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Ha, the mod only jumps in when WR guy lightly defends himself, ah well.

Dunno about the game, one side gets ridiculous awesome space marines, the other gets melty demons ( the guo is cool tho ). Now SEXY demons, I could get behind that! That would probably get x2 the whining

Tell me more about these "live stockings". I've always been intrigued by daemonic underwear.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

as for design, well : especially this is not wang/boob ration right? http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=football-kalee~hff001&category=fantasy-%26%0D%0Asteampunk~fantasy-football

or maybe this line: http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?category=fantasy-%26%0D%0Asteampunk~40mm-%26-54mm-scale

and one of yours http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=red-box-%252d-yrsa-the-accused~rbh007&category=artemis-blacks~%2Anew-arrivals%2A ,not like she is half naked or something.

............... http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=40mm-artemis-%28resin%29~hf4001b&category=fantasy-%26%0D%0Asteampunk~40mm-%26-54mm-scale why would she need a panties if she got a shield.

If you think people are complaining about your models just because of tits then you haven't been reading.

Scouring the internet and posting pictures of other models with exposed breasts doesn't prove anything apart from you not understanding why your models are receiving such negative reactions.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:
Well I'm disappointed. After removing live stocking from the entire site because it showed up the exaggeration of sales I fully expected to come back a few days later to pronouncements of world market domination at the very least.

Might as well have left the sales figures up if you weren't going to tell even bigger fibs

I shall have to make do with tales of just how many private messages and emails desperately asking for a PG13 version of this sexist dogshit have been sent.

(Oh and I appreciate the sharing of the demonwangs, we are happy to help even the score. We also have a couple of naked short bald guys, a naked chaos minotaur, a naked half ogre and there's a naked ogre on the way. Happy to help put a dent in the wang/boob ratio )

Thanks for your comment, live stocking was removed because it's not working with back orders (pre-orders), as for sales on SC miniatures alone, excluding board game pre-orders + miniatures (being on the back-order): here is a screenshot, trending:

https://gyazo.com/a5aeaa16b9299ffc87259f96aea65d95

Frankly, I would actually expect a bit more professional comment from someone how is also producing and selling miniatures, especially on the sales bit...

as for design, well : especially this is not wang/boob ration right? http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=football-kalee~hff001&category=fantasy-%26%0D%0Asteampunk~fantasy-football

or maybe this line: http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?category=fantasy-%26%0D%0Asteampunk~40mm-%26-54mm-scale

and one of yours http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=red-box-%252d-yrsa-the-accused~rbh007&category=artemis-blacks~%2Anew-arrivals%2A ,not like she is half naked or something.

............... http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=40mm-artemis-%28resin%29~hf4001b&category=fantasy-%26%0D%0Asteampunk~40mm-%26-54mm-scale why would she need a panties if she got a shield.

The priest forgets that he was a clerk.

Your use of the last two examples in particular just underlines your poor grasp of context and, frankly, quality.

I would really suggest getting a painter involved again. The coloured renders/masters are not doing you any favours, for this product or your War zone releases.

The Artemis sculptor is a different person to the Hasslefree sculpter. The two companies merged if I recall correctly.

Take a look at the beyond-awesome Viking etc lines under Artemis Black / Redbox. They're all heavily armoured or cloaked in animal furs etc. Theres a female druid who I desperately want for Frostgrave and a dwarf with a crossbow. None of them are naked iirc

(I'm not interested in this kerfuffle btw, I'm just excited because... vikings that look realistic yet heroic)

 LordOfSmurfs wrote:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

as for design, well : especially this is not wang/boob ration right? http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=football-kalee~hff001&category=fantasy-%26%0D%0Asteampunk~fantasy-football

or maybe this line: http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?category=fantasy-%26%0D%0Asteampunk~40mm-%26-54mm-scale

and one of yours http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=red-box-%252d-yrsa-the-accused~rbh007&category=artemis-blacks~%2Anew-arrivals%2A ,not like she is half naked or something.

............... http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=40mm-artemis-%28resin%29~hf4001b&category=fantasy-%26%0D%0Asteampunk~40mm-%26-54mm-scale why would she need a panties if she got a shield.

If you think people are complaining about your models just because of tits then you haven't been reading.

Scouring the internet and posting pictures of other models with exposed breasts doesn't prove anything apart from you not understanding why your models are receiving such negative reactions.

I think you are missing my point references are not just random models ... anyway, no point of having this discussion....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wulfmar wrote:
The Artemis sculptor is a different person to the Hasslefree sculpter. The two companies merged if I recall correctly.

Take a look at the beyond-awesome Viking etc lines under Artemis Black / Redbox. They're all heavily armoured or cloaked in animal furs etc. Theres a female druid who I desperately want for Frostgrave and a dwarf with a crossbow. None of them are naked iirc

(I'm not interested in this kerfuffle btw, I'm just excited because... vikings that look realistic yet heroic)

I like some of their miniatures, but I don't think that it's professional to make a comments about sales (and make accusations) by someone who is in working in the industry and have a naked, only armed with shield model in his shop... sorry that is hypocritical in my opinion.

and personally, think than miniatures presented by us are more classy than completely naked miniature , armed just with shield/helmet and a sword ... but hey they are not touching sci-fi (ohh yeah 40k! )style so it must be totally OK! Right.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

and personally, think than miniatures presented by us are more classy than completely naked miniature , armed just with shield/helmet and a sword ... but hey they are not touching sci-fi (ohh yeah 40k! )style so it must be totally OK! Right.

Hahahahaha.

"Let's promote our miniatures that are tacky, while bashing another miniature company."

First time I've ever seen this.

Thebiggesthat wrote:
It's a strange situation for those of us missing kickstarter items from prodos.

I would like them to take this sexist trash and sink it along with their shoddy company.

But I would also like people to give them money so I get my stuff.

The ultimate salt in the wound, would be if people get SC box sets before all the AvP KS box sets are shipped out. Lets hope this doesn't become the case. Right now I'd be happy just to see the barebones AvP KS box set turn up at my door :(

Hey WarZone, are you able to tell us if any pre-sales of SC will actually assist with AvP KS shipping costs? The cat is already dead, curiosity can no longer kill it.

"Today, students, we'll be learning how to alienate our customer base. We'll start with grotesque sexualization, and then move on to blatant insults towards the competition."

What an absolute trainwreck.

 Guildsman wrote:
"Today, students, we'll be learning how to alienate our customer base. We'll start with grotesque sexualization, and then move on to blatant insults towards the competition."

What an absolute trainwreck.

Arti was banging that drum about web tracker sales being poor and implying they removed them to hide the lack of sales pretty hard. He was going to get a response sooner or later. If you're surprised by the lack of professionalism, welcome to Prodos

Hindsight would say posting the raw numbers alone would have been fine, but even then, he's got people like me asking where the f**k our AvP stuff is while they pay to produce gak like this. It's a lose lose for Prodos right now, wouldn't want to be the guy stuck with the job of managing "social media" around this product release.

 Artemis Black wrote:
Well I'm disappointed. After removing live stocking from the entire site because it showed up the exaggeration of sales I fully expected to come back a few days later to pronouncements of world market domination at the very least.

Might as well have left the sales figures up if you weren't going to tell even bigger fibs

I shall have to make do with tales of just how many private messages and emails desperately asking for a PG13 version of this sexist dogshit have been sent.

(Oh and I appreciate the sharing of the demonwangs, we are happy to help even the score. We also have a couple of naked short bald guys, a naked chaos minotaur, a naked half ogre and there's a naked ogre on the way. Happy to help put a dent in the wang/boob ratio )

Poor form old chap.....poor form.....

I stayed out of this but I have to say I am deeply disappointed by Artemis yet again and from those that defend him in this page.

Like with fallen fronteerss, here, Artemis attacked yet another company that makes competing products with Hasslefee, he is an employ there and such behavior should not have been tolerated from the start, not attacking Prodos for replying.

To be entirely honest, I am amazed this has escalated here and in other forums so much, such sculpts are shown from many companies and are either brushed off to obscurity or have a comment or two, I am assuming its the well deserved bad blood Prodos has gained over APV and WZ (and a title name that means something only to the few of us that were alive when it was released) but still, it got way too much drama.

 LordOfSmurfs wrote:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

and personally, think than miniatures presented by us are more classy than completely naked miniature , armed just with shield/helmet and a sword ... but hey they are not touching sci-fi (ohh yeah 40k! )style so it must be totally OK! Right.

Hahahahaha.

That's an astonishing statement.

Regardless of what quality these minis is deemed to posses, I don't think even the people who appreciate the cheescake tit-marines enough to buy them would claim that they are anything close to the realm of being "classy".

I actually have a hard time recalling any miniature that I would consider less classy than the underboob terminators.

He did say "more classy" as in-relation-to. But I do understand your point.

 Guildsman wrote:
"Today, students, we'll be learning how to alienate our customer base. We'll start with grotesque sexualization, and then move on to blatant insults towards the competition."

What an absolute trainwreck.

Yeah, Hasslefree is really going down the drain.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

 Artemis Black wrote:
Well I'm disappointed. After removing live stocking from the entire site because it showed up the exaggeration of sales I fully expected to come back a few days later to pronouncements of world market domination at the very least.

Might as well have left the sales figures up if you weren't going to tell even bigger fibs

I shall have to make do with tales of just how many private messages and emails desperately asking for a PG13 version of this sexist dogshit have been sent.

(Oh and I appreciate the sharing of the demonwangs, we are happy to help even the score. We also have a couple of naked short bald guys, a naked chaos minotaur, a naked half ogre and there's a naked ogre on the way. Happy to help put a dent in the wang/boob ratio )

Thanks for your comment, live stocking was removed because it's not working with back orders (pre-orders), as for sales on SC miniatures alone, excluding board game pre-orders + miniatures (being on the back-order): here is a screenshot, trending:

https://gyazo.com/a5aeaa16b9299ffc87259f96aea65d95

Oh I'm absolutely sure it was removed for some other reason. The timing of it happening 'immediately' upon finding out that people can see how many sets of this you sold was just a huge coincidence.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:
Frankly, I would actually expect a bit more professional comment from someone how is also producing and selling miniatures, especially on the sales bit...

as for design, well : especially this is not wang/boob ration right? http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=football-kalee~hff001&category=fantasy-%26%0D%0Asteampunk~fantasy-football

or maybe this line: http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?category=fantasy-%26%0D%0Asteampunk~40mm-%26-54mm-scale

and one of yours http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=red-box-%252d-yrsa-the-accused~rbh007&category=artemis-blacks~%2Anew-arrivals%2A ,not like she is half naked or something.

............... http://www.hfminis.co.uk/shop?product=40mm-artemis-%28resin%29~hf4001b&category=fantasy-%26%0D%0Asteampunk~40mm-%26-54mm-scale why would she need a panties if she got a shield.

The priest forgets that he was a clerk.

Thanks for the advertising As others have pointed out, repeatedly, the problem isn't 'boobs'. You'e about 6 pages too late to point out we make miniatures that have breasts, in fact I pointed out that we sell fully naked miniatures so you missed quite a few there. We have a larger percentage than usual of female customers 'because' we sell realistic women, whether dressed or undressed. And yes, those female customers buy our unclothed women all the time.

The problem is that 'pinup' or 'nakedness' does not equal 'sexist dogshit'. Naked people exist, fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist.

You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.

Your AvP miniatures are great, sidestepping the awful handling of the KS, the miniatures themselves are very good indeed. Warzone seems fine, not something I've ever been into but looks well made enough. 'This' is sexist dogshit that I'm embarrassed to have in the hobby.

People make badly sculpted minis every day, there's small companies out there making sexist minis too, I haven't spoken up in public like this about any of them. You''re a large company, with a lot of attention, good and bad, because of the AvP KS. You'v also tagged it onto the dubious trademark for extra attention. 'That' is something worth speaking out against.

I can't be arsed to make separate replies, so if someone has a problem with me expressing my opinion because I also work for a miniatures company then tough. I'm not padlocking my lips because of my job. This kind of sexist nonsense belongs in the past so that the hobby as a whole can move forward.

I guess "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" doesn't ring a bell.

You cannot be bothered to reply in legitimate comments? ok.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I guess "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" doesn't ring a bell.

You cannot be bothered to reply in legitimate comments? ok.

It does ring a bell, that's why my reply pointed out that Prodos and I live in completely different houses as far as this product is concerned. Should Kev ever have a stroke and sculpt something as sexist as this nonsense then I'll keep my stones to myself.

And I did reply, just all at once, I said I couldn't be bothered to reply individually to the same people who whinged when I called FF out for lying. It's the same reply to all of you, saves time and space. This thread is about a particular product not your grudge against me.

 Artemis Black wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I guess "People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" doesn't ring a bell.

You cannot be bothered to reply in legitimate comments? ok.

It does ring a bell, that's why my reply pointed out that Prodos and I live in completely different houses as far as this product is concerned. Should Kev ever have a stroke and sculpt something as sexist as this nonsense then I'll keep my stones to myself.

And I did reply, just all at once, I said I couldn't be bothered to reply individually to the same people who whinged when I called FF out for lying. It's the same reply to all of you, saves time and space. This thread is about a particular product not your grudge against me.

You sound really bent out of sorts that someone can't achieve your level of artistic tastefulness in their product line.

 Artemis Black wrote:
As others have pointed out, repeatedly, the problem isn't 'boobs'. You'e about 6 pages too late to point out we make miniatures that have breasts, in fact I pointed out that we sell fully naked miniatures so you missed quite a few there. We have a larger percentage than usual of female customers 'because' we sell realistic women, whether dressed or undressed. And yes, those female customers buy our unclothed women all the time.

The problem is that 'pinup' or 'nakedness' does not equal 'sexist dogshit'. Naked people exist, fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist.

You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.

Your AvP miniatures are great, sidestepping the awful handling of the KS, the miniatures themselves are very good indeed. Warzone seems fine, not something I've ever been into but looks well made enough. 'This' is sexist dogshit that I'm embarrassed to have in the hobby.

People make badly sculpted minis every day, there's small companies out there making sexist minis too, I haven't spoken up in public like this about any of them. You''re a large company, with a lot of attention, good and bad, because of the AvP KS. You'v also tagged it onto the dubious trademark for extra attention. 'That' is something worth speaking out against.

I can't be arsed to make separate replies, so if someone has a problem with me expressing my opinion because I also work for a miniatures company then tough. I'm not padlocking my lips because of my job. This kind of sexist nonsense belongs in the past so that the hobby as a whole can move forward.

Exalted. Thanks for articulating very well what I was clumsily attempting to express a while back.

I'm also annoyed by Prodos' continued insistence that they're now clothing their models to 'protect the kiddies'. Nobody complaining about these is doing so because they're worried about kids buying them.

I am sorry but what constitutes a sexist sculpt and what constitutes nonsense is in the eye of the beholder, run many of HF sculpts on the "female armour bingo", of a well known site criticizing sexism in the gaming genre and you will get high scores indeed (if the sites view is right or wrong is debatable, but gives another perspective).

So no, I do not buy your line, ours are sexy theirs are sexist, they plunder well known IP we..... you what? many of HF sculpts blatantly use others IP.

You do not see me complain about either because I either don't care or like the end result, but I am expecting you to understand you have no moral high grounds in judging others for the things you and the company you represent do yourself.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
I'm also annoyed by Prodos' continued insistence that they're now clothing their models to 'protect the kiddies'. Nobody complaining about these is doing so because they're worried about kids buying them.

Yup. That's such obvious bs.

Why not say, "a lot of people didn't like the first minis so we'll be putting out a alternative line of more 'sensibly armoured' versions of the models"?

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
I am sorry but what constitutes a sexist sculpt and what constitutes nonsense is in the eye of the beholder, run many of HF sculpts on the "female armour bingo", of a well known site criticizing sexism in the gaming genre and you will get high scores indeed (if the sites view is right or wrong is debatable, but gives another perspective).

So no, I do not buy your line, ours are sexy theirs are sexist, they plunder well known IP we..... you what? many of HF sculpts blatantly use others IP.

You do not see me complain about either because I either don't care or like the end result, but I am expecting you to understand you have no moral high grounds in judging others for the things you and the company you represent do yourself.

I don't find our miniatures 'sexy', I don't find 'any' miniatures sexy. So that's definitely not 'my line' as you inaccurately put it. I also haven't mentioned them 'plundering IP' are you perhaps getting me mixed up with someone else?

You want to claim our miniatures as just as sexist as this then go ahead, nobody is stopping you, that's kind of the point. Someone makes sexist dogshit and puts it out in public they can expect people to come out and call it as it is. And boy has it happened here. I think 'moral high ground' is a little pretentious but giving me a dissenting opinion isn't going to miraculously make me change my mind about this project being sexist dogshit that embarrasses me and the hobby in general.

Now, as this thread is about this product not your personal grudge then perhaps we do the forum a favour and start a new thread if you really want to carry on talking about me personally or HF products, I might even reply. It's not like the internet is running out of room.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
To be entirely honest, I am amazed this has escalated here and in other forums so much, such sculpts are shown from many companies and are either brushed off to obscurity or have a comment or two, I am assuming its the well deserved bad blood Prodos has gained over APV and WZ (and a title name that means something only to the few of us that were alive when it was released) but still, it got way too much drama.

You're amazed that a well-known company cynically exploiting an expired copyright... for a game a lot of people remember fondly from childhood... to peddle porn-40k crossover models... got a strong negative reaction?

Amazed.

'Kay.

 Artemis Black wrote:

The problem is that 'pinup' or 'nakedness' does not equal 'sexist dogshit'. Naked people exist, fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist.

Oh so this is not "Ours are not sexist yours are sexist"

 Artemis Black wrote:

You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.

With this logic so should not exist fantasy female fighters with armour that would kill them if they moved, cannot be realistically attached on them or really have no point of been there.

I see no practical difference in your line and this (skill aside) for all terms and purposes for me you are a competitor dragging a rival down.

And I am expecting from people who represent companies to be professional in a public discussion.

 Artemis Black wrote:
Now, as this thread is about this product not your personal grudge then perhaps we do the forum a favour and start a new thread if you really want to carry on talking about me personally or HF products, I might even reply. It's not like the internet is running out of room.

Do you find it funny that the whole tangent started because you took a dig at Prodos over something not related to the product itself?

Because I sure do.

 Bull0 wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
To be entirely honest, I am amazed this has escalated here and in other forums so much, such sculpts are shown from many companies and are either brushed off to obscurity or have a comment or two, I am assuming its the well deserved bad blood Prodos has gained over APV and WZ (and a title name that means something only to the few of us that were alive when it was released) but still, it got way too much drama.

You're amazed that a well-known company cynically exploiting an expired copyright... for a game a lot of people remember fondly from childhood... to peddle porn-40k crossover models... got a strong negative reaction?

Amazed.

'Kay.

I honestly do not expect to be that many of us left that "fondly remember Space Crusade" its what? 25 years dead?, I said I think this name means almost nothing to most of the buyers base and I do not see than much comment on the Space Crusade part.

My amazement is it got that much comments for the sculpts, seen many such sculpts been advertised or mentioned here and in other forums or news sites and they do not get that many comments really.

 Artemis Black wrote:


The problem is that 'pinup' or 'nakedness' does not equal 'sexist dogshit'. Naked people exist, fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist.

You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.

In regards to the bolded part, really? So half naked fantasy models exist, but half naked Sci-Fi is sexist doggak? That hole in that logic is large enough to no longer be considered a hole at all.

You really seem to think that a different aesthetic from yours is sexist doggak. I hate to break it to you, but to most people outside of this industry, it sounds like you're arguing the difference between the nude photos in playboy vs the nude photos in hustler. "Well, yes, our photos are nude, but they are tastefully nude. Those nudes, those are just pornography, you can't even compare them!"

Most of the world just sees the pot speaking down to the kettle.

Edit: damn by verbosity, everywhere!

Well, as fun as this all is. Anyone else reminded of Nigels mother in the film 'Brain Dead' towards the end when she tries to consume him with that horrific 'come to mummy Nigel' line when they see the Daemons with the mouth running down their belly?

Obscure B movie reference I know (same director as LOTR believe it or not). I wonder if the sculptor had been inspired by it