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Hey all, not really sure if this is the right place to be posting this.. But, I have a question about some Warhammer 40k rules and require some clarification.

Okay so the dilemma is, a friend of mine and I are having an unbound Chaos vs Eldar battle. With the average set up as 1 HQ, 2 troop, blah blah, but as 2500 points a side..
He is running the Chaos army and says that his Kharn the betrayer always hits on a +2 in close combat (due to poison?).
I am running an Eldar Revenant titan, which is only hit on 6's for close combat (+5's for Gargantuan Creatures.) and would like to know how to resolve this?

Does the Revenant get hit on his +2? Or does his +2 have to step it up to +6 to match the Revenants hit only on +6's?

Or maybe I have something completely wrong and/or missing something entirely altogether?

Thanks to any and all replies.

I may be missing something, but where in which rule book does the Revenant only get hit on 6's in CC?

@ SilverMK2 - Its a special rule it has called Wraith Titan

Anyway as for OP's conundrum there is no real answer. You can't do both at the same time, both an equal yet different effect (Kharn's isn't poison) and both are special codex rules so neither take priority over the other.

The only options you can do are let the turn player decide (though that clause is for when to events are tying to happen at the same time and this case isn't really applicable). Or you just dice off and see what happens.

Flameh0t wrote:

He is running the Chaos army and says that his Kharn the betrayer always hits on a +2 in close combat (due to poison?).

Poison would be wounding, not hitting. Kharn always hits on 2+ because he is a badass. And re-rolls on the charge, due to Hatred.

You might be thinking of the Unstoppable rule for gargantuan creatures?

UNSTOPPABLE
Any attack that normally inflicts Instant Death or says that the target model is removed
from play inflicts D3 Wounds on a Gargantuan Creature or Flying Gargantuan Creature
instead.
In addition, attacks with the Sniper special rule only cause a Wound on a roll of a 6.
Attacks with the Poisoned special rule only cause a Wound on a roll of a 6 (unless the
attack’s Strength would cause a Wound on a lower result).

That wouldn't apply, because Kharn's attacks aren't poisoned.

Edit - never mind, CrownAxe knew the special rule for the Titan...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd be inclined to follow the rule for the titan, on reading it. "Can only be hit on a 6 regardless of weapon skill or other considerations" sounds like it would override Kharn's Gorechild rule.

 CrownAxe wrote:
@ SilverMK2 - Its a special rule it has called Wraith Titan

I guess my Apoc book must be out of date...

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I may be missing something, but where in which rule book does the Revenant only get hit on 6's in CC?

Hmm.. Pretty sure that it was introduced in the same book as where the Revenant was updated and given the heavy 4 S8 AP3 skyfire, interceptor, sunder “Cloudstrike” missile system, wasn't it? Whatever book that's in? The Doom of Mymeara, maybe?

Flameh0t wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I may be missing something, but where in which rule book does the Revenant only get hit on 6's in CC?

Hmm.. Pretty sure that it was introduced in the same book as where the Revenant was updated and given the heavy 4 S8 AP3 skyfire, interceptor, sunder “Cloudstrike” missile system, wasn't it? Whatever book that's in? The Doom of Mymeara, maybe?

SilverMK2 is probably referencing GW's Apocalypse book because their are unit entrys for a couple titans that FW produces models for such as the Revenant.

The most recent rules are in Doom of Mymera 2ed which does have the Wraith Titan rule

 CrownAxe wrote:
@ SilverMK2 - Its a special rule it has called Wraith Titan

Anyway as for OP's conundrum there is no real answer. You can't do both at the same time, both an equal yet different effect (Kharn's isn't poison) and both are special codex rules so neither take priority over the other.

The only options you can do are let the turn player decide (though that clause is for when to events are tying to happen at the same time and this case isn't really applicable). Or you just dice off and see what happens.

Unfortunately, this seems the most correct way. As absurd as it may seem, you'll be hitting on 2-s and 6-s depending on the turn.

What is the exact wording of the Titan's rule, if I may inquire?

It was given above

"other considerations" would include Kharns rule, and so this rule is more specific.

koooaei wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
@ SilverMK2 - Its a special rule it has called Wraith Titan

Anyway as for OP's conundrum there is no real answer. You can't do both at the same time, both an equal yet different effect (Kharn's isn't poison) and both are special codex rules so neither take priority over the other.

The only options you can do are let the turn player decide (though that clause is for when to events are tying to happen at the same time and this case isn't really applicable). Or you just dice off and see what happens.

Unfortunately, this seems the most correct way. As absurd as it may seem, you'll be hitting on 2-s and 6-s depending on the turn.

No. Sequencing comes into play when two rules both must be resolved, at the same time. It is not for resolving which rule takes priority and overrides another rule.

Sequencing results in both rules being resolved, one after the other, depending on the choice of the player whose turn it is. You cannot invoke Sequencing in this scenario because it is a matter of which rule applies, not which goes first.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It was given above

"other considerations" would include Kharns rule, and so this rule is more specific.

It's not really a matter of specificity, but yes, the Wraith Titan rule pretty clearly states, "...regardless of Weapon Skill or other considerations."

"Can only be hit on a 6 regardless of weapon skill or other considerations."

...

"...or other considerations."

The Revenant Titan can only be hit on a 6 regardless of the who is attacking and what special rules they have. These are both considerations. The Wraith Titan rule clearly overrides any other rules present as.

So to avoid making a similar thread, since this seems resolved and I only got the question now, what if Kharn comes up against an invisible unit? Is it then a case of codex > BRB, therefore Kharn still hits on 2+?

Yes, Kharns rule is then more specific again.

 Kriswall wrote:
"Can only be hit on a 6 regardless of weapon skill or other considerations."

...

"...or other considerations."

The Revenant Titan can only be hit on a 6 regardless of the who is attacking and what special rules they have. These are both considerations. The Wraith Titan rule clearly overrides any other rules present as.

Isn't "regardless of weapon skill or other considerations" a little redundant? Couldn't it be argued that the author of Kharn's rules thought that saying, "Kharn's melee attacks always hit on a 2+" was sufficient without being wordy?

Poeple seems to forget that Kharn doesn't have any considerations for anything, so he always Hit on 2+.

Plus the wording is also very clear and definite to me " HE ALWAYS HITS ON 2+"

And if you're asking yourself how in the hell a foot model can defeat a towering giant machine, read Betrayer again please, he hacks his way inside it and kill the pilot, he's a simple man, with a simple plan, for simple situations.

Absolutes are overrode in 40k on a fairly consistent basis. The Wraith rule is more specific.

Isn't the wraith 5+ rule a cover save which is not applicable in close combat?

The Wraith Titan rule has been given above.

Btw OP, for clarity +2 refers to a modifier (i.e. plus two, meaning add two the result), 2+ refers to a dice roll (two plus, i.e. a roll of two or more).

It may seem pedantic, but is important to distinguish between these two notations as they have different meanings but are used in similar contexts.

Always vs Regardless... This is a bit of an immovable object vs unstoppable force situation. Read As Written answer (RAW everything from 2-5 seems to be both always a hit as per kharn and not a hit as per titan :S).

I would evoke the mechanic from rerolls, which suggests that when a dice needs to reroll all hits and reroll all misses you just ignore the reroll special rules as they cancel out. My suggestion then, is to ignore both rules, so just have kharn roll to hit against the titan with the WS chart. Note, this is my fudge solution, not anything based on the rules.

Most important rule says do what you think is right and if you can't agree roll off to choose an interpretation for this battle.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Poeple seems to forget that Kharn doesn't have any considerations for anything, so he always Hit on 2+.

That exact rule that lets him hit on a 2+ would be included in the "Other considerations" part of the Titan rules.

okay sorry, been doing some searching around. I still don't think the full rules for the titan holofield have been put forth here. My google-fu found this: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t13096-new-ia-s-revenant-titan-rules

had a screenshot posted of the revenant titan holofield rules from 2015. Says the holo field effects happen after hits but before armour penetration. If that link is accurate, then there is no conflict at all. Karn's rules always hit on the 2+, but before penetration rules are rolled the titan holofield may nullify some of the hits.

 disdamn wrote:
okay sorry, been doing some searching around. I still don't think the full rules for the titan holofield have been put forth here. My google-fu found this: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t13096-new-ia-s-revenant-titan-rules

had a screenshot posted of the revenant titan holofield rules from 2015. Says the holo field effects happen after hits but before armour penetration. If that link is accurate, then there is no conflict at all. Karn's rules always hit on the 2+, but before penetration rules are rolled the titan holofield may nullify some of the hits.

Its not the 'Eldar Titan Holo-fields' rule being discussed. Read the 'Wraith Titan' rule.

 disdamn wrote:
okay sorry, been doing some searching around. I still don't think the full rules for the titan holofield have been put forth here. My google-fu found this: http://www.thedarkcity.net/t13096-new-ia-s-revenant-titan-rules

had a screenshot posted of the revenant titan holofield rules from 2015. Says the holo field effects happen after hits but before armour penetration. If that link is accurate, then there is no conflict at all. Karn's rules always hit on the 2+, but before penetration rules are rolled the titan holofield may nullify some of the hits.

Again. We're talking about the WRAITH TITAN rule. Not the Titan holo field rule. The full text of the relevant rule has been given. Please discuss the correct rule please.

KHARN! Wins. Plain old always means always. Also nothing gets more specific rules than a special character as there is only one in existence.

Kharn is another consideration.

Absolutes get overwritten in 40k rules all the time.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Kharn is another consideration.
.

Like i said, Kharn as no consideration or feths to give about anything.

How can you consider someone who doesn't have any considerations to consider?

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Kharn is another consideration.
.

Like i said, Kharn as no consideration or feths to give about anything.

How can you consider someone who doesn't have any considerations to consider?

Nice and fluffy, but sadly not the rules.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Kharn is another consideration.
.

Like i said, Kharn as no consideration or feths to give about anything.

How can you consider someone who doesn't have any considerations to consider?

Kharn has a rule that makes him hit on a 2+...

That rule is a consideration and would be trumped by the titan rule about only being hit on a 6...

Dude..., sarcasme..., have you heard of it?