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Of course, what would be nice would be a situation where male or female characters can be sexy or unsexy, massively strong or really weedy. It's when the vast majority of male characters fit one stereotype and the vast majority of female characters the other that people feel unfairly represented.
To tie it back to this, I guess part of the anger of the community is not from people saying 'female characters shouldn't be sexy' - it's from people saying 'oh my god, MORE generic female 'sexy' stuff?'.
^^ What this guy said.
Ultimately, I think it does wonders to lead by example. Hasslefree can stand on solid ground here, which is probably why Arty feels comfortable aggressively expressing his personal opinion.
With respect to this Prods stuff, I think it's cheap, easy, and one-dimensional. It's not for me, and if I saw this kind of stuff filling up a game store every time I walked in, I would not be pleased.
But remember that the table top games market is growing. There's more and better products being made every day. In a market expanding this quickly, some folks are bound to look for a quick buck, and theres pressure on every producer to find new ways to grab eyeballs and attention in an increasingly crowded space.
Do I like what Prodos has done here? Nope. But I think I understand where it comes from. It is a not-so-awesome byproduct of the table top gaming boom.
The bright side is that products like this are sliding deeper into a minority, and it exists now because there's so much great stuff out there already! Folks who want this can get it, but folks who want nothing to do with it can absolutely get products they feel better supporting.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/19 18:05:57
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
Of course, what would be nice would be a situation where male or female characters can be sexy or unsexy, massively strong or really weedy. It's when the vast majority of male characters fit one stereotype and the vast majority of female characters the other that people feel unfairly represented.
To tie it back to this, I guess part of the anger of the community is not from people saying 'female characters shouldn't be sexy' - it's from people saying 'oh my god, MORE generic female 'sexy' stuff?'.
^^ What this guy said.
Ultimately, I think it does wonders to lead by example. Hasslefree can stand on solid ground here, which is probably why Arty feels comfortable aggressively expressing his personal opinion.
With respect to this Prods stuff, I think it's cheap, easy, and one-dimensional. It's not for me, and if I saw this kind of stuff filling up a game store every time I walked in, I would not be pleased.
But remember that the table top games market is growing. There's more and better products being made every day. In a market expanding this quickly, some folks are bound to look for a quick buck, and theres pressure on every producer to find new ways to grab eyeballs and attention in an increasingly crowded space.
Do I like what Prodos has done here? Nope. But I think I understand where it comes from. It is a not-so-awesome byproduct of the table top gaming boom.
The bright side is that products like this are sliding deeper into a minority, and it exists now because there's so much great stuff out there already! Folks who want this can get it, but folks who want nothing to do with it can absolutely get products they feel better supporting.
I must argue this point: I have seen little evidence that 'sexy miniatures', as a broad category, are a minority market of any sort, and even less evidence that they represent a decreasing market share (though to be fair this is complicated by market growth).
Speaking only of matters on kickstarter, my general impression is that miniatures that would be classified as (again, broadly speaking) sexy females are... well, not merely more popular then... hmm, what to call the alternative? Let's say 'realistic'. In any case, sexy outsells realistic not simply by a few percent, but by multiples.
As a fan of all manner of female miniatures (but with an admitted sweet tooth, so to speak), if we are to look at the matter at its broadest strokes it seems to me that sexy outsells realistic by orders of magnitude. Just the consolidation of two companies, Raging Heroes and Kingdom Death, and we're exceeding $3.5 million. Again, just those two companies with 3 campaigns between them.
Don't mistake me, I value realistic female miniatures very highly (I consider Dreamforge's offerings the very top of the line in this regard). Simply as a matter of extant sales data I don't think that we can claim that there is some vast, untapped market for the most de-sexualized female figures.
Buzzsaw wrote: Because men like to look at pictures, and women by and large don't.
Yep, right, of course that's totally it!
[/s]
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
I must argue this point: I have seen little evidence that 'sexy miniatures', as a broad category, are a minority market of any sort, and even less evidence that they represent a decreasing market share (though to be fair this is complicated by market growth).
Speaking only of matters on kickstarter, my general impression is that miniatures that would be classified as (again, broadly speaking) sexy females are... well, not merely more popular then... hmm, what to call the alternative? Let's say 'realistic'. In any case, sexy outsells realistic not simply by a few percent, but by multiples.
As a fan of all manner of female miniatures (but with an admitted sweet tooth, so to speak), if we are to look at the matter at its broadest strokes it seems to me that sexy outsells realistic by orders of magnitude. Just the consolidation of two companies, Raging Heroes and Kingdom Death, and we're exceeding $3.5 million. Again, just those two companies with 3 campaigns between them.
Don't mistake me, I value realistic female miniatures very highly (I consider Dreamforge's offerings the very top of the line in this regard). Simply as a matter of extant sales data I don't think that we can claim that there is some vast, untapped market for the most de-sexualized female figures.
There's a distinct difference between sexy and exploitatively sexist. Kingdom Death is by and large a different beast from this Prodos stuff here.
I think it's fair to throw cheap, one-dimensional, overly sexist minis into a subcategory.
Sure, sexy sells well. But if you look around the market right now we are seeing a rapid rise in anti-cheesecake representations. Reaper's catalog alone is increasingly filled with minis that aren't at all cheesecake. Just have a look at Believable Female Miniatures, Arena Rex, Victoria Miniatures, Statuesque Miniatures, Anvil Industries, Anvil Eight Games, Crooked Dice, and a HUGE swath of small produers. These days, you don't see tits and thongs every time you turn around. Even bigger names like Wyrd and Mantic aren't trading on T&A.
feth, in terms of product offerings sexy is a massive minority when it comes to table top games miniatures.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/19 18:36:10
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
More of my gay male friends liked Thor then my heterosexual female friends .
Much of nerd culture has homoerotic overtones that are appealing to homosexual men.
Just saying...
Not discounting the appeal to homosexual geeks, but my experience has been different. All the geek girls in my life LOVE the Marvel beefcake, and ate up the wondrous physiques presented in the 300 movies.
And are we pretending Arnold wasn't a sex symbol in the 70's and 80's just because Hybrid thinks his face is ugly? Come on...
DarkTraveler777 wrote: Not discounting the appeal to homosexual geeks, but my experience has been different. All the geek girls in my life LOVE the Marvel beefcake, and ate up the wondrous physiques presented in the 300 movies.
I'd have to echo this statement. There are so many of my female friends that swoon over the Marvel hunks. Oddly my wife isn't one of them, they don't appeal to her but she would be fine looking at Rain from Ninja Assassin all day. She would rather have more topless scenes from him and the only reason she will watch that movie. She does say the whole reason she can't get into miniatures gaming is because none of the male miniatures look appealing to her. In her eyes everyone are old, have beards, too much muscles.
At this I would think it would be better take the discussions, opinions and views on the differences between sexy and exploitative sexist to a new thread. Especially if we're going to bring in references from other companies, games, and miniatures lines to compare with one another on personal tastes, likes and dislikes.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/19 19:18:33
Very nice. I really liked this concept art. But are they supposed to be the same character? I'd prefer the crown in the drawing but can understand if it doesn't work well on the actual miniature.
More of my gay male friends liked Thor then my heterosexual female friends .
Much of nerd culture has homoerotic overtones that are appealing to homosexual men.
Just saying...
Not discounting the appeal to homosexual geeks, but my experience has been different. All the geek girls in my life LOVE the Marvel beefcake, and ate up the wondrous physiques presented in the 300 movies.
And are we pretending Arnold wasn't a sex symbol in the 70's and 80's just because Hybrid thinks his face is ugly? Come on...
I feel their is a difference between this and marvel beefcake. Marvel has plenty of hot dudes in their stuff. But they are never wearing anything or presented in away that feels like it's putting them on display.
These minis have holes cut into their armour to put them on display to be gawked at. Capt. America doesn't have huge parts of his suit cut out so I can get a better look at his ass.
A character can be sexy and still be a cool character. But the design of these minis are just so uncreative.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/19 21:28:13
I finally got around to asking my wife for her opinion: she thought the 'Mabs' daemonettes looked pregnant, and thought they'd appeal more to her if they were the same slimness as the Crusaders.
She's not interested in wargames though, so not sure if that's good feedback
Hi there, yes, we have been working hard in last 3 years to build and grow an audience for WZR, but surprisingly (and sadly as it's pointing out that MAYBE just maybe our design direction with WZR was wrong) we are selling more.
To answer next question : No we won't change direction of design for WZR, regardless of how good SC will sell.
Source is our web-store and retails newsletter orders...
I guess it depends on whatever "retails newsletter orders" means.
Lockark wrote: It's to bad WZR isn't doing well, I bought a ton of models in the kick starter but no one has realy touched the game. I only had one friend consider getting into it, but decided not to after watching the Beasts of War review of it. He felt the vheclies were to fragile were his words.
Hi there, thanks for your comment, as mentioned above, Warzone is doing well and it's growing, however we got two releases at the same day SC and WZR and SC is far better seller than WZR :(
Not to pile on, but it's probably best not to talk about sales figures when your shop uses live stocking. Your box set seems to have sold a mighty 5 boxes, so if it's selling "far better" than WRZ, and you think Warzone is doing well then you are far more easily pleased than I am
Bad form to quote yourself but it's kind of amusing that live stocking has disappeared from your website this morning. I'm sure that's just a coincidence
I think it means 'If we pretend it's selling well, we may get other people to pile on the imaginary bandwagon'
When you remove a function of your own webshop just to avoid contradicting your own story then I think it's a little past 'pinch of salt' time.
Artemis Black wrote:Well I'm disappointed. After removing live stocking from the entire site because it showed up the exaggeration of sales I fully expected to come back a few days later to pronouncements of world market domination at the very least.
Might as well have left the sales figures up if you weren't going to tell even bigger fibs
I shall have to make do with tales of just how many private messages and emails desperately asking for a PG13 version of this sexist dogshit have been sent.
(Oh and I appreciate the sharing of the demonwangs, we are happy to help even the score. We also have a couple of naked short bald guys, a naked chaos minotaur, a naked half ogre and there's a naked ogre on the way. Happy to help put a dent in the wang/boob ratio )
Artemis Black wrote: Well I'm disappointed. After removing live stocking from the entire site because it showed up the exaggeration of sales I fully expected to come back a few days later to pronouncements of world market domination at the very least.
Might as well have left the sales figures up if you weren't going to tell even bigger fibs
I shall have to make do with tales of just how many private messages and emails desperately asking for a PG13 version of this sexist dogshit have been sent.
(Oh and I appreciate the sharing of the demonwangs, we are happy to help even the score. We also have a couple of naked short bald guys, a naked chaos minotaur, a naked half ogre and there's a naked ogre on the way. Happy to help put a dent in the wang/boob ratio )
Thanks for your comment, live stocking was removed because it's not working with back orders (pre-orders), as for sales on SC miniatures alone, excluding board game pre-orders + miniatures (being on the back-order): here is a screenshot, trending:
Oh I'm absolutely sure it was removed for some other reason. The timing of it happening 'immediately' upon finding out that people can see how many sets of this you sold was just a huge coincidence.
Warzone Resurrection wrote: Frankly, I would actually expect a bit more professional comment from someone how is also producing and selling miniatures, especially on the sales bit...
Thanks for the advertising As others have pointed out, repeatedly, the problem isn't 'boobs'. You'e about 6 pages too late to point out we make miniatures that have breasts, in fact I pointed out that we sell fully naked miniatures so you missed quite a few there. We have a larger percentage than usual of female customers 'because' we sell realistic women, whether dressed or undressed. And yes, those female customers buy our unclothed women all the time.
The problem is that 'pinup' or 'nakedness' does not equal 'sexist dogshit'. Naked people exist, fantasy fighters who fought without protection exist.
You know what shouldn't exist? Female miniatures who go into battle with 700lbs of armour on their arms and legs but zero on their torsos 'just' to have boobs on a miniature. If you can't see the difference between that and us, or Kingdom Death, or other companies that make unclothed miniatures of any type then there's really no point in explaining it to you.
Your AvP miniatures are great, sidestepping the awful handling of the KS, the miniatures themselves are very good indeed. Warzone seems fine, not something I've ever been into but looks well made enough. 'This' is sexist dogshit that I'm embarrassed to have in the hobby.
People make badly sculpted minis every day, there's small companies out there making sexist minis too, I haven't spoken up in public like this about any of them. You''re a large company, with a lot of attention, good and bad, because of the AvP KS. You'v also tagged it onto the dubious trademark for extra attention. 'That' is something worth speaking out against.
I can't be arsed to make separate replies, so if someone has a problem with me expressing my opinion because I also work for a miniatures company then tough. I'm not padlocking my lips because of my job. This kind of sexist nonsense belongs in the past so that the hobby as a whole can move forward.
Artemis Black wrote:
PsychoticStorm wrote: Now for me Artemis behavior is more than offensive Calling another business a liar and demanding proof of sales numbers to back a statement is to me at least unheard of and his attacks on the "tastefulness" (subjective) of the product and the quality of the product (subjective?) are questionable since his company produces the same thing essentially, scantly clad or nude male and female figures in sexualised poses and illogical attire for the task at hand.
Dude, I'm totally fine with your last word addiction 'if' you don't keep adding new and random 'facts' to it. By all means, once again, state your opinion on whether or not we sell the same things, I've already disagreed enough, just repeat yourself if ya like, happy to let it go.
'But' don't be adding bs. At zero point have I demanded proof of sales, quite the opposite in fact. My joke was clearly that we could already 'see' proof of sales and that when I pointed it out they removed it from their site (and then claimed it was for a completely different reason). That would be funny to me in 'any' thread.
I have no interest in seeing any proof of sales of this game (and if I did, Prodos shouldn't give a flying monkey's tump anyway), to be honest seeing the small numbers they sold in the first days already depressed me so the last thing I want is to know there were more people out there buying this.
All the above were jokes and not direct or indirect attacks on the sales numbers and indirectly a demand to see proof tha the sale numbers they claimed exist and are not fabricated, to "jump on the bandwagon"? Sir I am sorry I misunderstood your humor.
More of my gay male friends liked Thor then my heterosexual female friends .
Much of nerd culture has homoerotic overtones that are appealing to homosexual men.
Just saying...
Not discounting the appeal to homosexual geeks, but my experience has been different. All the geek girls in my life LOVE the Marvel beefcake, and ate up the wondrous physiques presented in the 300 movies.
And are we pretending Arnold wasn't a sex symbol in the 70's and 80's just because Hybrid thinks his face is ugly? Come on...
I feel their is a difference between this and marvel beefcake. Marvel has plenty of hot dudes in their stuff. But they are never wearing anything or presented in away that feels like it's putting them on display.
These minis have holes cut into their armour to put them on display to be gawked at. Capt. America doesn't have huge parts of his suit cut out so I can get a better look at his ass.
A character can be sexy and still be a cool character. But the design of these minis are just so uncreative.
For sure, I don't disagree with what you are saying regarding the use of sex in Marvel character design and the use here by Prodos. I was merely commenting on the position presented by others that women aren't titillated by nude males and instead those images are only provided as a male power fantasy, or for homosexual males. In my experience that hasn't been the case. Women are sexual beings and hot dudes with muscles appeal to many women.
"I think they look sexist" could really be "I don't want to look like a perv" or "I want to sound progressive/superior". With things like this people regularly deceive themselves let alone each other.
And how is the result any different? If people aren't buying embarrassing minis, does it matter if they are lying about why they are embarrassed?
"I don't buy titty models because they are sexist and offend me" is not so different from "I don't buy titty models because I don't want to seem sexist and like to pretend to be offended." The minis aren't selling, and the cure for one issue is the same as the cure for the other.
Well, I've read this whole thing. Going back to the actual products, I like all of the bike models themselves. I like most of the riders, its wasn't their bodies that gave me pause but some of their facial expressions and hair. As for the rest, I don't dislike any of them, but I wont be buying them either as I have way too many unpainted models as it is.
As for the floating armor bits, I really don't mind them, but then again I'm a huge fan of anime and if I can get behind character models such as this...
or this ...
or even this ...
If I wanted to see real body armor, I'd visit my local police station or army training facility. (I'm a service plumber, you would be amazed at the places I get into).
But when I'm sitting down in my free time, painting to relax, I don't really feel the need for real life examples. Because I see those in real life every day. I want to enter the fantasy realm of my imagination, and in that place, full real life functioning armor is not a priority.
So to those who produce these cheesecake or sexy models/figures, I say keep at it. Maybe I'll even buy one or two someday when I run out of things to paint.
See pics of my Orks, Tau, Emperor's Children, Necrons, Space Wolves, and Dark Eldar here:
Buzzsaw wrote: Rather nice actually. I think that this rather nicely goes to support my point that the 'problems' that people have with this line are not really attributable to this (IMO, juvenile) accusation of "sexism", but that many of the originally shown items simply didn't live up to a consistent level of quality.
Same ditto.
I think the problem is the "uncanny valley", where the closer, but not exactly, something looks like a human, the more negative response to it. Despite how common it is to find a well-sculpted and painted female form, it's nonetheless much more difficult to sculpt and paint one, particularly compared to other miniature figures. Heck, anyone who's painted eyes knows that, even if an eye is the slightest bit off, this can ruin the look of a miniature, regardless of how well the rest of the miniature is painted. I haven't seen many posts analyzing *why* the sculpts are bad, because, I think, we are not conscious of the rules of how you can and cannot deviate from realism into fantasy before the figure looks slightly off, thus entering the valley. Nor, I think, is the uncanny valley the same for each person. Certainly in anime and animation, the human form is not always depicted realistically, and some people react negatively to certain animation. The uncanny valley is best known in robotics and CGI, particularly video games. btw, In miniatures, we regularly see miniatures intentionally in the uncanny valley: zombies. "One theory is that our experience with the uncanny valley stems from an evolutionary tendency to be repulsed by anyone who looks sick or unhealthy or wrong. In other words, “pathogen avoidance.”" This does not apply to these Prodos miniatures, of course.
Making an analysis of why the sculpts look "bad" complicated is how some viewers accept human features that are obviously not realistic, particularly proportionally. Large breasts are an obvious examples, but hands are usually proportionally larger on a miniature, and anime is well known for its larger eyes.
Of course, what would be nice would be a situation where male or female characters can be sexy or unsexy, massively strong or really weedy. It's when the vast majority of male characters fit one stereotype and the vast majority of female characters the other that people feel unfairly represented.
To tie it back to this, I guess part of the anger of the community is not from people saying 'female characters shouldn't be sexy' - it's from people saying 'oh my god, MORE generic female 'sexy' stuff?'.
^^ What this guy said.
Ultimately, I think it does wonders to lead by example. Hasslefree can stand on solid ground here, which is probably why Arty feels comfortable aggressively expressing his personal opinion.
With respect to this Prods stuff, I think it's cheap, easy, and one-dimensional. It's not for me, and if I saw this kind of stuff filling up a game store every time I walked in, I would not be pleased.
But remember that the table top games market is growing. There's more and better products being made every day. In a market expanding this quickly, some folks are bound to look for a quick buck, and theres pressure on every producer to find new ways to grab eyeballs and attention in an increasingly crowded space.
Do I like what Prodos has done here? Nope. But I think I understand where it comes from. It is a not-so-awesome byproduct of the table top gaming boom.
The bright side is that products like this are sliding deeper into a minority, and it exists now because there's so much great stuff out there already! Folks who want this can get it, but folks who want nothing to do with it can absolutely get products they feel better supporting.
I must argue this point: I have seen little evidence that 'sexy miniatures', as a broad category, are a minority market of any sort, and even less evidence that they represent a decreasing market share (though to be fair this is complicated by market growth).
Speaking only of matters on kickstarter, my general impression is that miniatures that would be classified as (again, broadly speaking) sexy females are... well, not merely more popular then... hmm, what to call the alternative? Let's say 'realistic'. In any case, sexy outsells realistic not simply by a few percent, but by multiples.
As a fan of all manner of female miniatures (but with an admitted sweet tooth, so to speak), if we are to look at the matter at its broadest strokes it seems to me that sexy outsells realistic by orders of magnitude. Just the consolidation of two companies, Raging Heroes and Kingdom Death, and we're exceeding $3.5 million. Again, just those two companies with 3 campaigns between them.
Don't mistake me, I value realistic female miniatures very highly (I consider Dreamforge's offerings the very top of the line in this regard). Simply as a matter of extant sales data I don't think that we can claim that there is some vast, untapped market for the most de-sexualized female figures.
I remember someone from reaper saying in their experiments, nude figures outsold clothed equivalents 4:1
Does this means that people are more interested in nude figures, or does it means Reaper sucks at making out good clothed figures?
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Herzlos wrote: I think they came to the conclusion the market for nude female miniatures was bigger than the market for regular female mini's.
Which it might be. I'm not sure if that's an issue. I mean, how many statues do you see of nude females Vs dressed females, or art prints?
People keep refering to ART and prodos work in the same sentence . Yes there are nude statues in museums around the world, but these are not in the same league. If these had been done well, then there would not have been anywhere near the backlash they received, but they were done poorly and with the infringing upon another companies IP (even though GW failed to keep it current ) it just leaves a sour taste in many peoples mouths. On top of all of that Prodos is Late delivering their Kickstarter pledges to a very vocal group (especially here) and it makes it look like they are not focused on satisfying their obligations.
LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13
I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14
That's what I was going to say; art quality is subjective and whilst we might not like it it doesn't stop becoming art.
Hell, I went to an art museum in Helsinki and one of the rooms was filled with Jars of urine. It's still art. My favorite painting is a solid black canvas in a gallery in Russia somewhere; painted purely because Stalin would hate it (because it serves no point whatsoever).
So you can't say Michelangelo's David is art, but Prodo's boob-window-power-armour isn't. Not that I'm saying Prodo's stuff should be on display in the Louvre, but it still falls under the remits of art, and some people like that sort of thing.
Miniatures are a way to express our own fantasies and dreams in the 3D world. Not really surprising if half naked girls in space are parts of them.
Not saying they're the only ones you can have - but if they sell, that means a lot of people actually like this kind of fantasy. It's not like they're dressing their girlfriends/spouses/sisters/daughters that way IRL. Or making war on a planetary scale just because they collect an army of Space (female) Marines.
Sometimes, it may be good to know where is the separation between fantasy and reality. You don't like those? No one is forcing you to buy. Like no one forced those who bought naked females from Reaper, Hasslefree or Brother Vinni miniatures. But there will always be people who think their virtue is stronger by denigrating them and forgetting their own "guilty pleasures".
Also, exalt for Jayden63. Anime Mecha Girlz are the best. By the way, Prodos, if you make a range of anime female miniatures in quite sexy and totally unrealistic armors, I think I would be interested as well.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/02/22 15:41:12
Herzlos wrote: I mean, how many statues do you see of nude females Vs dressed females, or art prints?
Ye be tryin' to fool who exactly?
Spoiler:
Noticed something? Hint, look between the legs. Yes, that's the difference between nude statues and nude wargaming models.
Spoiler:
Nude statues come in both gender.
"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1
Herzlos wrote: That's what I was going to say; art quality is subjective and whilst we might not like it it doesn't stop becoming art.
Hell, I went to an art museum in Helsinki and one of the rooms was filled with Jars of urine. It's still art. My favorite painting is a solid black canvas in a gallery in Russia somewhere; painted purely because Stalin would hate it (because it serves no point whatsoever).
So you can't say Michelangelo's David is art, but Prodo's boob-window-power-armour isn't. Not that I'm saying Prodo's stuff should be on display in the Louvre, but it still falls under the remits of art, and some people like that sort of thing.
1- art quality ain't subjective: there's certainly taste in art, but, well, concept and execution are qualifiers, and people who're actually trained know what to look for. Same way you can like or dislike a building's style, but an architect will be able to tell you if it gets its job done. Art as purely subjective is a way to avoid getting someone's feelings hurt.
2- creating something does not make it art. At it's core, art is expression, hence, while the black canvas might not have taken technical skill (well, actually, making a canvas is a skill, as is the application of paint, representative or not), it's still expression.
What's prodos expressing? What message of imagination or message or thesis are they trying to convey. Space boobies?
Making an analysis of why the sculpts look "bad" complicated is how some viewers accept human features that are obviously not realistic, particularly proportionally. Large breasts are an obvious examples, but hands are usually proportionally larger on a miniature, and anime is well known for its larger eyes.
Proportions in table top miniatures is always an interesting discussion. From our experience, hand size needs to correlate with foot size and head size or things start looking weird.
Incidentally, I haven't taken a long look at these Prodos models, but it seemed to me that the overall proportions are pretty consistent with other minis on the market, by which I mean things like torso length vs head size vs hand size vs arm length, etc. Within that basic framework, Prodos has started messing with -other- proportions.
Prodos definitely has sculptors who know how to make a well-proportioned gaming miniature. I think that's a given. Beyond that, it is an interesting question whether the stylistically-driven proportion choices have gone a little too far and made the models look 'off' to some people.
Herzlos wrote: I remember someone from reaper saying in their experiments, nude figures outsold clothed equivalents 4:1
I've heard that too, although whether it actually came from Reaper or exists as accumulated internet lore I don't know.
Anyway, I have no reason to assume it's not true. But my point was that in terms of product offerings, you see far less nude/cheescake models than not.
Regardless of whether nudes sell more, Reaper's catalog isn't 65% naked models, right? In fact, you have to go digging if that's what you are looking for.
Why is that if nudes sell 4 times as much? I dunno. Probably a question for KidKyoto. I've never understood how Reaper decides what models to produce. I'm looking at YOU anthropomorphic armadillo gunslinger!
Edit: HEY wait! Isn't the Armadillo Gunslinger NUDE! Let me see...YES both of them are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/22 21:54:50
Kirasu: Have we fallen so far that we are excited that GW is giving us the opportunity to spend 58$ for JUST the rules? Surprised it's not "Dataslate: Assault Phase"
AlexHolker: "The power loader is a forklift. The public doesn't complain about a forklift not having frontal armour protecting the crew compartment because the only enemy it is designed to face is the OHSA violation."
AlexHolker: "Allow me to put it this way: Paramount is Skynet, reboots are termination attempts, and your childhood is John Connor."
Herzlos wrote: That's what I was going to say; art quality is subjective and whilst we might not like it it doesn't stop becoming art.
Hell, I went to an art museum in Helsinki and one of the rooms was filled with Jars of urine. It's still art. My favorite painting is a solid black canvas in a gallery in Russia somewhere; painted purely because Stalin would hate it (because it serves no point whatsoever).
So you can't say Michelangelo's David is art, but Prodo's boob-window-power-armour isn't. Not that I'm saying Prodo's stuff should be on display in the Louvre, but it still falls under the remits of art, and some people like that sort of thing.
If everything is art, then nothing is art. Next time someone tries to tell you that jars of urine is art, tell them to feth off and get a life
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. Yes there are nude statues in museums around the world, but these are not in the same league. If these had been done well, then there would not have been anywhere near the backlash they received, but they were done poorly and with the infringing upon another companies IP (even though 
