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Even in a non ITC invisibility is not a guarantee outside of chaos armies from Belakor. You have to roll for it and always take the chance of not getting it. Necrons bonuses and strengths are all guarantees.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
ITC rules nerf invisibility, and Tau have ways to counter it.

I am not aware of any set of house rules that nerf wraiths in any way.

I also don't play anywhere where they adopt ITC rules.

This will obviously color perception quite a bit, which is why I thought to mention it. If you adopt ITC rules, invisibility is certainly strong, but not the overpowered broken spell it is in the core game. Some of the other psyker powers become nearly as good.
Same thing with many of the deathstar builds. Wraiths go from being weaker to all of the other deathstars by a huge margin to about average to above average for deathstars.

 krodarklorr wrote:

And the Canoptek Harvest debate nerfs what they could potentially be. But otherwise, no. Mainly because Wraiths aren't as good as people say.

I'm unaware of any debate involving nerfs. What nerfs are being bandied about?
In ITC rules, I find wraiths to be one of the strongest units in the game. Without access to invis or 2++ re-rollables, wraiths suddenly seem like an above average deathstar you can spam.
Without ITC rules, sure. Wraiths are probably average at best for death stars, though still very hard to dislodge for any unit that isn't spamming grav, scat lasers, GMC, or is a deathstar themselves.

Most chapter tactics are poor. BA are especially poor. And once again, I'm not losing assaults. Because assaults aren't happening. My opponents' shooting phases prevent it.

 corrm wrote:

Also, invisibility is not as powerful as having a 3+ invulnerable save and a 4+ re-rollable reanimation save (if an orb is used).

I assume you're talking about the Wraiths. Kill the Spyder first. Problem solved. Then they become T5 with a 3+ invuln. Dedicate some firepower and it gets rid of their effectiveness.

Also, if they have an Orb attached to the unit, then you're playing a cheesemonger anyway, because that's extremely wonky in my eyes. Either way, get rid of the Spyder and it no longer matters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Akiasura wrote:

I'm unaware of any debate involving nerfs. What nerfs are being bandied about?
In ITC rules, I find wraiths to be one of the strongest units in the game. Without access to invis or 2++ re-rollables, wraiths suddenly seem like an above average deathstar you can spam.
Without ITC rules, sure. Wraiths are probably average at best for death stars, though still very hard to dislodge for any unit that isn't spamming grav, scat lasers, GMC, or is a deathstar themselves.

Well, I don't know about the ITC rules in particular, but I can't always rely on everyone I play against to want to learn them and play with them. Plus, I personally, don't like to use anything unofficial. (Call me weird, it's just a thing I've always had.)

So, I can't say about how balanced it is. However, the nerf for Wraiths was mainly for the formation in general, which there was a whole debate when the codex came out about if you have remain within 12" for the RP buff, and whether or not you could take multiple spyders.

I personally think it doesn't have much to do with them being "unbeatable", but rather just unfun to play against as others have said. I regularly table Necron Decurion lists (but I was playing Eldar, so....).

I even tried out a Decurion with a Destroyer Cult and TWO Canoptek Harvests and pretty much got tabled in my area. And I should preface that I am at least a mid-tier player, having won a couple 1850pt tournies over the past few years. Necrons just don't fit my play style.

In competitive terms, I do not think Necrons are that great. Top tier, maybe, but very bottom of that tier. However, the Decurion is AWFUL to play against in friendly games. My 2 main armies have been Eldar & Daemons for years (since before either was considered "good"). If I was playing my Daemons and had to choose to fight against Eldar or a Necron Decurion, I'd choose Eldar. Win or lose it would be a more fun game.

 corrm wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 corrm wrote:
I dislike it because it makes Necrons far too tough in combination with the other rules in the codex. I had a recent tournament game with my White Scars taking on a Decurion army in a kill points mission. I seriously had to consider whether it was worth setting up for the game.

When 80% of your 1850 pts army fires at and then assaults a unit of "buffed up" Wraiths and causes 2 whole wounds, it is pretty demoralising in a game.

Yes, the Decurion and Necrons can be beat in objective missions due to lack of objective secured, but even when I beat a Decurion, I generally don't enjoy the game. It will generally consist of running away so that I can survive long enough to claim the objectives. In most games, it is not worth trying to shoot at them as it causes very little effect.

But that's their shtick. I personally don't like fighting against Eldar or Admech where they pretty much never need to even roll to hit as everything is God tier Ballistic Skill with rerolls. Or Space Marines with their alpha strike capability which is highly annoying and you can do very little against it.

Other armies can certainly provide tougher battles, but the Necron Decurion is the only army I face where my games feel absolutely hopeless. In the game I was talking about, I calculated (afterwards) that I would need to do over 200 wounds to his one Wraith unit in order to wipe it out. There are very few armies out there that would need that kind of firepower to kill a single unit.

You calculated that you would need to do over 200 wounds to one wraith unit, but was that the reality in the game itself? The Necrons are supposed to be a tide that never ebbs. You merely stave them off long enough to attempt some sort of win via objectives. While I find them difficult to overcome sometimes, the thrill of the battle makes it worth it. The despair is real and is what makes the game fun for me. When I pull out a win against them, which is probably 40% of the time, I love that feeling.

 Suicidal.Simian wrote:

 corrm wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 corrm wrote:
I dislike it because it makes Necrons far too tough in combination with the other rules in the codex. I had a recent tournament game with my White Scars taking on a Decurion army in a kill points mission. I seriously had to consider whether it was worth setting up for the game.

When 80% of your 1850 pts army fires at and then assaults a unit of "buffed up" Wraiths and causes 2 whole wounds, it is pretty demoralising in a game.

Yes, the Decurion and Necrons can be beat in objective missions due to lack of objective secured, but even when I beat a Decurion, I generally don't enjoy the game. It will generally consist of running away so that I can survive long enough to claim the objectives. In most games, it is not worth trying to shoot at them as it causes very little effect.

But that's their shtick. I personally don't like fighting against Eldar or Admech where they pretty much never need to even roll to hit as everything is God tier Ballistic Skill with rerolls. Or Space Marines with their alpha strike capability which is highly annoying and you can do very little against it.

Other armies can certainly provide tougher battles, but the Necron Decurion is the only army I face where my games feel absolutely hopeless. In the game I was talking about, I calculated (afterwards) that I would need to do over 200 wounds to his one Wraith unit in order to wipe it out. There are very few armies out there that would need that kind of firepower to kill a single unit.

You calculated that you would need to do over 200 wounds to one wraith unit, but was that the reality in the game itself? The Necrons are supposed to be a tide that never ebbs. You merely stave them off long enough to attempt some sort of win via objectives. While I find them difficult to overcome sometimes, the thrill of the battle makes it worth it. The despair is real and is what makes the game fun for me. When I pull out a win against them, which is probably 40% of the time, I love that feeling.

The mission was kill points, so I did have to focus on trying to kill as many of his units as possible. My army was pretty much wiped out and I had killed very few of my opponents units. If you are interested in reading about it, the battle report is here: http://standwargaming.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/rapid-fire-2015-game-4-white-scars-vs.html

Seventh versus sixth edition Necrons... Their shooting is nowhere near as good. Tesla used to be the very best for that sweet spot that can handle both infantry and most armor. I don't think they are as good in close combat either. They are okay but they aren't really winning any big events. To me they are an easy army to play that does okay if that's what you want.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
They are okay but they aren't really winning any big events.

WHAT are you talking about...

Seriously what IS he talking about? Also are you SERIOUSLY complaining about Tesla?

IT LITERALLY HASN'T CHANGED.

the only difference is that there is no Overwatch or Snapfire abuse of it's mechanic. How does that affect vehicles?

Snap fire was one of the things that made it so awesome. I remember shooting down two zooming Stormravens with one Annibarge.

It's been said before and it rings very true to me, Decurion Necron are just plain not fun to face. I understand survivability is supposed to be your "thing" but it does not translate well into game terms as something fun to face. And don't think RP is your only thing, gauss is a nice cherry on top. If I ever got a chance to face non-Decurion necron I think I'd have a lot more fun, 6 rounds of a game to take out maybe 10 models is depressing, hide and seek for objectives isn't exciting and outright sucks if the necron player gets to the objectives and just bubblewraps them.

My problem isn't RP in it's current iteration, it's Decurion 4+++. If Decurion had a different bonus, such as "RP can't be modified to be worse regardless of ID" then I think it'd be better. Crypteks make it 4+++ don't they? then in Decurion you'd get 4+++ all the time regardless of ID bet atleast you had to pay for a cryptek, rez orbs might see use aswell. I've never faced a 7th edition necron with rez orb cause frankly they never feel they need it.

Don't get me wrong, Decurion is by far not the only broken thing in the game, invisibility is balls to face and Eldar have a couple broken/undercosted units. I haven't faced the new marines yet but I hear people complain about their free transports. Across the whole game there are many things that need to be re-balanced, Decurion RP isn't the only one but I feel it is one of the things that are too powerful right now.

I don't play tournaments btw so I can't speak to that very much but if Decurion RP is the only thing making Necron competitive then other OP things need to be brought down and maybe a few buffs to other areas of the Necron army would suffice. Currently a non-optimized casual Decurion list is still wildly too survivable for any other casual lists to take on in my opinion.

Just my two cents, I want necron players to still be competitive and like their army but I also want everyone else to be able to enjoy fighting them aswell.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
It's been said before and it rings very true to me, Decurion Necron are just plain not fun to face. I understand survivability is supposed to be your "thing" but it does not translate well into game terms as something fun to face. And don't think RP is your only thing, gauss is a nice cherry on top. If I ever got a chance to face non-Decurion necron I think I'd have a lot more fun, 6 rounds of a game to take out maybe 10 models is depressing, hide and seek for objectives isn't exciting and outright sucks if the necron player gets to the objectives and just bubblewraps them.

My problem isn't RP in it's current iteration, it's Decurion 4+++. If Decurion had a different bonus, such as "RP can't be modified to be worse regardless of ID" then I think it'd be better. Crypteks make it 4+++ don't they? then in Decurion you'd get 4+++ all the time regardless of ID bet atleast you had to pay for a cryptek, rez orbs might see use aswell. I've never faced a 7th edition necron with rez orb cause frankly they never feel they need it.

Don't get me wrong, Decurion is by far not the only broken thing in the game, invisibility is balls to face and Eldar have a couple broken/undercosted units. I haven't faced the new marines yet but I hear people complain about their free transports. Across the whole game there are many things that need to be re-balanced, Decurion RP isn't the only one but I feel it is one of the things that are too powerful right now.

I don't play tournaments btw so I can't speak to that very much but if Decurion RP is the only thing making Necron competitive then other OP things need to be brought down and maybe a few buffs to other areas of the Necron army would suffice. Currently a non-optimized casual Decurion list is still wildly too survivable for any other casual lists to take on in my opinion.

Just my two cents, I want necron players to still be competitive and like their army but I also want everyone else to be able to enjoy fighting them aswell.

From what I've heard, competitive Necron lists are actually running 1-2 CADs with some formations thrown in. They hardly ever use Decurion in competitive settings, so take that as you will.

Because those bastards are virtually impossible to kill. Not too good at board control however. For this reason I usually beat them despite having probably only killed one or two complete units. Also; sweeping advance kills them. Thunderwolves FTW!

interesting that they run CAD Krodarklorr, it makes me even more curious as to what it's like fighting 5+++. I think in my next game I'll beg my opponent to not run Decurion so I can get a taste for what it's like.

Must be a meta difference in our regions Kavish but necron are the kings of objective control here. Advance 6" shoot, advance shoot, camp objective shoot. Since they never die we can't push them off objectives and it makes winning on objectives an uphill battle. In our group we don't have much for melee, and while sweeping advances in theory sound like a great way to take them out in practice it's proven very difficult since LD 10 on everything means you gotta win by a good margin to rely on a failed LD test. Thunderwolf cavalry seems like a good unit that could accomplish this. Sadly there are too few melee units I think that you could rely on for this and not every army has some.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
interesting that they run CAD Krodarklorr, it makes me even more curious as to what it's like fighting 5+++. I think in my next game I'll beg my opponent to not run Decurion so I can get a taste for what it's like.

Must be a meta difference in our regions Kavish but necron are the kings of objective control here. Advance 6" shoot, advance shoot, camp objective shoot. Since they never die we can't push them off objectives and it makes winning on objectives an uphill battle. In our group we don't have much for melee, and while sweeping advances in theory sound like a great way to take them out in practice it's proven very difficult since LD 10 on everything means you gotta win by a good margin to rely on a failed LD test. Thunderwolf cavalry seems like a good unit that could accomplish this. Sadly there are too few melee units I think that you could rely on for this and not every army has some.

From what I've heard, a lot of lists are just basic CADs with Tomb Blades for grabbing objectives (in maelstrom type games), minimum warriors in Ghost Arks, Zandrakh/Obyron/Cryptek as the HQ, and lychguard if they want to run Orikanstar. Then, they throw in a Canoptek Harvest or two.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
interesting that they run CAD Krodarklorr, it makes me even more curious as to what it's like fighting 5+++. I think in my next game I'll beg my opponent to not run Decurion so I can get a taste for what it's like.

Must be a meta difference in our regions Kavish but necron are the kings of objective control here. Advance 6" shoot, advance shoot, camp objective shoot. Since they never die we can't push them off objectives and it makes winning on objectives an uphill battle. In our group we don't have much for melee, and while sweeping advances in theory sound like a great way to take them out in practice it's proven very difficult since LD 10 on everything means you gotta win by a good margin to rely on a failed LD test. Thunderwolf cavalry seems like a good unit that could accomplish this. Sadly there are too few melee units I think that you could rely on for this and not every army has some.

Eldar have WK and then D-scythes. D-scythes kill Necrons real good.

Martel732 wrote:

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
interesting that they run CAD Krodarklorr, it makes me even more curious as to what it's like fighting 5+++. I think in my next game I'll beg my opponent to not run Decurion so I can get a taste for what it's like.

Must be a meta difference in our regions Kavish but necron are the kings of objective control here. Advance 6" shoot, advance shoot, camp objective shoot. Since they never die we can't push them off objectives and it makes winning on objectives an uphill battle. In our group we don't have much for melee, and while sweeping advances in theory sound like a great way to take them out in practice it's proven very difficult since LD 10 on everything means you gotta win by a good margin to rely on a failed LD test. Thunderwolf cavalry seems like a good unit that could accomplish this. Sadly there are too few melee units I think that you could rely on for this and not every army has some.

Eldar have WK and then D-scythes. D-scythes kill Necrons real good.

D-Scythes kill EVERYTHING well.

Ah I see the CAD strategy then, I find it funny that they don't run Decurion cause if I'm not mistaken the only thing they need is an Overlord to be reclamation legion cored right? Unless they go CAD so they can take MSU of Tomb blades which makes sense. Ghost Arks are amazing IMO and with one you can definitely get away without the 4+++ on warriors. And canoptek harvest... yeah that's a no-brainer IMO, every time I've fought it I've never been able to deal with it properly. I know many people just say "pop the spyder" but that isn't so simple if your opponent is a good player and can use LoS terrain.

Martel, yup D-scythes are good, as well as the WK. I'm sure one could go through a lot of codexes and pick out what units are good against necrons but sadly not every codex has solid answers and this won't always help you if you don't know you'll be fighting necrons. In our group we almost never know who our opponent will be and what they will bring (many of us have multiple armies) and so it makes it very difficult to make sure you have the right units for a necron matchup. Having said that I know that WK and D-scythes are pretty-much elder no-brainers, I don't have wraithguard though and I seldom bring out my WK cause most of my opponents are very casual players and I feel a WK may be too much for most of their lists. If I knew I was fighting necron in advance I'd have no qualms taking my WK out though, unfortunately this is almost never the case. It's not a lack of good answers in the eldar codex that's the problem, it's trying to make a TAC list for whoever my opponent will be that night (thinking casual games cause that's what we play here) and then getting pitted against necron where my TAC list doesn't stand a chance. Arguably Eldar is also a very top tier codex atm so finding answers to Necron in there isn't that hard. Now my CSM army on the other hand... yeah no matter what I've tried with that I can't even come close to a draw. I know triple heldrake is still supposedly our best answer but I don't have 270$ (Canadian) to drop on buying three just so I can attempt to be competitive against necron. I don't want to have to buy specific units/list tailor to put up a fight against necron.

Since the written word is very hard to infer intonation I would like to also say that I in no way mean to sound overly angry about the things I'm saying. Imagine it being read by Morgan Freeman in his calm wise-man voice. Yeah, that's about right lol

Yeah, except WK and D-scythes go in an Eldar TAC list. As you pointed out.

In a crazy twist, I've actually driven Necron players nuts with the archangel sanguine wing. It's not a threat to the shooty power lists, but it's quite good vs Necrons.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
Ah I see the CAD strategy then, I find it funny that they don't run Decurion cause if I'm not mistaken the only thing they need is an Overlord to be reclamation legion cored right? Unless they go CAD so they can take MSU of Tomb blades which makes sense. Ghost Arks are amazing IMO and with one you can definitely get away without the 4+++ on warriors. And canoptek harvest... yeah that's a no-brainer IMO, every time I've fought it I've never been able to deal with it properly. I know many people just say "pop the spyder" but that isn't so simple if your opponent is a good player and can use LoS terrain.

You need a minimum of 2 Warrior squads and a minimum unit or Immortals, which people don't like taking. And you can have up to 3 units of Tomb Blades in a Decurion, so yeah.

Plus, people usually want a Cryptek, but don't feel like spending the points on a full Royal Court.

 Inevitable_Faith wrote:
interesting that they run CAD Krodarklorr, it makes me even more curious as to what it's like fighting 5+++. I think in my next game I'll beg my opponent to not run Decurion so I can get a taste for what it's like.

Must be a meta difference in our regions Kavish but necron are the kings of objective control here. Advance 6" shoot, advance shoot, camp objective shoot. Since they never die we can't push them off objectives and it makes winning on objectives an uphill battle. In our group we don't have much for melee, and while sweeping advances in theory sound like a great way to take them out in practice it's proven very difficult since LD 10 on everything means you gotta win by a good margin to rely on a failed LD test. Thunderwolf cavalry seems like a good unit that could accomplish this. Sadly there are too few melee units I think that you could rely on for this and not every army has some.

I play melee heavy so I guess I'm lucky to be good(ish) at dealing with Necrons. I do however find Eldar very hard to deal with (never beaten them ever).

As a necron player, what kills me is sweeping advances. I get locked in combat, lose a model, i fail the initiative test because of initiative 2. i get swept. whole unit dead.

Thats a great way to remove necrons from the board. works great when you are a marine.

Naaris wrote:
As a necron player, what kills me is sweeping advances. I get locked in combat, lose a model, i fail the initiative test because of initiative 2. i get swept. whole unit dead.

Thats a great way to remove necrons from the board. works great when you are a marine.

But aren't basically all Necron units LD10? So you have to lose 4 models to get to the point where you need to roll below the average 2D6 result.

Hi. I'm a Tyranid Player. If I use anything other than flyrants, I'm the worst army in the game.
Hilariously enough, I have the most AP4 range firepower for some dumb reason. Pyrovores (lol), [heavy] Venom cannons, biovores, spore mines, Crone's Cannon, Miasma Cannon, One of our 'relics', Rupture cannon, acid spray, Impaler cannon, stinger salvo, and the thresher tail. Yeah... 12 ranged and a weird CCW. Did I mention there is a single 2+ save in the army?? GW you so cray cray.

StarHunter25 wrote:
Hi. I'm a Tyranid Player. If I use anything other than flyrants, I'm the worst army in the game.
Hilariously enough, I have the most AP4 range firepower for some dumb reason. Pyrovores (lol), [heavy] Venom cannons, biovores, spore mines, Crone's Cannon, Miasma Cannon, One of our 'relics', Rupture cannon, acid spray, Impaler cannon, stinger salvo, and the thresher tail. Yeah... 12 ranged and a weird CCW. Did I mention there is a single 2+ save in the army?? GW you so cray cray.

You can stomp BA with non flyrant-lists. MCs ignore all my defenses.

 corrm wrote:

 Suicidal.Simian wrote:

 corrm wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 corrm wrote:
I dislike it because it makes Necrons far too tough in combination with the other rules in the codex. I had a recent tournament game with my White Scars taking on a Decurion army in a kill points mission. I seriously had to consider whether it was worth setting up for the game.

When 80% of your 1850 pts army fires at and then assaults a unit of "buffed up" Wraiths and causes 2 whole wounds, it is pretty demoralising in a game.

Yes, the Decurion and Necrons can be beat in objective missions due to lack of objective secured, but even when I beat a Decurion, I generally don't enjoy the game. It will generally consist of running away so that I can survive long enough to claim the objectives. In most games, it is not worth trying to shoot at them as it causes very little effect.

But that's their shtick. I personally don't like fighting against Eldar or Admech where they pretty much never need to even roll to hit as everything is God tier Ballistic Skill with rerolls. Or Space Marines with their alpha strike capability which is highly annoying and you can do very little against it.

Other armies can certainly provide tougher battles, but the Necron Decurion is the only army I face where my games feel absolutely hopeless. In the game I was talking about, I calculated (afterwards) that I would need to do over 200 wounds to his one Wraith unit in order to wipe it out. There are very few armies out there that would need that kind of firepower to kill a single unit.

You calculated that you would need to do over 200 wounds to one wraith unit, but was that the reality in the game itself? The Necrons are supposed to be a tide that never ebbs. You merely stave them off long enough to attempt some sort of win via objectives. While I find them difficult to overcome sometimes, the thrill of the battle makes it worth it. The despair is real and is what makes the game fun for me. When I pull out a win against them, which is probably 40% of the time, I love that feeling.

The mission was kill points, so I did have to focus on trying to kill as many of his units as possible. My army was pretty much wiped out and I had killed very few of my opponents units. If you are interested in reading about it, the battle report is here: http://standwargaming.blogspot.co.uk/2015/11/rapid-fire-2015-game-4-white-scars-vs.html

Kill Point missions against Necrons are often a lost cause. I seized the initiative against my friend and dropped two battle cannons, four blastmasters, and some other heavy weapons into his line. I think I killed one scarab base.

Naaris wrote:
As a necron player, what kills me is sweeping advances. I get locked in combat, lose a model, i fail the initiative test because of initiative 2. i get swept. whole unit dead.

Thats a great way to remove necrons from the board. works great when you are a marine.

I mean...you have to lose the combat, and then fail a LD test, and they're all LD 10. It's not as likely as you'd think.

Martel732 wrote:

You can stomp BA with non flyrant-lists. MCs ignore all my defenses.

Grav? Check. Divination? Check. Better-than-I-2 Melee? Check. The cheapest MC will get rolled by furiosos or DC [dreads]. Death Company with a few fists/hammers hidden in there will kill a unit of fexes no problem. Nids have almost no defense against storm ravens. Jeez, krak missile devastators with an auspex are good enough. Heck, Dante will solo -any- nid MC, dropping it before it can swing, same with mephiston. Unless you're throwing vanilla fist/melta dreads solo against 3-strong fex broods, there is no reason BA should ever lose to nids with less than 3 flyrants. Heck, two squads of grav bikes will take out any MC in shooting almost guaranteed. Crazy mode? TH/SS terminators hare a HARD counter to every single tyranid MC. Ever since GW nerf-hammered the swarmlord into the ground, I just try to tarpit them with gants.

Also, seriously Martel, we all know GW gave BA a short stick. However, just because they didnt get a vaulting pole (Tau, Eldar) doesnt mean they got a toothpick (AM, Orks, CSM). At this point, I want to build out a full-on jump infantry BA army and learn to stomp face with it. Almost ever post of yours I see comes out as a "I'm derailing another thread with my BA whines, which while semi-justfied, I take out to the most extreme of hyperbole. A single grot killed my 9001 point BA army with a single shot; nerf Orks please".

On Topic Mode Engaged
At this point OP, it's all about people who like having their cake, eating it, then stealing their opponent's as well. All of the books that came out after Crons have been cringeworthy in their obvious WAAC-cheesemonger-powerbuilds. Necrons, Eldar, Tau, Space Marines, Dark Angels are all fan-freaking-tastic armies. They have great games against eachother from what I've seen. However, when anyone who isn't in the mile high club tries to get a first-class ticket, they get laughed off the plane. You can try to math-hammer who is better or what, but when it comes right down to it, GW's design team had a MAJOR shift in it's rules writing, and those who came before are being punished for it. Will something be done to bring the dregs a little closer? Hopefully. Will people still refuse to play against the Swarmlord because of PTSD from the glory days of Biomancy-Nids early 6th? Yes.

" doesnt mean they got a toothpick (AM, Orks, CSM)"

BA are at least as bad as those lists.

If you can't beat overcosted power armor losers with no truly good formations, no good ICs, no grav cannons, a terrible chapter tactic, and missing half the equipment from the vanilla codex with MCs, the darlings of 7th ed, I don't know what to say.

On topic: I still say RP is stupid OP. At the very least, ID should take it away completely.