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Martel732 wrote:
" doesnt mean they got a toothpick (AM, Orks, CSM)"

BA are at least as bad as those lists.

If you can't beat overcosted power armor losers with no truly good formations, no good ICs, no grav cannons, a terrible chapter tactic, and missing half the equipment from the vanilla codex with MCs, the darlings of 7th ed, I don't know what to say.

No good ICs? I thought Mephiston was the stuff.

Edit: I will also agree with the other guy and say you complain about BA in nearly every thread. Maybe they aren't as bad as you think they are, but you are bad with them.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" doesnt mean they got a toothpick (AM, Orks, CSM)"

BA are at least as bad as those lists.

If you can't beat overcosted power armor losers with no truly good formations, no good ICs, no grav cannons, a terrible chapter tactic, and missing half the equipment from the vanilla codex with MCs, the darlings of 7th ed, I don't know what to say.

No good ICs? I thought Mephiston was the stuff.

Edit: I will also agree with the other guy and say you complain about BA in nearly every thread. Maybe they aren't as bad as you think they are, but you are bad with them.

As I discovered in that one poll thread, I'm probably one of the few people on here with one list. That explains a lot, I think. If I were bad WITH them, my record in mirror matches wouldn't be almost flawless. Not to mention army swaps.

And Mephiston is average at best now.

Martel732 wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
" doesnt mean they got a toothpick (AM, Orks, CSM)"

BA are at least as bad as those lists.

If you can't beat overcosted power armor losers with no truly good formations, no good ICs, no grav cannons, a terrible chapter tactic, and missing half the equipment from the vanilla codex with MCs, the darlings of 7th ed, I don't know what to say.

No good ICs? I thought Mephiston was the stuff.

Edit: I will also agree with the other guy and say you complain about BA in nearly every thread. Maybe they aren't as bad as you think they are, but you are bad with them.

As I discovered in that one poll thread, I'm probably one of the few people on here with one list. That explains a lot, I think. If I were bad WITH them, my record in mirror matches wouldn't be almost flawless. Not to mention army swaps.

And Mephiston is average at best now.

Maybe you made a bad list so you can complain how OP every other army is.

@Tactical_Spam - that's unfair, as Martel plays Blood Angels, and there's no such thing as competitive, straight Blood Angels list

There are playable lists, less playable lists, and suicide lists, all of which will have reasonable win ratios against bad players or good players with toned down lists; but all of which will have terrible win rates against decent players with tournament-winning lists. They're all pretty unforgiving, and obviously inferior to their vanilla or dark angels counterparts.

And BA aren't the only faction in the penalty box....

I still love mine. If I want a little more power level, I just play them as vanilla (Blood Templars! Crimson Angels!) and pull out grav cents instead of cool-looking winged elites and marginal heroes. *shrug*. And if I want to tone it down, all I have to do is drag out more terminators, of which I have no short supply of

Oh please! Have you tried using death company and stormravens? Take two minimum scout squads and astorath as your hq (re-rolls to wound for DC). All the rest of your points are DC and 2 stormravens. Add 3 power fists for every 10 DC and jump packs for everyone. Don't waste points on any other upgrades. That many S5 I5 attacks remove the need for power weapons etc... Viola! Competitive list!

 Kavish wrote:
Oh please! Have you tried using death company and stormravens? Take two minimum scout squads and astorath as your hq (re-rolls to wound for DC). All the rest of your points are DC and 2 stormravens. Add 3 power fists for every 10 DC and jump packs for everyone. Don't waste points on any other upgrades. That many S5 I5 attacks remove the need for power weapons etc... Viola! Competitive list!

That doesn't sound competitive at all. I'm pretty sure even play Iron Hands I could take that down in a single turn of shooting.

back on the topic. Necrons RP, especially in the decurion is completely un-fun to play against. There is no way to actually negate the protocols like you can with FNP. Quite frankly, Necrons are far more durable than marines including Iron Hands. Gauss is also disgustingly good. At least it has been when used against me. Who needs special weapons when your stock weapon is better than the special weapons of a lot of armies.

 Kavish wrote:
Oh please! Have you tried using death company and stormravens? Take two minimum scout squads and astorath as your hq (re-rolls to wound for DC). All the rest of your points are DC and 2 stormravens. Add 3 power fists for every 10 DC and jump packs for everyone. Don't waste points on any other upgrades. That many S5 I5 attacks remove the need for power weapons etc... Viola! Competitive list!

Astorath is terrible. Moving on...

 Kavish wrote:
Oh please! Have you tried using death company and stormravens? Take two minimum scout squads and astorath as your hq (re-rolls to wound for DC). All the rest of your points are DC and 2 stormravens. Add 3 power fists for every 10 DC and jump packs for everyone. Don't waste points on any other upgrades. That many S5 I5 attacks remove the need for power weapons etc... Viola! Competitive list!

That list would have so few bodies in it... I mean yes you get a bit more durability but the opponents shooting also becomes more focused. It also ignores the biggest issue for assault; getting there.

Astorath is mainly there for the re-rolls (and fluff). In 1850 you could have 40 odd DC (counting the scouts, ravens and HQ). Stormravens and jump packs provide mobility. A smart player jumps from terrain to terrain. One should force their opponent into moving units into chargeable positions in order to get some shooting in (so only a couple of their units can shoot and therefore not able to kill enough DC.) Why do you guys always assume an open field?

Ps: I regularly enter tournaments with less than 50 models and always do fairly well. I came third out of 23 players in last years biggest tournament.

Yea I'm used to having less than 30 models on the table as well.... and I do play at my local store with a large amount of terrain. But you won't be getting a better cover save than armor save the majority of the time so as always its only worth it for those AP2 weapons.

I could beat that list with an Imperial Guard army. The only real way to stand a chance would be to deepstrike some of the DC while the scouts hug some LoS blocking terrain. But then the DC would be eating Wyvern pieplates like no tomorrow.

Martel can tell you better why that is a bad competitive list.

Martel732 wrote:
" doesnt mean they got a toothpick (AM, Orks, CSM)"

BA are at least as bad as those lists.

If you can't beat overcosted power armor losers with no truly good formations, no good ICs, no grav cannons, a terrible chapter tactic, and missing half the equipment from the vanilla codex with MCs, the darlings of 7th ed, I don't know what to say.

On topic: I still say RP is stupid OP. At the very least, ID should take it away completely.

Overcosted power Armoured losers? Double check, we can be swept, we don't automatically rally, we're not immune to fear, we don't get special rules and we have minimal weapons options.
No good formations? Check
No good IC's? Nah, we got a couple.
No grav Cannons? Double check, we don't have any grav at all!
Terrible chapter tactics? Double check, we don't get chapter tactics at all.
Missing half the equipment of vanilla Marines? Mate, we're missing half the equipment of BA!

Welcome to chaos. Or sisters.

While your complaints about BA are valid, saying that they're worse than csm is not. I'd liken it to a guy on crutches with a broken leg complaining that a paraplegic at least gets to sit down all day and gets all the best parking spots.

Deep strike? Hell no. I'm jumping up the table and assaulting on turn two. You'd better kill my whole army turn one because turn two it's over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess my point is any army can be competitive, they just have less army building options. If played some pretty mean CSM lists. Spawn with mark of Nurgle and endurance/invisibility. Ouch!

How are jump troops assaulting turn two? Bikes can but I'm not seeing how jump infantry can mange it unless the enemy moves towards you.

T1: They move 12", run.
T2: They move 12", charge.
That's about 34" of movement.

BAs have a lot of fun tricks. Against my lists, the BAs I've played have had a fair chance, and usually had fun (I'm a TFG at heart, and fight it, but sometimes I'm not carful enough). I've certainly lost to BAs and CSM.

When I face BAs I know they're not going to have the ugliest stuff SM can bring to bear, but in less competitive metas can do fine. They have lots of options that can do stuff.

For instance, you always bitch about DAs. Do you know what a podded Tac squad with a HF would do to them?

Or the +1 I formation, if Tacs charge Banshees, who would lose the shooting game anyways?

Or lots of MEQs for 14ppm that can outshoot the choppy and outchop the shooty?

Not competitive, sure. But they can be fun and goodish in many metas.

CSM are in a similar boat. They have a few nasty things (OMFG helldrale when I started. I played SM, and even tailoring I couldn't kill that thing.). But asside from a few shenanigans (Be'lakor, DP that magically always rolls +1T/-1Save, IA, Endurance), they are just BA -1. Sure, they're also 1ppm cheaper. But they lose a lot for that 1pt.

 Kavish wrote:
Deep strike? Hell no. I'm jumping up the table and assaulting on turn two. You'd better kill my whole army turn one because turn two it's over.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I guess my point is any army can be competitive, they just have less army building options. If played some pretty mean CSM lists. Spawn with mark of Nurgle and endurance/invisibility. Ouch!

If BA really could do that without catching 80 scatterlaser shots and then being spoiling assaulted by WK, that would be nice. As for your ig example, a few sacrificial squads make it so the game certainly is NOT over. In fact you should know that the turn after a successful assault is actually very dangerous.

I rank csm over ba because of more fw options and more opportunity to take units that have better than a marine statline. Everything that makes vanilla marines better than ba are units other than meq or formations that break rules. BA are stuck with marine stat lines everywhere and mcs whatsoever. As the other thread about mutilators unfolds, im finding myself jealous of damn mutilators just because they can kinda take a hit.

"But they lose a lot for that 1pt."

Really? ATSKNF stopped being a thing when Taudar dropped in 6th. The new plan A is to kill entire units to the man in the shooting phase. This has only gotten worse in 7th. In fact, because of the shooting meta, I'd almost rather my units be able to be swept so I can shoot the enemy assault unit on my turn. IG and Tau and such have done it to me enough times.

" but in less competitive metas can do fine."

Great. So BA can beat people not trying to win. Got it.

"Do you know what a podded Tac squad with a HF would do to them? "

Basically nothing, because you only clear 22% of your wounds. So if you cover 5, you kill one. And then you die. Such an awesome tradeoff!

"Or lots of MEQs for 14ppm that can outshoot the choppy and outchop the shooty? "

Except this never works in practice. They just die.

Normal rp for warriors 4+,5+++ that's a 66.5% chance to save the wound while a sm 3+ save is a 66% chance to save the wound. What bothers you is when it's a 4+++ rp or 75% chance to save the wound granted by crypteks at 65pts per model one unit only or army wide decurion which limits troop choices to select choices from fast attack and elite slots. I'm guessing your real issue is with the Decurion formation. Just ask your Necron player if they will play a non Decurion list. You can still play the old Necrons in Imperial armour 12, granted there are a few buffed hq choices and such but they fall down, and I still enjoy playing my old rules. Problem solved


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have the right to say NO to Lords of War, Forge world models and Deathstar lists and yes even Decurion.

While this is an off topic in the discussion, I must say I am agree with Martel more or less on this.

I don't fear them or even worry about them with any of my armies when BA are my enemies. Often it is just a turkey shoot.
I find myself thinking how much shooting will it take to table this person.

Might not be fair to think that way, but it is just how I feel. To me, chaos anything poses more of a threat to me I think. My IH are pretty bad when compared to the rest of the other marines with the exception of BA. The only reason IH right now are any good is their access to codex space marine armory.

Conversely, Necrons don't have to hardly do anything to be annoying and a threat. Yes, in a competitive environment necrons have to put thought into what they take and need tactics but they still need less than several other armies. It is for that reason I rank them just behind eldar and tau and ahead of space marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 darthdaddy wrote:
Normal rp for warriors 4+,5+++ that's a 66.5% chance to save the wound while a sm 3+ save is a 66% chance to save the wound. What bothers you is when it's a 4+++ rp or 75% chance to save the wound granted by crypteks at 65pts per model one unit only or army wide decurion which limits troop choices to select choices from fast attack and elite slots. I'm guessing your real issue is with the Decurion formation. Just ask your Necron player if they will play a non Decurion list. You can still play the old Necrons in Imperial armour 12, granted there are a few buffed hq choices and such but they fall down, and I still enjoy playing my old rules. Problem solved


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You have the right to say NO to Lords of War, Forge world models and Deathstar lists and yes even Decurion.

You can't say no in a tournament if the tourney allows it. Sure you can not play in the tournament, but how is that fun?

My issue for necrons without the decurion is this: they are as durable as SM, have a similar statline, similar pricepoint, and better weapons. Necrons for the most part with their basic troops don't need to take any upgrades. Their basic wargear gets the job done keeping them cheap. SM on the other hand pretty much HAVE to take upgrades to be effective at killing anything. This makes SM more expensive and once the special weapons are removed the unit becomes pretty worthless.

 Kavish wrote:
T1: They move 12", run.
T2: They move 12", charge.
That's about 34" of movement.

On a table that is 72" long. Still not enough to charge turn 2 unless your opponent lets you.

Akiasura wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
T1: They move 12", run.
T2: They move 12", charge.
That's about 34" of movement.

On a table that is 72" long. Still not enough to charge turn 2 unless your opponent lets you.

Yes, because you're going to start them right at your table edge...

Which still isn't close enough unless the enemy does the same or moves forward. If he deploys further back or moves you won't have a turn 2 charge

Akiasura wrote:
Which still isn't close enough unless the enemy does the same or moves forward. If he deploys further back or moves you won't have a turn 2 charge

Dawn of War is 12" deployment. Then you move 12" and run 6". That's 30". Then turn two you move another 12 with a 12" charge range. That's 42" + 12" threat range for charging. If they're lining up all of their models on their back board then maybe you won't get a turn 2 charge.

Glad to see another topic is derailed by Blood Angels

 krodarklorr wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Which still isn't close enough unless the enemy does the same or moves forward. If he deploys further back or moves you won't have a turn 2 charge

Dawn of War is 12" deployment. Then you move 12" and run 6". That's 30". Then turn two you move another 12 with a 12" charge range. That's 42" + 12" threat range for charging. If they're lining up all of their models on their back board then maybe you won't get a turn 2 charge.

on average it would be 12" move, 3" run (unless DC have a rule that means they always run 6"?) then 12" move and 7" charge. So you have a 34" threat range, over two turns.

And moving 12" in the movement phase means you don't get HoW or re-roll charge distance in the assault phase.

Add in casualties being removed from the front and you'll probably lose between 1" and 2", depending on how spread out you are to avoid blasts, from the first turn of shooting, too.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Which still isn't close enough unless the enemy does the same or moves forward. If he deploys further back or moves you won't have a turn 2 charge

Dawn of War is 12" deployment. Then you move 12" and run 6". That's 30". Then turn two you move another 12 with a 12" charge range. That's 42" + 12" threat range for charging. If they're lining up all of their models on their back board then maybe you won't get a turn 2 charge.

Let's be real, that's a 42"+6/7 threat range. No one banks on a 12.
So that's about 48 to 49. Still leaves them quite a bit of space on a 6' board. If you are playing on a 4' board, which seems small, they can still evade you.
So no, don't have to play that far back at all.

I tried to move things along.

For BA: no one cares about jump losers. They get shot and killed by real lists. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a few squads to do this. Oh well.

For Necrons: the Decurion is super duper frustrating. That's why everyone hates it. Having your list's schtick be "we never die and you have to completely rely on obj sec to win some esoteric victory" is going to upset a lot of people.

Akiasura wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Akiasura wrote:
Which still isn't close enough unless the enemy does the same or moves forward. If he deploys further back or moves you won't have a turn 2 charge

Dawn of War is 12" deployment. Then you move 12" and run 6". That's 30". Then turn two you move another 12 with a 12" charge range. That's 42" + 12" threat range for charging. If they're lining up all of their models on their back board then maybe you won't get a turn 2 charge.

Let's be real, that's a 42"+6/7 threat range. No one banks on a 12.
So that's about 48 to 49. Still leaves them quite a bit of space on a 6' board. If you are playing on a 4' board, which seems small, they can still evade you.
So no, don't have to play that far back at all.

And if they're not hugging terrain, they're gonna have a bunch of AP 2/3 coming their way, making their Turn 2 charge irrelevant when they're all dead.

Martel732 wrote:
I tried to move things along.

For BA: no one cares about jump losers. They get shot and killed by real lists. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a few squads to do this. Oh well.

For Necrons: the Decurion is super duper frustrating. That's why everyone hates it. Having your list's schtick be "we never die and you have to completely rely on obj sec to win some esoteric victory" is going to upset a lot of people.

Eh. I'd rather have that chance than have all of my super expensive stuff be shot to bits by D-weapons or stomped out of existence with no way to counter it. Or be shot at with Alpha strike Grav...that you can't do anything about.

Necrons just take some more strategy to actually beat. Whereas the other heavy hitters in the game just, well...hit you hard. And of course you can't do anything about it.

Assuming there is terrain to hug that suits their pathing needs.

22% kill rate from a HF vs a DA?
T3 4+ means:
(1)(5/6)(1), or 80+% chance.
Cover 5 and you're killing at least 4.

I don't think anyone is claiming BAs are top tier. The claim that's getting flack is that they are worse off than CSM.

Do CSM feel like any less of a turkey shoot since the Helldrake stealth nerf? If they face 80 SL shots and a WK, aren't they at least as boned?

As for the charge range, it depends what you're up against. Some things can shoot across the board, sure. But most Necron things need to be within 24" of their target. If that is the ASM or DC, and there is no LOS terrain, that could be a problem. If not, then they have to move *up* to get to their target.

In the first case - they want to shoot the ASM/DC - they should only get one or maybe two rounds of shooting (close 15" on average, to 9", they back off 6" max to 15", shoot, then you assault).

In the second case, screening is easy. You should be able to assault on T2 at the latest.