4+++ gives you a 50% chance to save your wound. Advantage Space Marine.

check your math lol. 4+ and 4+++ is a 75% chance

WAAA Waaa waaa. Oh look Necrons are cheaper than Space Marines for a measly I2.

OH give me a freaking break, Space Marines are already undercosted. Right there, just proves people are crying like little boys, playing an army that is already have the a step up from other units and still complain.

Funny a lot of people who already play an "easy" army or an army that is undercosted are the ones who are crying.

Necrons are a mid range army 24" is the most common range of our weapons, and in order to get rappid fire we need to be within 12" of our target. So I2 comes in play a lot since we want to rapid fire our weapons. Also with drop pod armies becoming more popular.

 darthdaddy wrote:
Necrons are a mid range army 24" is the most common range of our weapons, and in order to get rappid fire we need to be within 12" of our target. So I2 comes in play a lot since we want to rapid fire our weapons. Also with drop pod armies becoming more popular.

Necrons are stupid good. Stop trying to say they aren't. Most armies can't win melee combat against them.

 darthdaddy wrote:
Let me hear your theory. All I heard complained about Necrons was nerfed 100% in the new Codex. I agree with Tesla snap shots being nerfed and point costs for night scythes being increased those changes were expected. They changed the whole army dynamic. I ask you to use reason when you look at this. The only and I mean only thing that balanced cc was mss, remove it and the army falls apart. What is your solution to this given nerfing mss is going to happen?

Oh please, Necrons aren't exactly sitting ducks in combat! Wraiths are one of the best tarpit/bully units in the game, especially when taken in the formation that hands out reanimation protocals. Flayed Ones have a whole host of attacks and shred! A horde of 20 Flayed Ones will slaughter a horde of 40 Ork Boys on the charge, so you can easily use them as deterrents. Praetorians can make a cheap and ridiculously durable (if slow) unit by adding a Cryptek and taking shields. Even a basic Necron Warrior unit isn't exactly terrible given how hard it is to gain combat rez off of them. Any unit without an AP (Assault Marines, Beast Pack, Ork Boyz) are unlikely to cause many wounds at all though your save, and then you just need to pass a Ld 8/9 test to stay locked in combat. Then all charge bonuses are gone and it will turn into a slap fight.

If a capable (usually elite, usually only elites have <AP4 weaponry) melee unit makes it to melee without being tarpitted by the many durable units you have to get at the fragile warriors, he deserves it!

>

Thank you for correcting my math. I averaged the two rolls. Lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I am not complaining about my army. Lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm also not complaining about yours. Lol

Davor wrote:
WAAA Waaa waaa. Oh look Necrons are cheaper than Space Marines for a measly I2.

OH give me a freaking break, Space Marines are already undercosted. Right there, just proves people are crying like little boys, playing an army that is already have the a step up from other units and still complain.

Funny a lot of people who already play an "easy" army or an army that is undercosted are the ones who are crying.

Angry, mate?

I love how you say Necrons are better than marines and still cost less and then say marines are under costed... I forgot the part where your dudes are better than marines and therefore extremely undercosted.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Davor wrote:
WAAA Waaa waaa. Oh look Necrons are cheaper than Space Marines for a measly I2.

OH give me a freaking break, Space Marines are already undercosted. Right there, just proves people are crying like little boys, playing an army that is already have the a step up from other units and still complain.

Funny a lot of people who already play an "easy" army or an army that is undercosted are the ones who are crying.

Angry, mate?

I love how you say Necrons are better than marines and still cost less and then say marines are under costed... I forgot the part where your dudes are better than marines and therefore extremely undercosted.

I don't play no more, just collect. I just find it funny the people who are crying a lot of them are the ones who have the "easy button" complaining.

Davor wrote:
WAAA Waaa waaa. Oh look Necrons are cheaper than Space Marines for a measly I2.

OH give me a freaking break, Space Marines are already undercosted. Right there, just proves people are crying like little boys, playing an army that is already have the a step up from other units and still complain.

Funny a lot of people who already play an "easy" army or an army that is undercosted are the ones who are crying.

Wat. o.o

I mean, if you're talking about bikers, or anyone relentless carrying grav, or guys coming with free transports, then yeah those are good.

The standard marine though? Absolutely not. There is a reason that people bringing a casual "tacticals with rhinos and maybe some assault marines" theme list without battle company bonuses to events get absolutely crushed. It's because the standard power armor marine sucks for his point value.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Davor wrote:
WAAA Waaa waaa. Oh look Necrons are cheaper than Space Marines for a measly I2.

OH give me a freaking break, Space Marines are already undercosted. Right there, just proves people are crying like little boys, playing an army that is already have the a step up from other units and still complain.

Funny a lot of people who already play an "easy" army or an army that is undercosted are the ones who are crying.

Wat. o.o

I mean, if you're talking about bikers, or anyone relentless carrying grav, or guys coming with free transports, then yeah those are good.

The standard marine though? Absolutely not. There is a reason that people bringing a casual "tacticals with rhinos and maybe some assault marines" theme list without battle company bonuses to events get absolutely crushed. It's because the standard power armor marine sucks for his point value.

When a marine costs as much as Stealer or when a marine cost 1 point more than a Chaos Space Marine how can anyone say another unit is under priced. Especially when a Space Marine has AISKNF for what free or one point? Really?

Davor wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Davor wrote:
WAAA Waaa waaa. Oh look Necrons are cheaper than Space Marines for a measly I2.

OH give me a freaking break, Space Marines are already undercosted. Right there, just proves people are crying like little boys, playing an army that is already have the a step up from other units and still complain.

Funny a lot of people who already play an "easy" army or an army that is undercosted are the ones who are crying.

Wat. o.o

I mean, if you're talking about bikers, or anyone relentless carrying grav, or guys coming with free transports, then yeah those are good.

The standard marine though? Absolutely not. There is a reason that people bringing a casual "tacticals with rhinos and maybe some assault marines" theme list without battle company bonuses to events get absolutely crushed. It's because the standard power armor marine sucks for his point value.

When a marine costs as much as Stealer or when a marine cost 1 point more than a Chaos Space Marine how can anyone say another unit is under priced. Especially when a Space Marine has AISKNF for what free or one point? Really?

No one ever said there weren't units that suck worse. Just because mutilators exist doesn't make every other unit in the game awesome.

There is a lot of crap in the pits of 40K uselessness.

I'd actually say regular Sisters are better than Tactical Marines since they can carry two Special Weapons. That said, anything else is fair game.