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col_impact wrote:
[The WD is express about its permission when you can include an exclusive WD Formation or Cities of Death tactical cards into your game of 40k.

If the WD said you could include the Battle Report in your game of 40k as a rule source or some other fashion then that would be fine. No problem with me if if actually permitted it.

However, there is no such permission.

And that demonstrates how much you do not understand regarding what I am saying. Read it again and take a moment to actually process it more than than you use for a Facebook meme.

Ahem! If we could all stop bickering, I believe you all missed my post a few pages back. Giving a wolf guard pack leader a sniper rifle before he becomes a wolf guard pack leader is the same as giving a wolf lord a jump pack before he has terminator armour. And we all know that is not on. Case closed.

 Kavish wrote:
Ahem! If we could all stop bickering, I believe you all missed my post a few pages back. Giving a wolf guard pack leader a sniper rifle before he becomes a wolf guard pack leader is the same as giving a wolf lord a jump pack before he has terminator armour. And we all know that is not on. Case closed.

No it is not. There is an actual rule that says a model may not have terminator armor and a jump pack...

"May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour or models who have a Thunderwolf mount"

If you have Terminator armor you can not have a jump pack.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Ahem! If we could all stop bickering, I believe you all missed my post a few pages back. Giving a wolf guard pack leader a sniper rifle before he becomes a wolf guard pack leader is the same as giving a wolf lord a jump pack before he has terminator armour. And we all know that is not on. Case closed.

No it is not. There is an actual rule that says a model may not have terminator armor and a jump pack...

"May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour or models who have a Thunderwolf mount"

If you have Terminator armor you can not have a jump pack.

Ah, but at the time the model was given a jump pack (sniper rifle) it was not wearing Terminator Armor (upgraded to WGPL).

So there is a internal timeline of upgrade events when we write our army list?

that's cool.. that's fantastic..
...wait!...
thats BS!

eigther we give a scout the upgrades that are aviablle for a scout. or we upgrade a scout to a WGPL and then we may give this model upgrades that belong to a WGPL... that's it

 _ghost_ wrote:
So there is a internal timeline of upgrade events when we write our army list?

that's cool.. that's fantastic..
...wait!...
thats BS!

eigther we give a scout the upgrades that are aviablle for a scout. or we upgrade a scout to a WGPL and then we may give this model upgrades that belong to a WGPL... that's it

As has been mentioned many times, there must be a sequence in choosing options as some options aren't available until after a previous option has been chosen and applied. The classic example is Space Marine Bikers who come with a Bolt Pistol and must first exchange it for a Chainsword before being able to exchange a Melee weapon for a Special Weapon. The Special Weapon option isn't available to any model in the unit unless a model has first chosen and applied the Chainsword option.

I honestly think the order of operations thing is a red herring of sorts. I think we're better off discussing whether or not upgrading a specific model to a new profile resets that model's wargear to the "starting wargear" of the new profile. There is an ambiguity as we're never told to do so, but I don't think it's unreasonable to at least argue that if you turn a model from a Dude to a Tough Guy that you'd then look at the Army List Entry and see how a Tough Guy is equipped, effectively "resetting" the Wargear. This is actually how my gaming group tends to play things, but could easily be considered a house rule.

 _ghost_ wrote:
So there is a internal timeline of upgrade events when we write our army list?

that's cool.. that's fantastic..
...wait!...
thats BS!

eigther we give a scout the upgrades that are aviablle for a scout. or we upgrade a scout to a WGPL and then we may give this model upgrades that belong to a WGPL... that's it

Then tell me how a standard Space Marine Biker (not in the SW manual, read the BA manual or the SM manual) takes a Special weapon. You do that for me, and you'll see that there HAS to be an internal timeline. I'll give you two hints: 1) Bolt Pistol doesn't count as a CCW, and 2) the codex establishes that when the codex says "boltgun", it's talking about the specific weapon, not the category of firearms. And, as has been pointed out, there's noting actually PREVENTING a WGPL from having a sniper, there just isn't anything that specifically allows it under normal circumstances. The jump pack specifically says it's not compatible with either terminator armor or a Thunderwolf Mount.

 Ghaz wrote:
"I want to shoot my heavy bolter. It had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result last turn. That was a previous turn, so I can ignore the 'Weapon Destroyed' result and shoot a weapon I can't legally shoot."

"I want to upgrade my Wolf Scout to a Wolf Scout Pack Leader. He has a sniper rifle that a Wolf Scout Pack Leader can't take. That was a previous step in building my army list, so I can ignore the fact that the Wolf Scout Pack Leader would have a weapon he can't legally have."

Its the exact same situation requiring you to ignorie a previous result or choice that would lead to an illegal situation. So again, please provide a rule to supports allowing the sniper rifle on the Wolf Scout Pack Leader but not firing the heavy bolter the turn after it had a 'Weapon Destroyed' result.

Frankly, I want to stay out of this because I believe one thing and don't care what others on the internet I'll never meet want to say, but what you're saying, objectively speaking, doesn't sound similar. Taking the ordinary meaning of the word "Destroyed" to mean "KABOOM!!!" then Weapon Destroyed obviously means the weapon is gone, with other rules interact to let you repair it. It's gone. Its a negative rules change that removes a permitted ability.

With the WS to WGPL, you have a model being upgraded. Positive change. There's no wording to suggest its illegal at all. In fact, there isn't even anything to say a WGPL can't take a Sniper Rifle, as it completely omits any correlation between the two. BUT, there is permission to give a WS a rifle, and there is permission to upgrade any WS to a WGPL, and there's nothing to suggest that you can't make it the same model. That's like saying a model can't exchange his bolt pistol for a plasma pistol because he already exchanged his bolter for a power weapon and you can't upgrade the same character twice. See, it's just a gak show of throwing around alternative interpretations of a complex language.


Quite frankly, OP, one side says black and the other says white, so do it if you want and argue your case. There's no arbitrator in this game if you're playing a friendly, and its entirely down to the TO at any tournament so do it if you want and roll with it.

Zarius wrote:
....And, as has been pointed out, there's noting actually PREVENTING a WGPL from having a sniper, there just isn't anything that specifically allows it under normal circumstances. The jump pack specifically says it's not compatible with either terminator armor or a Thunderwolf Mount.

So we have a permisive ruleset... there is the allowment for scouts to take sniper rifles. but there is nothing that allows a WGPL to take a sniper rifle... so maybe just maybe it is this way because a WGPL is not allowd to take a sniper rifle.

When a unit has multiple models types in it, GW has been pretty consistent in how it describes which upgrades are meant for which model and what gear each model type starts with.

When they want all models in the unit to have access to something, it says "Any Model may take/replace/upgrade XXXX".

If they only one one of the models types to take something, they implicitly call out the model name in the rule "Model X may take/replace/upgrade YYYY"

Any semantic gymnastics to try and create a loophole where Model Y can take something that is listed for Model X is just that a loophole.

With this unit you have a choice. Do you want a WGPL or another WS with a sniper rifle in the unit. Only you can answer this question as you have to determine if the benefits of the WGPL outweighs the benefit of another sniper rifle in the unit based on how you use it.

 _ghost_ wrote:

Zarius wrote:
....And, as has been pointed out, there's noting actually PREVENTING a WGPL from having a sniper, there just isn't anything that specifically allows it under normal circumstances. The jump pack specifically says it's not compatible with either terminator armor or a Thunderwolf Mount.

So we have a permisive ruleset... there is the allowment for scouts to take sniper rifles. but there is nothing that allows a WGPL to take a sniper rifle... so maybe just maybe it is this way because a WGPL is not allowd to take a sniper rifle.

Source or quote the rule that expressly prohibits the combination of a WGPL and a Sniper rifle. There's express prohibition of terminator armor combined with bikes, mounts, and jet packs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll be lenient. Source me ANY rule from ANY SM manual or the BRB that expressly prohibits standard troops or troops in Power Armor from having a sniper rifle.

Zarius:

its the other way. Show me any source that literaly allows a WGPL to take a Sniper rifle. just a straight forward line or sentence that tells you this. not any jumpy loolphole argumentation. You need this to be able to take a sniper rifle. This is how a permissive ruleset works.

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Ahem! If we could all stop bickering, I believe you all missed my post a few pages back. Giving a wolf guard pack leader a sniper rifle before he becomes a wolf guard pack leader is the same as giving a wolf lord a jump pack before he has terminator armour. And we all know that is not on. Case closed.

No it is not. There is an actual rule that says a model may not have terminator armor and a jump pack...

"May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour or models who have a Thunderwolf mount"

If you have Terminator armor you can not have a jump pack.

Ah, but at the time the model was given a jump pack (sniper rifle) it was not wearing Terminator Armor (upgraded to WGPL).

There is no restriction for a upgraded to WGPL and the sniper rifle though. Like there is with the jump pack and Terminator Armor.

There is a specific rule against the Terminator Armor and jump pack model...

The WGPL is not illegal at the end of the build where the Terminator Armor model is.

So that is not the same situation at all.

 _ghost_ wrote:
Zarius:

its the other way. Show me any source that literaly[sic] allows a WGPL to take a Sniper rifle. just a straight forward line or sentence that tells you this. not any jumpy loolphole[sic] argumentation. You need this to be able to take a sniper rifle. This is how a permissive ruleset works.

A Scout can, and the model is a scout that gets upgraded to a WGPL, and since there is nothing saying that he can not have a Sniper rifle, he retains his gear.

Or are you saying all of the scout gear goes away when we upgrade him to a WGPL?

So is the scout rifle a upgrade for Scouts or the gear of a "nude" scout? it its the first. then sorry. no scout rifle for a WPGL if is the second then we can talk again about this.

 _ghost_ wrote:
So is the scout rifle a upgrade for Scouts or the gear of a "nude" scout? it its the first. then sorry. no scout rifle for a WPGL if is the second then we can talk again about this.

It is gear that is an upgrade, but where does it say that the model loses its gear when it gets upgraded to a WGPL?

 _ghost_ wrote:
So is the scout rifle a upgrade for Scouts or the gear of a "nude" scout? it its the first. then sorry. no scout rifle for a WPGL if is the second then we can talk again about this.

As previously mentioned, it's a permissive rules set, not a declination set. That means that once something has something, as long as the rules for your upgrade don't expressly prohibit it, it should have it. Just because I give my scout a promotion doesn't mean he forgets how to shoot a sniper rifle.

YES, I'm using promotion theory. YES, I'm basing it off of real world examples, and a certain amount of RL logic (that being the question of "why the heck would I put a new guy into a scout unit to command them when I can just promote the most effective of them?"). If GW can use RL examples and logic to explain things in the manual, then so the heck can I. Don't be pissing and moaning about it.

The moment a scout is upgraded to a WGPL it is no longer a scout it is a WPGL ... as the WGPL can'ot take a sniper rifle.. its no longer a legal build. You are not allowed to field such a Unit build. No matter if you say its gone.. or if you say you take it away.. or what else.. You have no permission to field a WPGL with a scout rifle. period.

 _ghost_ wrote:
The moment a scout is upgraded to a WGPL it is no longer a scout it is a WPGL ... as the WGPL can'ot take a sniper rifle.. its no longer a legal build. You are not allowed to field such a Unit build. No matter if you say its gone.. or if you say you take it away.. or what else.. You have no permission to field a WPGL with a scout rifle. period.

Why cant the WGPL have a Sniper rifle?

What rule prohibits this?

 _ghost_ wrote:
The moment a scout is upgraded to a WGPL it is no longer a scout it is a WPGL ... as the WGPL can'ot take a sniper rifle.. its no longer a legal build. You are not allowed to field such a Unit build. No matter if you say its gone.. or if you say you take it away.. or what else.. You have no permission to field a WPGL with a scout rifle. period.

Source this rule.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Because the rulebook I read says "UPGRADE" scout, not "replace scout with." That inherently says that you're gaining, but not loosing unless specifically specified, such as with the armor.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Ahem! If we could all stop bickering, I believe you all missed my post a few pages back. Giving a wolf guard pack leader a sniper rifle before he becomes a wolf guard pack leader is the same as giving a wolf lord a jump pack before he has terminator armour. And we all know that is not on. Case closed.

No it is not. There is an actual rule that says a model may not have terminator armor and a jump pack...

"May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour or models who have a Thunderwolf mount"

If you have Terminator armor you can not have a jump pack.

Ah, but at the time the model was given a jump pack (sniper rifle) it was not wearing Terminator Armor (upgraded to WGPL).

There is no restriction for a upgraded to WGPL and the sniper rifle though. Like there is with the jump pack and Terminator Armor.

There is a specific rule against the Terminator Armor and jump pack model...

The WGPL is not illegal at the end of the build where the Terminator Armor model is.

So that is not the same situation at all.

There is no restriction on a model with a Jump pack from taking terminator armour,

 DeathReaper wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:
The moment a scout is upgraded to a WGPL it is no longer a scout it is a WPGL ... as the WGPL can'ot take a sniper rifle.. its no longer a legal build. You are not allowed to field such a Unit build. No matter if you say its gone.. or if you say you take it away.. or what else.. You have no permission to field a WPGL with a scout rifle. period.

Why cant the WGPL have a Sniper rifle?

What rule prohibits this?

Only by lack of permission to take one as a WGPL.

The unprovable case is if the WGPL can acquire Wargear before his upgrade and retain it through the upgrade. No specific directions are provided on this in any direction. All we know is what the base Wargear of the WGPL is, that is all. Any such ruling will be purely a House Rule.

However, with such a lack of precedence and direction, it would be the more cheesy move to add and replace Wargear before the upgrade and have that Wargear retained through the process. Some groups welcome the extremes that this can take the game, and they are welcome to it. Personally, I prefer to not threaten my playtime with such an action, I get so little of it as it is. Oddly enough, this is one reason I left my Templars behind and went to Necrons. Their upgrades are on a much simpler path.

The Options panel lists unit upgrades.



Upgrade means "to get something better than what you had originally"

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Ahem! If we could all stop bickering, I believe you all missed my post a few pages back. Giving a wolf guard pack leader a sniper rifle before he becomes a wolf guard pack leader is the same as giving a wolf lord a jump pack before he has terminator armour. And we all know that is not on. Case closed.

No it is not. There is an actual rule that says a model may not have terminator armor and a jump pack...

"May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour or models who have a Thunderwolf mount"

If you have Terminator armor you can not have a jump pack.

Ah, but at the time the model was given a jump pack (sniper rifle) it was not wearing Terminator Armor (upgraded to WGPL).

There is no restriction for a upgraded to WGPL and the sniper rifle though. Like there is with the jump pack and Terminator Armor.

There is a specific rule against the Terminator Armor and jump pack model...

The WGPL is not illegal at the end of the build where the Terminator Armor model is.

So that is not the same situation at all.

There is no restriction on a model with a Jump pack from taking terminator armour,

Except that there IS a specific restriction on a unit in terminator armor from using a Jump pack. Logically, yes, you COULD do that. But again, my point about the fact that the jump pack wouldn't be able to physically lift the terminator armor stands. You want to shove a JP on your termi, go for it. It still won't give him jump speed, because he's still too fat for it.

A WPGL that was, previous to upgrade, a sniper would still have the ability to use a sniper rifle. Nothing says that gear choices reset when a unit is upgraded, or that a sniper rifle is specifically incompatible with ANY unit in power armor. It's just that the scouts are the only ones given the ability to TAKE snipers in the first place..



Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
The Options panel lists unit upgrades.

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Upgrade means "to get something better than what you had originally"

Yeah, and? You still have yet to show evidence that this means that you replace the whole model and not just the required gear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You keep harping on that, Col, but never actually providing anything resembling evidence to your point. Pony up, or stop talking about it.

Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Ahem! If we could all stop bickering, I believe you all missed my post a few pages back. Giving a wolf guard pack leader a sniper rifle before he becomes a wolf guard pack leader is the same as giving a wolf lord a jump pack before he has terminator armour. And we all know that is not on. Case closed.

No it is not. There is an actual rule that says a model may not have terminator armor and a jump pack...

"May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour or models who have a Thunderwolf mount"

If you have Terminator armor you can not have a jump pack.

Ah, but at the time the model was given a jump pack (sniper rifle) it was not wearing Terminator Armor (upgraded to WGPL).

There is no restriction for a upgraded to WGPL and the sniper rifle though. Like there is with the jump pack and Terminator Armor.

There is a specific rule against the Terminator Armor and jump pack model...

The WGPL is not illegal at the end of the build where the Terminator Armor model is.

So that is not the same situation at all.

There is no restriction on a model with a Jump pack from taking terminator armour,

Yeah there is, there is the little note that says "cannot be selected by models wearing Terminator Armour." Without the Chaos book, I'm using the SM Captain entry for example. In this case, the first half of the options states "May replace CCW with Relic Blade," then "may select options from Melee, Ranged, Special Issue Wargear, and Relics." Then it says "may replace [all wargear] with Terminator Armour, Power Sword, Iron Halo and Stormbolter." It then restates that a TDA captain can replace his Power Sword with a relic blade, as he no longer has a CCW to replace, but that does not remove his permission to buy one, he just doesn't have a CCW is all. Its like going into a shop with no money, you are still allowed to buy something, just don't have the means. You then have the "may take from the Terminator, Special Gear and Relics" options. Permission to take from the melee and ranged weapons has not actually been revoked, as he is still.a Captain. He just doesn't have weapons for trading. Now, the special gear kicks in. See he still has options for Special Issue Wargear such as Auspex for example, but now that he has terminator armour, he is specifically prohibited from selecting a Jump Pack. But he can still take an Auspex.
Do it in reverse, if you take the Jump Pack, you can then not take Terminator Armour as the two are expressly not compatible.

Charistoph wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 _ghost_ wrote:
The moment a scout is upgraded to a WGPL it is no longer a scout it is a WPGL ... as the WGPL can'ot take a sniper rifle.. its no longer a legal build. You are not allowed to field such a Unit build. No matter if you say its gone.. or if you say you take it away.. or what else.. You have no permission to field a WPGL with a scout rifle. period.

Why cant the WGPL have a Sniper rifle?

What rule prohibits this?

Only by lack of permission to take one as a WGPL.

The unprovable case is if the WGPL can acquire Wargear before his upgrade and retain it through the upgrade. No specific directions are provided on this in any direction. All we know is what the base Wargear of the WGPL is, that is all. Any such ruling will be purely a House Rule.

However, with such a lack of precedence and direction, it would be the more cheesy move to add and replace Wargear before the upgrade and have that Wargear retained through the process. Some groups welcome the extremes that this can take the game, and they are welcome to it. Personally, I prefer to not threaten my playtime with such an action, I get so little of it as it is. Oddly enough, this is one reason I left my Templars behind and went to Necrons. Their upgrades are on a much simpler path.

A lack of express permission is not implicit denial of that permission. GW is completely silent on the matter, therefore there is no official ruling either way and you're free to play it as you want and can argue.

Then i can roll a d6 and claim to win on a result of 1+

GW never stated that this is not a legal way to win a game. therefore there is no official ruling and i am free to play as i want .

40k is a permissive ruleset. so i need permission to do stuff. not the other way around

col_impact wrote:
The Options panel lists unit upgrades.

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Upgrade means "to get something better than what you had originally"

Yes, that's ONE meaning. It can also mean to take something and enhance it to make it better... leaving you with the original thing... only improved. This is why one of the tenants of this forum is to NOT use dictionary definitions. Words can have multiple meanings.

In other words, try a different argument. Yours isn't good and also happens to violate the tenants.

 Deadshot wrote:
A lack of express permission is not implicit denial of that permission. GW is completely silent on the matter, therefore there is no official ruling either way and you're free to play it as you want and can argue.

Indeed. In this case we're looking at two angles of instructions and permissions that we do not have.

 Deadshot wrote:

Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 Kavish wrote:
Ahem! If we could all stop bickering, I believe you all missed my post a few pages back. Giving a wolf guard pack leader a sniper rifle before he becomes a wolf guard pack leader is the same as giving a wolf lord a jump pack before he has terminator armour. And we all know that is not on. Case closed.

No it is not. There is an actual rule that says a model may not have terminator armor and a jump pack...

"May not be taken by models wearing Terminator armour or models who have a Thunderwolf mount"

If you have Terminator armor you can not have a jump pack.

Ah, but at the time the model was given a jump pack (sniper rifle) it was not wearing Terminator Armor (upgraded to WGPL).

There is no restriction for a upgraded to WGPL and the sniper rifle though. Like there is with the jump pack and Terminator Armor.

There is a specific rule against the Terminator Armor and jump pack model...

The WGPL is not illegal at the end of the build where the Terminator Armor model is.

So that is not the same situation at all.

There is no restriction on a model with a Jump pack from taking terminator armour,

Yeah there is, there is the little note that says "cannot be selected by models wearing Terminator Armour." Without the Chaos book, I'm using the SM Captain entry for example. In this case, the first half of the options states "May replace CCW with Relic Blade," then "may select options from Melee, Ranged, Special Issue Wargear, and Relics." Then it says "may replace [all wargear] with Terminator Armour, Power Sword, Iron Halo and Stormbolter." It then restates that a TDA captain can replace his Power Sword with a relic blade, as he no longer has a CCW to replace, but that does not remove his permission to buy one, he just doesn't have a CCW is all. Its like going into a shop with no money, you are still allowed to buy something, just don't have the means. You then have the "may take from the Terminator, Special Gear and Relics" options. Permission to take from the melee and ranged weapons has not actually been revoked, as he is still.a Captain. He just doesn't have weapons for trading. Now, the special gear kicks in. See he still has options for Special Issue Wargear such as Auspex for example, but now that he has terminator armour, he is specifically prohibited from selecting a Jump Pack. But he can still take an Auspex.
Do it in reverse, if you take the Jump Pack, you can then not take Terminator Armour as the two are expressly not compatible..

In that case you might want to recheck your codex.
1. There is no restriction on a model that has a jump pack from taking terminator armour. There is a restriction on a model in terminator armour from taking a jump pack.
2. The Captain entry specifically calls out what gear is traded for Terminator armor. Specifically "bolt pistol, chainsword, frag and krak grenades" Unlike say the BA codex where the Captain also trades in his power armor.

Zarius wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:
The Options panel lists unit upgrades.

Spoiler:

Options: This section lists all of the upgrades you may add to the unit if you wish to do so, alongside the associated points cost for each.

Upgrade means "to get something better than what you had originally"

Yeah, and? You still have yet to show evidence that this means that you replace the whole model and not just the required gear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You keep harping on that, Col, but never actually providing anything resembling evidence to your point. Pony up, or stop talking about it.

So you upgrade the unit and you get a model that is better than the model you originally had. That is implicitly replacing. And that is the rules supported way.

They gave me a stock response.

fething hell they can't be up to their eyeballs in work to the point they can't pop down to the codex department and put their heads through the door and say "Yo, can a WGPL take a Sniper?" which gives them an answer and takes them all of five minutes.

Customer service my ass.