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Well I wouldn't pay 35 for a Terminator either, but it IS still a step in the right direction.

True.

Vehicles generally are punished hard compared to 5th. HPs are ok as a concept but vehicles need more over all. It's to easy to glance things to death.

Like pointed out by many, its not only the LR who's at fault, its also the rules that changed over the editions.

From 2nd to 5th Ed, LR where formidable tanks.

Highest armor value, largest transport capacity for a tank, mixed firepower for anti tanks and anti infantry, that could target both with PotMS and assault vehicle.

Even when the base cost without any options was 250pts it was an awesome ride.

What happened is simpply the apparition of more powerfull weaponry, changed vehicles rules and the apparition of HP's.

Also the apparition of units and vehicles that are more deadly/durable/cheaper compared to it.

Someone said that a LR cost nearly as much as a Wraithknight, no one should ever compare the points of something with a WK, WK are undercosted and broken for what they can do, plus its a GMC.

Compare a tank with another tank, not a GMC with a tank, because there will be dissapointement anyways.


The Land raider real problem is that it is an out-dated unit compared to many things that got through some changes during the years.

The only things that the LR changed is a slight points drop and some new loyalist variants or the weapons loadout, but basically at his core the LR is still the same as it was in 3rd.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 btgrimaldus wrote:
its an AV 14 all round with good troop capacity and good weapons, it serves it's purpose.

In all fairness - how can it serve it's purpose when it's dead from a suicide drop pod melta squad on turn 1? Then you have stranded assault units that probably have no mobility. Everytime I take it this happens...I am not kidding.

Fixing the game, not the unit would be a better start. Over saturation of alpha striking units, Grav weapons, and increasing number of high strength low AP shooty units is part of what's killing this game. Forgeworld is the biggest culprit on power creep. Rules that support meta gaming are by and large what makes unit A, B, C must haves and Units X, Y, Z, duds.

HOW is FW the biggest culprit with power creep? They make 2-3 extremely odd units compared to the dozens that GW does?

Yeah, FW tends to be less OP then normal GW these days. Looking at the Tau lineup, the only ones that could qualify as OP are the riptide varients (and even then, the normal riptide is even with them) and the Tau'nar (which is about even with a squad of the new GCs). The rest are largely below the tau codex power level.

5 HP is definately in order. A predator has 3 and look at the size of the thing compared to a pred.

FW the main cultprit? That hasn't been true since 5th.

There's a few cuckoo-crazy FW units, but not too terribly many anymore. Even the ones that just drive me flaming bugnuts are actually reasonably balanced now, usually.

jade_angel wrote:
There's a few cuckoo-crazy FW units, but not too terribly many anymore. Even the ones that just drive me flaming bugnuts are actually reasonably balanced now, usually.

Theres a few units that are still in a league of their own. Flying riptide with 2 ap2 pseudo torrent flamers is insanely OP. Eldar hornets are at about a 50% discount from what they should cost. Chaos fire raptor...Loth with 2++ and picking spells. These are the main things that bother me. Everything else GW or FW makes plenty of unbalanced units below these units levels. FW LR arent that bad.

 Xenomancers wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
There's a few cuckoo-crazy FW units, but not too terribly many anymore. Even the ones that just drive me flaming bugnuts are actually reasonably balanced now, usually.

Theres a few units that are still in a league of their own. Flying riptide with 2 ap2 pseudo torrent flamers is insanely OP. Eldar hornets are at about a 50% discount from what they should cost. Chaos fire raptor...Loth with 2++ and picking spells. These are the main things that bother me. Everything else GW or FW makes plenty of unbalanced units below these units levels. FW LR arent that bad.

Honestly, the Y'Vahra isn't any more OP than the regular riptide. Keep in mind, a riptide with ion acc, EWO and stims costs 225 points. Whereas the Y'vahra with stims and VRT costs 270. And that's with one less wound and all short ranged weaponry. It's still damn good, but it's no more OP than the regular riptide.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
There's a few cuckoo-crazy FW units, but not too terribly many anymore. Even the ones that just drive me flaming bugnuts are actually reasonably balanced now, usually.

Theres a few units that are still in a league of their own. Flying riptide with 2 ap2 pseudo torrent flamers is insanely OP. Eldar hornets are at about a 50% discount from what they should cost. Chaos fire raptor...Loth with 2++ and picking spells. These are the main things that bother me. Everything else GW or FW makes plenty of unbalanced units below these units levels. FW LR arent that bad.

Honestly, the Y'Vahra isn't any more OP than the regular riptide. Keep in mind, a riptide with ion acc, EWO and stims costs 225 points. Whereas the Y'vahra with stims and VRT costs 270. And that's with one less wound and all short ranged weaponry. It's still damn good, but it's no more OP than the regular riptide.

In my experience it has no problem destroying double it's points in every game. Ap2 templates on a super mobile platform just remove models and it's still tough as heck to kill. It doesn't need marker light support. If it actually gets into trouble it can just go back into reserves. People always complain about riptides not doing a lot of damage - this riptide doesn't have that problem.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
There's a few cuckoo-crazy FW units, but not too terribly many anymore. Even the ones that just drive me flaming bugnuts are actually reasonably balanced now, usually.

Theres a few units that are still in a league of their own. Flying riptide with 2 ap2 pseudo torrent flamers is insanely OP. Eldar hornets are at about a 50% discount from what they should cost. Chaos fire raptor...Loth with 2++ and picking spells. These are the main things that bother me. Everything else GW or FW makes plenty of unbalanced units below these units levels. FW LR arent that bad.

Honestly, the Y'Vahra isn't any more OP than the regular riptide. Keep in mind, a riptide with ion acc, EWO and stims costs 225 points. Whereas the Y'vahra with stims and VRT costs 270. And that's with one less wound and all short ranged weaponry. It's still damn good, but it's no more OP than the regular riptide.

In my experience it has no problem destroying double it's points in every game. Ap2 templates on a super mobile platform just remove models and it's still tough as heck to kill. It doesn't need marker light support. If it actually gets into trouble it can just go back into reserves. People always complain about riptides not doing a lot of damage - this riptide doesn't have that problem.

Different experiences I guess. It is pretty broken either way though.

I don't think superheavy really fits the Land Raider, I think reserve it for actual superheavies, but definitely reduce its cost and up transport capacity. Land Raiders (of all varieties, Chaos included) should have the ability to roll up with a full squad of Tacticals/5 Termies plus a character or two, as per awesometude fluff. But even still, 12 models is still not a lot.

Cheaper is the only answer, once you start adding in extra durabilities and stuff you might as well go the extra distance and just get a Spartan Assault Tank, which is more durable, more HP, more killy, CAN have Ceramite and holds a full 10 man Hammernator Squad WITH 2 Terminator Librarian supports/Captain beatsticks AND a Techmarine to keep it ticking over.

 Deadshot wrote:
I don't think superheavy really fits the Land Raider, I think reserve it for actual superheavies, but definitely reduce its cost and up transport capacity. Land Raiders (of all varieties, Chaos included) should have the ability to roll up with a full squad of Tacticals/5 Termies plus a character or two, as per awesometude fluff. But even still, 12 models is still not a lot.

Cheaper is the only answer, once you start adding in extra durabilities and stuff you might as well go the extra distance and just get a Spartan Assault Tank, which is more durable, more HP, more killy, CAN have Ceramite and holds a full 10 man Hammernator Squad WITH 2 Terminator Librarian supports/Captain beatsticks AND a Techmarine to keep it ticking over.

What would be the right price point? 180? 200?

I think 180 is probably about right, yeah.

That's still the cost of a Riptide to carry a unit that no one cares about to perform an assault that no one cares about.

Martel732 wrote:
That's still the cost of a Riptide to carry a unit that no one cares about to perform an assault that no one cares about.

5 man hamernator is beast in CC - it just has no viable deliervery method - at this cost it would bring the cost of that squad down 70 points. could be viable.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's still the cost of a Riptide to carry a unit that no one cares about to perform an assault that no one cares about.

5 man hamernator is beast in CC - it just has no viable deliervery method - at this cost it would bring the cost of that squad down 70 points. could be viable.

The survivability issue is the reason you only ever see Hammernators, if the Land Raider was cheaper you may see Clawnaters again.

Martel732 wrote:
That's still the cost of a Riptide to carry a unit that no one cares about to perform an assault that no one cares about.

And the riptide is criminally under-priced.

For what it is, yeah, I'll concede that the Riptide is undercosted (by 50pts, probably, to say nothing of the mess that is the Ion Accelerator).

But, I think much less than 180 for a Land Raider makes them a little too spammable, and AV14 is still sufficiently hard to budge that there could be problems from that.

And actually, if Land Raiders were cheap enough to be usefully used, you might be able to schlep something other than a death star in them, and they might attract a bit less fire, and therefore actually be able to make it into combat.

They do need a little extra something, though. Possibly a variant on PoTMS that allows them to still move when suffering a Crew Stunned result (at the cost of not being able to use it for shooting that turn, maybe?), and something like 30k's Auxiliary Drive.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's still the cost of a Riptide to carry a unit that no one cares about to perform an assault that no one cares about.

And the riptide is criminally under-priced.

And yet still exists, unfortunately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
For what it is, yeah, I'll concede that the Riptide is undercosted (by 50pts, probably, to say nothing of the mess that is the Ion Accelerator).

But, I think much less than 180 for a Land Raider makes them a little too spammable, and AV14 is still sufficiently hard to budge that there could be problems from that.

And actually, if Land Raiders were cheap enough to be usefully used, you might be able to schlep something other than a death star in them, and they might attract a bit less fire, and therefore actually be able to make it into combat.

They do need a little extra something, though. Possibly a variant on PoTMS that allows them to still move when suffering a Crew Stunned result (at the cost of not being able to use it for shooting that turn, maybe?), and something like 30k's Auxiliary Drive.

Ignorable AV 14. You are still paying 180 pts for terrible firepower that can't be used while moving.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
That's still the cost of a Riptide to carry a unit that no one cares about to perform an assault that no one cares about.

5 man hamernator is beast in CC - it just has no viable deliervery method - at this cost it would bring the cost of that squad down 70 points. could be viable.

Really? Paying 350+ points to hammer down one unit?

Maybe making Land Raiders a Heavy typee tank might help a little? In addition to the other stuff that has been stated. As it is, if you move the Land Raider it can only fire 1 weapon at full BS (not including the POTMS). Making it heavy would mean it could move and fire all it's weapons at full BS.

 War Kitten wrote:
Maybe making Land Raiders a Heavy typee tank might help a little? In addition to the other stuff that has been stated. As it is, if you move the Land Raider it can only fire 1 weapon at full BS (not including the POTMS). Making it heavy would mean it could move and fire all it's weapons at full BS.

Yeah it's a big downer that it can't move and shoot all its weapons at full BS...plus the fact that it can get immobilized. This is why when I have used my LR I have used it as a counter assault vehicle to protect my gun-line - using TLLC as supporting fire and using assault terms to deny access to my front lines. At 250 points it's not worth that. At 180 - it has reasonable firepower and is a safe place to hide an assault unit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
HOW is FW the biggest culprit with power creep? They make 2-3 extremely odd units compared to the dozens that GW does?

It's my opinion, there are a lot of models that take existing units and bends or breaks the rules. Forgeworld mentality....... Oh that unit doesn't have enough ap 3-2 weaponry......make a new arm bit .......bamm..... tanks become one step more to useless. Later they'll realize tanks aren't viable, well lets make a few new turrets and/or add some special rules anddddd.....bam better. right?

Wrong!

You are right the problem starts with GW, but forgeworld does not help matters by making unit type A better so later they need to make unit type B better.

Trouble with making it Heavy is, it's limited to only a 6" move. No Cruising Speed, no Flat Out. It's bad enough that you can only move 6" the turn you want to disembark, but to also remove the ability to bend on maximum speed on Turn 1, so you'll be in position turn 2 even if you get immobilized, basically makes the Land Raider near-useless except as a gun platform, which is a role it doesn't perform particularly well.


Ok, here's a possible variant: all base-Codex Land Raider variants get Fast and +2 Transport Capacity. Additionally, they gain:

Reinforced Drive Systems: If the vehicle suffers a Crew Stunned or Immobilized result on the Vehicle Damage Table, roll a d6. On a 4+, treat the result as a glancing hit instead. If the vehicle additionally has Extra Armour, this roll may be attempted before the Extra Armour mitigates a Stunned result to Shaken.

Ammunition blowout panels: If the vehicle suffers an Explodes! result on the Vehicle Damage Table, roll a d6. On a 4+, treat the result as Weapon Destroyed instead.

Reinforced Armor: A vehicle with Reinforced Armor has a 6+ invulnerable save against shooting attacks (including Witchfires).

Additionally, all three base-codex variants would have their costs reduced by 50 points. The Godhammer lascannons on the Phobos would be able to fire with one of two profiles:

R48 S9 AP2 Heavy 1 Twin-Linked --OR--
R48 S9 AP2 Heavy 2

<thinko fix>

jade_angel wrote:
Trouble with making it Heavy is, it's limited to only a 6" move. No Combat Speed, no Flat Out. It's bad enough that you can only move 6" the turn you want to disembark, but to also remove the ability to bend on maximum speed on Turn 1, so you'll be in position turn 2 even if you get immobilized, basically makes the Land Raider near-useless except as a gun platform, which is a role it doesn't perform particularly well.


Ok, here's a possible variant: all base-Codex Land Raider variants get Fast and +2 Transport Capacity. Additionally, they gain:

Reinforced Drive Systems: If the vehicle suffers a Crew Stunned or Immobilized result on the Vehicle Damage Table, roll a d6. On a 4+, treat the result as a glancing hit instead. If the vehicle additionally has Extra Armour, this roll may be attempted before the Extra Armour mitigates a Stunned result to Shaken.

Ammunition blowout panels: If the vehicle suffers an Explodes! result on the Vehicle Damage Table, roll a d6. On a 4+, treat the result as Weapon Destroyed instead.

Reinforced Armor: A vehicle with Reinforced Armor has a 6+ invulnerable save against shooting attacks (including Witchfires).

Additionally, all three base-codex variants would have their costs reduced by 50 points. The Godhammer lascannons on the Phobos would be able to fire with one of two profiles:

R48 S9 AP2 Heavy 1 Twin-Linked --OR--
R48 S9 AP2 Heavy 2

I would be fine with this. The main reason why I suggested Heavy was because if the Land Raider moves at all it basically loses most of it's effective firepower. Land Raiders are far bigger than Leman Russes, but they're not Heavy.

 Xenomancers wrote:


Personally - I think they should be given super heavy status and a points increase. Keep the rules they have now with some new ones and an additional hull point.

I'm thinking 325 points
Same weapon options and transport capacity but now a super heavy tank with 5 HP. 14/14/14.

A bit late for the party, there is something pretty close - the Spartan assault tank. 4x twin linked lascannons, 25-man transport cap (!), 5 HP, 295 points. I thought it was a SHV, but after looking again it is not.

That.....honestly sounds like a decent deal to me, as LRs are already like 250 points or something.

Be careful what you wish for, though. Occupants of a SH transport all take str10 ap2 hits if their vehicle runs out of HP - even if it is glanced to death, it goes boom. And take it from me, as having used a kustom battle fortress many times, those HPs go fast and it SUCKS when it explodes with dudes inside.

Yeah, the Spartan is everything the Land Raider wants to be.


Honestly, Land Raiders are only feasible using the formation from the SM Codex that makes you take 3, and makes them immune to damage results except Explodes! If they atay within 6" of each other, but even then, that's still 720-850pts (dependent on variant and upgrades) for 3 models. If Land Raiders could ignore such results all the time, for 250pts, they'd be autotakes. Right now the only option is to drop them to 180pts, seeing as everything else got a pts reduction too, the Land Raider should too. AV14 and 4 HP isn't even that durable. Sure, more durable in base game. But a few turns of some Str 8 hits and poof, gone. Not even counting Necrons who don't giving a circus monkey about HP or AV numbers, who's base troop squad can wipe any vehicle off the board in 1 round, even superheavies if they roll enough dice.