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• Power armour
• Bolt pistol
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades
• Space Marine bike

.... Where is this going...

Creeperman wrote:

col_impact wrote:
There is no history or order of operations. There is no place you can sweep dependencies under the rug and pretend they are not there. Everything is a flat selection. If you now have a WPGL you cannot have a sniper rifle selected. Having the sniper rifle selected is dependent on you having a scout.

Leaving aside the fact that you can't substantiate that statement with rules, it's not even internally consistent. You have a scout. Five of them, in fact. They all took sniper rifles. Some of them also took other stuff. Sounds like we're in agreement that everything's kosher.

At least until you tell me I'm incorrect and move the goalposts yet again, anyway.

Everything's kosher if that's your final unit make-up.

Once again there is no history unless you can show in the rules where you get to keep a history.

If you take a WGPL you then legally have four sniper rifles for 4 scouts. A WGPL cannot select a sniper rifle. You don't get to hide that dependency in the past.

Come on, Honda, you can clearly at least read... What starting war gear does a biker get? Or Colonoscopy. Either one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Infact, given the last comment, COL should answer this.

Zarius wrote:
Come on, Honda, you can clearly at least read... What starting war gear does a biker get? Or Colonoscopy. Either one.

• Power armour
• Bolt pistol
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades
• Space Marine bike

...

col_impact wrote:
Everything's kosher if that's your final unit make-up.

Once again there is no history unless you can show in the rules where you get to keep a history.

If you take a WGPL you then legally have four sniper rifles for 4 scouts. A WGPL cannot select a sniper rifle. You don't get to hide that dependency in the past.

You just said it yourself. The concept of a dependency implicitly requires a history, or else you have no frame of reference to evaluate it against.

OK, that works. SO, COL, since your cohort has done the preliminary work for you, HOW does a Space Marine Biker trade his Melee weapon for a Special weapon, given the starting war gear list?

Special Weapons
A model may replace its Melee weapon or boltgun with one of the following:

Bolt pistol > Special Weapon

Still not seeing the point in all this...

This is from the BRB:
Pistols as Close Combat Weapons
A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon.

Creeperman wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Everything's kosher if that's your final unit make-up.

Once again there is no history unless you can show in the rules where you get to keep a history.

If you take a WGPL you then legally have four sniper rifles for 4 scouts. A WGPL cannot select a sniper rifle. You don't get to hide that dependency in the past.

You just said it yourself. The concept of a dependency implicitly requires a history, or else you have no frame of reference to evaluate it against.

Nope no history required.

Flat dependency.

HondaDaBest wrote:
Special Weapons
A model may replace its Melee weapon or boltgun with one of the following:

Bolt pistol > Special Weapon

Still not seeing the point in all this...

This is from the BRB:
Pistols as Close Combat Weapons
A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon.

A pistol isn't ACTUALLY a close combat weapon. It doesn't make it a melee weapon just because it CAN be used as one. It has the same melee profile as "no designated CCW". It's LISTED under Ranged weapons, not Melee.

col_impact wrote:
Nope no history required.

Flat dependency.

There it is, the classic refutation followed by the restatement and reassertion of the very thing refuted. Are you being deliberately disingenuous here, or do you honestly not understand the meaning of the word "dependent?"

Zarius wrote:
A pistol isn't ACTUALLY a close combat weapon. It doesn't make it a melee weapon just because it CAN be used as one. It has the same melee profile as "no designated CCW". It's LISTED under Ranged weapons, not Melee.

It is things like this when I can't tell if you are serious or not.
There is an entry called Close Combat Weapons in the BRB. Please read it entirely...

It says that Close Combat Weapons are "type" Melee.
Then it says
"A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon."

HondaDaBest wrote:

Zarius wrote:
A pistol isn't ACTUALLY a close combat weapon. It doesn't make it a melee weapon just because it CAN be used as one. It has the same melee profile as "no designated CCW". It's LISTED under Ranged weapons, not Melee.

It is things like this when I can't tell if you are serious or not.
There is an entry called Close Combat Weapons in the BRB. Please read it entirely...

It says that Close Combat Weapons are "type" Melee.
Then it says
"A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon."

That's an ALTERNATE PROFILE. It says that a pistol can be USED as a CCW, and that when it does it takes on the Melee special rule. It is NOT, however, a melee weapon.

col_impact wrote:The rules make no mention of order of operations so there isn't any. Everything works fine as one flat selection where you take care of dependencies in the final flat submission. Simple.

You do know that actually IS an order of operations of a type, right?

col_impact wrote:Otherwise you get people trying to avoid dependencies by using a notion of sequencing or history which is nowhere in the rules.

That is a RAI observation, I thought you stuck by Written Rules?

Zarius wrote:Charistoph,

"Special Weapons
A model may replace his Melee weapon or boltgun with one of the following:"

"WARGEAR:
• Power armour
• Bolt pistol
• Frag grenades
• Krak grenades
• Space Marine bike"

"Any model may replace his bolt pistol with a chainsword…free"

"Up to two Space Marine Bikers may each take one item from the Special Weapons list."

I believe this is the list of things you refer to.

Pretty much. The 6th Edition Codex Marines book did not have that pistol replacement, and it had to be errata'd in. It has been included in every entry since, including the 7th Edition BA book.

HondaDaBest wrote:It says that Close Combat Weapons are "type" Melee.
Then it says
"A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon."

Now quote the line from the Pistol Type and note when it counts as a close combat weapon, and consider how it relates to when you are building an army list.

Charistoph wrote:
Now quote the line from the Pistol Type and note when it counts as a close combat weapon, and consider how it relates to when you are building an army list.

Zarius wrote:
That's an ALTERNATE PROFILE. It says that a pistol can be USED as a CCW, and that when it does it takes on the Melee special rule. It is NOT, however, a melee weapon.

Are you guys serious?

I didn't exactly type it out because I was in a rush but please read Special Weapons.

Special Weapons: A model may replace his Melee weapon or boltgun with one of the following:

BOLTGUN....

Bolt Pistol is literally listed under Boltgun

HondaDaBest wrote:

Charistoph wrote:
Now quote the line from the Pistol Type and note when it counts as a close combat weapon, and consider how it relates to when you are building an army list.

Zarius wrote:
That's an ALTERNATE PROFILE. It says that a pistol can be USED as a CCW, and that when it does it takes on the Melee special rule. It is NOT, however, a melee weapon.

Are you guys serious?

I didn't exactly type it out because I was in a rush but please read Special Weapons.

Special Weapons: A model may replace his Melee weapon or boltgun with one of the following:

BOLTGUN....

Bolt Pistol is literally listed under Boltgun

Correct. Boltgun is both a category and a specific weapon in that category with the same name.

Gee, aren't 40k's rules so clear and polished?

HondaDaBest wrote:
Are you guys serious?

I didn't exactly type it out because I was in a rush but please read Special Weapons.

Special Weapons: A model may replace his Melee weapon or boltgun with one of the following:

BOLTGUN....

Bolt Pistol is literally listed under Boltgun

Not quite.
After thinking about it, I will have to lean towards it not meaning Bolt Pistol. (Technically, it is a Boltgun, but you have to go with what the Codex means by "Boltgun")
The Codex clearly differentiates bolt pistol, boltgun and melee weapons.
For Melee Weapons header for example, it says
"A model may replace its bolt pistol, boltgun and/or Melee weapon with one of the following:"

So we have to go with what the codex means by boltgun, when it says boltgun.
While there is no way you could say that it isn't a boltgun (since it is under the Boltgun header), we can assume that when the Codex says "boltgun", that it is referring to the actual weapon "Boltgun" and not the "Boltgun" type.
In the end, we have to use the definition of boltgun that the Codex uses it as.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would have to say, I had no idea that information like this existed. Given this new information, I would have to say that it leans toward there being a "sequence" when upgrading.
However, it doesn't change the argument all that much...

Like above, we have to go with what the Codex means by "upgrade" when it says upgrade. Does it mean "promote" or "replace"?
We found information it means "replace". We did not find any information that it means "promote". (Like now, maybe there is something that someone hasn't found yet.)
Given all the information we have to work with so far, we have to operate under the idea that when the Codex says "upgrade" it means "replace".

Lets take this information and assume there is a sequence.
Every upgrade you take in sequece, will still "replace".
>5 Wolf Scouts
Choose to upgrade 4 of them to Sniper Rifles
>5 Wolf Scouts, 4 with Sniper Rifles
Choose to upgrade 1 of them with Sniper Rifle to WGPL
>4 Wolf Scouts, 3 with Sniper, 1 WGPL

There is a carry-over of upgrades in terms of Wolf Scouts. We know the unit composition changes after every upgrade.
However, when upgrading a Wolf Scout to a WGPL, there is still no carry-over of information. Because this is a change of entry.
You have upgraded a Boltgun Wolf Scout, to a Sniper Rifle Wolf Scout. You have upgraded the Sniper Wolf Scout, to a WGPL.
Every upgrade, you "replace" the previous one. You have upgraded the chosen Wolf Scout with a WGPL, which comes with it's own starting gear, special rules, etc.
You have not done a model "promotion". You must use what the Codex used upgrade to mean. As we have done for "boltgun/bolt pistol".

HondaDaBest wrote:
Are you guys serious?

I didn't exactly type it out because I was in a rush but please read Special Weapons.

Special Weapons: A model may replace his Melee weapon or boltgun with one of the following:

BOLTGUN....

Bolt Pistol is literally listed under Boltgun

Cool, so a Marine in a Tactical Squad is armed with two Bolt pistols, a Boltgun, a Heavy Bolter, a Storm Bolter, and a Vulcan Mega-bolter. That definitely sounds more deadly, but a little ridiculous for 14 pts, wouldn't you say?

Keep in mind that usually when it is speaking of one of these groups, they usually apply "type" or "weapons" afterwards, like the Salamanders Chapter Trait. So, no, Bolt Pistol does not qualify as "boltgun" for the purposes of replacing in the Weapon list.

@Rasko
@Charistoph

I was wrong. My mistake. You have to go with what the Codex means by Boltgun when it says Boltgun.
Even if the Bolt Pistol is technically a Bolgun.

Rasko wrote:
However, it doesn't change the argument all that much...

Like above, we have to go with what the Codex means by "upgrade" when it says upgrade. Does it mean "promote" or "replace"?
We found information it means "replace". We did not find any information that it means "promote". (Like now, maybe there is something that someone hasn't found yet.)
Given all the information we have to work with so far, we have to operate under the idea that when the Codex says "upgrade" it means "replace".

Lets take this information and assume there is a sequence.
Every upgrade you take in sequece, will still "replace".
>5 Wolf Scouts
Choose to upgrade 4 of them to Sniper Rifles
>5 Wolf Scouts, 4 with Sniper Rifles
Choose to upgrade 1 of them with Sniper Rifle to WGPL
>4 Wolf Scouts, 3 with Sniper, 1 WGPL

There is a carry-over of upgrades in terms of Wolf Scouts. We know the unit composition changes after every upgrade.
However, when upgrading a Wolf Scout to a WGPL, there is still no carry-over of information. Because this is a change of entry.
You have upgraded a Boltgun Wolf Scout, to a Sniper Rifle Wolf Scout. You have upgraded the Sniper Wolf Scout, to a WGPL.
Every upgrade, you "replace" the previous one. You have upgraded the chosen Wolf Scout with a WGPL, which comes with it's own starting gear, special rules, etc.
You have not done a model "promotion". You must use what the Codex used upgrade to mean. As we have done for "boltgun/bolt pistol".

As stated before, I disagree that there is some kind of a conditional carry-over between upgrades that works on some options but not others, absent specific instructions to that effect. But I also thought of something else regarding "upgrade" = "replace" a page ago:

Creeperman wrote:
But something else occurred to me when re-reading your post. Let's back up a little bit and examine your definition of "upgrade." It is true that the BRB and Codices say "add to the unit," but where is your permission to "remove?" If you are equating "upgrade" with "replacement," a necessary precondition is the removal of the old entity (model, weapon, etc.). In the case of weapons, this is made explicit; you are told to "replace his [the model's] boltgun with" the sniper rifle/shotgun/CCW/whatever. In the case of camo cloaks, you are not told to remove or replace anything; it's a straight addition. When dealing with the wargear lists, you are again (explicitly) instructed to replace existing weapons. But in the case of the WGPL, you are told to "upgrade" a model, without being told to remove or replace it. This same wording is used in the Rune Priest's option to "be upgraded to Psyker (Mastery Level 2)," and again in the Dreadnought's "May be upgraded to be a Venerable Dreadnought" option.

It seems clear to me that "upgrade" is being assigned a specific meaning, namely "carry out the specified action on the specified target model," whether it be profile changes, special rules, or wargear changes, as explicitly stated by the option in question.

Creeperman wrote:

Rasko wrote:
However, it doesn't change the argument all that much...

Like above, we have to go with what the Codex means by "upgrade" when it says upgrade. Does it mean "promote" or "replace"?
We found information it means "replace". We did not find any information that it means "promote". (Like now, maybe there is something that someone hasn't found yet.)
Given all the information we have to work with so far, we have to operate under the idea that when the Codex says "upgrade" it means "replace".

Lets take this information and assume there is a sequence.
Every upgrade you take in sequece, will still "replace".
>5 Wolf Scouts
Choose to upgrade 4 of them to Sniper Rifles
>5 Wolf Scouts, 4 with Sniper Rifles
Choose to upgrade 1 of them with Sniper Rifle to WGPL
>4 Wolf Scouts, 3 with Sniper, 1 WGPL

There is a carry-over of upgrades in terms of Wolf Scouts. We know the unit composition changes after every upgrade.
However, when upgrading a Wolf Scout to a WGPL, there is still no carry-over of information. Because this is a change of entry.
You have upgraded a Boltgun Wolf Scout, to a Sniper Rifle Wolf Scout. You have upgraded the Sniper Wolf Scout, to a WGPL.
Every upgrade, you "replace" the previous one. You have upgraded the chosen Wolf Scout with a WGPL, which comes with it's own starting gear, special rules, etc.
You have not done a model "promotion". You must use what the Codex used upgrade to mean. As we have done for "boltgun/bolt pistol".

As stated before, I disagree that there is some kind of a conditional carry-over between upgrades that works on some options but not others, absent specific instructions to that effect. But I also thought of something else regarding "upgrade" = "replace" a page ago:

Creeperman wrote:
But something else occurred to me when re-reading your post. Let's back up a little bit and examine your definition of "upgrade." It is true that the BRB and Codices say "add to the unit," but where is your permission to "remove?" If you are equating "upgrade" with "replacement," a necessary precondition is the removal of the old entity (model, weapon, etc.). In the case of weapons, this is made explicit; you are told to "replace his [the model's] boltgun with" the sniper rifle/shotgun/CCW/whatever. In the case of camo cloaks, you are not told to remove or replace anything; it's a straight addition. When dealing with the wargear lists, you are again (explicitly) instructed to replace existing weapons. But in the case of the WGPL, you are told to "upgrade" a model, without being told to remove or replace it. This same wording is used in the Rune Priest's option to "be upgraded to Psyker (Mastery Level 2)," and again in the Dreadnought's "May be upgraded to be a Venerable Dreadnought" option.

It seems clear to me that "upgrade" is being assigned a specific meaning, namely "carry out the specified action on the specified target model," whether it be profile changes, special rules, or wargear changes, as explicitly stated by the option in question.

Not if upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had"

The answer is simple. Rasko is correct, the BRB gives an AMBIGUOUS definition for "boltgun" by having it as both a category and a specific weapon, while reading the Codex gives specific context indicators as to what is meant. However, you didn't read my previous posts. I say this because one of my posts actually DOES give the answer. In the BA codex, there is an entry that states that the SM Biker may trade their Bolt Pistol for a Chain Sword, which actually DOES fall specifically into a specific category with no qualms over if they mean the category or the specific weapon.

I believe, Rasko, that this would establish a required history of upgrades, would it not?

col_impact wrote:
Not if upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had"

We were discussing processes, not dictionary definitions, in case that wasn't obvious enough. But feel free to continue gracing us with your words of wisdom.

Creeperman wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Not if upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had"

We were discussing processes, not dictionary definitions, in case that wasn't obvious enough. But feel free to continue gracing us with your words of wisdom.

Even if what we were discussing, and what it meant was that, it STILL wouldn't mean "replace" flat out.

Creeperman wrote:
As stated before, I disagree that there is some kind of a conditional carry-over between upgrades that works on some options but not others, absent specific instructions to that effect. But I also thought of something else regarding "upgrade" = "replace" a page ago:

It seems clear to me that "upgrade" is being assigned a specific meaning, namely "carry out the specified action on the specified target model," whether it be profile changes, special rules, or wargear changes, as explicitly stated by the option in question.

Creeperman wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Not if upgrade means "to get something better than what you originally had"

We were discussing processes, not dictionary definitions, in case that wasn't obvious enough. But feel free to continue gracing us with your words of wisdom.

My pearl of wisdom to you is that that definition of upgrade implicitly replaces.

Your welcome.

I mean, sure, to 'improve' the scout's gun, he has to replace his Bolter with either a shotgun or a sniper rifle, but to improve the SCOUT, you replace his GUN, or you ADD a cloak, not replace the whole unit.

col_impact wrote:
Incorrect. You are upgrading the unit per the rules.

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Also, upgrade means "to get something that is better than what you had originally". So I get a WPGL model that is better than the Scout model I originally had.

Not seeing anything in those rules that say replace. your argument can only be a HYWPI scenario since nothing there says replace. House rule it i=f you wish, but the RAW agrees with my posts with rules support.

An Upgrade to a WPGL is getting "something that is better than what you had originally" in the form of that model having a higher LD and a better A value...

You add this upgraded model to the unit, since that model did not have as high a LD and A characteristic.

Same model, the statline is added to that model and as per the options rules, to the unit (Though only the upgraded model benefits from the increased A value).

Zarius wrote:
I mean, sure, to 'improve' the scout's gun, he has to replace his Bolter with either a shotgun or a sniper rifle, but to improve the SCOUT, you replace his GUN, or you ADD a cloak, not replace the whole unit.

I have no idea what that even means.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not seeing anything in those rules that say replace. your argument can only be a HYWPI scenario since nothing there says replace. House rule it i=f you wish, but the RAW agrees with my posts with rules support.

An Upgrade to a WPGL is getting "something that is better than what you had originally" in the form of that model having a higher LD and a better A value...

You add this upgraded model to the unit, since that model did not have as high a LD and A characteristic.

Same model, the statline is added to that model and as per the options rules, to the unit (Though only the upgraded model benefits from the increased A value).

I absolutely love these kind of posts. Here let me try.

Not seeing anything in those rules that say promote. Your argument can only be a HYWPI scenario since nothing there says promote. House rule it if you wish, but the RAW agrees with my posts with rules support.

An upgrade to a WGPL is getting "something that is better than what you had originally" in the form of a new model that has higher LD and a better A value...

You add this upgraded model to the unit, since the model before did not have as high a LD and A characteristic.

Different model.

Rasko wrote:

Zarius wrote:
I mean, sure, to 'improve' the scout's gun, he has to replace his Bolter with either a shotgun or a sniper rifle, but to improve the SCOUT, you replace his GUN, or you ADD a cloak, not replace the whole unit.

I have no idea what that even means.

So, I want to make sure I understand this correctly: You don't understand that the act of replacing a Scout's Bolter with, say, a Plasma Pistol could be considered an upgrade? AP2, Str7 weapon, you see NO upgrade potential there? Or a meltagun? Sure, short-as-crap range, but AP 1 (there aren't even Armor 1 units that I'm aware of), Str 8. You wouldn't call that an upgrade for, say, a unit meant to go after light/medium tanks?

Are you serious?

I actually have a similar question but it is different enough to warrant asking, though it may be worth a new thread.

If you have a tank that can take a pintle mounted Multilaser and also can replace all of its Multilasers with Lascannons, can you end up with a pintle mounted lascannon?