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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'd actually say regular Sisters are better than Tactical Marines since they can carry two Special Weapons. That said, anything else is fair game.

When those special weapons are either a flamer or a meltagun, Marines are better

 niv-mizzet wrote:
No one ever said there weren't units that suck worse. Just because mutilators exist doesn't make every other unit in the game awesome.

True, but when the shoe is on the other foot, you shouldn't be complaining then. That is just hypocritical. Should people stop playing Necrons then? That is how a lot of people talk that it's the players fault for fielding them. If that is true then these people shouldn't be fielding their Space Marines either.

@tactical spam
Actually I agree with him. I'd rather have sisters as my troop tax than tacticals. Two specials on a minimum squad means more focus, and lower cost means more army elsewhere. If you put them in allied pods with a combi sister superior, you can have a cheaper version of BA meltacide pods with the same output, and those are actually good enough to be a thing. Not superamazingawesomeestforever, but at least good enough to win me a pro painted knight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
No one ever said there weren't units that suck worse. Just because mutilators exist doesn't make every other unit in the game awesome.

True, but when the shoe is on the other foot, you shouldn't be complaining then. That is just hypocritical. Should people stop playing Necrons then? That is how a lot of people talk that it's the players fault for fielding them. If that is true then these people shouldn't be fielding their Space Marines either.

What? No? Maybe you missed this?

myself from 2 pages back wrote:and honestly the necron players shouldn't have to hold back. It isn't their fault the Decurion is broken. It isn't the other factions' faults that some of them get rolled without a dice-related miracle. It's the game designer's fault for sucking at their job and lowering the quality of the game at large.

The utter crappiness of tac marines is fully realized when analyzing the BA.

Martel732 wrote:
The utter crappiness of tac marines is fully realized when analyzing the BA.

In a vacuum, Tacticals are still good. In practice, they are not as good

Martel732 wrote:
The utter crappiness of tac marines is fully realized when analyzing the BA.

And yet, he's still better than a basic Chaos Marine.

 darthdaddy wrote:
3+ save gives you a 66% percent chance to save your wound. 4+ and 4+++ gives you a 50% chance to save your wound. Advantage Space Marine.

Did you do that math in your head?

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The utter crappiness of tac marines is fully realized when analyzing the BA.

And yet, he's still better than a basic Chaos Marine.

For BA, having a chaos marine would be better because of the option for extra CC weapon. ATSKNF isn't even a thing anymore. My squads die to a man in shooting.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The utter crappiness of tac marines is fully realized when analyzing the BA.

And yet, he's still better than a basic Chaos Marine.

And both are outdone by Plague Marines haha.

If Plague Marines only had access to Drop Pods...

People can play whatever they want. Its also everyone else's choice to not play against someone. I refuse to play low point games against an ImpGuard player who knew it was a warband/big killteam game, and took just hellhounds. It's about making the game fun for both sides. Do you feel like someone elses fun is not your responsibility? Welcome to being TFG, because this is a community game and you'll soon find the ONLY person who will play you is other top tier armies and, depending on your attitude, a lot of them will leave anyways.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The utter crappiness of tac marines is fully realized when analyzing the BA.

And yet, he's still better than a basic Chaos Marine.

And both are outdone by Plague Marines haha.

If Plague Marines only had access to Drop Pods...

I'm favoring Rhinos over drop pods at this point anyway. Drop pods really lack versatility and are actually a liability in maelstrom, imo.

autumnlotus wrote:
People can play whatever they want. Its also everyone else's choice to not play against someone. I refuse to play low point games against an ImpGuard player who knew it was a warband/big killteam game, and took just hellhounds. It's about making the game fun for both sides. Do you feel like someone elses fun is not your responsibility? Welcome to being TFG, because this is a community game and you'll soon find the ONLY person who will play you is other top tier armies and, depending on your attitude, a lot of them will leave anyways.

/thread

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The utter crappiness of tac marines is fully realized when analyzing the BA.

And yet, he's still better than a basic Chaos Marine.

And both are outdone by Plague Marines haha.

If Plague Marines only had access to Drop Pods...

I'm favoring Rhinos over drop pods at this point anyway. Drop pods really lack versatility and are actually a liability in maelstrom, imo.

I always want Plague Marines in the opponent's side immediately to get that delicious Plasma off. I don't trust a Rhino to live to T4 at this point.

Four plasma shots? Meh. The Rhino only has to get to one objective, maybe two, and then it is almost always a wall for you.

Is it weird that I like big squads of plague marines in rhinos rather then MSU? It seems like a good investment, especially against Necrons where they chill out on the roofs while my Plaguebearers summon and summon to cover the objectives

Martel732 wrote:
Four plasma shots? Meh. The Rhino only has to get to one objective, maybe two, and then it is almost always a wall for you.

It's 2 Pgs for 5 guys, plus I believe a possible combi, as compared to 10 guys. It's much more effective firepower for the points.
If marines could take special weapons like plague marines could, they'd be one of the best infantry choices in the game. They could saturate the board in PGs for anti-Mc/light tank armor and launchers for anti-horde, with grav to go after the absurdly tough choices.

To the OP, people don't really have a reason to complain. Hell, the people at my local store that still play, like my one friend that played with me the other night, have outright hated Necrons the first few times I used the new codex. Now he's like "Meh, whatever".

Yeah, if you're playing Wraiths, Destroyers, Orikanstar, ext, Necrons are decently competitive. But if you're not using those, everything else is just good. Very tough, sure, but not over the top in my opinion.

I've also noticed that people seem to have complained so much about RP, but that's the only special rule we have. If we can't have it, then Marines can't have ATSKNF, Eldar can't have Battle Focus, Tau can't have Supporting Fire, ext. Oh, you're not okay with that exchange? Then shut yo mouf, fool.

P.S. Quite a few people were discussing before the codex came out about what the changes should be, and agreed that simplifying RP into a FNP like save would be easier and still make sense. Well, it happened. Now those same people complain.

You act like ATSKNF is something that would be missed. It's garbage in 7th. The gulf between RP and ATSKNF is enormous.

Martel732 wrote:
You act like ATSKNF is something that would be missed. It's garbage in 7th.

If you say so. There's numerous times where I could've wiped a unit, only for them to run away (because I'm not catching them with I2) and they turn around and shoot and charge me again.

I'm not saying RP and ATSKNF are on the same tier of a special rule, by no means. I'm just stating it's not as garbage of a rule as you might think. However, you guys still have Chapter Tactics, which as I recall, all of which are pretty good.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You act like ATSKNF is something that would be missed. It's garbage in 7th.

If you say so. There's numerous times where I could've wiped a unit, only for them to run away (because I'm not catching them with I2) and they turn around and shoot and charge me again.

I'm not saying RP and ATSKNF are on the same tier of a special rule, by no means. I'm just stating it's not as garbage of a rule as you might think. However, you guys still have Chapter Tactics, which as I recall, all of which are pretty good.

Doesn't ATSKNF protect against sweeping advances? Or has that changed? God, it's been ages since I last played

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You act like ATSKNF is something that would be missed. It's garbage in 7th.

If you say so. There's numerous times where I could've wiped a unit, only for them to run away (because I'm not catching them with I2) and they turn around and shoot and charge me again.

I'm not saying RP and ATSKNF are on the same tier of a special rule, by no means. I'm just stating it's not as garbage of a rule as you might think. However, you guys still have Chapter Tactics, which as I recall, all of which are pretty good.

Doesn't ATSKNF protect against sweeping advances? Or has that changed? God, it's been ages since I last played

It does. If they get caught, they just become Fearless and stay in combat.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
You act like ATSKNF is something that would be missed. It's garbage in 7th.

If you say so. There's numerous times where I could've wiped a unit, only for them to run away (because I'm not catching them with I2) and they turn around and shoot and charge me again.

I'm not saying RP and ATSKNF are on the same tier of a special rule, by no means. I'm just stating it's not as garbage of a rule as you might think. However, you guys still have Chapter Tactics, which as I recall, all of which are pretty good.

Doesn't ATSKNF protect against sweeping advances? Or has that changed? God, it's been ages since I last played

It does. If they get caught, they just become Fearless and stay in combat.

'And They Shall Know No Fairness' also gives outright immunity to the 'Fear' usr as well, which is a huge deal for an army like Daemons as army-wide Fear is one of our big things.



As for everyone else getting their own unique special rules... Chaos Marines don't, unless you count community-wide "Veternas of the Long Wait" on a new and playable codex as being worthwhile.

I dislike it because it makes Necrons far too tough in combination with the other rules in the codex. I had a recent tournament game with my White Scars taking on a Decurion army in a kill points mission. I seriously had to consider whether it was worth setting up for the game.

When 80% of your 1850 pts army fires at and then assaults a unit of "buffed up" Wraiths and causes 2 whole wounds, it is pretty demoralising in a game.

Yes, the Decurion and Necrons can be beat in objective missions due to lack of objective secured, but even when I beat a Decurion, I generally don't enjoy the game. It will generally consist of running away so that I can survive long enough to claim the objectives. In most games, it is not worth trying to shoot at them as it causes very little effect.

 corrm wrote:
I dislike it because it makes Necrons far too tough in combination with the other rules in the codex. I had a recent tournament game with my White Scars taking on a Decurion army in a kill points mission. I seriously had to consider whether it was worth setting up for the game.

When 80% of your 1850 pts army fires at and then assaults a unit of "buffed up" Wraiths and causes 2 whole wounds, it is pretty demoralising in a game.

Yes, the Decurion and Necrons can be beat in objective missions due to lack of objective secured, but even when I beat a Decurion, I generally don't enjoy the game. It will generally consist of running away so that I can survive long enough to claim the objectives. In most games, it is not worth trying to shoot at them as it causes very little effect.

But that's their shtick. I personally don't like fighting against Eldar or Admech where they pretty much never need to even roll to hit as everything is God tier Ballistic Skill with rerolls. Or Space Marines with their alpha strike capability which is highly annoying and you can do very little against it.

I only have an issue with it when it's granted the bonus due to the formation. at a 5 up its ok, but 4 plus army wide and the ability to give it to wraiths in certain conditions. As for ATSNKF, it's a good rule but most of the bonuses are related to CC, where marines don't want to be in generally and which is at an all time low game wise.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 corrm wrote:
I dislike it because it makes Necrons far too tough in combination with the other rules in the codex. I had a recent tournament game with my White Scars taking on a Decurion army in a kill points mission. I seriously had to consider whether it was worth setting up for the game.

When 80% of your 1850 pts army fires at and then assaults a unit of "buffed up" Wraiths and causes 2 whole wounds, it is pretty demoralising in a game.

Yes, the Decurion and Necrons can be beat in objective missions due to lack of objective secured, but even when I beat a Decurion, I generally don't enjoy the game. It will generally consist of running away so that I can survive long enough to claim the objectives. In most games, it is not worth trying to shoot at them as it causes very little effect.

But that's their shtick. I personally don't like fighting against Eldar or Admech where they pretty much never need to even roll to hit as everything is God tier Ballistic Skill with rerolls. Or Space Marines with their alpha strike capability which is highly annoying and you can do very little against it.

Other armies can certainly provide tougher battles, but the Necron Decurion is the only army I face where my games feel absolutely hopeless. In the game I was talking about, I calculated (afterwards) that I would need to do over 200 wounds to his one Wraith unit in order to wipe it out. There are very few armies out there that would need that kind of firepower to kill a single unit.

 corrm wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 corrm wrote:
I dislike it because it makes Necrons far too tough in combination with the other rules in the codex. I had a recent tournament game with my White Scars taking on a Decurion army in a kill points mission. I seriously had to consider whether it was worth setting up for the game.

When 80% of your 1850 pts army fires at and then assaults a unit of "buffed up" Wraiths and causes 2 whole wounds, it is pretty demoralising in a game.

Yes, the Decurion and Necrons can be beat in objective missions due to lack of objective secured, but even when I beat a Decurion, I generally don't enjoy the game. It will generally consist of running away so that I can survive long enough to claim the objectives. In most games, it is not worth trying to shoot at them as it causes very little effect.

But that's their shtick. I personally don't like fighting against Eldar or Admech where they pretty much never need to even roll to hit as everything is God tier Ballistic Skill with rerolls. Or Space Marines with their alpha strike capability which is highly annoying and you can do very little against it.

Other armies can certainly provide tougher battles, but the Necron Decurion is the only army I face where my games feel absolutely hopeless. In the game I was talking about, I calculated (afterwards) that I would need to do over 200 wounds to his one Wraith unit in order to wipe it out. There are very few armies out there that would need that kind of firepower to kill a single unit.

*shrugs* Any army with access to Invisibility...

ITC rules nerf invisibility, and Tau have ways to counter it.

I am not aware of any set of house rules that nerf wraiths in any way.

Akiasura wrote:
ITC rules nerf invisibility, and Tau have ways to counter it.

I am not aware of any set of house rules that nerf wraiths in any way.

I also don't play anywhere where they adopt ITC rules.

And the Canoptek Harvest debate nerfs what they could potentially be. But otherwise, no. Mainly because Wraiths aren't as good as people say.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 corrm wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 corrm wrote:
I dislike it because it makes Necrons far too tough in combination with the other rules in the codex. I had a recent tournament game with my White Scars taking on a Decurion army in a kill points mission. I seriously had to consider whether it was worth setting up for the game.

When 80% of your 1850 pts army fires at and then assaults a unit of "buffed up" Wraiths and causes 2 whole wounds, it is pretty demoralising in a game.

Yes, the Decurion and Necrons can be beat in objective missions due to lack of objective secured, but even when I beat a Decurion, I generally don't enjoy the game. It will generally consist of running away so that I can survive long enough to claim the objectives. In most games, it is not worth trying to shoot at them as it causes very little effect.

But that's their shtick. I personally don't like fighting against Eldar or Admech where they pretty much never need to even roll to hit as everything is God tier Ballistic Skill with rerolls. Or Space Marines with their alpha strike capability which is highly annoying and you can do very little against it.

Other armies can certainly provide tougher battles, but the Necron Decurion is the only army I face where my games feel absolutely hopeless. In the game I was talking about, I calculated (afterwards) that I would need to do over 200 wounds to his one Wraith unit in order to wipe it out. There are very few armies out there that would need that kind of firepower to kill a single unit.

*shrugs* Any army with access to Invisibility...

I'm not saying other armies don't have access to buffs such as invisibility, but most of these can be countered in some way. These armies are equally annoying to go up against.
However, the question was why people dislike the reanimation protocol and I dislike it because of how durable it can make the Necrons in addition to some other buffs from the codex (such as Decurion and resurrection orb).

Also, invisibility is not as powerful as having a 3+ invulnerable save and a 4+ re-rollable reanimation save (if an orb is used).