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 Brennonjw wrote:
are we that spoiled that we now NEED free stuff for a formation to be 'good'? I understand it's not amazing, but come on, really? What's next, are we gonna demand that Kans, deff dreads, and stompas be MC/GMC since those are better then walker rules?

We don't need it to be "free stuff good" but it should not be bad. You could at least expect that the main formation isn't a nerf and the update should not invalidate a build some players like to use. The good core in Ghazcurion is just a copy of the formation already present in the ork codex but worse and the other is a reprint of a sucky & rarely used campaign formation that they somehow managed to make worse. They also missed the opportunity to include the looted wagon in this supplement, that was "forgotten" in the main codex.
Why would we ever want to spend good money on a supplement that is a bad copy of what we already have ?

Seriously all builds that don't include Ghaz are better of using just the formation in the ork codex.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Nope. Green Tide is now illegal.

In the other thread, I suggested that Ork players call the support line: 1-800-394-4263.

I don't know if anybody actually called. I did, and got a real person who at least commiserated, and passed on the complaints to GW in England.

Will you PLEASE call!! A real ork would at least do that. We need all the help we can get.

Well, be honest. How much help do you think it'll do to complain to some minimum wage employee, who is probably located in india to boot, about how you don't like the new ork book? The guy on the other end of the line probably doesn't even know anything about the game and reads from a script anyways.

That is, assuming that british customer service hotlines work like American ones do.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Nope. Green Tide is now illegal.

In the other thread, I suggested that Ork players call the support line: 1-800-394-4263.

I don't know if anybody actually called. I did, and got a real person who at least commiserated, and passed on the complaints to GW in England.

Will you PLEASE call!! A real ork would at least do that. We need all the help we can get.

Well, be honest. How much help do you think it'll do to complain to some minimum wage employee, who is probably located in india to boot, about how you don't like the new ork book? The guy on the other end of the line probably doesn't even know anything about the game and reads from a script anyways.

That is, assuming that british customer service hotlines work like American ones do.

I talked to him yesterday. I think he is in the US, and he plays the game. How much pull does he have? Probably zero, but on the off chance that he has a minuscule amount of sway with GW, we should hit him like a ton of bricks.

It's a free call.

I know folks are tired of the stonewall treatment, and have given up trying. But DELETING THE GREEN TIDE? Doesn't that mean anything to anybody?

I found the formation to be horrible overrated, but it did not deserved to be silently deleted in an update.

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
Is there a way to tell the 2 versions apart?

There sure is!

One is is brutally cunning.
The other is cunningly brutal.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
Is there a way to tell the 2 versions apart?

There sure is!

One is is brutally cunning.
The other is cunningly brutal.

you just made my day, exalted : D

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
Is there a way to tell the 2 versions apart?

There sure is!

One is is brutally cunning.
The other is cunningly brutal.

This person gets it!

You know what?

Now that I think about it we got about 5 good/great codex since Necron (Necron/Eldar/SM/Dark Angels/Tau) and that is about the number GW is able to pull off before then starting to make a bunch of gakky one.

So yeah it's only business as usual carry on folks.

Blood Angels are next.
Merry Sanguinala!

 Brennonjw wrote:

Commissar Benny wrote:
Forgive me if my post came off as inflammatory, its just I cannot understand some of the decisions being made by this company from a monetary or player standpoint.

If models are not selling well its for a few reasons:

1. They look like gak.
2. They have terrible rules.
3. The models belong to an army that is not competitive.
4. Overpriced.

Therefore, would it not be in GW's best interest to make each army as balanced/competitive as possible? That way all units have appeal/their niche & you have just eliminated 50% of the reasons people aren't buying said models.

Do we know who is running GW or if there is anyone within their design team that knows how to use the internet? They are losing so much money by not interacting with the community...

1. Subjective, though in a sales standpoint, you have some ground.

2. True, though if you take the game out of a competitive setting, many of the issues are mitigated, and when you remember that the bulk of the population DON'T play competitively, this is mitigated quite a bit.

3. What? "well gak! Orks aren't competitive, feth these models!" If someone is strictly playing to bring the best models from the best army, then they will get over it as soon as the next FotM army is released .Again though, tournament/minmax/competitive players are NOT the majority of the players.

4. It's not. It's about the same price as any other similar hobby. Video games, Warmachine ('cause no one JUST buys what their army needs), and many other hobbies all sit at about 200-500 starting cost, and then 40-60 a month there after. It's perceived value that's different.

To re-attack these points (skipping #1, because it's opinion):

2. Someone on dakka (maybe it was blacksails, apologies I can't remember) made a post where he looked at how many people wargame based on surveys, and compared that to the numbers of subscribers to FLG, posters on dakka, etc. The conclusion was that by a conservative estimate "competitive gamers", i.e. those who attend follow the competitive scene and attend tournaments account for at least 20% of the gaming community. That's not a majority, but 1/5th of your sales is fairly significant.

3. If you go into a game expecting to lose every time and still spend 2.5-3 hrs on it plus prep, then good on you. However, in my experience most people quickly grow weary of games that are stacked against them from turn one. It's not even about being hyper competitive, some armies are simply better than others right from the start. And when most people make a $500-$1K investment in a game, and spend time carefully assembling and painting models they would like to play a game where their decisions matter otherwise they wouldn't be playing a "strategy" game. So a balanced game is better for everyone, not just tournament players.

4. Warhammer 40K operates on a scale large enough that their costs can prohibitive to new players, or those looking to expand. From a business standpoint, it would make more sense for GW to leverage their position and infrastructure to price their competitors out of business and increase their customer base. But for some reason, they don't.

I'm wondering if the removal of The Green Tide is pushback from the response to the Cadian Detachment.

We've had the Cadian Detachment for what, a month or two now? Around that? GW has a specific printer that they use for softback books(which Waagh! Ghazghkull is) and they've shown in the past that they can get print orders done up pretty damn fast when they need to(End Times: Khaine sold out of hardcovers quicker than any other End Times book and was switched to softcovers within a month or so).

Its not just a problem with Orks..its the game as a whole.

Assault is dead,,its been that way since overwatch was put in and just after that ,Tau "Happened" to the game...

40k is a game of "Shoot each other off the board" and armies that don't shoot so well don't play so well.

Simple as that.

Minijack wrote:
Its not just a problem with Orks..its the game as a whole.

Assault is dead,,its been that way since overwatch was put in and just after that ,Tau "Happened" to the game...

40k is a game of "Shoot each other off the board" and armies that don't shoot so well don't play so well.

Simple as that.

Well unless your melee has invisibility, then the game is broken towards assault....unfortunately not all assault armies can take invisibility....so no invisible orks...I guess we will settle for purple Kommandos.

Not sure if this had been addressed already, but the "Great WAAAGH!" rule doesn't specify that your warlord must be a Warboss. So, seems like you can have Ghazzy as your WL and have a constant 2+ invul and make the whole army fearless from turn 2 on. Is that correct?

shyzo wrote:
Not sure if this had been addressed already, but the "Great WAAAGH!" rule doesn't specify that your warlord must be a Warboss. So, seems like you can have Ghazzy as your WL and have a constant 2+ invul and make the whole army fearless from turn 2 on. Is that correct?

Nope, I had that idea in the other thread. The rule about multi-turn WAAAGHs states that the warlord must come from the detachment, and the only way to get Ghaz in that detachment is one of the formations, so the Council only.

So, you take the Council, make Ghaz your warlord, and there you have it, no?

 BoomWolf wrote:
Crazy idea here. Maybe we should wait to see the new formations rules before we judge them as unplayable?

They are unplayable.

I went through the book its just recycled garbage and worse yet they removed the greentide. Its gone. One of the 3 possible builds for competitive Orks was removed.

 Ravenous D wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Crazy idea here. Maybe we should wait to see the new formations rules before we judge them as unplayable?

They are unplayable.

I went through the book its just recycled garbage and worse yet they removed the greentide. Its gone. One of the 3 possible builds for competitive Orks was removed.

I don't understand why people still waste their money on 40k. I quit playing 6 months ago and I'm totally happy. The game isn't even half as good as it used to be.

 JimOnMars wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
Of course there's someone at the helm at gw and they're laughing all the way to the bank.

Are they?

General question to Dakanaut Ork players: Who is buying the the Ghaz book?

I would totally buy it, regardless of the rules, for the background and art---if I hadn't bought the hardcover one AND the Sanctus Reach books. $33 rulebooks are getting back to the right spot for GW and I'd like to encourage it, but not buying stuff that I've already bought.

shyzo wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Crazy idea here. Maybe we should wait to see the new formations rules before we judge them as unplayable?

They are unplayable.

I went through the book its just recycled garbage and worse yet they removed the greentide. Its gone. One of the 3 possible builds for competitive Orks was removed.

I don't understand why people still waste their money on 40k. I quit playing 6 months ago and I'm totally happy. The game isn't even half as good as it used to be.

Well considering all the signs are there that GW is going to move 40k into pointless formations (read, useless units) I don't think many will stay short of GWs true believers. The prices are already insane, the fact no one is batting an eye at a $200 boardgame with $5 worth of plastic is proof GWs depiction of its customers is accurate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Da Butcha wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

 usernamesareannoying wrote:
Of course there's someone at the helm at gw and they're laughing all the way to the bank.

Are they?

General question to Dakanaut Ork players: Who is buying the the Ghaz book?

I would totally buy it, regardless of the rules, for the background and art---if I hadn't bought the hardcover one AND the Sanctus Reach books. $33 rulebooks are getting back to the right spot for GW and I'd like to encourage it, but not buying stuff that I've already bought.

You don't get all the sanctus fluff, its just the formations.

 JimOnMars wrote:

General question to Dakanaut Ork players: Who is buying the the Ghaz book?

Those who got fooled with Pre-Order?

 koooaei wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:

General question to Dakanaut Ork players: Who is buying the the Ghaz book?

Those who got fooled with Pre-Order?

Pretty much. Sad to say that I was one of them. Lower price got me.

shyzo wrote:
So, you take the Council, make Ghaz your warlord, and there you have it, no?

Yes you can and you will have a great GHAZ army. Ghazz will get 2++ every turn and make the rest of your army fearless. This is the only reason this book exists if you ask me to build a good GHAZ army.
The only downside is that it is really expensive and that his council is kinda bad.

 JimOnMars wrote:
Nope. Green Tide is now illegal.

In the other thread, I suggested that Ork players call the support line: 1-800-394-4263.

I don't know if anybody actually called. I did, and got a real person who at least commiserated, and passed on the complaints to GW in England.

Will you PLEASE call!! A real ork would at least do that. We need all the help we can get.

To everyone saying that the green tide is illegal, this is INCORRECT.
I emailed both GW and black library complaining about the book and how I have physical copies of all the current rule sets and that this release was a terrible attempt at sales.
They responded saying that I do not have to buy the new waagh ghazghkull as there is only a few additions and correction as well as the new detachment, and that everything in the old books were still valid if you wanted to run them.
They wouldn't dare invalidate a previous detachment for this new one especially with how many people bought the supplement They just condensed the formations that they wanted to add in the orkurion and everything else has to be taken separately. They just didn't want to add it as a core or whatever it would have been in the orkurion.

It will be illegal in all tournaments that have an equivalent the following rule:

"Only use the most recent version of the book "

GW itself never invalidates rules tournaments and players do.

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Well, be honest. How much help do you think it'll do to complain to some minimum wage employee, who is probably located in india to boot, about how you don't like the new ork book? The guy on the other end of the line probably doesn't even know anything about the game and reads from a script anyways.

That is, assuming that british customer service hotlines work like American ones do.

Things may have changed, but I called them a couple of years ago with a rules question about Black Templars that ocurred to me literally 2 hours before a league game. The guy on the other end was definitely American, answered the question correctly and was phenomenally nice, even chatting about the army a little bit and was knowledgable about the game. The one thing there's never been an issue with is GW's customer service.

Minijack wrote:
Its not just a problem with Orks..its the game as a whole.

Assault is dead,,its been that way since overwatch was put in and just after that ,Tau "Happened" to the game...

Overwatch didn't kill assault, although the penalty-free benefit for sitting still and shooting is a bit maddening. No, the lack of assault transports and not being able to assault after deepstriking or scouting/infiltrating killed assault. Also Tau, you nailed it on that one

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

Minijack wrote:
Its not just a problem with Orks..its the game as a whole.

Assault is dead,,its been that way since overwatch was put in and just after that ,Tau "Happened" to the game...

Overwatch didn't kill assault, although the penalty-free benefit for sitting still and shooting is a bit maddening. No, the lack of assault transports and not being able to assault after deepstriking or scouting/infiltrating killed assault. Also Tau, you nailed it on that one

For assault, you need dedicated assault units that are fast, pump out attacks preferably at ap3 or better, although a bunch of attacks at a high enough strength can overcome lack of ap.

Overwatch, challenges and casualties from the front didn't help mind.

 greyknight12 wrote:
3. If you go into a game expecting to lose every time and still spend 2.5-3 hrs on it plus prep, then good on you. However, in my experience most people quickly grow weary of games that are stacked against them from turn one. It's not even about being hyper competitive, some armies are simply better than others right from the start. And when most people make a $500-$1K investment in a game, and spend time carefully assembling and painting models they would like to play a game where their decisions matter otherwise they wouldn't be playing a "strategy" game. So a balanced game is better for everyone, not just tournament players.

Thank you, finally someone who gets it. I've been saying for years, you don't have to be WAAC to want your army to at least be competitive. I shouldn't have to ask people to make specific lists because of the army I play. I honestly don't know anyone that goes into a game and doesn't care how badly they do. I don't care if I lose, I do care if I never had a chance.

I have to agree the fact you can't assault out of vehicles or deepstrike killed assault dead.

A turn getting shot followed by overwatch leaves too few bodies to assault successfully.

mhalko1 wrote:

 JimOnMars wrote:
Nope. Green Tide is now illegal.

In the other thread, I suggested that Ork players call the support line: 1-800-394-4263.

I don't know if anybody actually called. I did, and got a real person who at least commiserated, and passed on the complaints to GW in England.

Will you PLEASE call!! A real ork would at least do that. We need all the help we can get.

To everyone saying that the green tide is illegal, this is INCORRECT.
I emailed both GW and black library complaining about the book and how I have physical copies of all the current rule sets and that this release was a terrible attempt at sales.
They responded saying that I do not have to buy the new waagh ghazghkull as there is only a few additions and correction as well as the new detachment, and that everything in the old books were still valid if you wanted to run them.
They wouldn't dare invalidate a previous detachment for this new one especially with how many people bought the supplement They just condensed the formations that they wanted to add in the orkurion and everything else has to be taken separately. They just didn't want to add it as a core or whatever it would have been in the orkurion.

Will they faq it? Cause there is no trust in phone-calling gw about rules. They always answer different things.