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 Da Boss wrote:
Whatever about Labour, I don't think it can be argued (from a Remain perspective anyhow) that the Tories have done anything other than feth the country.

I hope there are a lot of regretful Tory Remainers out there who will be reconsidering their political allegiance in future.

I've said before that I'm sympathetic towards how you're feeling right now, having been there myself in 2014 with losing the Scottish referendum, but at this time, I'm reminded of that Jeff Daniels youtube video ( America is not the greatest)

There's a comment in it when Daniels' character asks: if liberals are so smart, why do they always lose?

And I'm seriously asking the same question: if the EU is so great, if liberals backed it, why did people vote to leave?

The remain camp was awful. Their arguments were awful. The EU has to take some of the blame for this. If they had given Cameron a cast iron deal to take back, then maybe they wouldn't be in this mess. Instead, we got fobbed off with guff about temporary handbrakes and people popping up to say it wasn't even legally binding! WTF???

The EU refused to concede a little, they thought Britain was bluffing. Now they're in danger of losing the lot...

Whirlwind wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:


How is that a blow? It's pretty obvious that is the case. Its quite possible that the UK leaves the EU on the Monday and an independent Scotland joins it on the Tuesday.

It's a blow because Scotland will have been hoping that as part of a member state already it can join without going through the leave then rejoin route. All the existing member states have to vote to accept Scotland and that may place extra demands on that aren't currently in the EU/UK deal. There may be even some that don't want the extra burden at the current time as Scotland's economy is smaller than the UK as whole ($233 billion vs $3 trillion) and it may shrink because of the close ties with England if we then go into a recession. A lot of this is also funded by North Sea oil as well which is heavily subsidised by the UK government as a whole (there is literally no tax on these operations). This is feasible because the UK is such a large economy, but the Scottish parliament may not be able to sustain this level of subsidy. At the price of oil and the drying up of the north sea wells that could then lead to a separate recession in Scotland as the economy rebalances. Other EU countries may not think this is a viable risk to take at a time when the world economy could be in turmoil because of England leaving the EU.

.

Agree with Mr Whirlwind, whole Scottish independence was based on oil revenue which made little sense at the time and less now.

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Whatever about Labour, I don't think it can be argued (from a Remain perspective anyhow) that the Tories have done anything other than feth the country.

I hope there are a lot of regretful Tory Remainers out there who will be reconsidering their political allegiance in future.

I've said before that I'm sympathetic towards how you're feeling right now, having been there myself in 2014 with losing the Scottish referendum, but at this time, I'm reminded of that Jeff Daniels youtube video ( America is not the greatest)

There's a comment in it when Daniels' character asks: if liberals are so smart, why do they always lose?

And I'm seriously asking the same question: if the EU is so great, if liberals backed it, why did people vote to leave?

The remain camp was awful. Their arguments were awful. The EU has to take some of the blame for this. If they had given Cameron a cast iron deal to take back, then maybe they wouldn't be in this mess. Instead, we got fobbed off with guff about temporary handbrakes and people popping up to say it wasn't even legally binding! WTF???

The EU refused to concede a little, they thought Britain was bluffing. Now they're in danger of losing the lot...

I really appreciate that you are not gloating about it (And can I say, the lot of you Leavers here have been classy in victory). So I'll not reply with the snark that comes to mind. Have a good one.

 Knockagh wrote:

Whirlwind wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:


How is that a blow? It's pretty obvious that is the case. Its quite possible that the UK leaves the EU on the Monday and an independent Scotland joins it on the Tuesday.

It's a blow because Scotland will have been hoping that as part of a member state already it can join without going through the leave then rejoin route. All the existing member states have to vote to accept Scotland and that may place extra demands on that aren't currently in the EU/UK deal. There may be even some that don't want the extra burden at the current time as Scotland's economy is smaller than the UK as whole ($233 billion vs $3 trillion) and it may shrink because of the close ties with England if we then go into a recession. A lot of this is also funded by North Sea oil as well which is heavily subsidised by the UK government as a whole (there is literally no tax on these operations). This is feasible because the UK is such a large economy, but the Scottish parliament may not be able to sustain this level of subsidy. At the price of oil and the drying up of the north sea wells that could then lead to a separate recession in Scotland as the economy rebalances. Other EU countries may not think this is a viable risk to take at a time when the world economy could be in turmoil because of England leaving the EU.

.

Agree with Mr Whirlwind, whole Scottish independence was based on oil revenue which made little sense at the time and less now.

Anybody who thinks Scottish independence is based on oil revenue clearly knows nothing about Scotland's economy.

Not having a go at my fellow dakka members, but two things I find funny:

1) Westminster talking about the risks and uncertainty of Scottish independence, oblivious to the fact that the UK economy is tanking after the EU referendum result

2) How the BREXIT campaign got away with having no plan for BREXIT, and yet, the SNP's 600 page whitepaper for Scottish independence was slated for not providing enough information...

I love this country's sense of humour...

The hypocrisy of Leave voters who don't want to let Scotland do the same thing stinks to high heaven.

 Da Boss wrote:

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Whatever about Labour, I don't think it can be argued (from a Remain perspective anyhow) that the Tories have done anything other than feth the country.

I hope there are a lot of regretful Tory Remainers out there who will be reconsidering their political allegiance in future.

I've said before that I'm sympathetic towards how you're feeling right now, having been there myself in 2014 with losing the Scottish referendum, but at this time, I'm reminded of that Jeff Daniels youtube video ( America is not the greatest)

There's a comment in it when Daniels' character asks: if liberals are so smart, why do they always lose?

And I'm seriously asking the same question: if the EU is so great, if liberals backed it, why did people vote to leave?

The remain camp was awful. Their arguments were awful. The EU has to take some of the blame for this. If they had given Cameron a cast iron deal to take back, then maybe they wouldn't be in this mess. Instead, we got fobbed off with guff about temporary handbrakes and people popping up to say it wasn't even legally binding! WTF???

The EU refused to concede a little, they thought Britain was bluffing. Now they're in danger of losing the lot...

I really appreciate that you are not gloating about it (And can I say, the lot of you Leavers here have been classy in victory). So I'll not reply with the snark that comes to mind. Have a good one.

You're the only person in the remain camp who knew what they wanted and where they're going. You've been upfront and honest about what you wanted, which I respected. Obviously, I voted to leave, but two thirds of my country voted to stay. I'm not happy with Scotland suffering another democratic deficit whilst being in the UK>

It's highly likely that Scotland will break away and will look to join the EU. You'd be more than welcome if you decide to head up to Scotland.

 Da Boss wrote:
The hypocrisy of Leave voters who don't want to let Scotland do the same thing stinks to high heaven.

Emmmm it was the Scottish people who decided not to leave.......

 Knockagh wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
The hypocrisy of Leave voters who don't want to let Scotland do the same thing stinks to high heaven.

Emmmm it was the Scottish people who decided not to leave.......

No, this is Leave voters not wanting Scotland to break away from the UK.

Sturgeon to veto Brexit:;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

 Mr. Burning wrote:

I didnt think the Lib Dems still existed, except in the recesses of student union bars.

They definitely still exist, they got wiped out in seats because of the lack of real balance in our first past the post system that favours the two main parties and which they have no real desire to change (in reality Labour should have changed this in the Blair years because Tories never will).

They still had 8% of the voter share at the last election but only got 1.2% of the seats. Partially one of the reasons I think that we are getting to this situation is because of this failure in our democratic system.

Compare the figures of the last election
Conservatives, 0.8% increase share of the vote; GAINED 3.7% of the seats
Labour, 1.5% increase share of the vote; LOST 4% of the seats
UKIP, 9.5% increase share of the vote; GAINED 0.15% of the seats
LD, 15.2% decrease share of the vote; LOST 7.5% of the seats
GREEN, 2.8% increase in the share of the vote, ZERO change
SNP, 3.1% increase in the share of the vote, GAINED 7.7% of the seats

So as you can see the first past the post method causes some real discrepancies in the number of seats. But you can already see the anti EU trend in UKIPs growth. However rather than actually really consider the implications the Tories patted themselves on the back and Labour started the long process of ripping itself to pieces (when in reality they would have probably been better sticking with Ed Miliband because he didn't actually do that badly). Lib Dems disappeared with a whimper whereas they would have probably been better to come out and apologies for sacrificing their ideals for a taste of power (if they had ended the coalition 2-3 years earlier when it became obviously apparent that the Tories were just using them they would have probably faired better).

On the other hand if the parties had really looked at what was going on that there was massive swings going on to UKIP they may have been able to see what the future held.

Liberals never recovered from Cleggs big broken promise - they still have not.

Hey this whole I'm peeved at the world for loosing is catching on! Maybe we can scrap democracy altogether out of this and just put the banks in charge #daretodream

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:


Anybody who thinks Scottish independence is based on oil revenue clearly knows nothing about Scotland's economy.

Not having a go at my fellow dakka members, but two things I find funny:

1) Westminster talking about the risks and uncertainty of Scottish independence, oblivious to the fact that the UK economy is tanking after the EU referendum result

2) How the BREXIT campaign got away with having no plan for BREXIT, and yet, the SNP's 600 page whitepaper for Scottish independence was slated for not providing enough information...

I love this country's sense of humour...

I wasn't saying Scotland's economy is based on oil just that it is a significant factor to consider just like the banking industry is a significant factor in England. Aberdeen has the second highest number of millionaires mainly on the back of the oil industry. Yes it also has a thriving banking, whiskey industry amongst many others as well. However even if oil only made up $30 billion of the economy losing that would result in a 10% decrease in the countries GDP and that would take a recession to balance out. It's the main reason that the UK continues to heavily subsidies the industry because of the wider economic implications.

I don't disagree with your comments on the Brexit campaign though!

 Frozocrone wrote:

 Knockagh wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
The hypocrisy of Leave voters who don't want to let Scotland do the same thing stinks to high heaven.

Emmmm it was the Scottish people who decided not to leave.......

No, this is Leave voters not wanting Scotland to break away from the UK.

its not just leave voters though. This is of concern to all who want the UK to remain intact, including some in Scotland who would prefer to be in the UK but despair at the leave vote.
The odd thing here is that indyref2 has reluctant support, but support nonetheless from people who are unionist at heart.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Liberals never recovered from Cleggs big broken promise - they still have not.

That failed to push the point that they were not in power, they were the very minor partner so had no way of pushing most of their manifesto, and have failed to push the point of how the Tories have acted without them moderating their actions.

Cleggy was Cameron's tea boy during that government. You'd never expect a tea boy to be able to tell a CEO what to do


Automatically Appended Next Post:
2nd Referendum Petition is being investigated for fraud. Stands at 3.2 million signs atm.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36634407

Any talk of a second referendum is horsegak.

This petition for a second referendum is horsegak.

Any talk of Parliament blocking the result is utter horsegak.

Why, because leave voters will either vote for UKIP by the millions or civil unrest and/or riots, will break out if people think they're getting stitched up.

The remain side really need to calm down and think this through. Farage would be in his element leading a Genreal Election campaign against a Parliament that was plotting to ignore the referendum result.

Saw a post on social media that sums the situation up pretty well. Though I did not expect a Leave victory, I did suspect that in the unlikely event of a Leave vote we still wouldn't get a Brexit and that it would be blocked somehow by Parliament or kicked into the long grass. Cameron has stitched up the Leave campaign by resigning instead of immediately invoking Article 50 like he said he would do prior to the Referendum (so he lied). He's basically passed the buck and the responsibility onto his future successor, who will lack the nerve to go through with it.



The only way Brexit will ever happen is if we elect a Eurosceptic government that supports Brexit, and that ain't going to happen with the current Parliament. So congratulations Remainers, you lost a fair democratic vote but you're still getting what you want. Parliament is just going to drag its heels and delay action for as long as possible.

How to contain Brexit.

1. Next week when Parlaiment sits Cameron can proclaim that in order to fulfil his obligation to honour the public will the process of leaving the EU will have to commence.

2. The first act is NOT to trigger Article 50 of the Dublin Treaty, but to repeal the European Community Act 1972 before which the UK could not legally join the EEC under UK law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Communities_Act_1972_(UK)

3. Therefore a bill to repeal the European Community Act 1972 must be proposed before parliament. Cameron proposes that bill.

4. Cameron offers the Tory party a free vote, everyone else takes their own cue.

Why this works.

On 12 January 1972 when Ted Heath signed documentation to take the UK into the EEC but it was provisory of a vote in parliament.
The European Communities Bill was passed into law and attained rotyal assent in October of that year.
Only after The European Communties Bill became law was the UK able to join the EEC legally under UK law.
There was a subsequent referendum called by the Labour party in 1974 to ratify membership which occurred in 1975. This ballot was advisory not binary.
The Uk never entered the EEC through a referendum process, it entered by Act of Parliament and the parliamentary process had to precede joining, just as it has to precede leaving.
Calls for the UK to trigger Article 50 are legal under EU law, but ignore UK law. For the government to trigger Article 50 without first repealing the legislation involved would be unconstitutional.

The UK could trigger Article 50 at any time, as this is an EU legislation this would be legal under EU law. After two years our membership would expire.
However doing so without first securing permission from parliament would be to act contrary to the European Communities Act 1972 and would be illegal in the UK.




Consequences.

This will in effect not involve denying the public the results of the referendum. The UK voted Leave so the UK government moves to the next stage, which is to make leaving legal under UK law.

The poll however was advisory not binary. A binary referendum is legally binding. The 2011 vote on proportional representation was binary, as was the 2014 Scottish Independence Referendum. The 2016 Brexit poll was not binary, it was only advisory.

Ignoring the poll will have consequences, but legally so long as the repeal of the European Community Act has a parliamentary vote set then in legal reality if not spirit the referendum result has been obeyed. MP's are free to vote as their conscience dictates, this is easy for constituencies with clear Remain majorities. For others a decision on how to vote could be reached after consulting the electorate, allowing for the huge negative impacts already it is very likely that the current mood to remain will still be evident at the time the bill to repeal the European Community Act is voted on.

A second referendum is not a viable alternative as it disregards the will of the people and sets a very negative precedent. The mood in the Uk is now more clearly to remain, leave voters still exist in large numbers, but those who did not vote will be more motivated to do, and the Bregreters will likely want a second chance to redeem their mistake in a legal fashion. The best method to do this is to honour the referendum results by tabling a repeal of the act of parliament that allowed us to join the EEC and then supporting our MP's to vote down the bill.

This last weeks events could in fact be the 'passing through fire' that reshapes the UK, raises the populace from their slumber and sets the nation on a forward track.

Democratic integrity saved and bullet dodged.

In other words, a stitch up. Ain't "democracy" grand?

It would be bad if that happened.


Then again. It's going to be bad anyway. Might as well move to an isolated island in the Atlantic.


Like Britain.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
In other words, a stitch up. Ain't "democracy" grand?

Millions will see it that way. Sorry, but it is preferable to the alternative.

I believe that most MP's who vote against repealing the European Communities Act would do so with full consent of their electorate, and those that do not would be forgiven by the majority as Brexit appears to be less and less of a good idea in hindsight.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
. So congratulations Remainers, you lost a fair democratic vote but you're still getting what you want. Parliament is just going to drag its heels and delay action for as long as possible.

No way. That ship has sailed.

Now it's the EU calling for swift action. And in Juncker's usual loudmouth style "it won't be friendly".

Junker is a bit of a donkey-cave isn't he?

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-36632956

Labor seems to be having a Brexit of it's own.

One of the things that I find sort of strange about this whole thing is that UK will get saddled with the Immigration and movement of people anyway. EU has made that a pretty central item in most of it's trade treaties. Just ask Norway.

You know, the country everyone has been holding up as a model of Britain's post-Brexit relationship with the EU?

Their president had some rather pointed advice for the UK before the referendum, which boiled down to 'Don't Do It'. Their treaty with the EU is horrible and basically they get shafted with EU regulations with NO SAY in them, as opposed to England, which has gotten it's way something like 83% of the time. (Riding over France and Germany frequently, some politicians of which called the EU a new British Empire.)


So, no, not really sure what leave was talking about when they whined about being under the Oppressive EU, when they got their way more frequently than they do in, say, the UN.

 Knockagh wrote:

Agree with Mr Whirlwind, whole Scottish independence was based on oil revenue which made little sense at the time and less now.

Oil revenue is nice but far from essential.
link 1
lInk 2

Whirlwind wrote:

It's a blow because Scotland will have been hoping that as part of a member state already it can join without going through the leave then rejoin route.

Citation needed.

An independent Scotland would never be able to use the UK's membership for the simple reason that an independent Scotland would not be the UK. I would expect a seemless transition into the EU though.

 Selym wrote:
Sturgeon to veto Brexit:;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36633244

Could not will, as discussed earlier in the thread Scotland won't actually block Brexit, Westminster simply won't allow it (well the little Englanders won't allow it at least). By making lots of noises about the possibility the SNP are simply applying pressure on Westminster into doing something heavy handed. Nicola Sturgeon knows exactly what she is doing. It would be utterly hilarious if the Scottish parliament did manage to block Brexit though, just imagine the Daily Mail comments section.......

Norway is a constitutional monarchy, they don't have a president.

That said, holding Norway up as a model is eminently silly: the country has a budget SURPLUS. They have zero foreign debt.

 Silent Puffin? wrote:


An independent Scotland would never be able to use the UK's membership for the simple reason that an independent Scotland would not be the UK. I would expect a seemless transition into the EU though.

Hmm I'm not so sure, this is different from before when Scotland wanted to leave and rejoin. If you spin it on its head you could argue that this is England and Wales vote on independence from the UK. An element of the UK still remains, just as if Scotland had gone independent and didn't want to join the EU.

It may actually be preferred, the UK will still have a vote in the EU until it leaves so you could have England blocking Scotland joining; or alternatively if the Scotland joins before we leave they could block any agreement. It would be much cleaner if in effect Scotland never leaves and England and Wales just exit the 'union'.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Junker is a bit of a donkey-cave isn't he?

He's every bit our Boris Farage. With a dash of Trump.

 welshhoppo wrote:
It would be bad if that happened.


Then again. It's going to be bad anyway. Might as well move to an isolated island in the Atlantic.


Like Britain.

Britain is that pointless collection of rocks, whose location can be described as follows:

>20 mins from Russia by nuke
>Directly between the USA and the EU
>Sufficiently close to the north pole to have rubbish weather
>Sufficiently close to warmer climates that the Brits are permanently pissed off that their moaning about the weather is unjustified
>In the diplomatic and economic firing line of bloody everywhere.