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 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

Now, back on the topic, we are working on 2nd Heroine for armoured version of the board game (I need to stop calling it pg13 really). What is dakkadakka take on it?

Looks alright. I might be willing to buy some of your products, but not until after I see that AVP and WarZone are both entirely completed and all backers have all of their stuff.


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 insaniak wrote:

While it's certainly less silly than the bikini version, it still ultimately has the same problem of heavy armour on the shoulders and legs, and none in between. Particularly with the lower leg armour being so heavy, it just looks weird.

Honestly, I think that's nitpicking, considering what else we happily accept without an issue.






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 rayphoton wrote:

I've seen other forums refer to dakka dakka as a "pit of vile and repungant maggots" Warseer I think . And one of the nice folks on the reaper forums says he avoids this place cause its too toxic. We do have something of a reputation apparently.

Then again....

Creator Shieldwolf Miniatures about 14 hours ago
@Highlord
From all the forums we visit, Dakka is the one with the most knowledgeable (did I spell that right?) people hobby-wise, meaning they have the most knowledge in what makes or breaks a "good" miniature (this concerns literally everything from concept, material, support etc etc).
The comments over there are constructive, meaning they don't go out saying "the lions are not good sculpts because the leathers have been sculpted badly, rasta hair is silly etc" and other stuff we read elsewhere and consider nonsense, heck, if you can point me to more detailed lions in 28mm worldwide by all means, but if you simply don't like the concept don't be mean just for the sake of it, it doesn't help anyone... *rant mode off*, lol...
It was also thanks to comments we read from there when we had first came out back in February 2013 (3 years ago exactly) that pushed us in getting better and better.
The Dakka members are what in Greece we call "σκληρός μα σωστός" meaning "hard but just". :-)

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 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

Hi there yes, the main pack contains a rocket launcher, as for more models with a similar approach to other company miniatures, here are some concepts we have based SC on, made by a well know artist, that will be an expansion to the SC line in both, 18+ and armoured form. Thanks
please note: all you see here is just in a concept form, we will however have to do a round with our legal advisor to make sure we are not too close to some other companies IPs. Thanks

(pictures snipped)

Hilarious! Congratulations, you definitely brought a smile to my face there!


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 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Liking the demons and the bike

Don't mind the gangsta pose in this one, the only complaint is that the legs look a little short? They should be longer than the upper body
PS will there a bundle for those who want to have both versions? instead of buying the adult version and the kiddie version separately?

Spoiler:

Legs on this one look really weird. Like a satyr or something. - edit - looks much better in the 3-d rotatable render, at least.


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 Albertorius wrote:

You'll be needing coherent male sculpts for it fo actually feel like an integrated force. How about something like this:

Spoiler:

Looky here.


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 Buttery Commissar wrote:
I'm actually more likely to put my money toward a company that has staff who stand against the blatant nonsense of others.
I also very much doubt the majority of people tutting and admonishing Arty were lining his tills to begin with.

I'm somewhat in two minds on this - on one hand, I think Arty is taking it a bit over the top (and have wondered why the mods have left him alone without a warning, TBH) especially considering how many breasts Kev seems to sculpt and Hasslefree appears to sell - but I'd rather see him be as honest as the rest of us if he's going to join in on the discussion. While I think Hasslefree's stuff is far better than the Prodos stuff, I don't have any illusions that they're an attempt to appeal to "art" or have a loftier worth rather than appealing to the same prurient interests that Prodos is aiming at, and I find the suggestion that it is by Arty to be highly amusing. The Hasslefree stuff is just far better sculpted and proportioned overall while the Prodos stuff isn't quite there and takes a bit too much inspiration from Paolo and Rackham (underboob!).






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 Ratius wrote:
Im going to pick up a copy of "fierce in fur".....

Isn't that Dave Bautista?

 Azazelx wrote:

The Dakka members are what in Greece we call "σκληρός μα σωστός" meaning "hard but just". :-)

excellent! Quick, somebody get Lego to add that to the site title!

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
So, wait, they use the name of an existing game by Games Workshop, and then have models that are ridiculously evocative of Game Workshop license material, and this has somehow not been C&D'd out of existence yet?

"Space Crusade was never Games Workshop's name to defend. If Prodos were ripping off the designs of Orks, genestealers or Space Marines, then they'd be relevant. As it is, clearly Hasbro don't give a monkey's about a game they released a quarter of a century ago.

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

Hi there, shipping starters yesterday, once the status is changed to in progress it takes at max. 2 days to get it shipped out.

Well, been 48+ hours since you changed it to in progress.

EDIT: It changed to shipped shortly after I posted this. Using the tracking link (which is actually broken on both their webstore and the shipping email) says the status is currently that they've created the shipping label. It's not actually "shipped" yet IMO. Further updates to follow!

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
So, wait, they use the name of an existing game by Games Workshop, and then have models that are ridiculously evocative of Game Workshop license material, and this has somehow not been C&D'd out of existence yet?

"Space Crusade was never Games Workshop's name to defend. If Prodos were ripping off the designs of Orks, genestealers or Space Marines, then they'd be relevant. As it is, clearly Hasbro don't give a monkey's about a game they released a quarter of a century ago.

and given how many companies make interesting new orc heads Pirate orcs, german orcs, orcs with sombreros..GW doesn't really care about those either.

Besides the bolter guns....the only thing that evocative of space marines is the one shoulder pad...and its still different enough to nigh impossible to successfully sue over. See chapterhouse.

I think prodoss is pretty safe here

 Azazelx wrote:



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 Buttery Commissar wrote:
I'm actually more likely to put my money toward a company that has staff who stand against the blatant nonsense of others.
I also very much doubt the majority of people tutting and admonishing Arty were lining his tills to begin with.

I'm somewhat in two minds on this - on one hand, I think Arty is taking it a bit over the top (and have wondered why the mods have left him alone without a warning, TBH) especially considering how many breasts Kev seems to sculpt and Hasslefree appears to sell - but I'd rather see him be as honest as the rest of us if he's going to join in on the discussion. While I think Hasslefree's stuff is far better than the Prodos stuff, I don't have any illusions that they're an attempt to appeal to "art" or have a loftier worth rather than appealing to the same prurient interests that Prodos is aiming at, and I find the suggestion that it is by Arty to be highly amusing. The Hasslefree stuff is just far better sculpted and proportioned overall while the Prodos stuff isn't quite there and takes a bit too much inspiration from Paolo and Rackham (underboob!).

Spoiler:

I am starting to think it may be a ruse? look at all the free hasslefree "exposure"
Last facebook post is also very "artsy"

I don't think that anyone has said that hasslefree doesn't do nudes or cheesecake models, the difference between the two companies is HF makes models that are anatomically correct and good quality. Compare that last pic you showed with the figures from prodos and you see the difference right off the bat. If you can't see the difference then theres no point continuing to rehash it. People are frustrated with Artemis Black for his posts here, but fine, lets look at Prodos sculpts again and tell me they are a good quality sculpt of female anatomy. Yes theres a market for this drivel, but it doesn't mean that I have to like it, nor does it mean that I have to just tune it out. It offends me and I'll keep saying that. I have a 12 year old daughter and twin 10 year olds that I'm just getting involved in the hobby. I dislike taking them to the local game store because of the profanity that gets tossed around, and I have seen more than one army of models that I had to walk away from because of poor taste. There's a place for armies like this and it's not at a public store where someone who might bring their kids in happens across it. If you buy the PG 18 figures then for the Love of God keep them at your home or only take them to play at friends homes that would be okay with it. I've worked in 3 different game/comic shops when i was a teenager (20+ years ago), and even then there were things that should not have made it to the table, and we had to enforce that rule. I have no problem with people playing Kingdom Death:Monster, as long as it is not in front of my kids with the penis/ Vagina Monsters. Prodos wants to put this garbage on the shelf then i hope the shops that order it in droves keep it behind the counter with little boards in front of the naughty parts like they do with adult magazines, and I hope sales suck on it.

I'm sorry if I'm over reacting, but seriously this thread has had how many people wish it was locked now? I never heard of SJW until this thread, now every thread that shows a little skin or has breasts in it branches off into that topic. Thak You Prodos

I agree that Hasslefree's stuff is a lot better, but the fact is that Arty claiming that they're in entirely separate categories - Prodos stuff = sexist and bad, while Hasslefree's stuff = not? sexist and good..

I mean, they both are - or aren't. The HF sculpts are nicer and more realistically proportioned, and while some of the Prodos stuff is actually decent - a whole bunch of the Prodos stuff is completely ridiculous (forcefields FTW). But either way, there's really not a high moral ground on one side here.

No need for the thread to be locked either. It's ultimately just another silly internet slapfight that happened because Prodos chose to lead with their most ridiculous models (and haven't fulfilled their KS obligations). Just read it with popcorn handy and remember that you'll probably never have to see any of these models unless you choose to come into this thread.

 Azazelx wrote:
I agree that Hasslefree's stuff is a lot better, but the fact is that Arty claiming that they're in entirely separate categories - Prodos stuff = sexist and bad, while Hasslefree's stuff = not? sexist and good..

I mean, they both are - or aren't. The HF sculpts are nicer and more realistically proportioned, and while some of the Prodos stuff is actually decent - a whole bunch of the Prodos stuff is completely ridiculous (forcefields FTW). But either way, there's really not a high moral ground on one side here.

No need for the thread to be locked either. It's ultimately just another silly internet slapfight that happened because Prodos chose to lead with their most ridiculous models (and haven't fulfilled their KS obligations). Just read it with popcorn handy and remember that you'll probably never have to see any of these models unless you choose to come into this thread.

In various circles it's possible to differentiate between porn that's well done, or that contains positive reinforcement of progressive values, from porn that's poorly done or that reinforces negative stereotypes.

So, yeah, "_____ and bad" and "____ and good" are important distinctions to make.

But both are the same genre and should offend people offended by such genre equally, quality is important only if you care about a genre.

I would argue inside a genre that all levels of quality have a place and not all gravitate towards the "more refined" product.

I am with Azazelx claiming moral high ground on either side is ridiculous.

@ Theophony
Yes I am ready to receive the "you don't have kids don't speak" speech, but, isn't this stance overprotective? (or maybe unrealistic?) I hear more profanity in the roads and even more in the schools, I live near the schools of my area and the kids have more colorful vocabulary than I ever had, than in most local game stores. I also think that if a store chooses to sell a "mature" product and provides play space people that bought the product should expect to be able to play with it there, I would argue that everything in a wargame is more "mature rating" than "exposed flesh" depicted on not, but that's another topic.

 Azazelx wrote:
I agree that Hasslefree's stuff is a lot better, but the fact is that Arty claiming that they're in entirely separate categories - Prodos stuff = sexist and bad, while Hasslefree's stuff = not? sexist and good..

I mean, they both are - or aren't. The HF sculpts are nicer and more realistically proportioned, and while some of the Prodos stuff is actually decent - a whole bunch of the Prodos stuff is completely ridiculous (forcefields FTW). But either way, there's really not a high moral ground on one side here.

No need for the thread to be locked either. It's ultimately just another silly internet slapfight that happened because Prodos chose to lead with their most ridiculous models (and haven't fulfilled their KS obligations). Just read it with popcorn handy and remember that you'll probably never have to see any of these models unless you choose to come into this thread.

Just to say completely agree with both this and your last post

You could lump Kingdom Death, Brother Vinni etc as well - the sculpting & concept better or worse in each case, but ultimately they are occupying a similar niche, and the line between artful nudes and shameful porn is often grey and blurred (and in a lot of cases subjective)

skarsol wrote:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

Hi there, shipping starters yesterday, once the status is changed to in progress it takes at max. 2 days to get it shipped out.

Well, been 48+ hours since you changed it to in progress.

EDIT: It changed to shipped shortly after I posted this. Using the tracking link (which is actually broken on both their webstore and the shipping email) says the status is currently that they've created the shipping label. It's not actually "shipped" yet IMO. Further updates to follow!

The Poland PO says they got the package 4 hours ago, so time from in progress to actually shipped is about 3.5 days, but a box is supposedly on the way to me now.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
But both are the same genre and should offend people offended by such genre equally, quality is important only if you care about a genre.

I would argue inside a genre that all levels of quality have a place and not all gravitate towards the "more refined" product.

I am with Azazelx claiming moral high ground on either side is ridiculous.

@ Theophony
Yes I am ready to receive the "you don't have kids don't speak" speech, but, isn't this stance overprotective? (or maybe unrealistic?) I hear more profanity in the roads and even more in the schools, I live near the schools of my area and the kids have more colorful vocabulary than I ever had, than in most local game stores. I also think that if a store chooses to sell a "mature" product and provides play space people that bought the product should expect to be able to play with it there, I would argue that everything in a wargame is more "mature rating" than "exposed flesh" depicted on not, but that's another topic.

You get a right to speak even without kids, some of the nicest people that I know don't have kids but volunteer to work with them. Wether they couldn't have any of their own or the timing never worked out they didn't sire any offspring, but they are better parents than many that I've seen.

As for being overprotective . As a parent I try to teach my kids what I believe is right and wrong, and that means that you need to keep your kids away from certain things until they are old enough to comprehend the difference between the two and how one affects the other. My kids have all had "the Talk" because there is just too much of this junk in the world and you cannot avoid it, it doesn't mean that it's okay to go outside around a schoolyard and curse to your hearts content just because others do. If that were the case I'd just go on a killing spree because that is acceptable. I may not be able to provide a Leave it to Beaver style upbringing for my kids, but as long as I have breath then I will do what i can to protect them and give them the benefit of my knowledge in helping them to decide how to best live their life once I'm gone. Too many choices are out there right now that have lasting reporecussions on kids lives to let kids make uninformed decisions. While these models aren't the end of the world, they are one of the problems wrong with it. It is nudity for nudity's sake and serves no purpose except to elicit a harsh response.

Retailers that sell this should be aware that they will offend some of their customers and a small minority of those customers will just stop buying from them on principle. I am one of those people and I was just about to start buying warzone models to paint as I like the asian themed army and I even commented in the thread when they showed off the Gigamech. After seeing this stuff, and the representative from Prodos, I will spend my money elsewhere. While not a fanatic of Aliens vs. Predator, It is a game that I wanted to purchase at a later date, when my kids are ready for watching those movies with me, and then be able to play against them. That too has now been ruined by the company's desire to try for a cash grab by selling gak.

 Azazelx wrote:
I agree that Hasslefree's stuff is a lot better, but the fact is that Arty claiming that they're in entirely separate categories - Prodos stuff = sexist and bad, while Hasslefree's stuff = not? sexist and good..

I mean, they both are - or aren't. The HF sculpts are nicer and more realistically proportioned, and while some of the Prodos stuff is actually decent - a whole bunch of the Prodos stuff is completely ridiculous (forcefields FTW). But either way, there's really not a high moral ground on one side here.

No need for the thread to be locked either. It's ultimately just another silly internet slapfight that happened because Prodos chose to lead with their most ridiculous models (and haven't fulfilled their KS obligations). Just read it with popcorn handy and remember that you'll probably never have to see any of these models unless you choose to come into this thread.

And I still, completely, disagree. There is a huge difference between sexualised and sexist. I've never pretend we don't sell naked minis, both male and female. And a lot of them are sexualised (some are just naked). In fact at some points I have made Kev go out of his way to finish dollies to sell them as completely naked ones (There's one above, but we sell like 20 at this point). (I have also never made the 'arty' argument, no pun intended. That was other people).

But just being nude doesn't make something sexist? That's a crazy notion. However making a mini in a sci-fi setting with guns and massive amounts of armour and then just removing the torso section because boobs is 'not' what we do, and never will.

I would never be embarrassed to show a non-gamer our range, I would be mortified to show them those.

Like I said somewhere else, if someone just can't see that difference straight off, there's not much point in arguing. But I am completely befuddled as to why.

You'll notice I haven't said a word about the covered up ones, nor would I ever have. The sexist ones can still feth off back to the 80s though.

But if people keep wanna bringing up our minis, then I have no objection

 Artemis Black wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I agree that Hasslefree's stuff is a lot better, but the fact is that Arty claiming that they're in entirely separate categories - Prodos stuff = sexist and bad, while Hasslefree's stuff = not? sexist and good..

I mean, they both are - or aren't. The HF sculpts are nicer and more realistically proportioned, and while some of the Prodos stuff is actually decent - a whole bunch of the Prodos stuff is completely ridiculous (forcefields FTW). But either way, there's really not a high moral ground on one side here.

No need for the thread to be locked either. It's ultimately just another silly internet slapfight that happened because Prodos chose to lead with their most ridiculous models (and haven't fulfilled their KS obligations). Just read it with popcorn handy and remember that you'll probably never have to see any of these models unless you choose to come into this thread.

And I still, completely, disagree. There is a huge difference between sexualised and sexist. I've never pretend we don't sell naked minis, both male and female. And a lot of them are sexualised (some are just naked). In fact at some points I have made Kev go out of his way to finish dollies to sell them as completely naked ones (There's one above, but we sell like 20 at this point). (I have also never made the 'arty' argument, no pun intended. That was other people).

But just being nude doesn't make something sexist? That's a crazy notion. However making a mini in a sci-fi setting with guns and massive amounts of armour and then just removing the torso section because boobs is 'not' what we do, and never will.

I would never be embarrassed to show a non-gamer our range, I would be mortified to show them those.

Like I said somewhere else, if someone just can't see that difference straight off, there's not much point in arguing. But I am completely befuddled as to why.

You'll notice I haven't said a word about the covered up ones, nor would I ever have. The sexist ones can still feth off back to the 80s though.

But if people keep wanna bringing up our minis, then I have no objection

I agree with Arty here, and I will add that I don't think a nude is inherently sexualized. I daresay one might argue that automatically viewing a nude female as a sexual object is inherently sexist.

HFM absolutely sells sexualized models, but most of Kev's nudes do not even fall into that category. Kev sculpts from a mostly finished nude dollie. Finishing the dollie and selling the work separately is frankly good business sense, but more importantly, the nude was often not even intended for a sexualized model.

It's just a nude female.

The difference between a nude female and a sexist depiction of women is miles wide.

skarsol wrote:

Spoiler:

skarsol wrote:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

Hi there, shipping starters yesterday, once the status is changed to in progress it takes at max. 2 days to get it shipped out.

Well, been 48+ hours since you changed it to in progress.

EDIT: It changed to shipped shortly after I posted this. Using the tracking link (which is actually broken on both their webstore and the shipping email) says the status is currently that they've created the shipping label. It's not actually "shipped" yet IMO. Further updates to follow!

The Poland PO says they got the package 4 hours ago, so time from in progress to actually shipped is about 3.5 days, but a box is supposedly on the way to me now.

Please let us know when it arrives, and take plenty of pictures!

 Sinful Hero wrote:

skarsol wrote:

Spoiler:

skarsol wrote:

 Warzone Resurrection wrote:

Hi there, shipping starters yesterday, once the status is changed to in progress it takes at max. 2 days to get it shipped out.

Well, been 48+ hours since you changed it to in progress.

EDIT: It changed to shipped shortly after I posted this. Using the tracking link (which is actually broken on both their webstore and the shipping email) says the status is currently that they've created the shipping label. It's not actually "shipped" yet IMO. Further updates to follow!

The Poland PO says they got the package 4 hours ago, so time from in progress to actually shipped is about 3.5 days, but a box is supposedly on the way to me now.

Please let us know when it arrives, and take plenty of pictures!

At $24 to ship even 1 unit it better be flying here on the wings of eagles (but likely will show up mid March I'm guessing ).

weeble1000 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Artemis Black wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
I agree that Hasslefree's stuff is a lot better, but the fact is that Arty claiming that they're in entirely separate categories - Prodos stuff = sexist and bad, while Hasslefree's stuff = not? sexist and good..

I mean, they both are - or aren't. The HF sculpts are nicer and more realistically proportioned, and while some of the Prodos stuff is actually decent - a whole bunch of the Prodos stuff is completely ridiculous (forcefields FTW). But either way, there's really not a high moral ground on one side here.

No need for the thread to be locked either. It's ultimately just another silly internet slapfight that happened because Prodos chose to lead with their most ridiculous models (and haven't fulfilled their KS obligations). Just read it with popcorn handy and remember that you'll probably never have to see any of these models unless you choose to come into this thread.

And I still, completely, disagree. There is a huge difference between sexualised and sexist. I've never pretend we don't sell naked minis, both male and female. And a lot of them are sexualised (some are just naked). In fact at some points I have made Kev go out of his way to finish dollies to sell them as completely naked ones (There's one above, but we sell like 20 at this point). (I have also never made the 'arty' argument, no pun intended. That was other people).

But just being nude doesn't make something sexist? That's a crazy notion. However making a mini in a sci-fi setting with guns and massive amounts of armour and then just removing the torso section because boobs is 'not' what we do, and never will.

I would never be embarrassed to show a non-gamer our range, I would be mortified to show them those.

Like I said somewhere else, if someone just can't see that difference straight off, there's not much point in arguing. But I am completely befuddled as to why.

You'll notice I haven't said a word about the covered up ones, nor would I ever have. The sexist ones can still feth off back to the 80s though.

But if people keep wanna bringing up our minis, then I have no objection

I agree with Arty here, and I will add that I don't think a nude is inherently sexualized. I daresay one might argue that automatically viewing a nude female as a sexual object is inherently sexist.

HFM absolutely sells sexualized models, but most of Kev's nudes do not even fall into that category. Kev sculpts from a mostly finished nude dollie. Finishing the dollie and selling the work separately is frankly good business sense, but more importantly, the nude was often not even intended for a sexualized model.

It's just a nude female.

The difference between a nude female and a sexist depiction of women is miles wide.

I can appreciate this sentiment, and I certainly understand why Artemis believes what he believes, but this is an attempt to turn a difference of opinion on aesthetics into an objective difference of kind.

I'm able to say that because I have seen this attitude, the idea that artistic merit or quality differentiates 'acceptable' from 'unacceptable', publicly refuted. That is, Kingdom Death, which for much of this discussion has been used as the 'Gold Standard' of high quality, artistic but also sexy products. People have said (unless I am very much misremembering) things along the lines of 'oh, you can't compare this stuff to KD, this is crap and that is quality'.

Which is immediately demolished when you realize that Kingdom Death has been attacked in feminist media as the worst kind of sexist trash (KICKSTARTING SEXISM WITH "KINGDOM DEATH" , as B!tch Media titles it... I did not make that up).

What's the rule for is a thing is sexist, according to that feminist? "It was using images of women's bodies to make money." My impression of this generation of feminists (or, at least, their most vocal adherents on tumbler, YouTube and the internet) is that this is a fairly uncontroversial sentiment.

To someone that has internalized the above as their rule for "sexism", then there really isn't any difference between Prodos and Hasslefree. Because to such a person there is no difference between Hasslefree and Kingdom Death... or Wyrd. Or Arena Rex. Or Corvus Bell. Etc, etc, etc.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying anyone is doing anything wrong with regards to sexism... which is the point. It's silly to imagine that there is some hard and fast line of categories in this matter. Not when people will scream 'sexism!" at Infinity's combat heels, or claim that Dreamforge's female troopers (IMO the most realistic female sci-fi troopers currently on sale) are sexualized because the butt is... just too pert.

All of that said, I return to my original point from some time ago: the problem of Prodos' range is a failure of aesthetics, not ethics. The very busy armored parts simply don't work right with the smooth, 'naturalistic' torsos, producing a jarring rather then pleasing effect. They are in a middle ground where they (IMO) should either be more nude, or less (which seems to be where they are currently going).

Which is why adding just a little bit of coverage, of texture, on the 'PG18' versions actually makes them aesthetically better. IMO, of course.

I've never heard Dreamforge described as sexist before, perhaps because the Eisenkern dudes' butts are just as pert. That is just a strange complaint.

Hasslefree is not a company I would put in the "not sexist" camp, however there are degrees. Their Libby minis portray a body type not often found in miniature wargames, which docks some points off the sexism score card for some people. Still, I cringed at the two vikings Kev sculpted for Bones 3. (Not because they are nude necessarily, but because of the cheesy poses and cynical nature of the nudity.)

Frankly, KDM has so many more problematic things going on than pin-ups that it feels like wondering if there's sexism in Hentai.

Kingdom Death is about body horror, not hentai...

 BrookM wrote:
Kingdom Death is about body horror, not hentai...

Much of the body horror contains elements of rape. I wasn't calling KDM hentai, but rather saying that like with hentai there are many more issues with KDM than just the tits.


Anyway, as far as this project is concerned, I personally find bigger issues with the stupidity of the clothing and poses than with the TnA itself. If they have forcefields, just make them all go Dr Manhattan and get it done with. Huge armored shoulders and naked navels are a stupid combination worthy of derision no matter who is wearing it. It's embarrassing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS: I recently acquired some Warzone minis, and the resin casting and quality is on par with the greats like Paulson. If the Crusaders miniature sculpting and conceptual design work were improved to match the Warzone stuff, it would be a winner for sure.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I've never heard Dreamforge described as sexist before, perhaps because the Eisenkern dudes' butts are just as pert. That is just a strange complaint.

Hasslefree is not a company I would put in the "not sexist" camp, however there are degrees. Their Libby minis portray a body type not often found in miniature wargames, which docks some points off the sexism score card for some people. Still, I cringed at the two vikings Kev sculpted for Bones 3. (Not because they are nude necessarily, but because of the cheesy poses and cynical nature of the nudity.)

Frankly, KDM has so many more problematic things going on than pin-ups that it feels like wondering if there's sexism in Hentai.

This is my point though: the idea that there are "degrees" is not founded in something measurable, nor is it respected by the most strident feminist critics. The person that complains about the butts of DFG troopers may seem crazy to you (or to me), but a prominent 'feminist critic' not so long ago spent quite a lot of time talking about the pressing issue of... butts in video gaming. The complaint of sexism mostly mostly seems a proxy for quality and aesthetics, and to a certain degree reflects feelings about the producer rather then the product.

Prodos suffers from the (largely self-inflicted) wound of having really messed up their AvP fulfillment (among other things). I'm not saying that all criticism of this new line can be attributed to that (recall that I have consistently argued the original sculpts were lacking aesthetically), but I think the willingness of many people to believe there is some hard line between, for example, Hasslefree and this lies (in no small part) in the differing impressions of the companies.

Again, note that I am not saying that all categorical differences are meaningless: Dreamforge is clearly not in the same genre as KD. DFG is a more realistic, hard(ish) sci-fi property, while KD is strongly influenced by body horror and high fantasy tropes. I think it's entirely reasonable to classify things according to "realistic" and "Fantastic", but "sexist"/"non-sexist" is a largely if not totally meaningless classification.


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 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Kingdom Death is about body horror, not hentai...

Much of the body horror contains elements of rape. I wasn't calling KDM hentai, but rather saying that like with hentai there are many more issues with KDM than just the tits.

...

To be fair though, body horror is closely and classically associated with rape and rape imagery: the defining classic in this being (I would argue) Alien, which is just chock full of rape imagery.

The rest of your points, about quality, I agree with. The new versions (with "shirts") aren't simply 'non-sexist', I think they objectively look better.

I have to disagree about the "degrees" thing. There are plenty of degrees to sexism, as well as to other forms of bigotry. Paying women less for the same work is sexism of a lower degree than refusing to hire women because they belong in a kitchen. For example, Sedition Wars' female Samaritans had reasonable armor, yet their arched-back booty poses added a degree of sexism that some overlook and many more notice without it being a dealbreaker, which is very different from the early Space Crusade renders. Just because some people can't differentiate degrees doesn't mean we all have to pretend that all sexism is equal. This isn't Harrison Bergeron (nor Henrietta Bergeron, whose tits and cheeks poke out through the chains).

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I have to disagree about the "degrees" thing. There are plenty of degrees to sexism, as well as to other forms of bigotry. Paying women less for the same work is sexism of a lower degree than refusing to hire women because they belong in a kitchen. For example, Sedition Wars' female Samaritans had reasonable armor, yet their arched-back booty poses added a degree of sexism that some overlook and many more notice without it being a dealbreaker, which is very different from the early Space Crusade renders. Just because some people can't differentiate degrees doesn't mean we all have to pretend that all sexism is equal. This isn't Harrison Bergeron (nor Henrietta Bergeron, whose tits and cheeks poke out through the chains).

I think its important to point out, I fundamentally disagree that it is appropriate to use the terms 'sexism' or 'bigotry' with regards to models. That said, I must point out that my feelings are not the basis of my point: those "people [that] can't differentiate degrees" are feminists,

Incidentally, let's also be clear that you are agreeing with me that Hasslefree and Prodos are both in what you would broadly refer to as "the sexist camp". Which, needless to say, is a direct challenge to what Artemis Black is stating.

I was going to go on a long, wordy bit about sexism, feminism, etc, etc, but let's be reasonable: I'm not going to convince you, and you're not going to convince me. It's nothing to do with this product, but a lifetimes worth of experiences, reasoning and moral/philosophical differences.

So I'll avoid that and leave it at 'agree to dissagree' on the sexism, but I think we're both in agreement that the newer sculpts actually look pretty good, yes? I mean, some of this is good stuff;





These actually look pretty good. Which brings us to a question actually related to the thread (Gasp!): what are (excluding the kickstarter) people's experience with buying from Prodos in the USA?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 BrookM wrote:
Kingdom Death is about body horror, not hentai...

Much of the body horror contains elements of rape. I wasn't calling KDM hentai, but rather saying that like with hentai there are many more issues with KDM than just the tits.


Anyway, as far as this project is concerned, I personally find bigger issues with the stupidity of the clothing and poses than with the TnA itself. If they have forcefields, just make them all go Dr Manhattan and get it done with. Huge armored shoulders and naked navels are a stupid combination worthy of derision no matter who is wearing it. It's embarrassing.


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PS: I recently acquired some Warzone minis, and the resin casting and quality is on par with the greats like Paulson. If the Crusaders miniature sculpting and conceptual design work were improved to match the Warzone stuff, it would be a winner for sure.

I personally find KDM to be rather misogynistic as females are often depicted in victimized roles, which I find more problematic than T&A.

In most of Hasslefree's line you see depictions of empowered women, in which case nudity is inapposite. Much like Yrsa the Accursed from RBG depicts a strong woman with a confident and assertive bearing.



Does the lack of clothing sexually objectify Yrsa?

No. And I believe that is an objective, not subjective, determination. It is not an issue of aesthetics, it is an objective issue of human body language.

The Space Crusade models and artwork that we are discussing are sexually objectifying. I do not think it is an issue of aesthetics. You can have a 'good' and a 'bad' drawing of sexually objectified female. The execution is immaterial.

Edit: And Bob is absolutely right that there are degrees of sexism. I personally do not feel that nudity, on its own, equates to any degree of sexual objectification. Quite the contrary, I think that viewing nudity as sexualized is part of the problem, e.g. breastfeeding in public.

Viewing the female breast as a sexual object to the point that a woman is ridiculed for nourishing a child is, in my view, a problem. Prodos's artwork on display in this thread contributes to that problem because it communicates that women, and female bodies, are predominantly sexual objects in a way that a model like Yrsa absolutely does not.

I fear if this digression carries on the thread (or posters therein) may be squashed by those scarey MOD folk as there have been multiple warnings....

Where are you guys seeing the new sculpts? their website doesn't show any of those.

 solkan wrote:

In various circles it's possible to differentiate between porn that's well done, or that contains positive reinforcement of progressive values, from porn that's poorly done or that reinforces negative stereotypes.

So, yeah, "_____ and bad" and "____ and good" are important distinctions to make.

...which is entirely subjective, of course. I'm happy to stick with somewhat realistic and well-sculpted and not very realistic and not-so-well-sculpted because there will always be a significant number of people who like or dislike all nudity. Of course in your porn example, I'm sure some of the Prodos proportions are actually quite accurate. Clearly their concept art uses photographs of models as the base point, certainly for the female portraiture element.

But pretending that one of these companies and their products somehow holds the high moral ground is just silly. As silly as this was...

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Which brings us to a question actually related to the thread (Gasp!): what are (excluding the kickstarter) people's experience with buying from Prodos in the USA?

I've had no issues buying from them. It does take awhile for stuff to get here. I'd probably buy more if they had a warehouse or place selling within the US though.

Whoaaaa, we're Way off-topic in this thread!

If someone would like, please start up a thread in Dakka Discussions (or even Off-Topic) and link to it here to talk about general depictions of women / men / nudity / etc in miniatures. If it's not about miniatures, then it's really not pertinent and should definitely go in Off-Topic.

But for this thread in News & Rumors, the topic is the game from the OP by Prodos, and the miniatures related to it. So, let's return to discussing that and not the broader tangent we have been on!

Thanks all