Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Macro-cannon Aquila Strongpoint + Firespear Strike Force + The Hunter's Eye = Four cover-ignoring Str D large blasts a turn. Om nom nom!

If Stomp is considered D.
Yeah. Hate it.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I love D...I use it at often as I can. I really don't think there is anything wrong with it. On a 6 an indestructible model dies - 2-5 its about as effective as penning or wounding with 2 las cannons.

D weapons are significantly more powerful than just two lascannons against more things. For starters, T or AV value is irrelevant, a Lascannon only has a 1 in 3 chance of penning AV14, or a 50/50 chance to do anything at all. A D weapon gets a 5/6 chance to do something and, assuming AP2, has a better than 50/50 chance of one shotting any 3 HP vehicle with every shot (between chance to explode, do 3 HPs on a 2-5 roll, or get a 6), 5 times that of two successful Lascannon hits.

They are dramatically more capable than a couple of Lascannons, they're a point-click-delete ability.

I should have said melta gun.

Just like super heavies and fliers, it should have stayed in Apocalypse. Ugh.

I play Marines, I play 30k Heresy era Marines in 40k as my gaming group is cool about it. I own everything that Marines have that can toss out D. The Falchion Superheavy, and T-HAWK with a turbo laser.
I also have several Titans. (Not Knights, the real things :p)

And honestly I've had mixed success with D. I enjoy using it for the fear factor it puts out, but as far as any real effectiveness, it can be dodgy, especially against hordes and cover heavy armies.

My two armies are Necrons and IG,

For Necrons we only get a random roll on bad models to get S so I basically never use it.

For IG sometimes I feel like shooting myself in the foot so I might just take a 450pnt vehicle with only one gun. Even though one S large blast is kind of useless when you pay 450 points for it, most of the time it is worst off then S:10 ignores cover except maybe once per game you might one shot something important like a knight (wraith or imperial) or a riptide or something, assuming you aren't dead from deep striking melta or haywire or what not. But even then it didn't make its point cost back.....

Sorry about that rant. I do think the Shadow Sword is a really cool tank, it looks awesome. It's. just. so. useless.

I only get D with either a stompa or double sixes with a shokk attack gun so ya. I rarely use it.

Crispy78 wrote:
I encountered it for the first time in my last battle, where my friend was trying out his new Shadowsword for the first time. The plan was we'd have a silly game where we brought out our big guns, so I was fielding my Greater Brass Scorpion. And silly was very much how it went!

I think the big problem was a massive lack of scenery, as although we had a few bits on the table there was enough open terrain I had to cross within the firing line of his Shadowsword, Leman Russ squadron and so on that I didn't have a chance.

The infantry I'd managed to infiltrate was half dead turn one, and mostly gone on turn two.

The first hit from the D cannon on my scorpion did a few hull points, then on turn 2 he rolled a 6 on the D table, and another 6 for the damage. My scorpion went nuclear. Hit the daemon prince hiding behind him with its own Str D explosion and killed him, and also wiped out the few remaining havocs squatting in the neighbouring cover.

Tabled on turn 2 - half my army was still in reserves. I think I took a couple of hull points off a razorback and immobilised a chimera, but didn't kill anything.

Yeah, D is 'fun'.

ha ha, yes it was one of those comedy moments. I think it kind of shows that D can be a little bit daft in an 1850 point game, but then again we both agreed to take superheavies in that game so we were asking for trouble lol.

I think D strength is generally ok in the big 5000 point Apocalypse size games since there are enough models on the table to make up for the devastation that it could bring and also the fact that the other player will likely have big and nasty units themselves. In smaller games I think it is ok if both players agree on it and are pushed for time so need the game to be finished quickly and want to be a bit silly. Suffice to say I won't be bringing a superheavy or D-strength unit to the table that often, just for the occasional fun and silliness.

It makes me think of when I was younger and discovered the cheats for the video game Doom and did the god mode cheat. It was fun at first running around being invincible and destroying stuff, but after a while the novelty wore off and it got boring due to no challenge. I ended up realising that it was a lot more fun to be running around with 10% health, hardly any ammunition and rooms full of monsters to get through.

Ok, I got lucky with my Shadowsword in that game, but with other big strength D units like the Wraithknight and so on, I think it would end up getting a bit boring for the player that is using those all powerful units and just easily wiping stuff out all the time. Just like using god mode in Doom.

In general I have no problem with D. There are a few cheeky units or combos that it can get ridiculous on but overall it hasn't hurt our local games at all. Invuln and cover saves can still be taken against all but one of the D table effects and it really is only good for killing vehicles and MC, most infantry laugh at it unless it's a blast or template. Overall my big gripe is with the 6 result. 6+D6 is too much IMO especially since it negates invuln and cover. I'd like to see the table change to:

1- Fail to wound
2 to 5- Causes 2 wounds instead of one (still just make one save on the model to negate both wounds)
6- 3 Wounds instead of 1 (still just make one save to negate all three wounds) Invuln saves are made at -1. Cover saves may still be taken.

This way a 6 isn't the "delete" button it currently is. D-scythe is scary even if it can't get a 6 and fails to wound on a 1 or a 2. Overall I'm not sure how to balance this. DE webway superfriends is a problem but in general the allies mechanic (specifically battle brothers) can make quite a few broken builds for almost any army. I have a buddy who runs d-scythe guard all the time and they've been hit or miss for him. He runs them in a wave serpent and if it blows up they're useless. If it doesn't then he generally gets one good round of shooting with them before they die horrendously, they're scary and no opponent let's them live long. Trouble is for melee armies though. No one wants to charge them for obvious reasons. Those things are deadlier on overwatch than they are during the shooting phase to MC. Best tactic I saw was declare a charge with a throwaway unit to eat overwatch then charge your beatstick in to fight them.

The other D that is commonly hated on is the Wk. Full disclosure I have never used the wraithcannon knight mine is built with a sword and that's all I've ever used. The D-sword knight is fine IMO. He's won some good combats but he's also fallen flat on his face more times than not. WS4 hurts him for one, he gets tarpitted easily despite his stomp (can't always roll three stomps now can we? Sometimes you just get one). From what I can tell people hate the wraithcannon knight for the same reason I don't like a riptide, it's durable, has good shooting (less shots than a riptide but those two shots are more powerful against juicy targets) and thanks to being jump and a decent range it can play positioning to try and stay safe from enemy retaliation. The d-sword knight on the other hand has to just wade up and start swinging to be useful, this puts him in much more firing arcs and puts him in danger.

As many have said the knight could use a price hike (I don't agree with a massive hike to 500 points as I've read elsewhere but something reasonable would be fine) but I don't think D weapons are the big issue then on the knight, his points cost is. Maybe make the suncannon and sword knight the free swap but make the player pay more points for the wraithcannon variant?

TLDR: D is overall not broken, the 6 result should be nerfed and certain power-combos need to be made unavailable but D in normal games I feel is fine. It encourages running some infantry too as opposed to always spamming MC and vehicles which IMO is a good thing.

D should be powerful. It should also be very rare.

I don't have a big burning desire to play D but unfortunately the WraithKnight is really freaking good. So as long as they remain so, i have to account for them. thusly, D weapons have crept into my arsenal as a counter meausure more than any active attempt to dominate with it.

I like the alternate rules for D strength weapons presented in one of the Horus Heresy books much better than the 40K D.

 Lukash_ wrote:
I like the alternate rules for D strength weapons presented in one of the Horus Heresy books much better than the 40K D.

What does the D do in HH?

As an Eldar player I like to run a CAD consisting of a Spiritseer, a Wraithseer, 3 squads of Wraithguard, 2 5 man DA squads, 3 Hemlocks, 3 Vaul Support and a Wraithknight.

 master of ordinance wrote:
D should be powerful. It should also be very rare.

For the most part it is quite rare barring the Eldar faction. I think GW felt that easier access to D weapons should be one of the unique things that makes Eldar stand out against their other kin, kind of how DE get plenty of access to poison and Harlies have many unique melee weapons. I gave up trying to believe that D was supposed to be exceptionally rare or for apoc games only a long time ago. There are decent counters to it especially on the wraithguard platforms (knights are a different bag altogether) and only DE shenanigans make d-scythes truly scary, and as I said Battle brothers is a different issue altogether. I still feel my proposed re-work of D makes it easier to swallow (pun not intended I swear!) and neuters that "I rolled a 6 so you lose" clause. I don't know about yours but my meta has a decent amount of MSU and a few large swarm style armies. No amount of D helps against those at all so spamming all D doesn`t really help me. One or two is good for high priority targets but any more and I don`t have the variety of firepower or number of units to deal with my opponents.

And I`m sure now that D is more easily accessible GW can finally start rolling out that new super-ultra-powerful weapon damage table that will be the new hotness and make D look like a kitten sneezing at you. We all know how GW loves their power creep! lol

I loathe STR D personally - It is more acceptable in close combat than ranged, but I have always seen it as a lazy solution to a complex problem. I realize they put it in Apocalypse due to the massive amount of models that needed to be removed and to get that "Wauw!" effect, but it seems they put it in regular 40k games, as a counter to deathstars and nigh-invincible units.

I don't like rules where it's "Hey you know that armor save, invul save and strategy you put behind that dude? Year, if I roll a 6 now, he dead no matter what." I find it a cheap mechanic that goes against the tactics of the game, and more of a AoS term than anything. On other similar effects (Instant death for example) you at least get a save against it and a chance to prepare yourself for that one thing. With STR D? You know that 350 point character you have with Eternal Warrior, a 2+/3++ save and the relic of the gods? Yeah he dead. All because Timmy, the 12 year old kid who thought this would be awesome, had a bring-my-kid-to-office-day with his dad who wrote the rules for 40k, where he threw a tantrum and the only way to get him to shut up was to include it in the next edition.

Needless to say, all of the above is being channeled towards stomp as well.

No I'm not bitter. Do I sound bitter? I'm really not.

... Ok maybe a little bitter.

There are defenses against the D chart showing up in Forge World rules, such as the Ordinatus Dispersion Shield, to mitigate its effectiveness. I think if some make their way into 40k it won't be as big of a problem.

 Nordicus wrote:
I loathe STR D personally - It is more acceptable in close combat than ranged, but I have always seen it as a lazy solution to a complex problem. I realize they put it in Apocalypse due to the massive amount of models that needed to be removed and to get that "Wauw!" effect, but it seems they put it in regular 40k games, as a counter to deathstars and nigh-invincible units.

I don't like rules where it's "Hey you know that armor save, invul save and strategy you put behind that dude? Year, if I roll a 6 now, he dead no matter what." I find it a cheap mechanic that goes against the tactics of the game, and more of a AoS term than anything. On other similar effects (Instant death for example) you at least get a save against it and a chance to prepare yourself for that one thing. With STR D? You know that 350 point character you have with Eternal Warrior, a 2+/3++ save and the relic of the gods? Yeah he dead. All because Timmy, the 12 year old kid who thought this would be awesome, had a bring-my-kid-to-office-day with his dad who wrote the rules for 40k, where he threw a tantrum and the only way to get him to shut up was to include it in the next edition.

Needless to say, all of the above is being channeled towards stomp as well.

No I'm not bitter. Do I sound bitter? I'm really not.

... Ok maybe a little bitter.

Changing the 6 result from stomp to something less... "remove model from play" wouldn't hurt my feelings. Maybe just make it strength 8 ap2 instead? the 2-5 result isn't the end of the world in my opinion. Oh and may change the stomp rule to be "stomp 1/2/3) so it's not random, each model with stomp has a set number it can do maybe?

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Lukash_ wrote:
I like the alternate rules for D strength weapons presented in one of the Horus Heresy books much better than the 40K D.

What does the D do in HH?

Strength 10 with Primary Weapon, Ignores Cover, Instant Death, and forces rerolls of successful invulns. Wounds and hullpoints remove d3+1 per unsaved wound/HP.

 Lukash_ wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Lukash_ wrote:
I like the alternate rules for D strength weapons presented in one of the Horus Heresy books much better than the 40K D.

What does the D do in HH?

Strength 10 with Primary Weapon, Ignores Cover, Instant Death, and forces rerolls of successful invulns. Wounds and hullpoints remove d3+1 per unsaved wound/HP.

If I understand that correctly that's way better than the 2-5 result on the 40k table and only neuters the 6 result. I'm all for nerfing the 6 result we have but I don't think our 2-5 result needs an upgrade.

 Lukash_ wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Lukash_ wrote:
I like the alternate rules for D strength weapons presented in one of the Horus Heresy books much better than the 40K D.

What does the D do in HH?

Strength 10 with Primary Weapon, Ignores Cover, Instant Death, and forces rerolls of successful invulns. Wounds and hullpoints remove d3+1 per unsaved wound/HP.

That would pretty much buff D against anything not a GMC / SH, point it at any riptide/hive tyrant/ dreadknight and it disappears.
It makes D more consistent , less of a swing on a 6, but a lot more power in general.

Worse chance of penning land raiders though. but more damage if you do.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I love D...I use it at often as I can. I really don't think there is anything wrong with it. On a 6 an indestructible model dies - 2-5 its about as effective as penning or wounding with 2 las cannons.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Considering my only source of D is from a random power, I use it only when the dice let me...

But for real, I typically frown upon it in regular games, since not all armies have equal access to it.

I feel you fellow 'cron, us egyptian zombie terminators got shafted when it comes to getting the D (pun fully intended).
Anyhow, I use it basically every game I play with C'Tan, seeing how I keep rolling the D shot power against those 20 man fire warriors

<--Loves the D!